[PvE] what is power soulbeast missing?

[Lunateric.3708]

Latest balance patch brought some buffs for power soulbeast but they weren't quite enough to make it a desirable pick in endgame content. I've managed to find a single benchmark for it post patch over here:

With my very limited personal experience I'd say sword is still a pretty weak weapon outside PvP and some of the traits for marksmanship could use some tweaking (rework opening strike please).

What are your thoughts on this?

[Knox.8962]

It needs about 10% more damage. It has solid CC, it bursts pretty hard, it can bring a spirit at almost 0 DPS cost. It can even bring Spotter at a small DPS cost.

It is just about 10% lower than it needs to be for a spot in raids.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Knox.8962 said:It needs about 10% more damage. It has solid CC, it bursts pretty hard, it can bring a spirit at almost 0 DPS cost. It can even bring Spotter at a small DPS cost.

It is just about 10% lower than it needs to be for a spot in raids.

Its burst is actually pretty weak too for a power class, fairly below DH's, Holosmith's, Weaver's, Power Chronomancer's and power Spellbreaker's. It's basically one of the worst.

[Sarision.6347]

A lot of pet skills in Beastmode are still underwhelming; I'd look at those.

[apocalypso.4895]

@Knox.8962 said:It needs about 10% more damage. It has solid CC, it bursts pretty hard, it can bring a spirit at almost 0 DPS cost. It can even bring Spotter at a small DPS cost.

It is just about 10% lower than it needs to be for a spot in raids.

It's not as simple as bringing it up 10%. Imo it needs to be brought up in 4 aspects :

1- 10%+ stronger or faster auto attacks on gs and sw.2- Much stronger Beastmode Merged skills for the power pets, up to a 100% stronger in some cases.3- A substantial increase to Twice as Vicious effectiveness. Like 20% for 6 seconds rather than the current 5% for 4s.4- Lower cooldown on One Wolf Pack and Sick Them.Even with all these 4 things it might still not be there.Reasoning:If you look at dps graphs while playing this build, it's damage falls heavily after the initial burst with OWP. Then you are only able to do comparable damage again after a whole minute. Meanwhile if you look at what other power classes do, their initial burst is even higher, and is not gated by a minute and/or doesn't fall so bad.

[Aomine.5012]

Power Soulbeast simply misses out good weapon for raw dps...Warrior's axe surpass ranger's offhand axe and main-hand sword, with better buff , better aoe, and better dm.Warrior got much better modifier.Warrior's dagger easily surpass ranger's dagger.

[InsaneQR.7412]

MH power dps weapons are either slow in AA and ratger burst oriented or half of its skills are evades. Ofc there is LB but LB sucks in group content.OH axe is not bad as a dmg tool but its immobility makes it just inferior to WA from warr although the reflect is sweet. Sword MH has only the AA to deal dmg rest is evades.GS does less dmg than sword on AA and is more burst oriented.Ranger has no fast dmg dealing power weapon. Thats why axe surely needs an unsplit and dagger needs its coefficients reestablished.

[Kain Francois.4328]

Power Soulbeast is impractical for a realistic scenario because so much of its damage is compounded by Sic Em. Not only is our dps limited to a single target (making it bad for encounters like Keep Construct or anything that requires cleave), but our rotation is so dependent attacks with stationary, big wind-ups, like Whirling Defense and Worldly Impact. On moving bosses like Matthias, or most Fractal bosses as a whole, our rotation would be useless.

I think what Power Soulbeast needs before addressing anything else is the removal of our dependence on Sic Em' and the damage to be made baseline, perhaps at a lower multiplier. Just give Soulbeast a baseline 30% damage buff.

[AnariiUK.7409]

I would like to see the following:

• Attack of Opportunity changed to be a +50% damage for 1 second buff.Right now attack of opportunity is a fantastic mechanic that's unique to power soulbeast and leads to some very interesting rotations. The problem is that tiny damage ticks from traps or OWP consume and waste it. Changing it to a buff with very short duration achieves basically the same thing, but avoids small damage ticks being detrimental. I'd also like to see the AoO on Maul reverted to +50% damage.

• Twice as vicious changed to +10% damage for 5s.This trait has always been a little underwhelming, but high uptimes are possible with good spacing of cc abilities. I feel a 10% modifier is a reasonable boost considering you need to use valuable cc abilities to maintain this buff. This would also be a very slight buff to condi soulbeast, which is now doing pretty well thanks to the Iboga.

Longer term I'd love to see opening strike reworked entirely. Marksmanship as a whole currently feels very passive (With the exception of Moment of Clarity). Having each of the grandmaster traits modify opening strike in a different way could lead to some interesting build choices. For example:

Predator's cunning: Gain +15% damage for 5s and regain opening strike after interrupting an enemy. Opening strike now causes an additional lightning strike on the target.

[Lunateric.3708]

@AnariiUK.7409 said:I would like to see the following:

• Attack of Opportunity changed to be a +50% damage for 1 second buff.Right now attack of opportunity is a fantastic mechanic that's unique to power soulbeast and leads to some very interesting rotations. The problem is that tiny damage ticks from traps or OWP consume and waste it. Changing it to a buff with very short duration achieves basically the same thing, but avoids small damage ticks being detrimental. I'd also like to see the AoO on Maul reverted to +50% damage.

• Twice as vicious changed to +10% damage for 5s.This trait has always been a little underwhelming, but high uptimes are possible with good spacing of cc abilities. I feel a 10% modifier is a reasonable boost considering you need to use valuable cc abilities to maintain this buff. This would also be a very slight buff to condi soulbeast, which is now doing pretty well thanks to the Iboga.

Longer term I'd love to see opening strike reworked entirely. Marksmanship as a whole currently feels very passive (With the exception of Moment of Clarity). Having each of the grandmaster traits modify opening strike in a different way could lead to some interesting build choices. For example:

Predator's cunning: Gain +15% damage for 5s and regain opening strike after interrupting an enemy. Opening strike now causes an additional lightning strike on the target.

I like your ideas a lot. What do you think about current implementation of sword and GS autos?, are they not that important to change in your opinion?

[AnariiUK.7409]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@AnariiUK.7409 said:I would like to see the following:

• Attack of Opportunity changed to be a +50% damage for 1 second buff.

Right now attack of opportunity is a fantastic mechanic that's unique to power soulbeast and leads to some very interesting rotations. The problem is that tiny damage ticks from traps or OWP consume and waste it. Changing it to a buff with very short duration achieves basically the same thing, but avoids small damage ticks being detrimental. I'd also like to see the AoO on Maul reverted to +50% damage.

• Twice as vicious changed to +10% damage for 5s.

This trait has always been a little underwhelming, but high uptimes are possible with good spacing of cc abilities. I feel a 10% modifier is a reasonable boost considering you need to use valuable cc abilities to maintain this buff. This would also be a very slight buff to condi soulbeast, which is now doing pretty well thanks to the Iboga.

Longer term I'd love to see opening strike reworked entirely. Marksmanship as a whole currently feels very passive (With the exception of Moment of Clarity). Having each of the grandmaster traits modify opening strike in a different way could lead to some interesting build choices. For example:

Predator's cunning: Gain +15% damage for 5s and regain opening strike after interrupting an enemy. Opening strike now causes an additional lightning strike on the target.

I like your ideas a lot. What do you think about current implementation of sword and GS autos?, are they not that important to change in your opinion?

I think the GS auto is perfect right now. Huge damage on the third hit so it really encourages finishing the full chain. Greatsword is also a really fun weapon due to the Attack of Opportunity on Maul.

If the sword auto is buffed without any similar buffs to GS I would be worried that the build would shift back to pure sword/axe. Possibly with longbow only for the opener. In my opinion the pure sword builds lack a lot of flavour compared to the GS+Sword builds and they are mostly just autoattacking, not too interesting. If GS received some buffs to keep it competitive then I'd love to see a buff to the third sword auto hit, to encourage finishing the chain more. Also an aftercast reduction on hornet sting would be a nice bonus (You can weapon swap during the cast to stop jumping backwards, but there's an awkward pause where you cannot do anything for a second or so if you do this).

[Lunateric.3708]

@AnariiUK.7409 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@AnariiUK.7409 said:I would like to see the following:

• Attack of Opportunity changed to be a +50% damage for 1 second buff.

Right now attack of opportunity is a fantastic mechanic that's unique to power soulbeast and leads to some very interesting rotations. The problem is that tiny damage ticks from traps or OWP consume and waste it. Changing it to a buff with very short duration achieves basically the same thing, but avoids small damage ticks being detrimental. I'd also like to see the AoO on Maul reverted to +50% damage.

• Twice as vicious changed to +10% damage for 5s.

This trait has always been a little underwhelming, but high uptimes are possible with good spacing of cc abilities. I feel a 10% modifier is a reasonable boost considering you need to use valuable cc abilities to maintain this buff. This would also be a very slight buff to condi soulbeast, which is now doing pretty well thanks to the Iboga.

Longer term I'd love to see opening strike reworked entirely. Marksmanship as a whole currently feels very passive (With the exception of Moment of Clarity). Having each of the grandmaster traits modify opening strike in a different way could lead to some interesting build choices. For example:

Predator's cunning: Gain +15% damage for 5s and regain opening strike after interrupting an enemy. Opening strike now causes an additional lightning strike on the target.

I like your ideas a lot. What do you think about current implementation of sword and GS autos?, are they not that important to change in your opinion?

I think the GS auto is perfect right now. Huge damage on the third hit so it really encourages finishing the full chain. Greatsword is also a really fun weapon due to the Attack of Opportunity on Maul.

If the sword auto is buffed without any similar buffs to GS I would be worried that the build would shift back to pure sword/axe. Possibly with longbow only for the opener. In my opinion the pure sword builds lack a lot of flavour compared to the GS+Sword builds and they are mostly just autoattacking, not too interesting. If GS received some buffs to keep it competitive then I'd love to see a buff to the third sword auto hit, to encourage finishing the chain more. Also an aftercast reduction on hornet sting would be a nice bonus (You can weapon swap during the cast to stop jumping backwards, but there's an awkward pause where you cannot do anything for a second or so if you do this).

I'd think they should also look at Twice as Vicious, It has decent synergy with the power build because you have more access to CC, it does almost nothing for the condi build considering your only worthwhile CC comes from SB 5 though. It's imo pretty weak for the tier it's in.

[InsaneQR.7412]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@AnariiUK.7409 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@AnariiUK.7409 said:I would like to see the following:

• Attack of Opportunity changed to be a +50% damage for 1 second buff.

Right now attack of opportunity is a fantastic mechanic that's unique to power soulbeast and leads to some very interesting rotations. The problem is that tiny damage ticks from traps or OWP consume and waste it. Changing it to a buff with very short duration achieves basically the same thing, but avoids small damage ticks being detrimental. I'd also like to see the AoO on Maul reverted to +50% damage.

• Twice as vicious changed to +10% damage for 5s.

This trait has always been a little underwhelming, but high uptimes are possible with good spacing of cc abilities. I feel a 10% modifier is a reasonable boost considering you need to use valuable cc abilities to maintain this buff. This would also be a very slight buff to condi soulbeast, which is now doing pretty well thanks to the Iboga.

Longer term I'd love to see opening strike reworked entirely. Marksmanship as a whole currently feels very passive (With the exception of Moment of Clarity). Having each of the grandmaster traits modify opening strike in a different way could lead to some interesting build choices. For example:

Predator's cunning: Gain +15% damage for 5s and regain opening strike after interrupting an enemy. Opening strike now causes an additional lightning strike on the target.

I like your ideas a lot. What do you think about current implementation of sword and GS autos?, are they not that important to change in your opinion?

I think the GS auto is perfect right now. Huge damage on the third hit so it really encourages finishing the full chain. Greatsword is also a really fun weapon due to the Attack of Opportunity on Maul.

If the sword auto is buffed without any similar buffs to GS I would be worried that the build would shift back to pure sword/axe. Possibly with longbow only for the opener. In my opinion the pure sword builds lack a lot of flavour compared to the GS+Sword builds and they are mostly just autoattacking, not too interesting. If GS received some buffs to keep it competitive then I'd love to see a buff to the third sword auto hit, to encourage finishing the chain more. Also an aftercast reduction on hornet sting would be a nice bonus (You can weapon swap during the cast to stop jumping backwards, but there's an awkward pause where you cannot do anything for a second or so if you do this).

I'd think they should also look at Twice as Vicious, It has decent synergy with the power build because you have more access to CC, it does almost nothing for the condi build considering your only worthwhile CC comes from SB 5 though. It's imo pretty weak for the tier it's in.

Twice as vicious should be chabged so you retain your beastmode bonus for 10s after leaving beastmode. This would encourage condi builds for more weave-in-and-out gameplay and power builds have better dmg with empowered stats and a pet thats dealing dmg.

[Wondrouswall.7169]

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Twice as vicious should be chabged so you retain your beastmode bonus for 10s after leaving beastmode. This would encourage condi builds for more weave-in-and-out gameplay and power builds have better dmg with empowered stats and a pet thats dealing dmg.

Yeah, this. A trait that encourages active gameplay, benefits all modes, and emphasizes Soulbeast's mechanic. I don't care enough for the current Twice as Vicious that doesn't even apply to some builds, pets, and weapons (like the e-spec's own dagger).

[Lunateric.3708]

@Wondrouswall.7169 said:

@InsaneQR.7412 said:Twice as vicious should be chabged so you retain your beastmode bonus for 10s after leaving beastmode. This would encourage condi builds for more weave-in-and-out gameplay and power builds have better dmg with empowered stats and a pet thats dealing dmg.

Yeah, this. A trait that encourages active gameplay, benefits all modes, and emphasizes Soulbeast's mechanic. I don't care enough for the current Twice as Vicious that doesn't even apply to some builds, pets, and weapons (like the e-spec's own dagger).

It overall lacks synergy with what soulbeast does, I agree to some extent.

I'm thinking they are slowly phasing axe into what scepter is for guard to leave sword as an utility/PvP centric weapon. If that's the case I'd expect minor buffs to GS at one point or another and then a complete unsplit for axe mainhand.

These are just conjectures of course but just following the path of least resistance

[Dadnir.5038]

Objectively, 29k is not bad. If I had to guess what it lack however, I'd say that, like most other profession that struggle to reach beyond 30k, it lack the ability to hit more often per second.

It's not really attack speed because, the attack speed is decent but It's more extra dps sources that tic power damage per second. For example, some traps could use better power scaling damage (Im thinking of frost trap and viper nest). Torch's bonfire could as well use better power damage scaling.

[Prophet.1584]

Power Soulbeast needs to be able to reach 35K dps on a fairly forgiving rotation. that's going to require more than just a 10% buff or changes to skills. dps modifiers on weapons need to be changed for GS, Sw and LB. if SB where modified it could be a great hybrid weapon and dagger needs some love as well. Condi ranger, compared to other condi classes doesn't put out as many various conditions so it just doesn't work as well for competitive play. traited traps need to do much more in regards to applying cover conditions. ice trap would be a good example, it should deal dmg on trigger, apply cripple and chill and traited chill should do dmg similar to necro's. it could also daze on trigger, even a short daze, would make it so much better. all the traps could use buffs.

[Lunateric.3708]

@Prophet.1584 said:Power Soulbeast needs to be able to reach 35K dps on a fairly forgiving rotation. that's going to require more than just a 10% buff or changes to skills. dps modifiers on weapons need to be changed for GS, Sw and LB. if SB where modified it could be a great hybrid weapon and dagger needs some love as well. Condi ranger, compared to other condi classes doesn't put out as many various conditions so it just doesn't work as well for competitive play. traited traps need to do much more in regards to applying cover conditions. ice trap would be a good example, it should deal dmg on trigger, apply cripple and chill and traited chill should do dmg similar to necro's. it could also daze on trigger, even a short daze, would make it so much better. all the traps could use buffs.

35k DPS is too much, Holosmith doesn't reach that and it's a purely selfish power DPS spec. I think 33-34k for all power classes and then slightly higher over time for condi is ideal.

[apocalypso.4895]

@Lunateric.3708 said:35k DPS is too much, Holosmith doesn't reach that and it's a purely selfish power DPS spec. I think 33-34k for all power classes and then slightly higher over time for condi is ideal.

Power Soulbeast is a build as selfish or more than Holosmith, not only that, it has a lot less cleave than holo and weaver and it requires 100% melee uptime. There's no point making it mediocre. These 4 million golems benchmarks are not relevant for most content with fast burn phases. I care about cm fractals and for that weavers are out of reach, and the delta is higher than 50% at times.

[Lunateric.3708]

@apocalypso.4895 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:35k DPS is too much, Holosmith doesn't reach that and it's a purely selfish power DPS spec. I think 33-34k for all power classes and then slightly higher over time for condi is ideal.

Power Soulbeast is a build as selfish or more than Holosmith, not only that, it has a lot less cleave than holo and weaver and it requires 100% melee uptime. There's no point making it mediocre. These 4 million golems benchmarks are not relevant for most content with fast burn phases. I care about cm fractals and for that weavers are out of reach, and the delta is higher than 50% at times.

Power soulbeast doesn't need to deal with self damage and the melee thing applies to weavers even, ranged combat was never a thing for competent groups. I'm okay with buffs to power soulbeast as the post was made by me to begin with, just not the kind that isn't realistic and it's pure kneejerk.

[BadSanta.6527]

Power Soulbeast miss the power thing.

[Prophet.1584]

@Lunateric.3708 said:

@apocalypso.4895 said:

@Lunateric.3708 said:35k DPS is too much, Holosmith doesn't reach that and it's a purely selfish power DPS spec. I think 33-34k for all power classes and then slightly higher over time for condi is ideal.

Power Soulbeast is a build as selfish or more than Holosmith, not only that, it has a lot less cleave than holo and weaver and it requires 100% melee uptime. There's no point making it mediocre. These 4 million golems benchmarks are not relevant for most content with fast burn phases. I care about cm fractals and for that weavers are out of reach, and the delta is higher than 50% at times.

Power soulbeast doesn't need to deal with self damage and the melee thing applies to weavers even, ranged combat was never a thing for competent groups. I'm okay with buffs to power soulbeast as the post was made by me to begin with, just not the kind that isn't realistic and it's pure kneejerk.

while almost any class can be taken on raids the ones that are desired are the classes that actually parse high, especially on big hit boxes with a lot of cleave. We lack cleave and if we build for dps we lack very much utility other than some weak CC. For ranger to be "desired" in raids it would need to parse in the 33-35k range for an experienced player. That would put it in line with the rest of the desired power builds like Holo, weaver and Chrono without having to sacrifice too much by not taking a condi class.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

@apocalypso.4895 said:

@"Lunateric.3708" said:35k DPS is too much, Holosmith doesn't reach that and it's a purely selfish power DPS spec. I think 33-34k for all power classes and then slightly higher over time for condi is ideal.

Power Soulbeast is a build as selfish or more than Holosmith, not only that, it has a lot less cleave than holo and weaver and it requires 100% melee uptime. There's no point making it mediocre. These 4 million golems benchmarks are not relevant for most content with fast burn phases. I care about cm fractals and for that weavers are out of reach, and the delta is higher than 50% at times.

Power Soulbeast still suffers from druid/ranger buffs being strong. If a group brings another healer instead of druid, power sb can bring the unique ranger buffs and also stance share buffs. So the lower dps is "justified" in its strong support potential. This isn't as true for Condi SB since it has a harder time swapping skills. They lose 33% bleed damage if they bring spotter and all 3 condi dps utilities do good damage. By comparison, SotW is a 5% personal boost vs Frost spirit 5% for the group. So if there is no Druid healer in the group, frost spirit is the obvious choice for power SB because the power SB doesn't lose any DPS going support. Vulture stance is a condi skill and then it's still somehow the best power SB can do for max DPS builds. That isn't right. I doubt sun spirit would be a big DPS loss compared to vulture stance for power SB either.

The way I see it, if you want power sb to be on par/balanced with something like holo dps, the utilities need to give more power damage so that a power sb is competitive dps when selfish but not when buffing.

@Dadnir.5038 said:Objectively, 29k is not bad. If I had to guess what it lack however, I'd say that, like most other profession that struggle to reach beyond 30k, it lack the ability to hit more often per second.

It's not really attack speed because, the attack speed is decent but It's more extra dps sources that tic power damage per second. For example, some traps could use better power scaling damage (Im thinking of frost trap and viper nest). Torch's bonfire could as well use better power damage scaling.

The 25% increase to frost trap was laughed at last patch but I actually think that's one way to go. It needs more damage and a shorter CD but it would give those more attacks per second and burst. Like frost trap should be best in slot for a power SB compared to vulture stance. Half the CD of frost trap (15 seconds) so that every other frost trap is buffed by sic'em. Up the coeff to ~5.0 over 5 pulses. This could replace vulture stance for power SB. It also wouldn't break PvP since it's still bad there and pulses over 5 seconds so it's not an instagib. Not a fan of buffing power on viper nest or bonfire because those are already useful in condi builds.

There also isn't a good power dps pet to merge with. Like smoke scale and gazelle are great in PvP but only barely better than sword auto for raid DPS. Call lightning on the jacaranda merge is the ideal skill to buff power SB in PvE. Like frost trap, PvP players step out of it so it's not OP. Raid bosses don't so max DPS... but it's on the jacaranda which is supportive. Maybe merged Drake family F1 and F2 gets changed to be an aoe fields that pulsed a decent power coeff. Maybe change jacaranda merge to ferocious.

[apocalypso.4895]

@"DuckDuckBOOM.4097" said:If a group brings another healer instead of druid, power sb can bring the unique ranger buffs and also stance share buffs. So the lower dps is "justified" in its strong support potential. This isn't as true for Condi SB since it has a harder time swapping skills. They lose 33% bleed damage if they bring spotter and all 3 condi dps utilities do good damage. By comparison, SotW is a 5% personal boost vs Frost spirit 5% for the group. So if there is no Druid healer in the group, frost spirit is the obvious choice for power SB because the power SB doesn't lose any DPS going support. Vulture stance is a condi skill and then it's still somehow the best power SB can do for max DPS builds. That isn't right. I doubt sun spirit would be a big DPS loss compared to vulture stance for power SB either.

Actually Condi sb is atleast stance sharing. The op 29k build is not, and it's also not taking Skirmishing/spotter. I get what you're saying about possible compromises, but that is also true to any class to a certain extent. In current high end fractals meta (as I said, what I care about), some groups are not bringing even a druid anymore. I don't think power should be godly on 4million hp golems sustained dps, but it should be competitive with meta in 20-30 secs burst phases, not good for like 6 seconds then down to the ground for a minute, like it is now.

[Dadnir.5038]

@DuckDuckBOOM.4097 said:The 25% increase to frost trap was laughed at last patch but I actually think that's one way to go. It needs more damage and a shorter CD but it would give those more attacks per second and burst. Like frost trap should be best in slot for a power SB compared to vulture stance. Half the CD of frost trap (15 seconds) so that every other frost trap is buffed by sic'em. Up the coeff to ~5.0 over 5 pulses. This could replace vulture stance for power SB. It also wouldn't break PvP since it's still bad there and pulses over 5 seconds so it's not an instagib. Not a fan of buffing power on viper nest or bonfire because those are already useful in condi builds.

Well, Personnally I think that confining some weapon into a single type of damage is not a good thing. I guess we just have different point of view, I like to be able to use my weapon in any build, not being confined to a single kind of gear for each weapon.

There also isn't a good power dps pet to merge with. Like smoke scale and gazelle are great in PvP but only barely better than sword auto for raid DPS. Call lightning on the jacaranda merge is the ideal skill to buff power SB in PvE. Like frost trap, PvP players step out of it so it's not OP. Raid bosses don't so max DPS... but it's on the jacaranda which is supportive. Maybe merged Drake family F1 and F2 gets changed to be an aoe fields that pulsed a decent power coeff. Maybe change jacaranda merge to ferocious.

Buffing core pets can't be a bad thing. Thought anet seem to not share this point of view since they buff the pet skills used by the soul beast but don't do it for the pet itself. I got the feeling that they don't want core pet to be usable.