Epidemic in raids needs to be nerfed

[Feanor.2358]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:If you go and dig my older posts, you'll see that my position back then was "epi is mostly fine, because it's niche and doesn't overperform that much". Well, now it does.Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

Which made epi blatantly overperforming. It's the relative strength that matters, not the raw numbers.If we follow that train of thoughts, then there will

always

be something "blatantly overperforming"Besides, if something is overperforming now, it's definitely not the scourge.

You balance the result with the risk incurred by playing the particular build. So no, you won't necessarily always have an overperformer. Epi bounce just has a ridiculous damage potential without much of a drawback.

[Grogba.6204]

Or absolute zero potential if the fight doesn't allow it. And there is a difference coordinating a bounce against an invulnerable target than it is against a target that dies after a second.

And then there is the whole issue what the Necromancer brings to the party outside of one skill whose potential damage is reliant on stacking a particular class and having adds. I provided a list a few posts ago about the Warrior. When Necro's high health pool + shroud/barrier mechanic are the assumed reason for the class's lack of DPS and proper support then why are Warriors allowed to do everything necessary (CC, Buffs, Mobility, Mechanic, melee/range) while still pulling top dps?

Hell, the only class still worse than Necromancer is Thief because the Necromancer at least has Epidemic. Thieves bring zero support apart from one meme build that allows the class to perform reasonably well against Matthias and MO.It shares the same healthpool with Elementalist and Guardian, it's ranged options are incredible limited and underperforming in every way, Thieves have little to no burst to speak off compared to Guardians, Elementalists and Holosmiths, are still required (as Daredevil) to use dodges as part of their rotations but without the added benefits the Mirage has, their PoF spec is a joke. They are only decent in melee range and even there only with the Condibuild.

For a class that quite literally only has melee DPS as its role, Thieves should be among the top dps builds.

[Snowjob.7245]

One class is going to be better on a particular encounter no matter what. I see no reason to nerf epidemic. If epi bouncing was possible on every encounter maybe nerf it (or more likely consider firing your raid encounter design team).

As far as flat out best single target condi damage goes scourge is not that far behind mirage. Look at these comparisons

Souless horror scourge is ahead 20% (multi target fight and what a lot of people are complaining about)https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-19767

Matthias mirage is ahead 15% (single target fight)https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats/area-16115

And unless you are going for world record speed clears compiling the absolute optimal setup is a joke anyway. Every class in any optimized build can complete the raids, provided you have a chrono and a druid (which is a separate and much more serious topic).

Interesting balance is not everyone is equal on every encounter no matter what, just like its not one class is the best no matter what.

[Magnus Godrik.5841]

Dont nerf the only thing that makes necro accepted in raid groups. If it bothers you that much than dont have them on your team.

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Dont nerf the only thing that makes necro accepted in raid groups. If it bothers you that much than dont have them on your team.

This argument doesn't work, it's like saying rev hammer #5 one shots everything but because everything else is useless don't nerf it.. <just an example, but that's what your pretty much saying

[Sephylon.4938]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Dont nerf the only thing that makes necro accepted in raid groups. If it bothers you that much than dont have them on your team.

This argument doesn't work, it's like saying rev hammer #5 one shots everything but because everything else is useless don't nerf it.. <just an example, but that's what your pretty much saying

but isn't hammer 5 only used in wvw, where epi is no longer even used?

[Mini Crinny.6190]

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Dont nerf the only thing that makes necro accepted in raid groups. If it bothers you that much than dont have them on your team.

This argument doesn't work, it's like saying rev hammer #5 one shots everything but because everything else is useless don't nerf it.. <just an example, but that's what your pretty much saying

but isn't hammer 5 only used in wvw, where epi is no longer even used?

It's just a example just putting something in perspective can't keep defending a skill saying it shouldn't be nerfed because it's the only good thing Necro has it doesn't work like that.

[Mitch.4781]

This thread surely has run its course

[Sephylon.4938]

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Sephylon.4938 said:

@Mini Crinny.6190 said:

@Magnus Godrik.5841 said:Dont nerf the only thing that makes necro accepted in raid groups. If it bothers you that much than dont have them on your team.

This argument doesn't work, it's like saying rev hammer #5 one shots everything but because everything else is useless don't nerf it.. <just an example, but that's what your pretty much saying

but isn't hammer 5 only used in wvw, where epi is no longer even used?

It's just a example just putting something in perspective can't keep defending a skill saying it shouldn't be nerfed because it's the only good thing Necro has it doesn't work like that.

That's an apple and an orange though, wouldn't you say?

[Nimon.7840]

@MithranArkanere.8957 said:As I see it, Epidemic is fine as it is, and what needs to change is the transfer, copy and conversion mechanics for boons and conditions, to have the same limitation Reflect has:

• It should be possible to transfer, copy or convert each individual stack of a condition or boon only twice.

You send bleed to an enemy, they send it back, you can't send that stack of bleeding back again.

You get weakness, you turn it into might, enemy turns it back into weakness, you can't turn it back into might again.

You copy bleed to an enemy, then copy that bleed again in an enemy that got the first copy, can't copy that bleed a third time.

You take poison from an ally with Plague signet passive, you send that poison to an enemy with Plague signet active, they can't send that poison back.

I am positive that will work.

That would most likely kill necro in any PvP mode (necro Vs necro). It's already the gamble who transfers his conditions first. The one who's first almost always looses.your suggestiont will just support exactly this scenario

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Astralporing.1957 said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

[Nimon.7840]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Astralporing.1957 said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

And right now you dont have to take a Condi Berserker. That only makes sense on VG but still.Yes, you could have taken a condi rev. With Scourge you dont have to take a Condi Rev for torment and can use another Scourge for another Epi. One Epi isnt the problem. The problem is the stacking of Scourges.

Would you say that a Condi class should get ~28k Boss DPS on VG? A Boss that has basically no toughness. Weaver dealt ~25k Boss DPS pre patch. That was without the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit nerf.Scourge is able to get ~40-42k Boss DPS on Desmina, meaning that it deals more DPS on an actual Boss than the current top DPS Class can deal on a large golem.

It might only be used on 4 bosses, on those 4 bosses however it is a huge problem.

[Nimon.7840]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

And right now you dont have to take a Condi Berserker. That only makes sense on VG but still.Yes, you could have taken a condi rev. With Scourge you dont have to take a Condi Rev for torment and can use another Scourge for another Epi. One Epi isnt the problem. The problem is the stacking of Scourges.

Would you say that a Condi class should get ~28k Boss DPS on VG? A Boss that has basically no toughness. Weaver dealt ~25k Boss DPS pre patch. That was without the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit nerf.Scourge is able to get ~40-42k Boss DPS on Desmina, meaning that it deals more DPS on an actual Boss than the current top DPS Class can deal on a large golem.

It might only be used on 4 bosses, on those 4 bosses however it is a huge problem.

4 bosses out of 17? And that's bad? And stacking Eles on almost every boss before the patch was good?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

Go there and tell me that again. Over all bosses scourge is at 24k boss DPS. There are 11 builds that do overall more boss DPS.

And while being at 35k on desmina or like 28 on vg, scourges DPS on other bosses have to Be pretty bad to get that 24k on average. You have to be at like 13-20k on 2 other the other bosses then.

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

[RaidsAreEasyAF.8652]

@"Nimon.7840" said:4 bosses out of 17? And that's bad? And stacking Eles on almost every boss before the patch was good?Its bad on those 4 Bosses. Necro being top DPS s fine. It just shouldnt be by that much. I never said that stacking ele was fine. It got a well deserved Tempest Defense and MS nerf. While i dont agree with how they nerfed MS its still a deserved nerf.

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_statsGo there and tell me that again. Over all bosses scourge is at 24k boss DPS. There are 11 builds that do overall more boss DPS.

And while being at 35k on desmina or like 28 on vg, scourges DPS on other bosses have to Be pretty bad to get that 24k on average. You have to be at like 13-20k on 2 >other the other bosses then.So different classes are best on different bosses. Shocker. I said that im fine with Scourge being top DPS on the bosses its actually used. It just shouldnt outperform every other build by a large margin.

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

On most Bosses it probably won't.You want to abuse double hits with LB F1, meaning that you need a large Hitbox.On Gorseval you kinda want power. While Condi Berzerker might deal more boss DPS, it will slow down the splitphases.Sloth will lose every condition during the cc phase, meaning that you have to ramp up again.KC, while not a large hitbox, also favors power DPS.Samarog won't take damage during the CC Phase and depending on how long your phase takes you have to ramp up again.The only boss where it might be better than ele is Dhuum.

[sigur.9453]

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

On most Bosses it probably won't.You want to abuse double hits with LB F1, meaning that you need a large Hitbox.On Gorseval you kinda want power. While Condi Berzerker might deal more boss DPS, it will slow down the splitphases.Sloth will lose every condition during the cc phase, meaning that you have to ramp up again.KC, while not a large hitbox, also favors power DPS.Samarog won't take damage during the CC Phase and depending on how long your phase takes you have to ramp up again.The only boss where it might be better than ele is Dhuum.

there will be no boss where berserker war is top dps.

[sigur.9453]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

And right now you dont have to take a Condi Berserker. That only makes sense on VG but still.Yes, you could have taken a condi rev. With Scourge you dont have to take a Condi Rev for torment and can use another Scourge for another Epi. One Epi isnt the problem. The problem is the stacking of Scourges.

Would you say that a Condi class should get ~28k Boss DPS on VG? A Boss that has basically no toughness. Weaver dealt ~25k Boss DPS pre patch. That was without the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit nerf.Scourge is able to get ~40-42k Boss DPS on Desmina, meaning that it deals more DPS on an actual Boss than the current top DPS Class can deal on a large golem.

It might only be used on 4 bosses, on those 4 bosses however it is a huge problem.

4 bosses out of 17? And that's bad? And stacking Eles on almost every boss before the patch was good?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

Go there and tell me that again. Over all bosses scourge is at 24k boss DPS. There are 11 builds that do overall more boss DPS.

And while being at 35k on desmina or like 28 on vg, scourges DPS on other bosses have to Be pretty bad to get that 24k on average. You have to be at like 13-20k on 2 other the other bosses then.

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

you are ignoring that ele was not stacked because it had ONE overpowered skill. whithout that said skill, you are right, "its pretty bad".

[TexZero.7910]

@"sigur.9453" said:you are ignoring that ele was not stacked because it had ONE overpowered skill. whithout that said skill, you are right, "its pretty bad".

Yeah, stop ignoring the fact that ele had MORE than ONE overpowered skill. How dare we bring up the fact that BOTH Meteor Shower and Ice Bow have had more reworks than Epidemic combined.

[sigur.9453]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@"sigur.9453" said:you are ignoring that ele was not stacked because it had ONE overpowered skill. whithout that said skill, you are right, "its pretty bad".

Yeah, stop ignoring the fact that ele had MORE than ONE overpowered skill. How dare we bring up the fact that BOTH Meteor Shower and Ice Bow have had more reworks than Epidemic combined.

???so you argree that epi should be reworked?

[TexZero.7910]

@sigur.9453 said:???so you argree that epi should be reworked?

Not in the slightest. I just found your premise extremely faulty that ele wasn't stacked for just one skill...It was stacked because it had more than one that pushed it over the top. Additionally it had fine DPS and wasn't reliant on those skills as can be seen by the current benchmarks, the same cannot be said for necro. It's DPS by comparison without Epi is garbage.

[sigur.9453]

@TexZero.7910 said:

@sigur.9453 said:???so you argree that epi should be reworked?

Not in the slightest. I just found your premise extremely faulty that ele wasn't stacked for just one skill...It was stacked because it had more than one that pushed it over the top. Additionally it had fine DPS and wasn't reliant on those skills as can be seen by the current benchmarks, the same cannot be said for necro. It's DPS by comparison without Epi is garbage.

i absolutly agree.ele wasn´t stacked for one skill, it was stacked because it offered (still does) extremly good dps OVERALL. Mostly coming from MODIFIERS.Don´t you think its wrong if a class is garbage without that one single skill? Is that how balance should work?

[TexZero.7910]

@sigur.9453 said:

@TexZero.7910 said:

@sigur.9453 said:???so you argree that epi should be reworked?

Not in the slightest. I just found your premise extremely faulty that ele wasn't stacked for just one skill...It was stacked because it had more than one that pushed it over the top. Additionally it had fine DPS and wasn't reliant on those skills as can be seen by the current benchmarks, the same cannot be said for necro. It's DPS by comparison without Epi is garbage.

i absolutly agree.ele wasn´t stacked for one skill, it was stacked because it offered (still does) extremly good dps OVERALL. Mostly coming from MODIFIERS.Don´t you think its wrong if a class is garbage without that one single skill? Is that how balance should work?

No, because i don't believe in strictly numerical balance. That's the simplemans tool for balance. A class can be bad in some scenarios and great in others, that's healthy balance.

[Malediktus.9250]

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

And right now you dont have to take a Condi Berserker. That only makes sense on VG but still.Yes, you could have taken a condi rev. With Scourge you dont have to take a Condi Rev for torment and can use another Scourge for another Epi. One Epi isnt the problem. The problem is the stacking of Scourges.

Would you say that a Condi class should get ~28k Boss DPS on VG? A Boss that has basically no toughness. Weaver dealt ~25k Boss DPS pre patch. That was without the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit nerf.Scourge is able to get ~40-42k Boss DPS on Desmina, meaning that it deals more DPS on an actual Boss than the current top DPS Class can deal on a large golem.

It might only be used on 4 bosses, on those 4 bosses however it is a huge problem.

4 bosses out of 17? And that's bad? And stacking Eles on almost every boss before the patch was good?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

Go there and tell me that again. Over all bosses scourge is at 24k boss DPS. There are 11 builds that do overall more boss DPS.

And while being at 35k on desmina or like 28 on vg, scourges DPS on other bosses have to Be pretty bad to get that 24k on average. You have to be at like 13-20k on 2 other the other bosses then.

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

What you forget is that it is even ruining the current flagship encounter of the game, dhuum cm.

[Nimon.7840]

@sigur.9453 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

And right now you dont have to take a Condi Berserker. That only makes sense on VG but still.Yes, you could have taken a condi rev. With Scourge you dont have to take a Condi Rev for torment and can use another Scourge for another Epi. One Epi isnt the problem. The problem is the stacking of Scourges.

Would you say that a Condi class should get ~28k Boss DPS on VG? A Boss that has basically no toughness. Weaver dealt ~25k Boss DPS pre patch. That was without the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit nerf.Scourge is able to get ~40-42k Boss DPS on Desmina, meaning that it deals more DPS on an actual Boss than the current top DPS Class can deal on a large golem.

It might only be used on 4 bosses, on those 4 bosses however it is a huge problem.

4 bosses out of 17? And that's bad? And stacking Eles on almost every boss before the patch was good?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

Go there and tell me that again. Over all bosses scourge is at 24k boss DPS. There are 11 builds that do overall more boss DPS.

And while being at 35k on desmina or like 28 on vg, scourges DPS on other bosses have to Be pretty bad to get that 24k on average. You have to be at like 13-20k on 2 other the other bosses then.

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

you are ignoring that ele was not stacked because it had ONE overpowered skill. whithout that said skill, you are right, "its pretty bad".

See. And while heavily nerfing one skill of ele. Ele is still very good and in top spots of DPS.

So we can take all those very good skills away from ele and then take away epi. That would be fair. But then ele players will cry again.

[Nimon.7840]

@Malediktus.9250 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@RaidsAreEasyAF.8652 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Fun fact: epi is not working better now than then. In tre semi-recent history it has been reworked exactly once, and that was the nerf meant for WvW (that definitely didn't improve anything in pve). It's not overperforming any more than it did when you made those previous comments. The only difference is that eles got dialed back from their previous unreasonable levels.

The thing that changed Epi and made it absolutely broken is Scourge. Reaper was basically only stacking bleeding and a tiny bit of Torment. Scourge stacks Burning, Torment and Bleeding. Scourge brings way more Conditions to bounce than Reaper or Core Necro.

But at these times. You had a Condi berserker or could even take a Condi rev with you. So no. Nothing rlly changed

And right now you dont have to take a Condi Berserker. That only makes sense on VG but still.Yes, you could have taken a condi rev. With Scourge you dont have to take a Condi Rev for torment and can use another Scourge for another Epi. One Epi isnt the problem. The problem is the stacking of Scourges.

Would you say that a Condi class should get ~28k Boss DPS on VG? A Boss that has basically no toughness. Weaver dealt ~25k Boss DPS pre patch. That was without the Spotter, EA and Frost Spirit nerf.Scourge is able to get ~40-42k Boss DPS on Desmina, meaning that it deals more DPS on an actual Boss than the current top DPS Class can deal on a large golem.

It might only be used on 4 bosses, on those 4 bosses however it is a huge problem.

4 bosses out of 17? And that's bad? And stacking Eles on almost every boss before the patch was good?

https://www.gw2raidar.com/global_stats

Go there and tell me that again. Over all bosses scourge is at 24k boss DPS. There are 11 builds that do overall more boss DPS.

And while being at 35k on desmina or like 28 on vg, scourges DPS on other bosses have to Be pretty bad to get that 24k on average. You have to be at like 13-20k on 2 other the other bosses then.

And if you go to Snowcrows website... We will see if berserker won't see any use while being at 41k large boss's dps

What you forget is that it is even ruining the current flagship encounter of the game, dhuum cm.

Which isn't that hard in my opinion. Well I think I am something between casual and elitist player.

And for casuals it might be pretty hard. We tried yesterday with my guild group for one hour.We didn't manage to kill him on challenge mode. After this we just did normal mode and killed it easily.

I got catched 3 times. 2 times after GG was called so they don't count and one time, because I was clearing spiders with my last shade and someone got caught by black guy so I had to walk close in order to fear. Well that guy died in black guys arms immediately after I got caught so...

So we failed because many people got caught. But that's an issue of attention and the ability to overlook the whole arena and reactions.

And still. Even if scourge is at 35k DPS on 4 out of 17 bosses. The overall DPS on the other 12 bosses is 20k then. Which is at the lower half of the overall DPS table. 24=((35x4)+(tx12))/17. (T is 20 then).

So if you take away epidemic necro would be at 20 k overall DPS. Which is pretty bad. So it would need heavy buffs to get back the right to raid. And these buffs would be for PvP as well because anet can't split skills in gamemodes (see necro dagger changes). And then the PvP people will cry again like little babies