WHIRLING DEFENSE should be moving skill and not a "Sitting Duck"

[aceofbass.2163]

The problem is 2 of the posters here are taking WD as an offensive skill(while sure it can be used as that) but it's mostly a use as a defense skill on a defensive kit~offhand ranger axe and all the while comparing it to an offensive skill like WA on an offensive kit~offhand warrior axe

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@aceofbass.2163 said:The problem is 2 of the posters here are taking WD as an offensive skill(while sure it can be used as that) but it's mostly a use as a defense skill on a defensive kit~offhand ranger axe and all the while comparing it to an offensive skill like WA on an offensive kit~offhand warrior axe

We are talking about WD as an offensive skill because it is an offensive skill.Offensive:

1. Damage 12x (it is one of the highest damage skill on ranger)
2. Vulnerability (10sec) : 12% incoming damage (power and condition)
3. Numbers of target : 3
4. Attack radius: 180

Defensive:

1. Retaliation (5sec) (Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits the affected target. The attacker will not be damaged if the attack fails to hit. Retaliation does not reduce or prevent damage taken.) so basically this skill it is an offensive one too, because doesn't reduce or prevent the damage you take ... only make enemies to stop their attacks if they don't want to be damaged by their hits ...
2. Reflection radius: 150 (lower than Attack radius)

Now, can you tell me please, why should we see WD and defensive skill, when everything it gives us, are offensive things?Thank you!

Now, I think you understand why I am upset because we have a rooted offensive skill.

[Kodama.6453]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:The problem is 2 of the posters here are taking WD as an offensive skill(while sure it can be used as that) but it's mostly a use as a defense skill on a defensive kit~offhand ranger axe and all the while comparing it to an offensive skill like WA on an offensive kit~offhand warrior axe

We are talking about WD as an offensive skill because it is an offensive skill.Offensive:

1. Damage 12x (it is one of the highest damage skill on ranger)
2. Vulnerability (10sec) : 12% incoming damage (power and condition)
3. Numbers of target : 3
4. Attack radius: 180

Defensive:

1. Retaliation (5sec) (Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits the affected target. The attacker will not be damaged if the attack fails to hit. Retaliation does not reduce or prevent damage taken.) so basically this skill it is an offensive one too, because doesn't reduce or prevent the damage you take ... only make enemies to stop their attacks if they don't want to be damaged by their hits ...
2. Reflection radius: 150 (lower than Attack radius)

Now, can you tell me please, why should we see WD and defensive skill, when everything it gives us, are offensive things?Thank you!

Now, I think you understand why I am upset because we have a rooted offensive skill.

Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.Warriors can't move during Hundred Blades. Thieves can't move during Pistol Whip. I think it is reasonable to ask for the coefficient to be nerfed at least if you want this skill to become mobile.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Kodama.6453 said:Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.Warriors can't move during Hundred Blades. Thieves can't move during Pistol Whip. I think it is reasonable to ask for the coefficient to be nerfed at least if you want this skill to become mobile.

So you dare to compare 8 sec CD skill with 25 sec CD skill? Or a skill who consume 5 initiative and has a 3/4 casting time with 3 1/4 casting time? Did you check the numbers before saying something? If you read carefully, you'll see that we talk and try to compare the similar skills, with almost the same amount of damage, almost the same radius, almost the same casting time ... WA and WD. Even WA has only 15 sec CD and WD 25 sec CD.Ofc there are more rooted skills in this game, rangers have also Barrage, but this is totally different, it is a range skill, you can leave it without using a dodge or swap weapon ... If you read all the comments here, you will see that we try to compare apple with apple and not apple with a pear.

PS: we said already that we agree to diminish the coefficient but make it movable skill. pls, don't post something before reading all the content. cheers!

[Kodama.6453]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@"Kodama.6453" said:Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.Warriors can't move during Hundred Blades. Thieves can't move during Pistol Whip. I think it is reasonable to ask for the coefficient to be nerfed at least if you want this skill to become mobile.

So you dare to compare 8 sec CD skill with 25 sec CD skill? Or a skill who consume 5 initiative and has a 3/4 casting time with 3 1/4 casting time? Did you check the numbers before saying something? If you read carefully, you'll see that we talk and try to compare the similar skills, with almost the same amount of damage, almost the same radius, almost the same casting time ... WA and WD. Even WA has only 15 sec CD and WD 25 sec CD.Ofc there are more rooted skills in this game, rangers have also Barrage, but this is totally different, it is a range skill, you can leave it without using a dodge or swap weapon ... If you read all the comments here, you will see that we try to compare apple with apple and not apple with a pear.

PS: we said already that we agree to diminish the coefficient but make it movable skill. pls, don't post something before reading all the content. cheers!

It's almost amusing how much of a tantrum you throw here over something like this.But I'll bite: The whole and entire discussion here is absolutely comparing "apple with a pear", since what you try to do here is comparing skills of different classes.

Even if WA and WD seem alike, they are skill on 2 different archetypes with very different tools they can work with. Just because it is fine for one of them to have this skill moving does not necessarily mean that the other skill will be fine, too. Not to mention that they are not even as similar as you make them look like, since there is still the reflect (which you actually don't seem to understand how it works, you said that an enemy will not take damage from the reflected shot if he stays farther away than 150.... you probably should look into that again) and retaliation.

Your entire attitude in this thread is completely toxic, you should work on that, since it tends to make people not take you serious, if you are not able to discuss like a decent human being.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.Warriors can't move during Hundred Blades. Thieves can't move during Pistol Whip. I think it is reasonable to ask for the coefficient to be nerfed at least if you want this skill to become mobile.

So you dare to compare 8 sec CD skill with 25 sec CD skill? Or a skill who consume 5 initiative and has a 3/4 casting time with 3 1/4 casting time? Did you check the numbers before saying something? If you read carefully, you'll see that we talk and try to compare the similar skills, with almost the same amount of damage, almost the same radius, almost the same casting time ... WA and WD. Even WA has only 15 sec CD and WD 25 sec CD.Ofc there are more rooted skills in this game, rangers have also Barrage, but this is totally different, it is a range skill, you can leave it without using a dodge or swap weapon ... If you read all the comments here, you will see that we try to compare apple with apple and not apple with a pear.

PS: we said already that we agree to diminish the coefficient but make it movable skill. pls, don't post something before reading all the content. cheers!

It's almost amusing how much of a tantrum you throw here over something like this.But I'll bite: The whole and entire discussion here is absolutely comparing "apple with a pear", since what you try to do here is comparing skills of different classes.

Even if WA and WD seem alike, they are skill on 2 different archetypes with very different tools they can work with. Just because it is fine for one of them to have this skill moving does not necessarily mean that the other skill will be fine, too. Not to mention that they are not even as similar as you make them look like, since there is still the reflect (which you actually don't seem to understand how it works, you said that an enemy will not take damage from the reflected shot if he stays farther away than 150.... you probably should look into that again) and retaliation.

Your entire attitude in this thread is completely toxic, you should work on that, since it tends to make people not take you serious, if you are not able to discuss like a decent human being.

1: can you tell me when or where did I offended you?2: can you tell me please what are those 2 different archetypes?3:

Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.

so, you say that this skill is a defensive one? or more a defensive than an offensive one?4: nobody said that definitely, WD moving it will work, I said only, in my opinion, it will be better and I still believe this.5: I think I am a decent human being, more than you, anyway ...

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.Warriors can't move during Hundred Blades. Thieves can't move during Pistol Whip. I think it is reasonable to ask for the coefficient to be nerfed at least if you want this skill to become mobile.

So you dare to compare 8 sec CD skill with 25 sec CD skill? Or a skill who consume 5 initiative and has a 3/4 casting time with 3 1/4 casting time? Did you check the numbers before saying something? If you read carefully, you'll see that we talk and try to compare the similar skills, with almost the same amount of damage, almost the same radius, almost the same casting time ... WA and WD. Even WA has only 15 sec CD and WD 25 sec CD.Ofc there are more rooted skills in this game, rangers have also Barrage, but this is totally different, it is a range skill, you can leave it without using a dodge or swap weapon ... If you read all the comments here, you will see that we try to compare apple with apple and not apple with a pear.

PS: we said already that we agree to diminish the coefficient but make it movable skill. pls, don't post something before reading all the content. cheers!

It's almost amusing how much of a tantrum you throw here over something like this.But I'll bite: The whole and entire discussion here is absolutely comparing "apple with a pear", since what you try to do here is comparing skills of different classes.

Even if WA and WD seem alike, they are skill on 2 different archetypes with very different tools they can work with. Just because it is fine for one of them to have this skill moving does not necessarily mean that the other skill will be fine, too. Not to mention that they are not even as similar as you make them look like, since there is still the reflect (which you actually don't seem to understand how it works, you said that an enemy will not take damage from the reflected shot if he stays farther away than 150.... you probably should look into that again) and retaliation.

Your entire attitude in this thread is completely toxic, you should work on that, since it tends to make people not take you serious, if you are not able to discuss like a decent human being.

1: can you tell me when or where did I offended you?2: can you tell me please what are those 2 different archetypes?3:

Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.

so, you say that this skill is a defensive one? or more a defensive than an offensive one?4: nobody said that definitely, WD moving it will work, I said only, in my opinion, it will be better and I still believe this.5: I think I am a decent human being, more than you, anyway ...

Dude chill, its a dispute not a medieval pillory event. Its nothing wrong in having a different opinion than others so keep it civil and stop insulting anyone (this accounts for anyone not just you).

I have to agree that WD is an area denial, thus more a defensive tool, but i think the mobility would be a utility tool to move this area and nit to dmg foes.

Atm its only used to cleave down bodies and prevent any engagement from others. One blink away and you waisted a skill.

Id say remove the vuln and retal. Reduce the dmg so its dmg is relative the same to WA in PvP as it is in PvE.Movement is now allowed.

Sbeast itself would need a shave and i think the E-spec is way to overtuned for power and needs adjustements to perform equally with condi. Shave down power and improve condi (for PvP that is, although i would be happy with all game modes, especially PvE).

[aceofbass.2163]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@aceofbass.2163 said:The problem is 2 of the posters here are taking WD as an offensive skill(while sure it can be used as that) but it's mostly a use as a defense skill on a defensive kit~offhand ranger axe and all the while comparing it to an offensive skill like WA on an offensive kit~offhand warrior axe

We are talking about WD as an offensive skill because it is an offensive skill.Offensive:

1. Damage 12x (it is one of the highest damage skill on ranger)
2. Vulnerability (10sec) : 12% incoming damage (power and condition)
3. Numbers of target : 3
4. Attack radius: 180

Defensive:

1. Retaliation (5sec) (Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits the affected target. The attacker will not be damaged if the attack fails to hit. Retaliation does not reduce or prevent damage taken.) so basically this skill it is an offensive one too, because doesn't reduce or prevent the damage you take ... only make enemies to stop their attacks if they don't want to be damaged by their hits ...
2. Reflection radius: 150 (lower than Attack radius)

Now, can you tell me please, why should we see WD and defensive skill, when everything it gives us, are offensive things?Thank you!

Now, I think you understand why I am upset because we have a rooted offensive skill.

You forgot it's primary function: to block projectiles. Also, FYI retaliation is and always has been a defensive boon in a way that it's a deterrent for your enemies to hit you.This line here is really the most childish and hilarious reasoning I have ever encountered:

Retaliation does not reduce or prevent damage taken.) so basically this skill it is an offensive one too, because doesn't reduce or prevent the damage you take.

Even the way WD by design is defensive as it blocks projectiles so enemies are likely to go melee but then if they melee they get damaged by it's damage + the retal damage.Plus:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:

@OGDeadHead.8326 said:

@DeceiverX.8361 said:7.92 + retal + vuln + projectile reflect + whirl on a 360 degree AoE at 180 radius that's mobile is massively overloaded on a single skill for an offhand weapon and you're delusional if you think it isn't.

Hell, the skill is called whirling DEFENSE. It's supposed to function as a zoning tool for area denial, not some kind of mega-nuke ability that kills everything nearby.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:

@Dragonzhunter.8506 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.Warriors can't move during Hundred Blades. Thieves can't move during Pistol Whip. I think it is reasonable to ask for the coefficient to be nerfed at least if you want this skill to become mobile.

So you dare to compare 8 sec CD skill with 25 sec CD skill? Or a skill who consume 5 initiative and has a 3/4 casting time with 3 1/4 casting time? Did you check the numbers before saying something? If you read carefully, you'll see that we talk and try to compare the similar skills, with almost the same amount of damage, almost the same radius, almost the same casting time ... WA and WD. Even WA has only 15 sec CD and WD 25 sec CD.Ofc there are more rooted skills in this game, rangers have also Barrage, but this is totally different, it is a range skill, you can leave it without using a dodge or swap weapon ... If you read all the comments here, you will see that we try to compare apple with apple and not apple with a pear.

PS: we said already that we agree to diminish the coefficient but make it movable skill. pls, don't post something before reading all the content. cheers!

It's almost amusing how much of a tantrum you throw here over something like this.But I'll bite: The whole and entire discussion here is absolutely comparing "apple with a pear", since what you try to do here is comparing skills of different classes.

Even if WA and WD seem alike, they are skill on 2 different archetypes with very different tools they can work with. Just because it is fine for one of them to have this skill moving does not necessarily mean that the other skill will be fine, too. Not to mention that they are not even as similar as you make them look like, since there is still the reflect (which you actually don't seem to understand how it works, you said that an enemy will not take damage from the reflected shot if he stays farther away than 150.... you probably should look into that again) and retaliation.

Your entire attitude in this thread is completely toxic, you should work on that, since it tends to make people not take you serious, if you are not able to discuss like a decent human being.

1: can you tell me when or where did I offended you?2: can you tell me please what are those 2 different archetypes?3:

Even if you see it as an offensive skill, it's not like a rooted offensive skill is something unseen in this game.

so, you say that this skill is a defensive one? or more a defensive than an offensive one?4: nobody said that definitely, WD moving it will work, I said only, in my opinion, it will be better and I still believe this.5: I think I am a decent human being, more than you, anyway ...

Dude chill, its a dispute not a medieval pillory event. Its nothing wrong in having a different opinion than others so keep it civil and stop insulting anyone (this accounts for anyone not just you).

When and what were the words I insulted @Kodama.6453?

@"aceofbass.2163" said:This line here is really the most childish and hilarious reasoning I have ever encountered:

Retaliation does not reduce or prevent damage taken.) so basically this skill it is an offensive one too, because doesn't reduce or prevent the damage you take.

This is the description of Retaliation:https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation"Retaliation is a boon that damages anyone who hits the affected target. The attacker will not be damaged if the attack fails to hit. Retaliation does not reduce or prevent damage taken."If a skill does not reduce or prevent damage taken but instead reflect damage to the source ... Yes, in my opinion, this action could be called offensive and not defensive, because you still get damage and in the same time you do damage ...Why do you find this childish?

[InsaneQR.7412]

@"Dragonzhunter.8506""I think I am a decent human being, more than you, anyway ..."Thats somewhat if an insult thus i said keep it civil.

And the point you recently said that retaliation is offensive: it incentivises your opponent not to hit you, thus it can be called defensive. Projectile reflection is defensive, denying an area is somewhat of defensive in an aggressive way. Its a skill that has characteristics of both, but its used mainly as a defensive tool in PvP as far as i have seen.Its offensively used in PvE. WvW i have no clue how honestly.

Movement just would give it some utility and reducing its dmg and removing marginal effects would do the trick to balance this out.

[anduriell.6280]

Either way we are forgetting ranger was designed as mobile archer class where positioning is very important.

Although with the passing of years Anet changed the description in the Website, they didnt really change how the ranger plays and the skills hasn't seen real changes, so still you can feel how that statement is true at this time.

As such static skills like WD or the changes to spirits do feel clunky and "out of place". That's why i agree WD would need to be mobile, even if its at a reduced pace, and there is not need to nerf or change anything else in the skill.

Problem is the animation would need to be rework and that would be an investment. Which idk if the devs are whiling to do.

[Curennos.9307]

Pairs nicely with One Wolf Pack (+quickness if you have it). Currently, I find the skill well balanced - it just happens to be a tad weaker than the ridiculously strong everything else on metabuilds. Doesn't mean it needs massive buffs.

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:@"Dragonzhunter.8506""I think I am a decent human being, more than you, anyway ..."Thats somewhat if an insult thus i said keep it civil.

@InsaneQR.7412 , that was a response of @"Kodama.6453" "... if you are not able to discuss like a decent human being."

And the point you recently said that retaliation is offensive: it incentivises your opponent not to hit you, thus it can be called defensive. Projectile reflection is defensive, denying an area is somewhat of defensive in an aggressive way. Its a skill that has characteristics of both, but its used mainly as a defensive tool in PvP as far as i have seen.Its offensively used in PvE. WvW i have no clue how honestly.

Movement just would give it some utility and reducing its dmg and removing marginal effects would do the trick to balance this out.

Yes, the fact it makes my opponent to not hit me can be called defensive, but usually this skill it is used for his huge amount of damage, that's why from my POV it is more offensive than defensive.

[Kain Francois.4328]

I don't think it should be movable. I really don't. That's like saying 100b should be movable. The sheer fact it's not movable is what allows it to be so great in PvE in the first place.

Instead, I think the defensive nature of it should by improved. It's called Whirling Defense, duh! You're supposed to use it to contest a capture point.

It's very solid as anti-projectile, but the problem is that you are still susceptible to melee and non-projectile ranged attacks. To address those weaknesses, perhaps it could pulse 2 instances of Aegis on the user?

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Dragonzhunter.8506 yeah thats why i said that accounts for both sides.Whatever it is now a decent discussion again. So i keep my police hat at home ^^

[Revolution.5409]

@Kain Francois.4328 said:I don't think it should be movable. I really don't. That's like saying 100b should be movable. The sheer fact it's not movable is what allows it to be so great in PvE in the first place.

Instead, I think the defensive nature of it should by improved. It's called Whirling Defense, duh! You're supposed to use it to contest a capture point.

It's very solid as anti-projectile, but the problem is that you are still susceptible to melee and non-projectile ranged attacks. To address those weaknesses, perhaps it could pulse 2 instances of Aegis on the user?

Mobs like Itzel, followers of balthazar, mordrem not to mention bosses, game mechanics etc .. are creatures present in pve able to dodge and make this kind of skill useless, having a reworking of these rooted skills would make them even better in pve and not just in pvp

[Stajan.4581]

How to make WD better and is it an offensive or defensive skill. Well the answer to the second part is Yes. To the first part there is a couple of simple was to do this.1: Give Aguis, protection, and Retaliation boons also give the blur effect while in it. Blur can pulse and say 1 every 2 seconds2 Make it moveable? Yes make it moveable then it can be used to deflect projectiles and run away if need be, this does have the other side of allowing it to follow ppl, but with all the stealth and perma blacks and perma quickness and stuff out there this will not make WD over powered at all.3 If you do not want to go that way then make it a combo with one wolf pack that if, you use WD with one wolf pack every single hit prots OWP that way you are doubling the damage you do. Or OWP can do 100% the damage at its current stats when using WD. This would spill over to other rangers using WD if you have stance sharing going

The ranger has other issues other than SB and WD and the biggest one is the druid. Druid is by far the worst idea i have ever seen or played for a ranger. You take a class that is know for it DPS, condi bursts and is in a good place with that placement and you do what, make it a dedicated healer AKA a monk for GW1. Because of this the ranger as it use to be is dead like a door nail and the condi it use to do has gone. I remember the days when i was doing burning ticks for 25K while being a tank that no one wanted to attack because it would take a year to kill me. Now the rangers condi damage is crap the traps are crap and anet has killed the ranger becasue of the druid.

The druid should have gone and still can go to the guardian, and the dragon hunter should have and still can go to the ranger. Physical traps plus condi traps. and give them the ability to stack up to 2-3 of the same trap, using the ammo mechanic would be great. Putting trapper expertise as a master trait in skerm would be fantastic, cool down the recharge of traps by 50% but still only able to stack 2-3 of each would make for the trapper builds to come back and to be fun. Plus in PVP and WVW this would help so much with defense and make the ranger a class ppl would want to play more.

Even if they do not or can not change those 2 classes over, giving the traps and ammo and lowering the cool down with a master trait would make them fun again. But getting rid of the druid is something that needs to happen some how some way.

[Kodama.6453]

@Stajan.4581 said:How to make WD better and is it an offensive or defensive skill. Well the answer to the second part is Yes. To the first part there is a couple of simple was to do this.1: Give Aguis, protection, and Retaliation boons also give the blur effect while in it. Blur can pulse and say 1 every 2 seconds2 Make it moveable? Yes make it moveable then it can be used to deflect projectiles and run away if need be, this does have the other side of allowing it to follow ppl, but with all the stealth and perma blacks and perma quickness and stuff out there this will not make WD over powered at all.3 If you do not want to go that way then make it a combo with one wolf pack that if, you use WD with one wolf pack every single hit prots OWP that way you are doubling the damage you do. Or OWP can do 100% the damage at its current stats when using WD. This would spill over to other rangers using WD if you have stance sharing going

The ranger has other issues other than SB and WD and the biggest one is the druid. Druid is by far the worst idea i have ever seen or played for a ranger. You take a class that is know for it DPS, condi bursts and is in a good place with that placement and you do what, make it a dedicated healer AKA a monk for GW1. Because of this the ranger as it use to be is dead like a door nail and the condi it use to do has gone. I remember the days when i was doing burning ticks for 25K while being a tank that no one wanted to attack because it would take a year to kill me. Now the rangers condi damage is kitten the traps are kitten and anet has killed the ranger becasue of the druid.

The druid should have gone and still can go to the guardian, and the dragon hunter should have and still can go to the ranger. Physical traps plus condi traps. and give them the ability to stack up to 2-3 of the same trap, using the ammo mechanic would be great. Putting trapper expertise as a master trait in skerm would be fantastic, cool down the recharge of traps by 50% but still only able to stack 2-3 of each would make for the trapper builds to come back and to be fun. Plus in PVP and WVW this would help so much with defense and make the ranger a class ppl would want to play more.

Even if they do not or can not change those 2 classes over, giving the traps and ammo and lowering the cool down with a master trait would make them fun again. But getting rid of the druid is something that needs to happen some how some way.

Giving Dragon Hunter to Ranger and Druid to Guardian makes no sense at all.Elite specs are supposed to give us something that the core of the profession is lacking.

The Ranger didn't need any more ranged DPS, they already had that. What they needed was an option for proper team support. The same case for Necromancer, hence why they got the Scourge with PoF.Meanwhile classes like Guardian and Thief were missing ranged DPS options, so they got the Dragon Hunter and the Deadeye.

You don't make elite specs to give the class more of the same stuff they already have, you make them to give them new stuff to play with.

[Stajan.4581]

Dude are you crazy, The DD made the thief even more harder to hit and it had pistols yes they were not the longest of range but they did not need it with their bust crap. Giving the ranger made no sense, as a ranger I played Cel and guess what I was a support ranger and when druid first came out I was out healing the druids. So ranger was fine for support, if you made them the right way. Giving the guardian a bow I do nto care about it is the whole trap thing and the whole healing thing, guardians would have blended so well with the druid, and ranger with the DH. Every single class except Ranger and Guardian got a spec that, blended well with what they already had and did while Druid and DH changed the ranger and the guardian totally.

[Kodama.6453]

@Stajan.4581 said:Dude are you crazy, The DD made the thief even more harder to hit and it had pistols yes they were not the longest of range but they did not need it with their bust kitten. Giving the ranger made no sense, as a ranger I played Cel and guess what I was a support ranger and when druid first came out I was out healing the druids. So ranger was fine for support, if you made them the right way. Giving the guardian a bow I do nto care about it is the whole trap thing and the whole healing thing, guardians would have blended so well with the druid, and ranger with the DH. Every single class except Ranger and Guardian got a spec that, blended well with what they already had and did while Druid and DH changed the ranger and the guardian totally.

Outhealing druids... okay, you got me interested.Because outhealing a druid as base ranger is absolutely impossible. Druid has access to everything that ranger has. So the druid can use the stuff you are using for your support ranger, too, but has the celestial avatar and healing from staff (base ranger has no healing weapon available) on top of that.

Would like to see your support ranger build with which you were able to outheal something that has the same tools like you, but with tons of additional healing sources.

---

Daredevil made the thief harder to hit, right. Why was that? Daredevil kinda is supposed to be a defensive spec for thieves. It has blocks (thief doesn't have that), alot of hard CC, reflec. Additionally, it is granting alot of AoE damage to the thief.

You might not see it that way, but in the end that is what elite specs are supposed to do. Provide stuff that the base spec is lacking. Deal with it.

[Razor.9872]

Merge with smokescale while traited with Live Fast. Throw out Axe 4. Time your Worldy Impact so it lands right as the enemy is pulled to you. Immediately follow with Takedown (F1) into Whirling Defense. Can have either Dolyak Stance or "Strength of the Pack" for stability if you're worried about getting CC'd.

[anduriell.6280]

@"Razor.9872" said:Merge with smokescale while traited with Live Fast. Throw out Axe 4. Time your Worldy Impact so it lands right as the enemy is pulled to you. Immediately follow with Takedown (F1) into Whirling Defense. Can have either Dolyak Stance or "Strength of the Pack" for stability if you're worried about getting CC'd.

OMG i saw "i hit with the Path of Scars (Axe#4)" and I had to reread it because i thought i read it wrong.

[cryorion.9532]

If you want Whirling Defense unrooted, then I want reflect on Whirling Axe AND unrooted Hundreed Blades :)

[Dragonzhunter.8506]

@cryorion.9532 said:If you want Whirling Defense unrooted, then I want reflect on Whirling Axe AND unrooted Hundreed Blades :)

The damage done by WD and WA or Hundred Blades is almost the same, the big difference between WD and HB is the CD. You can't ask for the same thing when one of the skill has only 8s CD and the other one 25s CD (WA has almost half CD of WD too, only 15s). Basically, with HB you will do 3 times more damage than me with WD. I asked for a balance ... we mentioned already that for not be a root skill, WD should be nerfed a little bit, so it can compete with WA, not with HB, because HB is totally different.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@cryorion.9532 said:If you want Whirling Defense unrooted, then I want reflect on Whirling Axe AND unrooted Hundreed Blades :)

Moving HB is something i would welcome with open hands. WA does not need thw reflect though.WD should get a dmg shave so its dmg is relatively the same in PvP and WvW like they conpare now in PvE.Retal and vuln should be removed.Area denial AoE reflect with the possibility not being stomped by AoE. I like it.