Your enemies should have no downstate if you're outnumbered

[Israel.7056]

@"ReaverKane.7598" said:

Because I think it will have the highest impact on lower skill groups under most common play conditions. I'm sure some fights will still be completely lopsided no matter what but "outnumbered' is such a large category I don't think it's possible to talk about all possible outnumbered scenarios at the same time.I've demonstrated it isn't.

Only if we all accept your presuppositions which I do not.

It also disadvantages groups in an already numerical disadvantage.

Your experience applies to you.. In My experience, Seafarer's Rest went from a medium server constantly outnumbered to the unbeatable server everyone was trying to join exactly because during the first months we'd constantly win fights when outnumbered, and you can bet that it wouldn't be possible to do this without rallying.

Yeah downed state covers a lot of errors but I think if you got more chances to keep playing without downed state and you got better at the game and you stopped making as many mistakes you wouldn't need to rally to win fights and you would see that you don't really need downed state in outnumbered fights anymore. I think you probably just need more practice with it to get the hang of it. I'll admit the first couple days were really rough for me because I've learned to rely on rallying too but after I got the hang of it everything got easier and easier. You think you need the crutch but you don't.

Being on SFR might be part of the problem I think SFR was one of the first servers Vabbi faced when I transferred over and honestly it reminded me of fighting Dragonbrand on NA if you get that reference.

Well i've explained the problem a few times...

You've kinda explained your problem but I don't think we have the same problem in this game.

Cause i'm bored?

Fair enough but if we're going to talk about what could be I think you have to be open to the idea that Anet doesn't really know what they're doing with WvW or what's going on in the game or how it works because they don't actually play the game very much and the ones that do are terrible at it. So using them as the ultimate arbiters of what's right and what's wrong is folly because they legit don't know anything about this game mode and they certainly don't know more about it than most of the people who've been playing since launch.

Fact: Rallying is a mechanic that equalizes fights. Already explained and demonstrated.

So stop going down. Don't plan to fail plan to succeed.

LOL, it's exactly the same reason. Safety in numbers.As soon as the first guild realized that they could conquer stuff faster by sticking together in a group, other guilds started doing the same to be able to counter that group, and then it went from guilds to servers when people started getting commander tags.Same thing in the animal kingdom, as soon as the first herbivores realized that the chance of getting killed was reduced from being near others, they started bunching up, and the predators started working in packs to separate them. EXACT SAME THING!

It looks similar but the reasons behind the behavior are completely different. Humans do it in GW2 to take advantage of game mechanics, animals do it in the wild out of instinct. Change the rules of the game and it will change the way people play it.

You have a group of 200 individuals, and a group of 100 individuals. In which group is it easier (effort being measured by number of individuals to be killed) to kill 10% of the population?

Are we talking about IRL or GW2? I get the feeling "easier" isn't the word you meant to use am I right?Wow man... I actually defined the metric for effort... It's right there. See this is why you're no fun to debate...

Ok but killing 200 people IRL can actually be pretty easy under the right conditions so I'm trying to figure out what you're asking me here.

Killing people in GW2 without downed state it just depended a lot on how good they were. Some servers were one push pretty much every fight during no downed state some guilds were winning 20v map q so it just depended a lot on skill and organization.

You do realize that this applies to all instances, if it's 50 to 40 it still applies, the % is different but it applies. And it applies regardless of skill.

No it definitely doesn't. Skill matters a great deal under normal circumstances and it mattered even more during no downed state week.

Your problem is that your conclusions are based on the assumption that the larger group is always less skilled.

Because they almost always are. Especially on EU good lord. I've been amazed at how bad most EU players are compared to most NA players. It's like fighting lemmings over here.

My conclusion is based on simple maths. It's a blind equalizer, it doesn't matter who's more skilled or not it simply evens out the field. Then people have the chance to fail or not.

Skill always matters but it matters even more without downed state though because downed state is a crutch for players who make lots of mistakes in fights and go down a lot.

Without rally even if the smaller group is more skilled, meaning they're more likely to get rallies, that mechanic doesn't exist, and as such each loss is heavier on the smaller group than the larger one.

Basically rallying allows smaller more skilled or equally skilled groups to capitalize more on each kill they take.

Being more skilled means you shouldn't need rallies because you won't go down. Don't plan to fail.

[Nuka Cola.8520]

That would be fine, but no downstate at all would be the best thing. They need changes, big changes for this stale game mode

[Israel.7056]

@ReaverKane.7598 said: Arena Net wants the game to be balanced and has already (like since there's WvW) taken steps towards curbing the advantage that numbers have in WvW.

I somehow missed this when I was taking apart the post.

I'm trying to think of what you mean by this? What steps?

[Sarrs.4831]

I think you can find better ways to make players stay down when they're downed. Maybe more stomp skills like Impact Strike.

[DeadlySynz.3471]

@Blockhead Magee.3092 said:

@Specialka.7290 said:

@Blockhead Magee.3092 said:No, no, no, no, no.

Downstate is a great mechanic. I hope these threads about coming up with a 'new' way to work in that foolishness can come to an end soon.

So bad players can still get carried by numbers?

So people can make up straw man arguments to support their position?

It's not really strawman when it's true. As the week demonstrated, it favored players who knew their class well and knew how to position themselves. It was a crutch however to players that basically didn't know what they were doing. Some people dubbed it ranger week, while others dubbed it no Ele week. I played both, I did see more rangers and less Ele's, but I did play the week mainly on my Ele and never died. I killed a lot of rangers who were clearly new to the class who didn't know a lick of what to do.

In saying that however, the best time to generate a lot of downs is waiting till a bunch of people come to rez a down, then you shade bomb them. So instead of 1 dead player we have multiple dead players :) That actually works far better than no downstate.

[BlueMelody.6398]

Why not just start with removing rally on kill (not entire downstate) from the server(s) without the outnumbered buff? If people want to get up from downstate, they have to do it manually rather than just continuing to bomb an opponent, which forces allies to make a strategic decision.

[Aeolus.3615]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ReaverKane.7598, i can imagine some server guilds, tell all players to move to other bl cause they cant be rezed :)

They'd still have a massive numerical disadvantage to overcome.

Indeed theres still the disavantage of the aoe spambility :\ due numbers, maybe to balance fights more towards skill and teamwork Anet needs also to reduce the aoe a bit form all classes, players spam more even guild groups play that way, w/o neeed to know what they are hitting, tthey just need to hit something and get numbers.

[SkyShroud.2865]

Maybe focus on fixing unbalance then we won't even have to consider this option.

[LetoII.3782]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ReaverKane.7598, i can imagine some server guilds, tell all players to move to other bl cause they cant be rezed :)

They'd still have a massive numerical disadvantage to overcome.

Indeed theres still the disavantage of the aoe spambility :\ due numbers, maybe to balance fights more towards skill and teamwork Anet needs also to reduce the aoe a bit form all classes, players spam more even guild groups play that way, w/o neeed to know what they are hitting, tthey just need to hit something and get numbers.

I should have elaborated further..

Nobody would intentionally abandon a map to create (no downstate) outmanned conditions, because no downstate isn't preferable to having a matching or superior sized force.

[Aeolus.3615]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:@ReaverKane.7598, i can imagine some server guilds, tell all players to move to other bl cause they cant be rezed :)

They'd still have a massive numerical disadvantage to overcome.

Indeed theres still the disavantage of the aoe spambility :\ due numbers, maybe to balance fights more towards skill and teamwork Anet needs also to reduce the aoe a bit form all classes, players spam more even guild groups play that way, w/o neeed to know what they are hitting, tthey just need to hit something and get numbers.

I should have elaborated further..

Nobody would intentionally abandon a map to create (no downstate) outmanned conditions, because no downstate isn't preferable to having a matching or superior sized force.

I was talking from the side that looses the rally, and i think u wanted to quote my other responde :<, when 1 side is outmaned but is hunting same size to smaller pugs in wvw, wich turns it into something to be abused rather than bring more decent gameplay.On that one i was mentioning the numerical disadvantage is largelly big 5-15 players vs 30 or mroe sometimes a queue or close to it, all the the bigger force needs to to aoe rush the smaller forces, since theres no good design, just gimmicks, damage and spam based combat.The game is do badly balanced and the awfulll class design to carry players wont even allow this idea to work.

IMO the gap between servers population is way to big to make downstate on the non outmaned any effect.

[Curunen.8729]

Just give anyone who gets downed and ressed a debuff effect that makes their following death skip downstate.

Debuff lasts for x minutes (ie 10 minutes).

[Smitty.8573]

I think every color serve should get a different buff. Red always gets outnumbered buff. Blue's enemies have no down state. Green gets permanent +15% speed increase. Make the colors mean something.

[Specialka.7290]

It does if I am not mistaken. Red means your server won the last Wvw week while green means you ended up last.

[Xenash.1245]

Personally I don't think this would work out, but it's an interesting idea that might get people to spread out their numbers a bit more.

[coro.3176]

@hunkamania.7561 said:

@coro.3176 said:Main reason this wouldn't happen (IMO) is that it gives information to the enemy.

Right now, you have no way of knowing for sure whether your opponents are outnumbered, so you have to be prepared for another force on the map. Are they flanking you? Are they split-capping your keep? You can guess, but ultimately, it's a skill to be able to read the map and guess what is going on.

If your opponents get an instant kill on one of your players with no downstate, now you KNOW they're outnumbered. You just steamroll right through them and on to their main keep. Similarly, the second your players start going down instead of immediately dying, you know they've suddenly got more people on the map.

Everyone knows all the servers weak timezones and PPT doesn't mean anything. In fights i'm sure you knew when you were blobbing someone down and k training some keeps during enemy servers weak timezones is being done right now as we speak. Irrelevant imo

Very true, but the way the game is now, and the way it should be assuming people actually cared about winning (does anyone anymore?) are very different. That might become a factor again after alliances.