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Death's Judgment Should Not Be Unblockable

Shadowcat.2680

By Shadowcat.2680
in Thief

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bq pd.2148

bq pd.2148

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@Asur.9178 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Deadeye vanishes from sight? Best have a dodge ready. It's well signaled and easy to dodge if you can notice a laser beam line. And if you can't well.. the signal is the Deadeye vanishing. Its signalling, 'Get ready to dodge'. The laser is just a bonus.

I've had fellow thieves dodge it a fair few times. Forced me to mix up my timing. Good play - bait/baited.

What you can't do is rely on passive defence. And that's great - time to dedicate some focus on the Deadeye during the fight.

Most blocks/reflects/projectile destruction are triggered actively by the player and are not passive. All I'm after is more active play on both sides of the fight: deadeye and the one marked. A deadeye not needing to pay attention to blocks/reflects when using their burst skill promotes braindead gameplay, gameplay that relies on the passive of Death's Judgment being innately unblockable.

But there are a lot of other counterplay already available sorry, oi are complaining about a non issue, again go read above of all the counterplay and the massive obvious tells on the skill it’s self.

It’s ok for skills to be able to counterplay other skills, it’s a fact of the game and why Blocks and Projectile hate exist and why there are allowed to be Unblockable skills to bypass those, it’s actually healthy design.

So far all claims brought up in the OP have been debunked and the reason is very clear on why this thread was started, and fun fact it’s not DJ that’s the issue

I've stated outright why this thread was started: Death's Judgment should be susceptible to the counterplay already existent in the game for projectiles. The other (reliable) counterplay currently available is dodging/evading or activating an invuln. Terrain and LOS are situational at best.

The tell on Death's Judgment doesn't mean it should be unblockable or it would've been unblockable all along (and every hard-hitting skill in the game with an obvious tell would also be unblockable by that logic).

Now it has Requirements that added more counter play that it didn’t have before so again it is perfectly fine, there is more than enough counterplay to it in game.

Also all the claims brought in the OP to state why it shouldn’t be Unblockable have been debunked, so what’s the reason now it shouldn’t be Unblockable?

Is it the highest base damage Unblockable skill in game? No

Is it Spammable? Not even close

Does it have a plethora of counterplay? Yes, tons.

If anything the Plethora Of Projectile hate and Blocks needs more counterplay and guess what here it is more counterplay to the amount of cancerous defense spam in game.

Again it’s perfectly clear where the issue lies and it’s not DJ

1) It is the hardest hitting unblockable skill in the game. You've mentioned Phoenix and Prime Light Beam as examples of skills that do more damage. They don't.2) Malice builds much quicker than the old malice and the new M7 refunds most of the ini spent building that malice. Spam is very much rewarded by the new malice.3) The addition of needing stealth for Death's Judgment didn't add any counterplay. A deadeye stealthing has always been a cue that Death's Judgment is likely incoming. Stealth still isn't a guarantee a Death's Judgment will follow. A deadeye's high access to stealth and malice lingering for 30 secs or until the shot gets taken will always mean the deadeye has more opportunities to fire Death's Judgment than most opponents have to dodge or evade.4) There is already existent, active counterplay to blocks/reflects. Death's Judgment existing as innately unblockable is a passive (something the game does for you) on the damage side of things.

1) Your OP and main claim stated that DJ was the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, again that’s your claim not mine, it was debunked. Here’s your claim:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game.

2) DJ can’t be spammed since players have to break up the use of DJ by using quite a few other skills in between every successful DJ use, to have an effective DJ, again might want to look up the definition of spamming in regards to video games, this claim was debunked.

3) the addition of the Stealth requirement does add counterplay, it’s called Reveal skills, can’t use Stealth Attacks if you are Revealed and not in Stealth, funny how that works. And still has the plethora of other Counterplay available outside of that.

4) again as I stated because of the cancerous amount of blocks and Projectile hate it was needed for more counterplay to those types defense spam and here we have Anet ensuring Rifle Stealth Attack Stayed an Unblockable.

Again all claims in the OP for why DJ needs to not be Unblockable have been debunked, and it’s crystal clear what the issue is, hint it’s not DJ.

The best counterplay is body blocks....mesmers/rangers are the best at it...ever seen a DJ land with 3 illusions AND 2-3 phantasms out from a single mesmer? Yea, I haven't either.

also nice to fight a minion master.tho yea mesmer is best at it as their clones stand still when the mesmer moves and the target is invisible, then move towards target. so just stand in a sword clone and afk :D

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Shadowcat.2680

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Deadeye vanishes from sight? Best have a dodge ready. It's well signaled and easy to dodge if you can notice a laser beam line. And if you can't well.. the signal is the Deadeye vanishing. Its signalling, 'Get ready to dodge'. The laser is just a bonus.

I've had fellow thieves dodge it a fair few times. Forced me to mix up my timing. Good play - bait/baited.

What you can't do is rely on passive defence. And that's great - time to dedicate some focus on the Deadeye during the fight.

Most blocks/reflects/projectile destruction are triggered actively by the player and are not passive. All I'm after is more active play on both sides of the fight: deadeye and the one marked. A deadeye not needing to pay attention to blocks/reflects when using their burst skill promotes braindead gameplay, gameplay that relies on the passive of Death's Judgment being innately unblockable.

But there are a lot of other counterplay already available sorry, oi are complaining about a non issue, again go read above of all the counterplay and the massive obvious tells on the skill it’s self.

It’s ok for skills to be able to counterplay other skills, it’s a fact of the game and why Blocks and Projectile hate exist and why there are allowed to be Unblockable skills to bypass those, it’s actually healthy design.

So far all claims brought up in the OP have been debunked and the reason is very clear on why this thread was started, and fun fact it’s not DJ that’s the issue

I've stated outright why this thread was started: Death's Judgment should be susceptible to the counterplay already existent in the game for projectiles. The other (reliable) counterplay currently available is dodging/evading or activating an invuln. Terrain and LOS are situational at best.

The tell on Death's Judgment doesn't mean it should be unblockable or it would've been unblockable all along (and every hard-hitting skill in the game with an obvious tell would also be unblockable by that logic).

Now it has Requirements that added more counter play that it didn’t have before so again it is perfectly fine, there is more than enough counterplay to it in game.

Also all the claims brought in the OP to state why it shouldn’t be Unblockable have been debunked, so what’s the reason now it shouldn’t be Unblockable?

Is it the highest base damage Unblockable skill in game? No

Is it Spammable? Not even close

Does it have a plethora of counterplay? Yes, tons.

If anything the Plethora Of Projectile hate and Blocks needs more counterplay and guess what here it is more counterplay to the amount of cancerous defense spam in game.

Again it’s perfectly clear where the issue lies and it’s not DJ

1) It is the hardest hitting unblockable skill in the game. You've mentioned Phoenix and Prime Light Beam as examples of skills that do more damage. They don't.compared to 0 malice, they do. you can avoid most malice build up with reflect/block.Prime Light Beam (at least in a mix of marauder/berserker) hits around 6-8k against most targets. I've never seen Phoenix do even that much. Maybe it can with weaver's damage modifiers, but weaver doesn't exactly have easy access to Phoenix.i did play fresh air ele quite a while before HoT and did oneshot alot of people with phoenix, its one of the oldest hard hitting unblockables in the game. used to hit up to like 8 times if you placed it correctly but now i think got nerfed to 3 times, still does tons of damage. this is not a question of experience but stimple skill facts.many DE were building every trait and utility etc to oneshot with one single skill, they then rarely used DJ before malice is up - cause too much ini before patch and would consume malice now. if you let a full oneshot speced holo use prime light beam and a oneshot speced DE use unmarked DJ against the same target, then prime light beam will deal way more damage.The scenario of the deadeye having 0 malice against a target doesn't happen with MI. With just the one stack of malice, DJ will outstrip PLB. Not to mention PLB's 60 sec cd. As to Phoenix, it does take good positioning on the part of the ele for optimal use. Core ele fresh air is the only spec with good access to it, hence why when nerfs to fresh air weaver were proposed, people asked for (and didn't get) buffs to Phoenix to compensate core for the nerfs it got because of fresh air weaver.2) Malice builds much quicker than the old malice and the new M7 refunds most of the ini spent building that malice. Spam is very much rewarded by the new malice.yes if you can reliably hit the stealth attack. if they kept CB and gave it increasing amount of boon corrupts based on malice and kept DJ were it was, then we would have a way more reliable way to reset malice as you can spamm CB in stealth till you hit as you dont get revealed and DJ while visible as you dont need stealth.Death's Judgment as rifle's Stealth Attack was a poor choice, I agree. You can keep trying to land a MBackstab until you hit so long as your stealth lasts/you don't get revealed. Whereas Death's Judgment will always need its revealed aspect since the deadeye would otherwise not get revealed until the hit landed, which I'm pretty sure would mean the tell would get covered by stealth (if it works the same as other flashy attacks used when stealthed: Worldly Impact, Holo Shockwave, etc).why does DJ need the revealed aspect if MBackstab hits for more without any tells and even without tells you could still dodge the projectile, MBackstab you need to predict. and here you assume i run dagger on the other set. i currently run s/d + rifle, s/d stealth attack while more reliable the malice bonus is trash and DJ while the malice bonus is fine is super unreliable.I'm not assuming anything about what you run. I'm speaking from my own current setup on deadeye. MBackstab is tricky to land, but there's no risk of consuming my malice from using it unless I accidentally hit from the front. As to Death's Judgment and its reveal, that honestly seems to be Anet's design of it. A hard-hitting projectile with an obvious tell the thief starts from stealth. As hard-hitting projectiles go, Kill Shot probably does more damage now and with less of a tell, but the warr can't start it from stealth. I don't think they'll give deadeye a way to cover DJ's tell with stealth.3) The addition of needing stealth for Death's Judgment didn't add any counterplay. A deadeye stealthing has always been a cue that Death's Judgment is likely incoming.
Stealth still isn't a guarantee a Death's Judgment will follow
. A deadeye's high access to stealth and malice lingering for 30 secs or until the shot gets taken will always mean the deadeye has more opportunities to fire Death's Judgment than most opponents have to dodge or evade.a ranger switching on longbow is not a gurantee rapidfire will follow - pls nerf.i think you discard the stealth requirement way too easily, therefor dont understand how much of a limitation that is. fighting average joe this doesnt matter as they wouldnt dodge 1 DJ anyway, but people able to avoid 1 DJ for those you used the 1. as bait and then the 2nd dj to kill but now you cant suprise them with 2nd DJ. as soon as you enter stealth they will expect the possibility. while stealthed they dont have to focus on anything else anyway.A deadeye can re-enter stealth more than most professions can dodge or evade. It is far more punishing to miss with Death's Judgment after the rework than it was previously, but gaining the malice back can be done quickly and with skills that aren't costly as far as ini is concerned. Blocks/reflects can slow the malice gain, but the deadeye needs only for 3 crits to get through to be back at max malice.you dont lose malice on a missed DJ, that is an issue for the deadeye as he wont profit from the ini gain through m7 if he cant reset malice.I hadn't missed with any DJ's yet and had been assuming malice would be lost with the shot regardless of it hitting (since the new malice feels so much like adrenaline for warriors), but you're right: a missed DJ is only punishing in the sense of the loss of the ini/boon gain from M7. The boons are nice, but I don't know how much the ini is needed at max malice as you don't need to spend more ini to build malice at that point.4) There is already existent, active counterplay to blocks/reflects. Death's Judgment existing as innately unblockable is a passive (something the game does for you) on the damage side of things.would you be fine to remove unblockable DJ but replace MI with a trait giving unblockable during reveal? then its not innately unblockable, then its unblockable cause the DE is revealed!

A trait giving unblockable during reveal as a replacement for MI would make much more sense than Death's Judgment having that unblockable being freely given. Such a trait would also have nice synergy with Revealed Training.and it would help with malice build up, no longer reflect/block spamm to avoid the build up hits - awesome!

I'm always a fan of synergy in builds. My previous deadeye build used Unforgiving to make Pistol Whip rather.... well, unforgiving whenever I caught someone with it.@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Deadeye vanishes from sight? Best have a dodge ready. It's well signaled and easy to dodge if you can notice a laser beam line. And if you can't well.. the signal is the Deadeye vanishing. Its signalling, 'Get ready to dodge'. The laser is just a bonus.

I've had fellow thieves dodge it a fair few times. Forced me to mix up my timing. Good play - bait/baited.

What you can't do is rely on passive defence. And that's great - time to dedicate some focus on the Deadeye during the fight.

Most blocks/reflects/projectile destruction are triggered actively by the player and are not passive. All I'm after is more active play on both sides of the fight: deadeye and the one marked. A deadeye not needing to pay attention to blocks/reflects when using their burst skill promotes braindead gameplay, gameplay that relies on the passive of Death's Judgment being innately unblockable.

But there are a lot of other counterplay already available sorry, oi are complaining about a non issue, again go read above of all the counterplay and the massive obvious tells on the skill it’s self.

It’s ok for skills to be able to counterplay other skills, it’s a fact of the game and why Blocks and Projectile hate exist and why there are allowed to be Unblockable skills to bypass those, it’s actually healthy design.

So far all claims brought up in the OP have been debunked and the reason is very clear on why this thread was started, and fun fact it’s not DJ that’s the issue

I've stated outright why this thread was started: Death's Judgment should be susceptible to the counterplay already existent in the game for projectiles. The other (reliable) counterplay currently available is dodging/evading or activating an invuln. Terrain and LOS are situational at best.

The tell on Death's Judgment doesn't mean it should be unblockable or it would've been unblockable all along (and every hard-hitting skill in the game with an obvious tell would also be unblockable by that logic).

Now it has Requirements that added more counter play that it didn’t have before so again it is perfectly fine, there is more than enough counterplay to it in game.

Also all the claims brought in the OP to state why it shouldn’t be Unblockable have been debunked, so what’s the reason now it shouldn’t be Unblockable?

Is it the highest base damage Unblockable skill in game? No

Is it Spammable? Not even close

Does it have a plethora of counterplay? Yes, tons.

If anything the Plethora Of Projectile hate and Blocks needs more counterplay and guess what here it is more counterplay to the amount of cancerous defense spam in game.

Again it’s perfectly clear where the issue lies and it’s not DJ

1) It is the hardest hitting unblockable skill in the game. You've mentioned Phoenix and Prime Light Beam as examples of skills that do more damage. They don't.2) Malice builds much quicker than the old malice and the new M7 refunds most of the ini spent building that malice. Spam is very much rewarded by the new malice.3) The addition of needing stealth for Death's Judgment didn't add any counterplay. A deadeye stealthing has always been a cue that Death's Judgment is likely incoming. Stealth still isn't a guarantee a Death's Judgment will follow. A deadeye's high access to stealth and malice lingering for 30 secs or until the shot gets taken will always mean the deadeye has more opportunities to fire Death's Judgment than most opponents have to dodge or evade.4) There is already existent, active counterplay to blocks/reflects. Death's Judgment existing as innately unblockable is a passive (something the game does for you) on the damage side of things.

1) Your OP and main claim stated that DJ was the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, again that’s your claim not mine, it was debunked. Here’s your claim:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game.

2) DJ can’t be spammed since players have to break up the use of DJ by using quite a few other skills in between every successful DJ use, to have an effective DJ, again might want to look up the definition of spamming in regards to video games, this claim was debunked.

3) the addition of the Stealth requirement does add counterplay, it’s called Reveal skills, can’t use Stealth Attacks if you are Revealed and not in Stealth, funny how that works. And still has the plethora of other Counterplay available outside of that.

4) again as I stated because of the cancerous amount of blocks and Projectile hate it was needed for more counterplay to those types defense spam and here we have Anet ensuring Rifle Stealth Attack Stayed an Unblockable.

Again all claims in the OP for why DJ needs to not be Unblockable have been debunked, and it’s crystal clear what the issue is, hint it’s not DJ.My main claim has never been "DJ is the hardest hitting unblockable even without malice." My main claim has always been that DJ does not need to be unblockable (it's even the title of the thread). No thief is going to fire DJ without malice (and MI guarantees the first stack), so arguments about DJ not being the hardest hitter if you take out the malice are always going to exist on paper only.

Don't pretend Reveal has ever been a counter to deadeye. Not unless it's applied in enough stacks that the Revealed cannot be removed through Shadow Meld (and Magebane Tether is the only skill/trait in the game to currently apply more than 1 stack of Revealed).

You don't need a free unblockable to counter reflects/blocks. Not unless you have zero awareness of both your enemy's skills/cooldowns and your own.

What should worry you Blaqie is that I tend to be right about what needs to be changed about deadeye. They fixed DJ so malice could no longer beef up the shot regardless of the target hit with it. Adding unblockable while also making DJ a faster cast that doesn't require kneel was a poor design choice. If Anet does agree with me, you'll actually need to learn how to play around blocks/reflects just like every pistol/pistol thief, rifle warr, and longbow ranger.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:No thief is going to fire DJ without malice (and MI guarantees the first stack), so arguments about DJ not being the hardest hitter if you take out the malice are always going to exist on paper only.

i do if i dont have malice yet and my opponent rotates blocks/reflects while there is too much aoe stuff around em to swap set and go melee. in those momente where i used CB before the patch. CB was in such a situation alot more reliable. without gaining any other unblockable on rifle or with traits, there needs to remain unblockable on DJ. moving it would be oke but not outright removing it.Don't pretend Reveal has ever been a counter to deadeye. Not unless it's applied in enough stacks that the Revealed cannot be removed through Shadow Meld (and Magebane Tether is the only skill/trait in the game to currently apply more than 1 stack of Revealed).

any reveal skill/trait has lower cooldown then shadow meld. so in the long run those reveal stuff wins if applied reliable.You don't need a free unblockable to counter reflects/blocks. Not unless you have zero awareness of both your enemy's skills/cooldowns and your own.

depends on what you fight, many mesmers here in EU run on evade mirror thats pretty much perma reflect. i used to kil them with backstabs or CB, now with DJ wich is a lot less reliable, 100% uptime has nothing to do with awareness.What should worry you Blaqie is that I tend to be right about what needs to be changed about deadeye. They fixed DJ so malice could no longer beef up the shot regardless of the target hit with it. Adding unblockable while also making DJ a faster cast that doesn't require kneel was a poor design choice. If Anet does agree with me, you'll actually need to learn how to play around blocks/reflects just like every pistol/pistol thief, rifle warr, and longbow ranger.

ranger and warrior both have access to unblockable buffs with a duration rather then 1 hit only . thief not, wich is a major reason why p/p thief was never actual serious build that people didnt laugh at.

also:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:I hadn't missed with any DJ's yet and had been assuming malice would be lost with the shot regardless of it hitting

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Deadeye vanishes from sight? Best have a dodge ready. It's well signaled and easy to dodge if you can notice a laser beam line. And if you can't well.. the signal is the Deadeye vanishing. Its signalling, 'Get ready to dodge'. The laser is just a bonus.

I've had fellow thieves dodge it a fair few times. Forced me to mix up my timing. Good play - bait/baited.

What you can't do is rely on passive defence. And that's great - time to dedicate some focus on the Deadeye during the fight.

Most blocks/reflects/projectile destruction are triggered actively by the player and are not passive. All I'm after is more active play on both sides of the fight: deadeye and the one marked. A deadeye not needing to pay attention to blocks/reflects when using their burst skill promotes braindead gameplay, gameplay that relies on the passive of Death's Judgment being innately unblockable.

But there are a lot of other counterplay already available sorry, oi are complaining about a non issue, again go read above of all the counterplay and the massive obvious tells on the skill it’s self.

It’s ok for skills to be able to counterplay other skills, it’s a fact of the game and why Blocks and Projectile hate exist and why there are allowed to be Unblockable skills to bypass those, it’s actually healthy design.

So far all claims brought up in the OP have been debunked and the reason is very clear on why this thread was started, and fun fact it’s not DJ that’s the issue

I've stated outright why this thread was started: Death's Judgment should be susceptible to the counterplay already existent in the game for projectiles. The other (reliable) counterplay currently available is dodging/evading or activating an invuln. Terrain and LOS are situational at best.

The tell on Death's Judgment doesn't mean it should be unblockable or it would've been unblockable all along (and every hard-hitting skill in the game with an obvious tell would also be unblockable by that logic).

Now it has Requirements that added more counter play that it didn’t have before so again it is perfectly fine, there is more than enough counterplay to it in game.

Also all the claims brought in the OP to state why it shouldn’t be Unblockable have been debunked, so what’s the reason now it shouldn’t be Unblockable?

Is it the highest base damage Unblockable skill in game? No

Is it Spammable? Not even close

Does it have a plethora of counterplay? Yes, tons.

If anything the Plethora Of Projectile hate and Blocks needs more counterplay and guess what here it is more counterplay to the amount of cancerous defense spam in game.

Again it’s perfectly clear where the issue lies and it’s not DJ

1) It is the hardest hitting unblockable skill in the game. You've mentioned Phoenix and Prime Light Beam as examples of skills that do more damage. They don't.compared to 0 malice, they do. you can avoid most malice build up with reflect/block.Prime Light Beam (at least in a mix of marauder/berserker) hits around 6-8k against most targets. I've never seen Phoenix do even that much. Maybe it can with weaver's damage modifiers, but weaver doesn't exactly have easy access to Phoenix.i did play fresh air ele quite a while before HoT and did oneshot alot of people with phoenix, its one of the oldest hard hitting unblockables in the game. used to hit up to like 8 times if you placed it correctly but now i think got nerfed to 3 times, still does tons of damage. this is not a question of experience but stimple skill facts.many DE were building every trait and utility etc to oneshot with one single skill, they then rarely used DJ before malice is up - cause too much ini before patch and would consume malice now. if you let a full oneshot speced holo use prime light beam and a oneshot speced DE use unmarked DJ against the same target, then prime light beam will deal way more damage.The scenario of the deadeye having 0 malice against a target doesn't happen with MI. With just the one stack of malice, DJ will outstrip PLB. Not to mention PLB's 60 sec cd. As to Phoenix, it does take good positioning on the part of the ele for optimal use. Core ele fresh air is the only spec with good access to it, hence why when nerfs to fresh air weaver were proposed, people asked for (and didn't get) buffs to Phoenix to compensate core for the nerfs it got because of fresh air weaver.2) Malice builds much quicker than the old malice and the new M7 refunds most of the ini spent building that malice. Spam is very much rewarded by the new malice.yes if you can reliably hit the stealth attack. if they kept CB and gave it increasing amount of boon corrupts based on malice and kept DJ were it was, then we would have a way more reliable way to reset malice as you can spamm CB in stealth till you hit as you dont get revealed and DJ while visible as you dont need stealth.Death's Judgment as rifle's Stealth Attack was a poor choice, I agree. You can keep trying to land a MBackstab until you hit so long as your stealth lasts/you don't get revealed. Whereas Death's Judgment will always need its revealed aspect since the deadeye would otherwise not get revealed until the hit landed, which I'm pretty sure would mean the tell would get covered by stealth (if it works the same as other flashy attacks used when stealthed: Worldly Impact, Holo Shockwave, etc).why does DJ need the revealed aspect if MBackstab hits for more without any tells and even without tells you could still dodge the projectile, MBackstab you need to predict. and here you assume i run dagger on the other set. i currently run s/d + rifle, s/d stealth attack while more reliable the malice bonus is trash and DJ while the malice bonus is fine is super unreliable.I'm not assuming anything about what you run. I'm speaking from my own current setup on deadeye. MBackstab is tricky to land, but there's no risk of consuming my malice from using it unless I accidentally hit from the front. As to Death's Judgment and its reveal, that honestly seems to be Anet's design of it. A hard-hitting projectile with an obvious tell the thief starts from stealth. As hard-hitting projectiles go, Kill Shot probably does more damage now and with less of a tell, but the warr can't start it from stealth. I don't think they'll give deadeye a way to cover DJ's tell with stealth.3) The addition of needing stealth for Death's Judgment didn't add any counterplay. A deadeye stealthing has always been a cue that Death's Judgment is likely incoming.
Stealth still isn't a guarantee a Death's Judgment will follow
. A deadeye's high access to stealth and malice lingering for 30 secs or until the shot gets taken will always mean the deadeye has more opportunities to fire Death's Judgment than most opponents have to dodge or evade.a ranger switching on longbow is not a gurantee rapidfire will follow - pls nerf.i think you discard the stealth requirement way too easily, therefor dont understand how much of a limitation that is. fighting average joe this doesnt matter as they wouldnt dodge 1 DJ anyway, but people able to avoid 1 DJ for those you used the 1. as bait and then the 2nd dj to kill but now you cant suprise them with 2nd DJ. as soon as you enter stealth they will expect the possibility. while stealthed they dont have to focus on anything else anyway.A deadeye can re-enter stealth more than most professions can dodge or evade. It is far more punishing to miss with Death's Judgment after the rework than it was previously, but gaining the malice back can be done quickly and with skills that aren't costly as far as ini is concerned. Blocks/reflects can slow the malice gain, but the deadeye needs only for 3 crits to get through to be back at max malice.you dont lose malice on a missed DJ, that is an issue for the deadeye as he wont profit from the ini gain through m7 if he cant reset malice.I hadn't missed with any DJ's yet and had been assuming malice would be lost with the shot regardless of it hitting (since the new malice feels so much like adrenaline for warriors), but you're right: a missed DJ is only punishing in the sense of the loss of the ini/boon gain from M7. The boons are nice, but I don't know how much the ini is needed at max malice as you don't need to spend more ini to build malice at that point.4) There is already existent, active counterplay to blocks/reflects. Death's Judgment existing as innately unblockable is a passive (something the game does for you) on the damage side of things.would you be fine to remove unblockable DJ but replace MI with a trait giving unblockable during reveal? then its not innately unblockable, then its unblockable cause the DE is revealed!

A trait giving unblockable during reveal as a replacement for MI would make much more sense than Death's Judgment having that unblockable being freely given. Such a trait would also have nice synergy with Revealed Training.and it would help with malice build up, no longer reflect/block spamm to avoid the build up hits - awesome!

I'm always a fan of synergy in builds. My previous deadeye build used Unforgiving to make Pistol Whip rather.... well, unforgiving whenever I caught someone with it.@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

@Scud.5067 said:Deadeye vanishes from sight? Best have a dodge ready. It's well signaled and easy to dodge if you can notice a laser beam line. And if you can't well.. the signal is the Deadeye vanishing. Its signalling, 'Get ready to dodge'. The laser is just a bonus.

I've had fellow thieves dodge it a fair few times. Forced me to mix up my timing. Good play - bait/baited.

What you can't do is rely on passive defence. And that's great - time to dedicate some focus on the Deadeye during the fight.

Most blocks/reflects/projectile destruction are triggered actively by the player and are not passive. All I'm after is more active play on both sides of the fight: deadeye and the one marked. A deadeye not needing to pay attention to blocks/reflects when using their burst skill promotes braindead gameplay, gameplay that relies on the passive of Death's Judgment being innately unblockable.

But there are a lot of other counterplay already available sorry, oi are complaining about a non issue, again go read above of all the counterplay and the massive obvious tells on the skill it’s self.

It’s ok for skills to be able to counterplay other skills, it’s a fact of the game and why Blocks and Projectile hate exist and why there are allowed to be Unblockable skills to bypass those, it’s actually healthy design.

So far all claims brought up in the OP have been debunked and the reason is very clear on why this thread was started, and fun fact it’s not DJ that’s the issue

I've stated outright why this thread was started: Death's Judgment should be susceptible to the counterplay already existent in the game for projectiles. The other (reliable) counterplay currently available is dodging/evading or activating an invuln. Terrain and LOS are situational at best.

The tell on Death's Judgment doesn't mean it should be unblockable or it would've been unblockable all along (and every hard-hitting skill in the game with an obvious tell would also be unblockable by that logic).

Now it has Requirements that added more counter play that it didn’t have before so again it is perfectly fine, there is more than enough counterplay to it in game.

Also all the claims brought in the OP to state why it shouldn’t be Unblockable have been debunked, so what’s the reason now it shouldn’t be Unblockable?

Is it the highest base damage Unblockable skill in game? No

Is it Spammable? Not even close

Does it have a plethora of counterplay? Yes, tons.

If anything the Plethora Of Projectile hate and Blocks needs more counterplay and guess what here it is more counterplay to the amount of cancerous defense spam in game.

Again it’s perfectly clear where the issue lies and it’s not DJ

1) It is the hardest hitting unblockable skill in the game. You've mentioned Phoenix and Prime Light Beam as examples of skills that do more damage. They don't.2) Malice builds much quicker than the old malice and the new M7 refunds most of the ini spent building that malice. Spam is very much rewarded by the new malice.3) The addition of needing stealth for Death's Judgment didn't add any counterplay. A deadeye stealthing has always been a cue that Death's Judgment is likely incoming. Stealth still isn't a guarantee a Death's Judgment will follow. A deadeye's high access to stealth and malice lingering for 30 secs or until the shot gets taken will always mean the deadeye has more opportunities to fire Death's Judgment than most opponents have to dodge or evade.4) There is already existent, active counterplay to blocks/reflects. Death's Judgment existing as innately unblockable is a passive (something the game does for you) on the damage side of things.

1) Your OP and main claim stated that DJ was the hardest hitting skill when not considering Malice, again that’s your claim not mine, it was debunked. Here’s your claim:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:It doesn't even take any malice for Death's Judgment to be the hardest hitting innately unblockable skill in the game.

2) DJ can’t be spammed since players have to break up the use of DJ by using quite a few other skills in between every successful DJ use, to have an effective DJ, again might want to look up the definition of spamming in regards to video games, this claim was debunked.

3) the addition of the Stealth requirement does add counterplay, it’s called Reveal skills, can’t use Stealth Attacks if you are Revealed and not in Stealth, funny how that works. And still has the plethora of other Counterplay available outside of that.

4) again as I stated because of the cancerous amount of blocks and Projectile hate it was needed for more counterplay to those types defense spam and here we have Anet ensuring Rifle Stealth Attack Stayed an Unblockable.

Again all claims in the OP for why DJ needs to not be Unblockable have been debunked, and it’s crystal clear what the issue is, hint it’s not DJ.My main claim has never been "DJ is the hardest hitting unblockable even without malice." My main claim has always been that DJ does not need to be unblockable (it's even the title of the thread). No thief is going to fire DJ without malice (and MI guarantees the first stack), so arguments about DJ not being the hardest hitter if you take out the malice are always going to exist on paper only.

Don't pretend Reveal has ever been a counter to deadeye. Not unless it's applied in enough stacks that the Revealed cannot be removed through Shadow Meld (and Magebane Tether is the only skill/trait in the game to currently apply more than 1 stack of Revealed).

You don't need a free unblockable to counter reflects/blocks. Not unless you have zero awareness of both your enemy's skills/cooldowns and your own.

What should worry you Blaqie is that I tend to be right about what needs to be changed about deadeye. They fixed DJ so malice could no longer beef up the shot regardless of the target hit with it. Adding unblockable while also making DJ a faster cast that doesn't require kneel was a poor design choice. If Anet does agree with me, you'll actually need to learn how to play around blocks/reflects just like every pistol/pistol thief, rifle warr, and longbow ranger.

Again all of your claims in the OP have been fully Debunked, DJ isn’t the hardest hitting Unblockable skill without Malice, It’s not spammable by any definition of the term in regards to Video games, it has a plethora of counterplay, no matter how many times you claim it’s not, Reveal is counterplay to Stealth and Stealth Attacks, claimed no other Stealth Attack was Unblockable but Cursed Bullet was, claiming DJ is a free skill when it requires the use of Resources and other skills to even gain access to and to even deal any respectable damage, in an innately extremely small window of opportunity to utilize the skill.

The game needed more counterplay to the Block and Projectile Hate spam guess what here it is.

Sorry I don’t play Rifle DE or DE in general outside of testing in GH arena after any large patches actually, I can’t stand the clunkiness of the kit, I prefer to play different specs or Classes in General so Yeah trying to say I would have to learn how to play around Projectile hate is laughable at best.

So please let’s get some better claims to why DJ shouldn’t be Unblockable to replace the currently debunked ones.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:No thief is going to fire DJ without malice (and MI guarantees the first stack), so arguments about DJ not being the hardest hitter if you take out the malice are always going to exist on paper only.

i do if i dont have malice yet and my opponent rotates blocks/reflects while there is too much aoe stuff around em to swap set and go melee. in those momente where i used CB before the patch. CB was in such a situation alot more reliable. without gaining any other unblockable on rifle or with traits, there needs to remain unblockable on DJ. moving it would be oke but not outright removing it.Any other unblockable on rifle for deadeye would make more sense than sticking unblockable on DJ. Rifle deadeye doesn't need its hardest hitting move as an unblockable.Don't pretend Reveal has ever been a counter to deadeye. Not unless it's applied in enough stacks that the Revealed cannot be removed through Shadow Meld (and Magebane Tether is the only skill/trait in the game to currently apply more than 1 stack of Revealed).

any reveal skill/trait has lower cooldown then shadow meld. so in the long run those reveal stuff wins if applied reliable.Reapplying reveal depends on the profession and most cannot apply it more than once (or even once) in a typical fight.You don't need a free unblockable to counter reflects/blocks. Not unless you have zero awareness of both your enemy's skills/cooldowns and your own.

depends on what you fight, many mesmers here in EU run on evade mirror thats pretty much perma reflect. i used to kil them with backstabs or CB, now with DJ wich is a lot less reliable, 100% uptime has nothing to do with awareness.There's always going to be hard counters/difficult fights to any playstyle. Mesmers can have high reflect uptime through Evasive Mirror, assuming they're able to evade attacks to trigger the trait. It wouldn't surprise me at all if mesmers running Dueling (which is probably a good number: it's a good line for a number of builds) have too high of a reflect uptime. Soulbeast is the opposite in that it honestly has too high of an unblockable uptime if it chooses to chain together Signet of the Hunt, Unstoppable Union, and Call of the Wild, 14 secs where blocking/reflecting against the soulbeast does nothing.What should worry you Blaqie is that I tend to be right about what needs to be changed about deadeye. They fixed DJ so malice could no longer beef up the shot regardless of the target hit with it. Adding unblockable while also making DJ a faster cast that doesn't require kneel was a poor design choice. If Anet does agree with me, you'll actually need to learn how to play around blocks/reflects just like every pistol/pistol thief, rifle warr, and longbow ranger.

ranger and warrior both have access to unblockable buffs with a duration rather then 1 hit only . thief not, wich is a major reason why p/p thief was never actual serious build that people didnt laugh at.

The deadeye rework could have included an unblockable trait instead of putting unblockable on DJ innately, and that would've required more skillful/thoughtful play on the part of the deadeye. It could've even been in the Master tier instead of Payback (I'm not sure who Payback is good for, maybe PVE), making it so the tradeoff would either be an unblockable buff or the stealth of Silent Scope or the damage buff plus boon duration of Premeditation.

also:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:I hadn't missed with any DJ's yet and had been assuming malice would be lost with the shot regardless of it hitting

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

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@MUDse.7623 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.
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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

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I guess I'll repeat what I said.

I would say making DJ unblockable is the only good thing thing that came from the rework. It should have been unblockable from the beginning because there is already too much projectile hate in this game as is. The truth of the matter is GW2 is a melee lovers dream with all the range hate with blocks/reflects. It needed more range unblockables to even the playing field.

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable and can be used often with how quickly the new malice ramps up with little ini lost on the part of the deadeye with the ini refund from M7. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

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BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

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Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those damn Sand Lions would fuck up any gunslinger.

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

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BlaqueFyre.5678

BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Ah I see, still have nothing to back up the claims in the OP, got it. Go see all the previous posts of mine to see the facts that refute all your claims, again DJ is fine, and facts trump feelings.

Still so pcrystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

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Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

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Curennos.9307

Curennos.9307

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It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

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Shadowcat.2680

Shadowcat.2680

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@Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

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BlaqueFyre.5678

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@Shadowcat.2680 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

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Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

Leo Schrodingers Cat.2497

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@BlaqueFyre.5678 said:

makes me really wonder if you did play this alot and even once against a half competent player.I tested out the new deadeye rifle a good bit and got in the habit of cancelling the shot if it looked like it would miss/be dodged. The deadeye keeping the malice until the shot lands in some fashion is an even lazier design than what I'd been assuming.

cancelling the shot still reveals you unless you didnt even start the shot so there is no point in it really, costs nothing and if it doesnt hit wont be differnt to cancelling.

No resource spent on a missed shot is not a good design on Anet's part. Add unblockable to that and there's no reason not to fire the shot and hope for the best, enemy cooldowns apart from dodges used won't matter for the most part. The most punishing enemy cooldown in that case is an invuln to force the deadeye to waste its malice and get nothing for it.

Stealth Attacks have a 1 second CD which tied with the innate 3 sec Reveal on failed or successfull hits means more skills/resources need to be used to re-enter stealth and setup another shot.

Those pesky facts again............................@Shadowcat.2680 said:I don't personally find stealth to be enough of a trade-off for the unblockable. Not when a deadeye has much more access to stealth than other professions have to evading/dodging, the only reliable ways to avoid the shot now without burning an invuln. LOS tends to be situational. Useful but the stealthed opponent typically has the upper hand when it comes to positioning.

Again there is a plethora of Counterplay, hence why they have Things such as Invulns, Psuedo Invulns, Dodges, Evades, Reveals, Blinds, Interrupts/CC, LoS, again so many options available.

The game is built around the use of Skills, Dodges and Positioning for its combat and they provide So many options to use.

Again those pesky facts.

I don't see a point in repeating myself ad nauseam to you. Especially not when the post you quote is already an answer to your claim about counterplay. I'm not going to hold your hand through reading comprehension.

Again there is a plethora of counterplay available, just because you say it doesn’t exist doesn’t mean it’s true, the facts stand, and again the DJ provides counterplay to the cancerous amount of blocks and projectile hate, so please every claim you have made so far has been debunked by the actual facts, every single time.

It’s crystal clear what the issue is and it’s not DJ.

You can shout "debunked" until you're blue in the face while making blatantly erroneous statements, such as citing Cursed Bullet as the other unblockable Stealth Attack when Cursed Bullet has been removed from the game.

The counterplay to Death's Judgement is far lesser after the rework than it was pre-patch. Any counterplay you can name was applicable to the old DJ in addition to blocks/reflects/projectile destruction.

Dodge or die has always been a flawed design on Anet's part. Adding unblockable in addition to speeding up the cast time and removing the kneel requirement does not make for healthy gameplay.

Again I showed all the facts that debunked all of your claims in the OP, go read up again it’s quite clear and obvious, with reasons why they are debunked, just because you claim something(without anything to back it up) doesn’t mean it’s true. And again I wasn’t the made all those erroneous claims of being the hardest hitting Unblockable without malice, there not being any other Unblockable stealth attack(there was one and Anet made sure that the stealth attack on that weapon remained Unblockable), it being spammable(go check the definition), it loosing much of its counterplay(the majority of the counterplay remains, and they added a new one)

Reveal wasn’t counterplay before the rework since DJ was completely available outside of stealth, so they added counterplay.

Again just because you say that there is no counterplay doesn’t mean that you are correct when I easily listed every form of counterplay above, and the fact that the plethora blocks and projectile hate needed counterplay, and lo and behold there it is.

Again every claim you made has been proven easily false repeatedly with the facts to back it up. so please if your claims haven’t been proven false let’s see the facts to back them up, should be simple enough if they are true claims, right?

Again it so crystal clear what the issue is, fun fact it’s not DJ.

You keep saying "it's clear what the issue is and it's not DJ." What then is the issue?

This thread addresses Death's Judgment being too strong as an unblockable. It is potent as an unblockable, more so than other unblockables in the game especially when cooldowns are brought into the consideration and when considering how often a deadeye can ramp up malice to take the shot thanks to the ini refund from M7 promoting the spam of cheap attacks (ini cost wise) to build malice to full before rinsing and repeating.

We all no what the issue is it doesn’t need to be stated!

And again DJ is kept in check by the plethora of counterplay it has, the Large Damage Nerf it received, the added restriction on when it can be cast, the giant and obvious tells, and the fact that the cancerous amount of block spam and projectile hate in game needed more counterplay.

And again all your claims that fueled you to make this Thread have been proven false, so again it is perfectly fine as it is and you have yet to bring up and valid points on why it shouldn’t be Unblockable.

As I've said, you claiming something has been disproven doesn't make it so. DJ is incredibly potent as an unblockable. It shouldn't be the Stealth Attack on rifle, not if Anet is committed to keeping unblockable on that slot, but Anet has shot themselves in the foot with this malice rework and with a number of the new Stealth Attacks.

You've also been trying to imply (badly) that this thread was started out of some inability on my part to counter the reworked rifle deadeye. I play high mobility/high damage builds. A deadeye using rifle is never a threat in a 1v1 or even if it tries to +1 a 1v1 as I'll typically have the mobility/evasion to avoid the DJ before counterbursting the deadeye. Just because I happen to play something that does effectively counter rifle deadeye doesn't make me blind to how easy the weapon/spec is to play against anything that is more reliant on block/reflect or doesn't have the mobility/range to counterburst before the deadeye goes back into stealth.

DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.

My aren’t just claims, I provided facts that backup and counter every unsubstantiated claim you have made about DJ, go look at all your claims then look at my posts, it’s very enlightening, again provide some facts to prove your claims, it actually helps when making an argument if it’s based in facts and not how you feel.

And again there is still a Plethora Of Counterplay to DJ, doesn’t matter if you claim there isn’t the proof is all around, see my previous comments for all the lists of ways to counterplay, it’s enlightening.

Remember it’s best to back up claims with facts not feels and personal bias, otherwise just see previous comments to keep disproving all claims you made in the OP and subsequent posts.

It’s still crystal clear what the issue is.

Look to the posts from more knowledgeable thief players (such as the posts about ini regeneration) if you're after enlightenment about thieves. You've already stated you don't play the spec and you don't seem that knowledgeable about it.

@Shadowcat.2680 said:An unblockable DJ cuts through the counterplay of a good number of professions. Hard counters will always exist for any build, but designing something with too little counterplay (such as scourge in melee range at the release of PoF) is not the best choice for balance on Anet's part.Why are we suddenly bringing up hard counters - when there really isn't a hard counter in the game provided to players?

NPCs? Sure. A boss made of those kitten Sand Lions would kitten up any gunslinger.

I don't know how NPCs are relevant in a discussion about unblockable. The discussion is largely about counterplay. A hard counter is a build another build struggles against mechanically for a particular reason. Scrappers were a hard counter to thieves reliant on stealth in HOT.

Dodge or die (the current design of an unblockable DJ) has hard counters only with the builds capable of evading outside of the dodge mechanic, and only if those builds can counterburst before the deadeye is back in stealth, still possessing full malice with which to take the shot again.

DJ does not hit as hard as it used to after the malice rework, but it can be fired much more often with the spammy nature (it rewards spamming low ini skills) of the new malice and the new ini refund from M7.

Where are your facts? No seriously please show us. And saying them from a scenario you created from your head is not fact. It's not even opinion.

The only facts on a forum for a game are those that come from the developers. Players have speculation/anecdote based on tests/experience at best.

The facts in this thread come from the patch notes. Anything else is speculation or opinion.

@Curennos.9307 said:It takes no thought on the DE's part to get use out of the unblockable part of DJ. I don't like that I can exert no effort whatsoever and counter something that's the result of (usually) a 20+ sec skill.

If there's a way to make the shot go through stuff like guardian shield 5, ele air..4 I think? but NOT things like warrior shield 5, then I thinThink? Would be a fair trade/adjustment.

Alternatively, it takes little to zero effort on the part of...well, anyone, to make use of body blocking in order to effectively nullify the DE's 'finishing move'. It can even be totally blocked by a Mesmer clone (which has what, 2kish health? Little more? To totally negate a 10k+ dmg skill). I'm such situations (there are many), the effort -> reward: effort -> counter ratio is extremely unbalanced. Ideally the unblockable would be removed in exchange for Pierce (and maybe a boon strip? >.>).

Even more ideally, there would be a 'we guarantee that your finishing shot will reach the target. Beyond that we guarantee nothing' way of thought. So your shot would go through the (I think) ridiculous amount of projectile hate in the game, but you would still have to worry about it getting reflected or blocked by more...i don't know how to put it, more 'personal' blocks? War shield 5, engi shield 5, aegis (maybe- lot of aegis flying around lately with support guards), ranger sword 4, etc. But you wouldn't have all of your efforts negated by a all the total projectile denial skills infesting the game.

They could also balance this out by changing kneel rifle 4 a bit to give some melee protection at the cost of ranged protection. Spawns smoke field, absorbs -any- number attacks. I love the smoke field and blocking all projectiles from a direction, and it's nice to have a bit of something to cover up weaknesses, but I think it less covers up and more...totslly negates.

Projectile hate, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. It's too simplistic as it is, that everything is considered a block on equal footing (regardless of how the tooltip reads), making unblockable the only pair of scissors for paper in that game of rock/paper/scissors.

I miss the old risk of DJ, the chance that something could block or (especially) reflect a shot. Both warr and engi shield have decent cooldowns for their reflects, but it is no longer rewarding to time that reflect well against Death's Judgment.

I do think pierce would've been far more useful on the attack than unblockable. Anet already made it so the damage bonus gets applied only to the marked target, so I don't know why there's not more of a guarantee for the shot to reach that target (then the target is free to dodge, evade, block, reflect, or go invuln).

Yes and the facts show there is still a Plethora Of counterplay in game with an added new one, all of which are listed in the patchnotes, that DJ isn’t the hardest hitting skill without Malice(your claim that it is) again shown by patch notes and ingame tooltips and supported by the Wiki, the definition of Spammable skills in regards to Video games shows that DJ does not fall under that definition by any means, not to mention the fact to cast DJ multiple times you have to cast other skills or resources between each and every cast, again those pesky facts keep proving your claims of DJ wrong, so please back up your claims with facts, of what you said was true it wouldn’t be difficult in the slightest.

Just because someone makes claims doesn’t mean they are true especially when those claims lack any facts to back them up.

I'm done with this thread. Good luck arguing with OP

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