When PoF first launched....

[Tzozef.9841]

When PoF first launched I was able to beat any cheese Scourge (using Dire/Trailblazer) easily 1v1 with my Power Reaper, now it's close to impossible.

Reason being one thing, Barrier, after the latest barrier change it totally negates effectively power builds, making the whole Dire/Trailblazer problem vs. a condi Scourge even worse.

Yea it buffed Scrapper and Weaver nicely, but it made Scourge way to OP against builds THAT SHOULD BE COUNTERING IT.

Also Scourge I argue is way more OP now than at launch. It had alot of counters, Spellbreakers, Holosmith, Mirages, etc. Although Scourge and all of the other specs got nerfed, Scourge got nerfed way less than the rest, and got this REALLY STRONG INDIRECT BUFF via Barrier.

Barrier mechanics need to be split from WvW and PvE too I argue.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

Two reasons that would actually explain why before you could beat Scourges in fights as a reaper and now you can't:

1. People got better at Scourge
2. Reaper did get nerfed in survivability.

A Power Reaper should be wiping out the barrier in a single hit anyway, so the increased duration isn't a real factor.

[Tzozef.9841]

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Two reasons that would actually explain why before you could beat Scourges in fights as a reaper and now you can't:

1. People got better at Scourge
2. Reaper did get nerfed in survivability.

A Power Reaper should be wiping out the barrier in a single hit anyway, so the increased duration isn't a real factor.

(In reference to number 2) Yea that's true too.

It's definitely a factor if you compare it to barrier function at launch, it went away just before I could hit, so there was less to swipe off, and secondly the heal has 6k barrier, that is huge, and it's on a 20 second cd.

Barrier is on ALOT on scourge, and has alot of access too it. It's not so simple as you suggest.

[Drarnor Kunoram.5180]

And the amount of Barrier on Scourge is still small compared to the amount of Shroud you have to chew through on a Necro/Reaper

[Sigmoid.7082]

@Tzozef.9841 said:

@Drarnor Kunoram.5180 said:Two reasons that would actually explain why before you could beat Scourges in fights as a reaper and now you can't:

1. People got better at Scourge
2. Reaper did get nerfed in survivability.

A Power Reaper should be wiping out the barrier in a single hit anyway, so the increased duration isn't a real factor.

(In reference to number 2) Yea that's true too.

It's definitely a factor if you compare it to barrier function at launch, it went away just before I could hit, so there was less to swipe off, and secondly the heal has 6k barrier, that is huge, and it's on a 20 second cd.

Barrier is on ALOT on scourge, and has alot of access too it. It's not so simple as you suggest.

First off Sand Flare has a base CD of 25s and traiting means you miss out on Unending Corruption.

Secondly the base barrier on the heal is 4.2k with a healing power scaling of ~1.5. You would need 1.2k healing power to get to 6k and nobody in dire/trailblazer would get there.

Thirdly barrier is all good and well on necro but unlike weaver and scrapper necro lacks the other defensive mechanics to combine with it. E.g. blocks, evades, invulnerabilies.

Lastly the same non scourge necro would have around 24k shroud which is effectively a decaying 48k health barrier.

The new barrier has its advantages and disadvantages over it's earlier iterations but it is by no means over powered.

[Nimon.7840]

Scourge definetly got nerfed hard. And it was maybe the hardest nerfs of all classes.But also it got buffed. The delay on f abilities can be pretty nice in 1v1s.

But if you cant kill a scourge in a 1v1 on reaper (only speaking from wvw perspective)You either have the wrong build, or you are bad, or the scourge is super good.

Try dodging their first shade with a dodge, second shade same thing. Meanwhile attack from range with axe. If you feel like having not enough condi cleanses, get offhand dagger and a staff.But its not needed. I always play axe/warhorn + greatsword.

Dodge the last shade by going into shroud and using shroud 2.

Now if the scourge wants so do dmg with his f abilities, he needs to go closerange, which is a pretty bad idea vs reaper xD

You can kill 70% of all scourges like that. Only rlly good scourges will not waste all their f1s to kill someone.

[Tzozef.9841]

@Nimon.7840 said:Scourge definetly got nerfed hard. And it was maybe the hardest nerfs of all classes.But also it got buffed. The delay on f abilities can be pretty nice in 1v1s.

But if you cant kill a scourge in a 1v1 on reaper (only speaking from wvw perspective)You either have the wrong build, or you are bad, or the scourge is super good.

Try dodging their first shade with a dodge, second shade same thing. Meanwhile attack from range with axe. If you feel like having not enough condi cleanses, get offhand dagger and a staff.But its not needed. I always play axe/warhorn + greatsword.

Dodge the last shade by going into shroud and using shroud 2.

Now if the scourge wants so do dmg with his f abilities, he needs to go closerange, which is a pretty bad idea vs reaper xD

You can kill 70% of all scourges like that. Only rlly good scourges will not waste all their f1s to kill someone.

I'm referring to Scourges that are super good, abuse Trailblazer/dire ascended and have best food.

Do you play Reaper? What build do you use?

[ZDragon.3046]

People just got better at it when it first launched if a scourge missed the summon sand shade snipeBy snipe i mean they put summon shand shade under you and pressed every single f skill on the bar

It was pretty much gg for the scourge because they were spec'ed to glass. Now they are spec'ed with a bit more survivability in mind and they play smarter than simply dropping everything because that no longer works in most situations. Ideally against a scourge if you dont kill them in the first few burst attempts you will die reaper cannot win long extended fights against most of the other professions or e specs for that matter.

If the scourge is running a power leech build then you have a few more chances but if they are condi leech you can wrap that up if you dont get them in the first try or the second.

[intox.6347]

@Tzozef.9841 said:When PoF first launched I was able to beat any cheese Scourge (using Dire/Trailblazer) easily 1v1 with my Power Reaper, now it's close to impossible.

Reason being one thing, Barrier, after the latest barrier change it totally negates effectively power builds, making the whole Dire/Trailblazer problem vs. a condi Scourge even worse.

Yea it buffed Scrapper and Weaver nicely, but it made Scourge way to OP against builds THAT SHOULD BE COUNTERING IT.

Also Scourge I argue is way more OP now than at launch. It had alot of counters, Spellbreakers, Holosmith, Mirages, etc. Although Scourge and all of the other specs got nerfed, Scourge got nerfed way less than the rest, and got this REALLY STRONG INDIRECT BUFF via Barrier.

Barrier mechanics need to be split from WvW and PvE too I argue.

Wow do you really roam with power reaper ? :D that shroud cd change and shroud nerf makes almost impossible to seriously roam with reaper.... u can beat some confused pvers doing dailys, but go 1v1 against roaming build... nah. When i met reaper ... its like... he cant disengage, outrun me... so its like easy target. Scourge was nerfed and it will be..... its realy bad class for roam.... reaper even worse now..

[Anchoku.8142]

Is Reaper supposed to be the counter to Scourge, or anything in PvP, really?

[Nimon.7840]

@intox.6347 said:

@Tzozef.9841 said:When PoF first launched I was able to beat any cheese Scourge (using Dire/Trailblazer) easily 1v1 with my Power Reaper, now it's close to impossible.

Reason being one thing, Barrier, after the latest barrier change it totally negates effectively power builds, making the whole Dire/Trailblazer problem vs. a condi Scourge even worse.

Yea it buffed Scrapper and Weaver nicely, but it made Scourge way to OP against builds THAT SHOULD BE COUNTERING IT.

Also Scourge I argue is way more OP now than at launch. It had alot of counters, Spellbreakers, Holosmith, Mirages, etc. Although Scourge and all of the other specs got nerfed, Scourge got nerfed way less than the rest, and got this REALLY STRONG INDIRECT BUFF via Barrier.

Barrier mechanics need to be split from WvW and PvE too I argue.

Wow do you really roam with power reaper ? :D that shroud cd change and shroud nerf makes almost impossible to seriously roam with reaper.... u can beat some confused pvers doing dailys, but go 1v1 against roaming build... nah. When i met reaper ... its like... he cant disengage, outrun me... so its like easy target. Scourge was nerfed and it will be..... its realy bad class for roam.... reaper even worse now..

Well. It is possible to kill engis, if they dont run away.Same goes for warriors.Everything else is pretty hard to kill.

Or some power mesmers.

But reaper is highly dependand on defensive utility skills. If you know, you play again condi, take consume conditions, suffer, well of power, plague signet.If enemy is playing power, better take your soul is mine, spectral armor, fleshworm, spectral walk

So if you can see the enemy coming, and if you are able to switch out abilities before fight starts, you have at least a decent chance.

But its just not the same, as playing the op classes, that always take the same utility skills

@Tzozef.9841 im gonna look and post it, as soon as im back from work. It is a cavalier, marauder mix.

[KrHome.1920]

@"Nimon.7840" said:Scourge definetly got nerfed hard. And it was maybe the hardest nerfs of all classes.But also it got buffed. The delay on f abilities can be pretty nice in 1v1s.

But if you cant kill a scourge in a 1v1 on reaper (only speaking from wvw perspective)You either have the wrong build, or you are bad, or the scourge is super good.

Try dodging their first shade with a dodge, second shade same thing. Meanwhile attack from range with axe. If you feel like having not enough condi cleanses, get offhand dagger and a staff.But its not needed. I always play axe/warhorn + greatsword.

Dodge the last shade by going into shroud and using shroud 2.

Now if the scourge wants so do dmg with his f abilities, he needs to go closerange, which is a pretty bad idea vs reaper xD

You can kill 70% of all scourges like that. Only rlly good scourges will not waste all their f1s to kill someone.The Trailblazer Scourges I run into are running Staff. Before they reach my Axe range, they spam Staff Marks on me. The next step is an offensive Portal use to melee range, then they hit pulsing F5, and fearing F4 and place their shades right to the place where I move to and build up a 4 to 8k Barrier. At that point I have weakness and get chain feared if I was stupid enough to pop Shroud 3 or select Foot in the Grave (if I was not: Staff 5 and F4 will fear me anyway) and can barely remove that Barrier, but definitely not touch his 3k armored 27k HP pool to a significant extent.

It is extremely easy for a Scourge to lockdown a Power Reaper build like yours. In EU every single Scourge that has the confidence to run around solo in WvW will faceroll you on that Axe/Wh+GS build.

Axe kiting and GS cc works only in PvP (Amulet System - much lower offense and defense for Scourges - I duelled Scourge players that destroyed me in WvW and who I destroyed in PvP) and against Viper geard Scourges, because only these builds can be pressured with Axe.

When I run a non anti-Scourge build in WvW (because such a build is bad against everything else) I "test" the Scourge. This means I cast Spectral Walk at 3k range and run into him with Axe2 to look how much damage it deals. If it's low (-> Dire/TB) then I cast Spectral Return, pop Shroud (Speed of Shadows) to cleanse all that cripple/chill, turn around, RS2, leave Shroud and run away.

Why are Scourge-Counter-Builds bad against everything else: Because Scourge behaves like a PvE champ mob: Immobile but hits hard which means the faster you kill it the better you survive. So running the PvE Meta Power Reaper with minor tweaks (Consume Conditions, Plague Signet, Well of Power) is a direct counter to a Scourge.

[Crinn.7864]

@Anchoku.8142 said:Is Reaper supposed to be the counter to Scourge, or anything in PvP, really?

Scourge counters Reaper pretty hard. Reaper has less range than Scourge and lacks the boon generation to protect his might from the Scourge's boon corruption, on top of Reaper being enormously penalized by all the cripple Scourge puts out.

[Avigrus.2871]

Reaper is just bad atm anyway... that shroud degen.... lol

[Lahmia.2193]

@Avigrus.2871 said:Reaper is just bad atm anyway... that shroud degen.... lol

I'd happily replace death and reaper shroud with a scourge like setup, when it comes to shroud and life force.

[Nimon.7840]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Nimon.7840" said:Scourge definetly got nerfed hard. And it was maybe the hardest nerfs of all classes.But also it got buffed. The delay on f abilities can be pretty nice in 1v1s.

But if you cant kill a scourge in a 1v1 on reaper (only speaking from wvw perspective)You either have the wrong build, or you are bad, or the scourge is super good.

Try dodging their first shade with a dodge, second shade same thing. Meanwhile attack from range with axe. If you feel like having not enough condi cleanses, get offhand dagger and a staff.But its not needed. I always play axe/warhorn + greatsword.

Dodge the last shade by going into shroud and using shroud 2.

Now if the scourge wants so do dmg with his f abilities, he needs to go closerange, which is a pretty bad idea vs reaper xD

You can kill 70% of all scourges like that. Only rlly good scourges will not waste all their f1s to kill someone.The Trailblazer Scourges I run into are running Staff. Before they reach my Axe range, they spam Staff Marks on me. The next step is an offensive Portal use to melee range, then they hit pulsing F5, and fearing F4 and place their shades right to the place where I move to and build up a 4 to 8k Barrier. At that point I have weakness and get chain feared if I was stupid enough to pop Shroud 3 or select Foot in the Grave (if I was not: Staff 5 and F4 will fear me anyway) and can barely remove that Barrier, but definitely not touch his 3k armored 27k HP pool to a significant extent.

It is extremely easy for a Scourge to lockdown a Power Reaper build like yours. In EU every single Scourge that has the confidence to run around solo in WvW will faceroll you on that Axe/Wh+GS build.

Axe kiting and GS cc works only in PvP (Amulet System - much lower offense and defense for Scourges - I duelled Scourge players that destroyed me in WvW and who I destroyed in PvP) and against Viper geard Scourges, because only these builds can be pressured with Axe.

When I run a non anti-Scourge build in WvW (because such a build is bad against everything else) I "test" the Scourge. This means I cast Spectral Walk at 3k range and run into him with Axe2 to look how much damage it deals. If it's low (-> Dire/TB) then I cast Spectral Return, pop Shroud (Speed of Shadows) to cleanse all that cripple/chill, turn around, RS2, leave Shroud and run away.

Why are Scourge-Counter-Builds bad against everything else: Because Scourge behaves like a PvE champ mob: Immobile but hits hard which means the faster you kill it the better you survive. So running the PvE Meta Power Reaper with minor tweaks (Consume Conditions, Plague Signet, Well of Power) is a direct counter to a Scourge.

Well. I win about 80% of the fights against scourges with my build. And i am on eu tier 1 or 2.But the problem is: go find a scourge solo roaming. They will never be alone. And then you will loose.

Yesterday i fought a scrapper, holo combo with my normal build. Cavalier, marauder, berserker valkyrie combination.Well. I got one of them downed every time. But reaper is just too bad to survive heavy pressure of two opponents

So same goes for any scourge + some class.It gets even worse if its some kind of: consi scourge + power rev or so.Thats not winable.

But against soloscourges. If you dont fuck up something real bad. Its easy to win with this build

[Kaiser.9873]

@Tzozef.9841 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:Scourge definetly got nerfed hard. And it was maybe the hardest nerfs of all classes.But also it got buffed. The delay on f abilities can be pretty nice in 1v1s.

But if you cant kill a scourge in a 1v1 on reaper (only speaking from wvw perspective)You either have the wrong build, or you are bad, or the scourge is super good.

Try dodging their first shade with a dodge, second shade same thing. Meanwhile attack from range with axe. If you feel like having not enough condi cleanses, get offhand dagger and a staff.But its not needed. I always play axe/warhorn + greatsword.

Dodge the last shade by going into shroud and using shroud 2.

Now if the scourge wants so do dmg with his f abilities, he needs to go closerange, which is a pretty bad idea vs reaper xD

You can kill 70% of all scourges like that. Only rlly good scourges will not waste all their f1s to kill someone.

I'm referring to Scourges that are super good, abuse Trailblazer/dire ascended and have best food.

Do you play Reaper? What build do you use?

If they are super good, have the best gear, and use the really expensive food then you shouldn't be able to kill them easily. Really if they are all of the above you better match them with gear, skill, and foods, or else you stand no chance.