The case for reverting the Mesmer phantasm rework.

Raizel.8175 · March 14, 2018

@"Master Ketsu.4569" said:The strangest and most confusing part of this rework though is how utterly unnecessary and unasked for it was. If the balance team wanted power mes to be more a thing in PvE, it would have made far more sense to just buff PvE greatsword damage instead of having the programming team waste their time working on a convoluted list of massive changes. Their time could have been better spent working on anything else. The thing about PvE balance is that regardless what PvE Raid players say, they really only care about DPS and clear times. This means mechanics can always be safely designed 100% with PvP in mind, and then damage can be edited in PvE separately. There is no need to create such a rift in the playerbase.
Now, the balance team could try to fix this by nerfing mesmer over and over and over again to make up for the inherently game breaking mechanics that this rework has introduced. But the thing is, that's bad. Mesmers don't deserve to be nerfed a million times just because of one poorly designed mechanic that wasn't even in the game until recently. This is one of those things where the balance team should really just swallow their pride, take a deep breath - and admit "We screwed up, we're sorry, this was a bad idea." Then revert it.

I want to be honest here: Mesmer needs to be nerfed especially in PvE to make other classes viable or - even better - real alternatives to Chrono. Chrono is just far too strong in this game. BTT: Yeah, the visual clutter is extremely annoying but at least we have thick healthbars now to tell us who the real Mesmer is, though even that isn't really a good solution to the problem.

shadowpass.4236 · March 14, 2018

@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

Do too much damage
Are too hard to hit
Have every boon permanently
Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.

It's really not that hard to understand. However, I'll break it down for you since it seems that you aren't able to grasp these simple concepts.

Too much damage relative to an average player's health pool. It's "too much" damage, when a single attack can hit you for half or more of your health. In this case, a single clone can hit anywhere from 8-18k. Ergo, it's "too much"

Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.

Again, simple concepts. You can time your attacks around a melee ranger's evades. However, as an example, if you were to time an attack around a Mirage's kit and manage to land a cc, a Mirage can still dodge during it, nullifying any potential damage that would've hit otherwise.

Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.

It's not a hyperbole. Several meta builds for mesmer easily allow the player to stack every boon in a fight indefinitely.

Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.

lol.

You say there aren't multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage. Then you proceed to mention multiple sources of "massive" damage.

Each Mind Wrack hits for 3-5k+ per illusion shattered. That's anywhere from 9-15k total with 3.
"Some of the new phantasms" is extremely general. In reality, there are MANY of these phantasms that hit extraordinarily hard. Hence, by grouping all of them up into one single overarching phrase, you try to give off the impression that there are way less than there actually are. Not to mention they can all be resummoned multiple times in quick succession.
Incorrect. The ability to deal massive amounts of damage is not widespread. Only a handful of other classes outside of mesmer even have access to numbers such as these. The most prominent example is a fresh air ele. I can't think of any other build/class that can hit so hard, so frequently, with such little tell.

I could go on regarding your previous post...

Go for it.

bravan.3876 · March 14, 2018

@Curunen.8729 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Ghos.1326 said:I think Mesmers having more than 3 clones (correct me if i'm wrong) is a bug. I thought that the limit of clones was limited to 3, and the shatter mechanic shatters them all. If this is the case, then what needs to happen, is when new clones are created from skills while the threshold has been reached, the old clones need to just disappear, and not be shatterable, in order to maintain the cap at 3. Again, please correct me if I am wrong, I don't actually play Mesmer so I am unsure of what the cap actually is or Mesmer clones.

Yes maximum clone limit is still 3, the problem is, that phantasm have no limit and don't count into the limit of clones anymore. So mesmer can have more than 3 Illusions up.

Possible solutions:

shortenting cast times of phantasms so they don't stay on the field too long (ie iWarlock beam duration) before turning into clones.
removing double izerker from Imagined Burden, replacing it with some other buff.
taking a long and careful look at how to adjust chronophantasma, signet of ether and F5 to minimise phantasm spam gameplay - perhaps with a cap on maximum number of phantasms out at any one time.

No phantasm just should count into the maximum of 3 illusions up rules angain and should get shattered also as phantasms, dmg on staff, sword offhand and utility phantasms need to be reduced, there is no reason to buff phantasms that much just because they become clones after first attack, no shattermes ever let phantasm live longer than one attack anyway since gamerelease. But shorting casttimes is also a good idea, like in addition.

Habitax.8124 · March 14, 2018

Most of you whiners have never played Mesmer obviously. At hands of a good player, yes they can be devastating but at the hands of a mediocre player, mesmers are pretty meh. If you can prove beyond a doubt that in the hands of a mediocre or sub-par skilled player that mesmer is still devastating, you would have a case. But the fact is, sub-par and mediocre players are not devastating on mesmer and therefore there is no case.

Curunen.8729 · March 14, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

Do too much damage
Are too hard to hit
Have every boon permanently
Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.

It's really not that hard to understand. However, I'll break it down for you since it seems that you aren't able to grasp these simple concepts.

Too much damage relative to an average player's health pool. It's "too much" damage, when a single attack can hit you for half or more of your health. In this case, a single clone can hit anywhere from 8-18k. Ie) It's "too much"

Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.

Again, simple concepts. You

can

time your attacks around a melee ranger's evades. However, as an example, if you were to time an attack around a Mirage's kit and manage to land a cc, a Mirage can still dodge during it, nullifying any potential damage that would've hit otherwise.

Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.

It's not a hyperbole. Several meta builds for mesmer easily allow the player to stack every boon in a fight indefinitely.

Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.

lol.

You say there aren't multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage. Then you proceed to mention multiple sources of "massive" damage.

Each Mind Wrack hits for 3-5k+ per illusion shattered. That's anywhere from 9-15k total with 3.
"Some of the new phantasms" is extremely general. In reality, there are MANY of these phantasms that hit extraordinarily hard. Hence, by grouping all of them up into one single overarching phrase, you try to give off the impression that there are way less than there actually are. Not to mention they can all be resummoned multiple times in quick succession.
Incorrect. The ability to deal massive amounts of damage is
not
widespread. Only a handful of other classes outside of mesmer even have access to numbers such as these. The most prominent example is a fresh air ele. I can't think of any other build/class that can hit so hard, so frequently, with such little tell.

I could go on regarding your previous post...

Go for it.

So yeah, just like most classes can deal "too much" damage. In which I've already stated that I would like to see the game move away from a 100-0 or die scenario. Mesmer is not unique in this aspect.
As said in other posts as well - I believe mirage's dodge will be changed to not function when cced in the future. Elusive Mind is getting nerfed in some way anyway. Chrono is fine in terms of evades as is core. Any other problem?
Show me a video or something of a mesmer maintaining every boon (every single one) for the entire duration of a fight, or at least most of it, especially given stripping/stealing/corruption.
Disenchanter and Defender are the only two that hit ridiculously hard in one go. I have agreed these should be nerfed. iZerker is easier to dodge but likewise I have already stated that Imagined Burden should get the second iZerker removed. iWarden is laughable, iMage has a slow windup and long cooldown, iDuelist is nothing special in pvp, iWarlock is fine in terms of damage output, and iSwordsman executes the same animation as blurred frenzy without the evade after a leap - ie walk out of it.Likewise I have stated that interactions with Chronophantasma, F5 and things like signet of ether should be looked at. This is all the case of a major mechanical change where balance will be iterated towards again.

Ah I see "with such little tell" - so it's more to do with no cast time for shatters then? At range there is plenty of tell unless stealthed. I have stated several times in the past I neither like nor agree with stealth/100-0 gameplay and think it is cheap/cheesy. Anticipating blink shatter in melee range is similar to anticipating steal+backstab - likewise neither is healthy from stealth, but that is a separate issue where stealth needs an overhaul/nerfing for the health of the game. But if you can see the mesmer coming then it is purely l2p regarding anticipation and knowing what most mesmers are most likely to do - which is often predictable.

Aside from that, I don't think I can be bothered to list the number of skills including auto attacks that deal high damage including crits greater or equal to those 3-5k mind wrack clone crits or other mesmer damage abilities (ie quickness rapid fire... here's your cue to complain about reflects). Phantasms aside, if you dodge the F1 then you've got at least 10s before windup for another burst (unless alacrity and shatter storm - the former means chrono so no mirage which means no split surge damage and no sword ambush mobility, the latter means Illusions traitline which means not taking either Domination or Duelling, sacrificing damage output). In that time the sustained damage output is not "massive".

shadowpass.4236 · March 14, 2018

@Habitax.8124 said:Most of you whiners have never played Mesmer obviously. At hands of a good player, yes they can be devastating but at the hands of a mediocre player, mesmers are pretty meh. If you can prove beyond a doubt that in the hands of a mediocre or sub-par skilled player that mesmer is still devastating, you would have a case. But the fact is, sub-par and mediocre players are not devastating on mesmer and therefore there is no case.

Ah so what you're saying is that... nothing is overpowered because bad players are bad?

Brilliant!

shadowpass.4236 · March 14, 2018

@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

Do too much damage
Are too hard to hit
Have every boon permanently
Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.

It's really not that hard to understand. However, I'll break it down for you since it seems that you aren't able to grasp these simple concepts.

Too much damage relative to an average player's health pool. It's "too much" damage, when a single attack can hit you for half or more of your health. In this case, a single clone can hit anywhere from 8-18k. Ie) It's "too much"

Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.

Again, simple concepts. You

can

time your attacks around a melee ranger's evades. However, as an example, if you were to time an attack around a Mirage's kit and manage to land a cc, a Mirage can still dodge during it, nullifying any potential damage that would've hit otherwise.

Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.

It's not a hyperbole. Several meta builds for mesmer easily allow the player to stack every boon in a fight indefinitely.

Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.

lol.

You say there aren't multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage. Then you proceed to mention multiple sources of "massive" damage.

Each Mind Wrack hits for 3-5k+ per illusion shattered. That's anywhere from 9-15k total with 3.
"Some of the new phantasms" is extremely general. In reality, there are MANY of these phantasms that hit extraordinarily hard. Hence, by grouping all of them up into one single overarching phrase, you try to give off the impression that there are way less than there actually are. Not to mention they can all be resummoned multiple times in quick succession.
Incorrect. The ability to deal massive amounts of damage is
not
widespread. Only a handful of other classes outside of mesmer even have access to numbers such as these. The most prominent example is a fresh air ele. I can't think of any other build/class that can hit so hard, so frequently, with such little tell.

I could go on regarding your previous post...

Go for it.

So yeah, just like most classes can deal "too much" damage. In which I've already stated that I would like to see the game move away from a 100-0 or die scenario. Mesmer is not unique in this aspect.
As said in other posts as well - I believe mirage's dodge will be changed to not function when cced in the future. Elusive Mind is getting nerfed in some way anyway. Chrono is fine in terms of evades as is core. Any other problem?
Show me a video or something of a mesmer maintaining every boon (every single one) for the entire duration of a fight, or at least most of it, especially given stripping/stealing/corruption.
Disenchanter and Defender are the only two that hit ridiculously hard in one go. I have agreed these should be nerfed. iZerker is easier to dodge but likewise I have already stated that Imagined Burden should get the second iZerker removed. iWarden is laughable, iMage has a slow windup and long cooldown, iDuelist is nothing special in pvp, iWarlock is fine in terms of damage output, and iSwordsman executes the same animation as blurred frenzy without the evade after a leap - ie walk out of it.Likewise I have stated that interactions with Chronophantasma, F5 and things like signet of ether should be looked at. This is all the case of a major mechanical change where balance will be iterated towards again.

Ah I see "with such little tell" - so it's more to do with no cast time for shatters then? At range there is plenty of tell unless stealthed. I have stated several times in the past I neither like nor agree with stealth/100-0 gameplay and think it is cheap/cheesy. Anticipating blink shatter in melee range is similar to anticipating steal+backstab - likewise neither is healthy from stealth, but that is a separate issue where stealth needs an overhaul/nerfing for the health of the game. But if you can see the mesmer coming then it is purely l2p regarding anticipation and knowing what most mesmers are most likely to do - which is often predictable.

Aside from that, I don't think I can be bothered to list the number of skills including auto attacks that deal high damage including crits greater or equal to those 3-5k mind wrack clone crits or other mesmer damage abilities (ie quickness rapid fire... here's your cue to complain about reflects). Phantasms aside, if you dodge the F1 then you've got at least 10s before windup for another burst (unless alacrity and shatter storm - the former means chrono so no mirage which means no split surge damage and no sword ambush mobility, the latter means Illusions traitline which means not taking either Domination or Duelling, sacrificing damage output). In that time the sustained damage output is not "massive".

You need to format your posts a little better or add a tldr.

I didn't read everything but if you're agreeing with what I'm saying then there's no point in arguing lol

Habitax.8124 · March 14, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Habitax.8124 said:Most of you whiners have never played Mesmer obviously. At hands of a good player, yes they can be devastating but at the hands of a mediocre player, mesmers are pretty meh. If you can prove beyond a doubt that in the hands of a mediocre or sub-par skilled player that mesmer is still devastating, you would have a case. But the fact is, sub-par and mediocre players are not devastating on mesmer and therefore there is no case.

Ah so what you're saying is that... nothing is overpowered because bad players are bad?

Brilliant!

Kind of .....What I am saying is that if a sub-par skill player can dominate all others with a class, then that class is OP. If mesmer is that devastating we would see a lot more FOTM and bandwagon players like we did when scourge first debut. All classes in the hands of skilled players have the potential to be good/great. Some classes have a little more advantage, sure mesmers could be one of those. It is like this, when scourge first came out a monkey could play it and kill skilled players. That is not the case with mesmer. I will re-iterate, in the hands of good/great players mesmer is devastating, but they are not a button mashing class by anymeans.

shadowpass.4236 · March 14, 2018

@Habitax.8124 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Habitax.8124 said:Most of you whiners have never played Mesmer obviously. At hands of a good player, yes they can be devastating but at the hands of a mediocre player, mesmers are pretty meh. If you can prove beyond a doubt that in the hands of a mediocre or sub-par skilled player that mesmer is still devastating, you would have a case. But the fact is, sub-par and mediocre players are not devastating on mesmer and therefore there is no case.

Ah so what you're saying is that... nothing is overpowered because bad players are bad?

Brilliant!

Kind of .....What I am saying is that if a sub-par skill player can dominate all others with a class, then that class is OP. If mesmer is that devastating we would see a lot more FOTM and bandwagon players like we did when scourge first debut. All classes in the hands of skilled players have the potential to be good/great. Some classes have a little more advantage, sure mesmers could be one of those. It is like this, when scourge first came out a monkey could play it and kill skilled players. That is not the case with mesmer. I will re-iterate, in the hands of good/great players mesmer is devastating, but they are not a button mashing class by anymeans.

Okay, I can see where you're coming from.

You also have to consider how balance at both ends of the spectrum interact. While an overpowered class may not be overpowered in the hands of a bad player, it is still overpowered. Even god tier players shouldn't be invincible/1 shotting players. No matter their personal skill level, builds have to be balanced around all fields of play.

Also, the difficulty of the combos/rotations shouldn't play a part in this discussion. A good player will be able to utilize their class fully no matter how difficult these are. And again, you can have a string of 100 buttons you need to press. It still shouldn't equate to god mode.

Curunen.8729 · March 14, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

Do too much damage
Are too hard to hit
Have every boon permanently
Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.

It's really not that hard to understand. However, I'll break it down for you since it seems that you aren't able to grasp these simple concepts.

Too much damage relative to an average player's health pool. It's "too much" damage, when a single attack can hit you for half or more of your health. In this case, a single clone can hit anywhere from 8-18k. Ie) It's "too much"

Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.

Again, simple concepts. You

can

time your attacks around a melee ranger's evades. However, as an example, if you were to time an attack around a Mirage's kit and manage to land a cc, a Mirage can still dodge during it, nullifying any potential damage that would've hit otherwise.

Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.

It's not a hyperbole. Several meta builds for mesmer easily allow the player to stack every boon in a fight indefinitely.

Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.

lol.

You say there aren't multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage. Then you proceed to mention multiple sources of "massive" damage.

Each Mind Wrack hits for 3-5k+ per illusion shattered. That's anywhere from 9-15k total with 3.
"Some of the new phantasms" is extremely general. In reality, there are MANY of these phantasms that hit extraordinarily hard. Hence, by grouping all of them up into one single overarching phrase, you try to give off the impression that there are way less than there actually are. Not to mention they can all be resummoned multiple times in quick succession.
Incorrect. The ability to deal massive amounts of damage is
not
widespread. Only a handful of other classes outside of mesmer even have access to numbers such as these. The most prominent example is a fresh air ele. I can't think of any other build/class that can hit so hard, so frequently, with such little tell.

I could go on regarding your previous post...

Go for it.

So yeah, just like most classes can deal "too much" damage. In which I've already stated that I would like to see the game move away from a 100-0 or die scenario. Mesmer is not unique in this aspect.
As said in other posts as well - I believe mirage's dodge will be changed to not function when cced in the future. Elusive Mind is getting nerfed in some way anyway. Chrono is fine in terms of evades as is core. Any other problem?
Show me a video or something of a mesmer maintaining every boon (every single one) for the entire duration of a fight, or at least most of it, especially given stripping/stealing/corruption.
Disenchanter and Defender are the only two that hit ridiculously hard in one go. I have agreed these should be nerfed. iZerker is easier to dodge but likewise I have already stated that Imagined Burden should get the second iZerker removed. iWarden is laughable, iMage has a slow windup and long cooldown, iDuelist is nothing special in pvp, iWarlock is fine in terms of damage output, and iSwordsman executes the same animation as blurred frenzy without the evade after a leap - ie walk out of it.Likewise I have stated that interactions with Chronophantasma, F5 and things like signet of ether should be looked at. This is all the case of a major mechanical change where balance will be iterated towards again.

Ah I see "with such little tell" - so it's more to do with no cast time for shatters then? At range there is plenty of tell unless stealthed. I have stated several times in the past I neither like nor agree with stealth/100-0 gameplay and think it is cheap/cheesy. Anticipating blink shatter in melee range is similar to anticipating steal+backstab - likewise neither is healthy from stealth, but that is a separate issue where stealth needs an overhaul/nerfing for the health of the game. But if you can see the mesmer coming then it is purely l2p regarding anticipation and knowing what most mesmers are most likely to do - which is often predictable.

Aside from that, I don't think I can be bothered to list the number of skills including auto attacks that deal high damage including crits greater or equal to those 3-5k mind wrack clone crits or other mesmer damage abilities (ie quickness rapid fire... here's your cue to complain about reflects). Phantasms aside, if you dodge the F1 then you've got at least 10s before windup for another burst (unless alacrity and shatter storm - the former means chrono so no mirage which means no split surge damage and no sword ambush mobility, the latter means Illusions traitline which means not taking either Domination or Duelling, sacrificing damage output). In that time the sustained damage output is not "massive".

You need to format your posts a little better or add a tldr.

I didn't read everything but if you're agreeing with what I'm saying then there's no point in arguing lol

Please put some effort in and reply to the content rather than taking a jab at my formatting. I'm not agreeing with everything you're saying and have broken down those parts accordingly. I am trying to raise awareness for non-mesmer mains and general pvp forum anti-mesmer bias to see where mesmer mains are coming from, and I hope you can see that a lot of us on here are self-critical and fairly precise in terms of what needs to be adjusted on mesmer, whether correct or not. But I personally don't take kindly to seeing blanket anti-mesmer nerf statements being made without accurate pinpointing of what can and needs to be adjusted for the sake of balance.

shadowpass.4236 · March 14, 2018

@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

Do too much damage
Are too hard to hit
Have every boon permanently
Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.

It's really not that hard to understand. However, I'll break it down for you since it seems that you aren't able to grasp these simple concepts.

Too much damage relative to an average player's health pool. It's "too much" damage, when a single attack can hit you for half or more of your health. In this case, a single clone can hit anywhere from 8-18k. Ie) It's "too much"

Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.

Again, simple concepts. You

can

time your attacks around a melee ranger's evades. However, as an example, if you were to time an attack around a Mirage's kit and manage to land a cc, a Mirage can still dodge during it, nullifying any potential damage that would've hit otherwise.

Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.

It's not a hyperbole. Several meta builds for mesmer easily allow the player to stack every boon in a fight indefinitely.

Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.

lol.

You say there aren't multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage. Then you proceed to mention multiple sources of "massive" damage.

Each Mind Wrack hits for 3-5k+ per illusion shattered. That's anywhere from 9-15k total with 3.
"Some of the new phantasms" is extremely general. In reality, there are MANY of these phantasms that hit extraordinarily hard. Hence, by grouping all of them up into one single overarching phrase, you try to give off the impression that there are way less than there actually are. Not to mention they can all be resummoned multiple times in quick succession.
Incorrect. The ability to deal massive amounts of damage is
not
widespread. Only a handful of other classes outside of mesmer even have access to numbers such as these. The most prominent example is a fresh air ele. I can't think of any other build/class that can hit so hard, so frequently, with such little tell.

I could go on regarding your previous post...

Go for it.

So yeah, just like most classes can deal "too much" damage. In which I've already stated that I would like to see the game move away from a 100-0 or die scenario. Mesmer is not unique in this aspect.
As said in other posts as well - I believe mirage's dodge will be changed to not function when cced in the future. Elusive Mind is getting nerfed in some way anyway. Chrono is fine in terms of evades as is core. Any other problem?
Show me a video or something of a mesmer maintaining every boon (every single one) for the entire duration of a fight, or at least most of it, especially given stripping/stealing/corruption.
Disenchanter and Defender are the only two that hit ridiculously hard in one go. I have agreed these should be nerfed. iZerker is easier to dodge but likewise I have already stated that Imagined Burden should get the second iZerker removed. iWarden is laughable, iMage has a slow windup and long cooldown, iDuelist is nothing special in pvp, iWarlock is fine in terms of damage output, and iSwordsman executes the same animation as blurred frenzy without the evade after a leap - ie walk out of it.Likewise I have stated that interactions with Chronophantasma, F5 and things like signet of ether should be looked at. This is all the case of a major mechanical change where balance will be iterated towards again.

Ah I see "with such little tell" - so it's more to do with no cast time for shatters then? At range there is plenty of tell unless stealthed. I have stated several times in the past I neither like nor agree with stealth/100-0 gameplay and think it is cheap/cheesy. Anticipating blink shatter in melee range is similar to anticipating steal+backstab - likewise neither is healthy from stealth, but that is a separate issue where stealth needs an overhaul/nerfing for the health of the game. But if you can see the mesmer coming then it is purely l2p regarding anticipation and knowing what most mesmers are most likely to do - which is often predictable.

Aside from that, I don't think I can be bothered to list the number of skills including auto attacks that deal high damage including crits greater or equal to those 3-5k mind wrack clone crits or other mesmer damage abilities (ie quickness rapid fire... here's your cue to complain about reflects). Phantasms aside, if you dodge the F1 then you've got at least 10s before windup for another burst (unless alacrity and shatter storm - the former means chrono so no mirage which means no split surge damage and no sword ambush mobility, the latter means Illusions traitline which means not taking either Domination or Duelling, sacrificing damage output). In that time the sustained damage output is not "massive".

You need to format your posts a little better or add a tldr.

I didn't read everything but if you're agreeing with what I'm saying then there's no point in arguing lol

Please put some effort in and reply to the content rather than taking a jab at my formatting. I'm not agreeing with everything you're saying and have broken down those parts accordingly. I am trying to raise awareness for non-mesmer mains and general pvp forum anti-mesmer bias to see where mesmer mains are coming from, and I hope you can see that a lot of us on here are self-critical and fairly precise in terms of what needs to be adjusted on mesmer, whether correct or not. But I personally don't take kindly to seeing blanket anti-mesmer nerf statements being made without accurate pinpointing of what can and needs to be adjusted for the sake of balance.

If you want someone to read and respond to what you wrote, make it easy to read. The formatting and grammar of your previous post make it difficult to understand your points.

Although I still haven't read it fully, I believe you mentioned something about showing you a video for proof. Frankly, I really don't need to. It's extremely easy to replicate. The fact that you don't know how to/refuse to acknowledge it, means:

a) You don't know mesmer as well as you think you dob) You lack the necessary knowledge to contribute meaningfully

You're going off on tangents speaking about other classes in an attempt to defend mesmer. While I don't necessarily mind it, I don't see how some of your examples pertain to the discussion. Nor do I see how arguing semantics helps you in any way. So, together with the poor formatting, I will pick and choose what I want to respond to. Other than that, I've provided numerous screenshots and proof of my claims, yet it seems you've failed to do the same.

Now, as to your point about blanket nerfs to mesmer. I never once mentioned blanket nerfs. However, I do agree that there many things than need to be drastically tuned down. The damage on many phantasms/other skills is one. The survivability and nature of Mirage/mesmer in general is another. The visual sewage and targetting are also issues, as well as the many AIs' interactions with projectiles. There are probably more, but I'll list them when they cross my mind.

Curunen.8729 · March 14, 2018

@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@Curunen.8729 said:
@shadowpass.4236 said:
@"MikeL.8260" said:I'd look through the Mesmer forums and then post about my "case" on Phantasms rework. We had been asking this for what feels like years to no end and now that we finally got it you want to revert everything back just because you had a bad game in PvP..

Illusionary Defender is hitting people for 18k multiple times due to resummons.
Illusionary Disenchanter is hitting for 10k+ as well.
The 10+ clone spam makes it almost impossible to tell what's going on. Not only does it render tab target nearly useless, but click targetting as well.
It is impossible to discern which clone is which because they just resummon themselves.
Mirage is still extremely difficult to pressure due to the nature of Mirage Cloak.
Chronomancer resummoning is even stronger than Mirage's (albeit a weaker MU).
Mesmer can also hit 20k+ damage from stealth repeatedly on a short cooldown without any tells if you don't see the mesmer coming. By the time the mesmer leaves stealth you die unless you can react an almost instant burst with quickness with a stunbreak that's also an evade or an invulnerability skill.
Chronomancer has access to 18+ seconds of alacrity as well as permanent EVERY boon in the game including 25 stacks of might. Core and Mirage do as well (minus the alacrity).
Mirage has the highest access to on-demand invulnerability.

etc. etc. Mesmers are extremely broken.

Just because you've been asking to make your class completely overpowered for years doesn't make it right. (lol)

Way to miss the point completely, nevermind the hyperbole (ie impossible to have more than 3 clones out at once unless having shattered a set (for clarity you shatter 3 clones just before more phantasms turn into clones or you spawn more by other means making it seem like there are more than 3 on the field at once) because clones overwrite each other, lol at tab targeting issues especially if difficulties between phantasms and the player which clearly do not look alike, actually Chrono has the highest access to on demand invuln through F5+F4 and alacrity because evade is not invuln... I could go on but cba).

The rework is fine and necessary to incentivise the use of the class mechanic (shatters) in every game mode. It was such a large change that there's bound to be balance issues. All that is needed is to look at phantasm skills and traits and interactions such as chronophantsma, imagined burden and so on, for balancing.

I didn't read what you wrote because I'm 99% sure your post consists of you arguing semantics.

With that being said, mesmers were already regarded as overpowered before the rework. The fact that the changes made them even stronger is ridiculous.

Mesmers:

Do too much damage
Are too hard to hit
Have every boon permanently
Have multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage
etc. etc.

Actually half of it was l2p, not only semantics so you could continue to keep your head buried or become more aware of how mesmer works so you can discuss the balance issues objectively rather than a subjective rant on the matter full of hyperbole because you hate mesmers. That goes for the OP and others on here as well.

As apharma said - this was a mechanical change necessary for the game - be aware of the difference between fundamental mechanical changes and balance, the latter of which is bound to be out of order when such a large change is made to the foundations of a class. So rather than moaning "mesmer so godlike now even more godlike...", suggest accurate solutions for balancing the phantasms spam in pvp.

I think you'll find many of us on here fairly level headed regarding what needs balancing on mesmer and as such we make suggestions on things to be nerfed. From my perspective I do think there are a number of things that need to be reigned in for the state of the game, which I don't feel is worth the effort for me to go into detail on in this thread.

There wasn't any hyperbole in that post.

Too much damage relative to what - every class can do "too much" damage.

It's really not that hard to understand. However, I'll break it down for you since it seems that you aren't able to grasp these simple concepts.

Too much damage relative to an average player's health pool. It's "too much" damage, when a single attack can hit you for half or more of your health. In this case, a single clone can hit anywhere from 8-18k. Ie) It's "too much"

Too hard to hit - I can build a melee ranger with ridiculously high evade uptime for what it's worth - have had thieves complain at me about hacking in the past. In any case, Elusive Mind will be nerfed in some way, and potentially mirage dodge could be prevented from functioning when cced. Otherwise I don't see the problem.

Again, simple concepts. You

can

time your attacks around a melee ranger's evades. However, as an example, if you were to time an attack around a Mirage's kit and manage to land a cc, a Mirage can still dodge during it, nullifying any potential damage that would've hit otherwise.

Every boon permanently - this is pure hyperbole that doesn't apply anywhere outside of organised instanced pve with set rotations.

It's not a hyperbole. Several meta builds for mesmer easily allow the player to stack every boon in a fight indefinitely.

Multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage - the only true "massive" sources of direct damage is F1 and some of the new phantasms (which has been said they can be balanced accordingly). There are multiple sources of regular/average damage which when comboed together can make for a massive damage spike. Do I think it is balanced? No, I think there should be more tradeoff building for pure power burst and survivability, however the ability to deal massive amounts of damage is widespread across most classes right now.

lol.

You say there aren't multiple ways to deal massive amounts of damage. Then you proceed to mention multiple sources of "massive" damage.

Each Mind Wrack hits for 3-5k+ per illusion shattered. That's anywhere from 9-15k total with 3.
"Some of the new phantasms" is extremely general. In reality, there are MANY of these phantasms that hit extraordinarily hard. Hence, by grouping all of them up into one single overarching phrase, you try to give off the impression that there are way less than there actually are. Not to mention they can all be resummoned multiple times in quick succession.
Incorrect. The ability to deal massive amounts of damage is
not
widespread. Only a handful of other classes outside of mesmer even have access to numbers such as these. The most prominent example is a fresh air ele. I can't think of any other build/class that can hit so hard, so frequently, with such little tell.

I could go on regarding your previous post...

Go for it.

So yeah, just like most classes can deal "too much" damage. In which I've already stated that I would like to see the game move away from a 100-0 or die scenario. Mesmer is not unique in this aspect.
As said in other posts as well - I believe mirage's dodge will be changed to not function when cced in the future. Elusive Mind is getting nerfed in some way anyway. Chrono is fine in terms of evades as is core. Any other problem?
Show me a video or something of a mesmer maintaining every boon (every single one) for the entire duration of a fight, or at least most of it, especially given stripping/stealing/corruption.
Disenchanter and Defender are the only two that hit ridiculously hard in one go. I have agreed these should be nerfed. iZerker is easier to dodge but likewise I have already stated that Imagined Burden should get the second iZerker removed. iWarden is laughable, iMage has a slow windup and long cooldown, iDuelist is nothing special in pvp, iWarlock is fine in terms of damage output, and iSwordsman executes the same animation as blurred frenzy without the evade after a leap - ie walk out of it.Likewise I have stated that interactions with Chronophantasma, F5 and things like signet of ether should be looked at. This is all the case of a major mechanical change where balance will be iterated towards again.