Broken game

[Solidaris.5423]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@pah.4931 said:Sounds like you are potentially describing the real problem: a solo-queue random competitive mode that tries to rank individual players based on Wins/Losses.

If they fixed that garbage, then you wouldn't have to worry about the rando builds of rando asshats.

nah bro you gotta engage your brain on this matter. do some deep thinking. get smart. do these things:

refuse to choose your teammates, and complain about them

complain about people who choose teammates, because you're jealous because there not frustrated and are having fun

get the ability to choose teammates removed, which results in a ton of players quitting and a drop in match and player quality

then go back to complaining about your teammates and bad matchmaking due to low population

cmon man, it's obviously the smart way to go about things. makes a ton of sense. super intellectual and logical

Why do you guys always go back blaming solo queue for this? That is off-topic....

so you can't see how being able to pick your teammates fixes OPs issue?

which is the frustration of playing with people who the OP deems as running inadequate builds and not playing to win

you really can't see how being able to form a team with everyone running meta builds and playing to win fixes OPs frustrations and makes them happy?

is this really that unclear to you?

Yes please! Let us make PvP the same as raiding where teams will only accept you if you play a meta build which is not your play style or else you are closed out of them and can queue alone just to meet a pre-made team as your opponent and have a high chance of loosing over and over again.

[choovanski.5462]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

You say that those who don't want this are selfish but in reality you guys are selfish. You would form teams and create a huge disadvantage for those who do not have any and will never have any because of course you would never invite them into your team!

wow sorry you're so insecure and jealous, I legitimately am, that's a bummer dude :'(

didn't realize this was all about not getting invited to peoples teams. I feel like mayhap you're the selfish one, as you think 'if no one will invite me to form a team then no one else should be able to be in a team'. it's a very 'if I can't have friends then no one can' attitude

still, you're wrong about me not inviting people to teams. my usual way of playing PvP back in the day was as a TRIO. we'd often invite cool players we saw in HotM and in our games to fill up the two empty slots. we all play off meta, heck I used to main trap guard and gunflame lol

we were three social guys out to make pals and play together. sad that you think we're all snobs and bullies dude. we're keen to hang w anyone with a positive attitude and skills

like dude, I used to coach people in PvP and teach new players how to get better. we'd player with weaker players all the time, to help them out and improve them. most of the old PvP guilds were like this too, very helpful and friendly

[Bigpapasmurf.5623]

@brunoam.7391 said:

@"Gamble.4580" said:This is how meta changes lol, a person will remake a build do well set a role and poeple will copy. I welcome this as long as the build has a role and is needed with the comp u have.

But the point is that these builds are not meta!!! Renegade is now meta in pvp? Scrapper too? On what planet is this?

It seems to me that you have an elitist attitude. "If its not meta, it shouldn't be here". This is the kind of toxicity that makes new people afraid to start PvPing and makes those who PvP to leave.

Ive played my core condi engi in ranked, ive played my trapper ranger in ranked and both have done really well.

If it works, then who are you to dictate what people can/should play?

[Solidaris.5423]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Solidaris.5423 said:

You say that those who don't want this are selfish but in reality you guys are selfish. You would form teams and create a huge disadvantage for those who do not have any and will never have any because of course you would never invite them into your team!

wow sorry you're so insecure and jealous, I legitimately am, that's a bummer dude :'(

didn't realize this was all about not getting invited to peoples teams. I feel like mayhap you're the selfish one, as you think 'if no one will invite me to form a team then no one else should be able to be in a team'. it's a very 'if I can't have friends then no one can attitude

still, you're wrong about me not inviting people to teams. my usual way of playing PvP back in the day was as a TRIO. we'd often invite cool players we saw in HotM and in out games to fill up the two empty slots. we all play off meta, heck I used to main trap guard and gunflame lol

we were three social guys out to make pals and play together. sad that you think we're all snobs and bullies dude. we're keen to hang w anyone with a positive attitude and skills

Okay you are social and accepting. Can you tell that about the other players out there? Just because you are like that doesn't mean everyone will be like that. As I said I am not against teaming up. I do party up with my guildies and go for some PvP in unranked so stop looking down on me because yes that will make you look like a snob.

I already pointed out if pre-made teams would be formed than the majority of the players would form their own little groups closing out those who cannot form a team because either friends are offline / they just started / they have a hard time changing play style to fit the group etc.

Instead of looking at only your side of this discussion check why the other side does not agree with you.

Players who are against this are afraid that if this happens than teams will form up where they are not welcome so either they PUG it with a group or go in alone just to face a pre-made team against them creating a disadvantage favoring the pre-made team.

So tell me. Can you guarantee for those players that they will not have bad experience with that? Can you guarantee the players that teams won't force them to play as they want? Can you guarantee these players that they won't be burned out even more from it and want to quit the game mode?

[pah.4931]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@"pah.4931" said:Sounds like you are potentially describing the real problem: a solo-queue random competitive mode that tries to rank individual players based on Wins/Losses.

If they fixed that garbage, then you wouldn't have to worry about the rando builds of rando asshats.

nah bro you gotta engage your brain on this matter. do some deep thinking. get smart. do these things:

refuse to choose your teammates, and complain about them

complain about people who choose teammates, because you're jealous because there not frustrated and are having fun

get the ability to choose teammates removed, which results in a ton of players quitting and a drop in match and player quality

then go back to complaining about your teammates and bad matchmaking due to low population

cmon man, it's obviously the smart way to go about things. makes a ton of sense. super intellectual and logical

Why do you guys always go back blaming solo queue for this? That is off-topic....

I don't think it is off topic. I think the problem described in this thread is an inherent symptom of a larger problem. To wit: ranking individuals in a team-based competitive mode where you cannot pick your teammates. It kind of works in shooters, which are less complex (even class-based shooters like Overwatch) and then you're just dealing with skill-level and attitude issues. GW2 professions / builds system is SO complex, it makes things that much harder to ensure decent teammates. Sorry, but if you want a good, truly competitive experience, team-only is the only way to do it.

I mean. What other solution is there to the OP's problem? The only other apparent one to me would be to force builds in competitive modes. (if you see another option that solves it, I'm open to discussing it.) So, I choose necro and I queue and my build and weapons and utilities are chosen for me. This would ensure cheeze builds or off-meta players are never on your team... and it would also make balance way easier. You could make an argument for it.

Putting rewards in unranked won't work like you hope (though I would be all for it since I want to play with my friends and get reward for it... and don't give a shit about arbitrary, bogus rank)... because the reason pips are only in Ranked is because hardly anyone would play it except a few tryhards who think rank matters. Without any extra incentive to play ranked, you'd see a mass exodus from that queue in a heartbeat. You think Anet put pips in ranked because those playing in that queue "deserve" more than those in unranked? Nope. It's the only thing keeping the entire mode from dwindling to nothing.

[choovanski.5462]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@Solidaris.5423 said:

You say that those who don't want this are selfish but in reality you guys are selfish. You would form teams and create a huge disadvantage for those who do not have any and will never have any because of course you would never invite them into your team!

wow sorry you're so insecure and jealous, I legitimately am, that's a bummer dude :'(

didn't realize this was all about not getting invited to peoples teams. I feel like mayhap you're the selfish one, as you think 'if no one will invite me to form a team then no one else should be able to be in a team'. it's a very 'if I can't have friends then no one can attitude

still, you're wrong about me not inviting people to teams. my usual way of playing PvP back in the day was as a TRIO. we'd often invite cool players we saw in HotM and in out games to fill up the two empty slots. we all play off meta, heck I used to main trap guard and gunflame lol

we were three social guys out to make pals and play together. sad that you think we're all snobs and bullies dude. we're keen to hang w anyone with a positive attitude and skills

Okay you are social and accepting. Can you tell that about the other players out there? Just because you are like that doesn't mean everyone will be like that. As I said I am not against teaming up. I do party up with my guildies and go for some PvP in unranked so stop looking down on me because yes that will make you look like a snob.

I already pointed out if pre-made teams would be formed than the majority of the players would form their own little groups closing out those who cannot form a team because either friends are offline / they just started / they have a hard time changing play style to fit the group etc.

Instead of looking at only your side of this discussion check why the other side does not agree with you.

Players who are against this are afraid that if this happens than teams will form up where they are not welcome so either they PUG it with a group or go in alone just to face a pre-made team against them creating a disadvantage favoring the pre-made team.

So tell me. Can you guarantee for those players that they will not have bad experience with that? Can you guarantee the players that teams won't force them to play as they want? Can you guarantee these players that they won't be burned out even more from it and want to quit the game mode?

hey dude, I don't look down on you. I'd invite you to party if I could lol

I lost 50 players in my guild when team queue was removed. don't pretend the negative effects only fall on the people who prefer solo

tons of big PvP guilds died and disbanded, in a thread a while back we had over 350 people quitting in that thread alone. the removal of team queue is one of the reasons the population has dropped so much, which has caused big matchmaking issues

team play in a team game is incredibly important for bringing in new players, and for retaining them. I've gone into all the reasons why in other threads, but it's just basic human social dynamics

as far as friendliness goes, sure I may be friendly but not everyone is. yeah that true. but at least with the ability to party up being nice in encouraged, so you can make pals and get in groups- as toxic players don't get invites. whereas in solo queue you have no reason to be nice, as there is no rewards for making friends, nor is there any punishment for being a toxic person everyone hates

it also removes a lot of motivation to help and teach other papers. like why would I coach people if I can't play with them? what's the point of that?

solo queue is awful for growth, player retention, and community

furthermore, anet came out and said that statistically premades actually lost more than they won when facing non premades. so the winrate argument is fictional

sure, nothing is ever perfect, and no community will ever be happy with either- but it think a growing community with people who help each other is a heck of a lot better than a shrinking one that's full of salt

[Solidaris.5423]

@"pah.4931" said:

I don't think it is off topic. I think the problem described in this thread is an inherent symptom of a larger problem. To wit: ranking individuals in a team-based competitive mode where you cannot pick your teammates. It kind of works in shooters, which are less complex (even class-based shooters like Overwatch) and then you're just dealing with skill-level and attitude issues. GW2 professions / builds system is SO complex, it makes things that much harder to ensure decent teammates. Sorry, but if you want a good, truly competitive experience, team-only is the only way to do it.

I mean. What other solution is there to the OP's problem? The only other apparent one to me would be to force builds in competitive modes. (if you see another option that solves it, I'm open to discussing it.) So, I choose necro and I queue and my build and weapons and utilities are chosen for me. This would ensure cheeze builds or off-meta players are never on your team... and it would also make balance way easier. You could make an argument for it.

Putting rewards in unranked won't work like you hope (though I would be all for it since I want to play with my friends and get reward for it... and don't give a kitten about arbitrary, bogus rank)... because the reason pips are only in Ranked is because hardly anyone would play it except a few tryhards who think rank matters. Without any extra incentive to play ranked, you'd see a mass exodus from that queue in a heartbeat. You think Anet put pips in ranked because those playing in that queue "deserve" more than those in unranked? Nope. It's the only thing keeping the entire mode from dwindling to nothing.

I don't think locking builds would be a good idea because it would kill a unique character of the game about playing the game as you want to play it with whatever you want to.

But as I have stated above: If we allow pre-made teams than what is the guarantee we will not lock out players from the mode? What can guarantee that players who cannot form a team at that moment will not be facing pre-made teams over and over again? What will stop the community from demanding things from you so you can join their team? What will stop the playerbase to making the scene the same as fractals or raids where you have a high chance of failing because they are either demanding something the player is having a hard time or cannot communicate properly?

Before attack me down. I am against it because I cannot see the META / X RANK OR HIGHER OR GTFO type of LFG groups forming up to go against an organized pre-made teams.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

@"pah.4931" said:Sounds like you are potentially describing the real problem: a solo-queue random competitive mode that tries to rank individual players based on Wins/Losses.

If they fixed that garbage, then you wouldn't have to worry about the rando builds of rando asshats.

nah bro you gotta engage your brain on this matter. do some deep thinking. get smart. do these things:

refuse to choose your teammates, and complain about them

complain about people who choose teammates, because you're jealous because there not frustrated and are having fun

get the ability to choose teammates removed, which results in a ton of players quitting and a drop in match and player quality

then go back to complaining about your teammates and bad matchmaking due to low population

cmon man, it's obviously the smart way to go about things. makes a ton of sense. super intellectual and logical

Why do you guys always go back blaming solo queue for this? That is off-topic....

because these issues werent as rampart with team queue...

They were to be honest....When 5 man queue was a thing not once players got teamed up against pre-made teams which of course killed them off and complained about it....

Premades got matched against randoms and even Anet said they lost more than they won, so not sure what you're trying to say here.

I get it. You guys want to play ranked with your friends but still...unranked is an option for that. You cannot say that unranked would not be fun because if pre-made teams were present in ranked the same would happen as with pre-made teams in unranked.

Unranked is full of people trying new builds and doing dailies, there's literally no competition in that scene and not only that but you miss out on PIPS, so your time isn't anywhere near as rewarded.

Just look at the tournaments! How often can you see new faces winning them? The same players get to the top most of the time and not just because the low population but because they had the time and experience together to create a huge advantage.

This is true, they came from an era when team queue was a thing, so unlike many they had an opportunity to develop with each other. Not only that but AT's are also restricted to certain time zones, I personally can't make any of them due to work hours and sleep patterns but hey, I'm sure many Australians are in the same boat.

So this is why bringing back pre-made teams would not be good:

1. You would loose matches because the enemy team has more advantage than you (voice chat / know the other players build etc.)

Refer back to Anet saying premades lost more than they won

2. You would be forced to look for a team and just drop your own game style to adapt to theirs

This is MMO, what else would you expect?

3. If you would implement the system to only team up teams against other teams the queue times would be HORRIBLY LONG for everyone.

They would be to start off with until the population grew back up again as 1 player bringing in a team is 4 more players than the solo player but remembering that que times weren't all that long in the past, I can personally deal with that 3-5 mins.

Is it worth risking loosing more players to try this?

We may lose 10 players but another 40 players could bring in their guilds and create teams again like we used to have, so losing 10 for 200 is a good trade if you ask me.

Some players don't have friends playing the game and before you go THEN MAKE FRIENDS! no....that is not how it works. You cannot run around and scream YOU ARE MY FRIEND! NOW WE PVP TOGETHER! and expect that to work out.

That's a weird way to make friends, but it works as I told a guy for 3 months he had a nice butt until he joined my guild, been friends for 5+ years now and to this day I continue to say he has a good looking butt.

You say that those who don't want this are selfish but in reality you guys are selfish. You would form teams and create a huge disadvantage for those who do not have any and will never have any because of course you would never invite them into your team!

Reflect back on everything I just said and ask yourself who's really being selfish...And really think about it too, consider how many players were happy with team queue when it was a thing, think about team queue and the meaning of MMO, then think about the small handful of players that decided to buy MMO to play alone and force a company to change it to their liking instead.... Think about all that, then ask yourself who's really being selfish.

[Solidaris.5423]

@"choovanski.5462" said:

hey dude, I don't look down on you. I'd invite you to party if I could lol

I lost 50 players in my guild when team queue was removed. don't pretend the negative effects only fall on the people who prefer solo

tons of big PvP guilds died and disbanded, in a thread a while back we had over 350 people quitting in that thread alone. the removal of team queue is one of the reasons the population has dropped so much, which has caused big matchmaking issues

team play in a team game is incredibly important for bringing in new players, and for retaining them. I've gone into all the reasons why in other threads, but it's just basic human social dynamics

as far as friendliness goes, sure I may be friendly but not everyone is. yeah that true. but at least with the ability to party up being nice in encouraged, so you can make pals and get in groups- as toxic players don't get invites. whereas in solo queue you have no reason to be nice, as there is no rewards for making friends, nor is there any punishment for being a toxic person everyone hates

it also removes a lot of motivation to help and teach other papers. like why would I coach people if I can't play with them? what's the point of that?

solo queue is awful for growth, player retention, and community

furthermore, anet came out and said that statistically premades actually lost more than they won when facing non premades. so the winrate argument is fictional

sure, nothing is ever perfect, and no community will ever be happy with either- but it think a growing community with people who help each other is a heck of a lot better than a shrinking one that's full of salt

I hate toxicity and hatred in the current community as much as you guys and I am trying my best to encourage my guildies to try out PvP with me but when I see how some crybaby is spewing its immature a-holeness on people "because I know it better" I question if the community is mature enough for this kind of change.

There are only a handful of encouraging and helpful PvP people online at a time who would step up against this. Just look at OP for example. They would force people to use a build "because it is meta and it is useful than yours".

We need to reduce the hatred nad toxicity in the game before ranked can see 5-man queues again. And not just toxicity between team members but toxicity against the enemy team as well. Which is a really big objective to work on but a worthy one.

@sephiroth.4217 said:

You weren't around when team queues were a thing were you?

I started playing the game 2-3 months before HoT launched. I started PvP-ing after learning my characters in PvE a bit so like another 2-3 months after HoT launch. When I tried myself for the first time in Ranked and pre-made teams were a thing my matches were mostly one-sided so I tried looking for groups just to find out that the LFG teams did not let people in if they haven't met certain criterias and my friends slowly left because they had enough that they were thrown against teams we did not have a chance against due to lack of experience.

When they announced that only two man queues were allowed it was better for me to play but when I was playing unranked with my friends I could see why players were discouraged of the game mode. Getting experienced is hard when your team is thrown against veteran players in Ranked but getting matched up against totally clueless ones in Unranked doesn't give you anything to learn either.

[choovanski.5462]

@"Solidaris.5423" said:I hate toxicity and hatred in the current community as much as you guys and I am trying my best to encourage my guildies to try out PvP with me but when I see how some crybaby is spewing its immature a-holeness on people "because I know it better" I question if the community is mature enough for this kind of change.

There are only a handful of encouraging and helpful PvP people online at a time who would step up against this. Just look at OP for example. They would force people to use a build "because it is meta and it is useful than yours".

We need to reduce the hatred nad toxicity in the game before ranked can see 5-man queues again. And not just toxicity between team members but toxicity against the enemy team as well. Which is a really big objective to work on but a worthy one.

well what's your suggestion for making the community less toxic my dude?

because I think teams is a really good way to do it

I hate those meta elitists as much as you dude, like back at HoT launch when my main class, warrior was unplayable- people would afk on my team and give up just because I was playing warrior. it sucked

however, back then I could insulate myself from all those toxic players. I could play with my friends who accepted my wild warrior builds. I could avoid the bullying and afks

not now tho. when I queue up on gunflame, theres a good chance I'll get flamed by a teammate and he will afk and throw the game. it happens a ton

I can't do anything about that without team queue. I can't do anything at all. it's a miserable experience, it makes me alt f4 and play other games or play some guitar

so please dude, tell me how to fix this toxicity without teams. it's the only solution I can see, and it's proven to work

I don't want to be verbally harassed and told to kill myself for playing gunflame, and have people throw my games at spawn. the only way I can see to fix that is to choose my teammates

what's your solution?

[sephiroth.4217]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:

You weren't around when team queues were a thing were you?

I started playing the game 2-3 months before HoT launched. I started PvP-ing after learning my characters in PvE a bit so like another 2-3 months after HoT launch. When I tried myself for the first time in Ranked and pre-made teams were a thing my matches were mostly one-sided so I tried looking for groups just to find out that the LFG teams did not let people in if they haven't met certain criterias and my friends slowly left because they had enough that they were thrown against teams we did not have a chance against due to lack of experience.

When they announced that only two man queues were allowed it was better for me to play but when I was playing unranked with my friends I could see why players were discouraged of the game mode. Getting experienced is hard when your team is thrown against veteran players in Ranked but getting matched up against totally clueless ones in Unranked doesn't give you anything to learn either.

I remember it was tough starting out too but eventually I slipped into one of the communities within PvP, for all I know I was apart of this giant no rep contact list of PvP players, all of which were very supportive during my learning experience but unfortunately most have left the game now.

It's a shame you never had the experience nor will get the chance now, you really would have loved it. Even just the thrill of facing off against other guilds and your own within a match was the very concept of what I thought "Guild Wars" was meant to be, win or lose, it was always fun.

[Solidaris.5423]

@"sephiroth.4217" said:

They were to be honest....When 5 man queue was a thing not once players got teamed up against pre-made teams which of course killed them off and complained about it....

Premades got matched against randoms and even Anet said they lost more than they won, so not sure what you're trying to say here.

To be honest I haven't heard about those statistics and from my experience I saw that reversed

I get it. You guys want to play ranked with your friends but still...unranked is an option for that. You cannot say that unranked would not be fun because if pre-made teams were present in ranked the same would happen as with pre-made teams in unranked.

Unranked is full of people trying new builds and doing dailies, there's literally no competition in that scene and not only that but you miss out on PIPS, so your time isn't anywhere near as rewarded.

So if someone would form a team from scratch and go for Ranked to loose over and over again against a more experienced team how would they learn? It is difficult to learn anything if your team dies in mere seconds due to less experience than the enemy

Just look at the tournaments! How often can you see new faces winning them? The same players get to the top most of the time and not just because the low population but because they had the time and experience together to create a huge advantage.

This is true, they came from an era when team queue was a thing, so unlike many they had an opportunity to develop with each other. Not only that but AT's are also restricted to certain time zones, I personally can't make any of them due to work hours and sleep patterns but hey, I'm sure many Australians are in the same boat.

So this confirms my point above.

So this is why bringing back pre-made teams would not be good:

1. You would loose matches because the enemy team has more advantage than you (voice chat / know the other players build etc.)

Refer back to Anet saying premades lost more than they won

Again I said that because my experience and the experience of my friends was different from that statistic. But if that statistic is real and pre-made teams lost more than random teams why was it outvoted by the community back then?

2. You would be forced to look for a team and just drop your own game style to adapt to theirs

This is MMO, what else would you expect?

Okay point taken about that. But if my build works fine than they should not force me to play a different one because that is the meta.

3. If you would implement the system to only team up teams against other teams the queue times would be HORRIBLY LONG for everyone.

They would be to start off with until the population grew back up again as 1 player bringing in a team is 4 more players than the solo player but remembering that que times weren't all that long in the past, I can personally deal with that 3-5 mins.

But can you guarantee that? This is the biggest problem here. You cannot guarantee that PvP players will not end up as raid players ended up closing out players and giving new ones a hard time to reach their level.

Is it worth risking loosing more players to try this?

We may lose 10 players but another 40 players could bring in their guilds and create teams again like we used to have, so losing 10 for 200 is a good trade if you ask me.

Again see point above. The raiding community is bigger than the PvP community but still struggling to find new players. Wouldn't this game mode struggle more?

Some players don't have friends playing the game and before you go THEN MAKE FRIENDS! no....that is not how it works. You cannot run around and scream YOU ARE MY FRIEND! NOW WE PVP TOGETHER! and expect that to work out.

That's a weird way to make friends, but it works as I told a guy for 3 months he had a nice butt until he joined my guild, been friends for 5+ years now and to this day I continue to say he has a good looking butt.okay... good for them for having a nice butt I guess. I'm more for boobs but whatever.

You say that those who don't want this are selfish but in reality you guys are selfish. You would form teams and create a huge disadvantage for those who do not have any and will never have any because of course you would never invite them into your team!

Reflect back on everything I just said and ask yourself who's really being selfish...And really think about it too, consider how many players were happy with team queue when it was a thing, think about team queue and the meaning of MMO, then think about the small handful of players that decided to buy MMO to play alone and force a company to change it to their liking instead.... Think about all that, then ask yourself who's really being selfish.

Both side is selfish. I am trying to see the point of both sides and seeing the state of PvP right now I feel like getting in new players without experience to Ranked if 5 man was a thing would make most of them leave because getting experience right now is too difficult if as you guys have pointed out Unranked is just a place where people try out builds and is really random while Ranked would be filled with either too experienced teams against them where they cannot learn anything because the match would be too one-sided or inexperienced teams which would not give them any experience at all.

[Solidaris.5423]

@choovanski.5462 said:

@"Solidaris.5423" said:I hate toxicity and hatred in the current community as much as you guys and I am trying my best to encourage my guildies to try out PvP with me but when I see how some crybaby is spewing its immature a-holeness on people "because I know it better" I question if the community is mature enough for this kind of change.

There are only a handful of encouraging and helpful PvP people online at a time who would step up against this. Just look at OP for example. They would force people to use a build "because it is meta and it is useful than yours".

We need to reduce the hatred nad toxicity in the game before ranked can see 5-man queues again. And not just toxicity between team members but toxicity against the enemy team as well. Which is a really big objective to work on but a worthy one.

well what's your suggestion for making the community less toxic my dude?

because I think teams is a really good way to do it

I hate those meta elitists as much as you dude, like back at HoT launch when my main class, warrior was unplayable- people would afk on my team and give up just because I was playing warrior. it sucked

however, back then I could insulate myself from all those toxic players. I could play with my friends who accepted my wild warrior builds. I could avoid the bullying and afks

not now tho. when I queue up on gunflame, theres a good chance I'll get flamed by a teammate and he will afk and throw the game. it happens a ton

I can't do anything about that without team queue. I can't do anything at all. it's a miserable experience, it makes me alt f4 and play other games or play some guitar

so please dude, tell me how to fix this toxicity without teams. it's the only solution I can see, and it's proven to work

I don't want to be verbally harassed and told to kill myself for playing gunflame, and have people throw my games at spawn. the only way I can see to fix that is to choose my teammates

what's your solution?

The solution is not easy. We need a system which rewards team play instead of individual achievements like top stats. I have seen so many times that a player with no top stat at the end of the match was the biggest team player and sometimes rescuer of the game. I would say a system like Overwatch where you can vote for one member in your team and another member in the enemy team who in your opinion has done a great job in something and reward those with the most votes without telling the teams who was given how much vote? Something that rewards team play and also rewards players who teaches inexperienced one. To be honest hard to say.

@"sephiroth.4217" said:

I remember it was tough starting out too but eventually I slipped into one of the communities within PvP, for all I know I was apart of this giant no rep contact list of PvP players, all of which were very supportive during my learning experience but unfortunately most have left the game now.

It's a shame you never had the experience nor will get the chance now, you really would have loved it. Even just the thrill of facing off against other guilds and your own within a match was the very concept of what I thought "Guild Wars" was meant to be, win or lose, it was always fun.

Only seen those times on vids and heard about people talking about it. Must have been fun. Hopefully the community will drop their selfishness and get back to that time.

[Gamble.4580]

@brunoam.7391 said:

@Gamble.4580 said:This is how meta changes lol, a person will remake a build do well set a role and poeple will copy. I welcome this as long as the build has a role and is needed with the comp u have.

But the point is that these builds are not meta!!! Renegade is now meta in pvp? Scrapper too? On what planet is this?

No its not meta, but I have seen holo switch to scrapper and it was game changing. You use what u feel is needed.

[sephiroth.4217]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@"sephiroth.4217" said:

Unranked is full of people trying new builds and doing dailies, there's literally no competition in that scene and not only that but you miss out on PIPS, so your time isn't anywhere near as rewarded.

So if someone would form a team from scratch and go for Ranked to loose over and over again against a more experienced team how would they learn? It is difficult to learn anything if your team dies in mere seconds due to less experience than the enemy

This is how I learnt, by losing and adapting and getting better. Working out why I died and learning from it. What class did it, how he did it, what build was he using, what skills were used and compare it to mine and see what I could do to improve against it.

Refer back to Anet saying premades lost more than they won

Again I said that because my experience and the experience of my friends was different from that statistic. But if that statistic is real and pre-made teams lost more than random teams why was it outvoted by the community back then?

Because it was a trial and never stated that one would replace the other. I'm under the belief that trial stands for testing something, I think the English Dictionary reflects the same.I voted yes thinking it was great to have both queues, would attract more players and would also give me something to que up on when friends weren't online

3. If you would implement the system to only team up teams against other teams the queue times would be HORRIBLY LONG for everyone.

They would be to start off with until the population grew back up again as 1 player bringing in a team is 4 more players than the solo player but remembering that que times weren't all that long in the past, I can personally deal with that 3-5 mins.

But can you guarantee that? This is the biggest problem here. You cannot guarantee that PvP players will not end up as raid players ended up closing out players and giving new ones a hard time to reach their level.

I'm running purely on math with this one. I'm not sure about closing people out as I didn't have that experience when I was learning.butSolo player queues up, that's 1 player in game. He may decide he wants to play with friends and manages to get himself a duo partner provided he is below the cut off point.. So we now have a maximum of 2 players in the mists.

Under team ques:1 player wants to PvP with friends, he posts in guild chat "who wants to que" and gets about 14 responses but for the sake of simple math, let's say 4. That's 5 people... 2 of those could be trying it out for the first time because its content with friends and they could like it and stay and further continue this chain of posting "who wants to team queue"..

Some players don't have friends playing the game and before you go THEN MAKE FRIENDS! no....that is not how it works. You cannot run around and scream YOU ARE MY FRIEND! NOW WE PVP TOGETHER! and expect that to work out.

That's a weird way to make friends, but it works as I told a guy for 3 months he had a nice butt until he joined my guild, been friends for 5+ years now and to this day I continue to say he has a good looking butt.okay... good for them for having a nice butt I guess. I'm more for boobs but whatever.

Both side is selfish. I am trying to see the point of both sides and seeing the state of PvP right now I feel like getting in new players without experience to Ranked if 5 man was a thing would make most of them leave because getting experience right now is too difficult if as you guys have pointed out Unranked is just a place where people try out builds and is really random while Ranked would be filled with either too experienced teams against them where they cannot learn anything because the match would be too one-sided or inexperienced teams which would not give them any experience at all.

It can be rough but losing is also learning.When teams play together long enough, maybe they'll decide to queue for AT's against the pros too.

[voltaicbore.8012]

I keep hearing in this thread that Anet found premades statistically more likely to lose than win. Can anyone give me a link to a source?

At least in ranked, my only experience with premades was getting consistently curbstomped by them early season. I've always been a solo queuer, and I've found being able to relog to 2-3 classes if needed is what it takes to retain some semblance of control over soloq randomness.

[Solidaris.5423]

@sephiroth.4217 said:

It can be rough but losing is also learning.

This is kinda one of my greatest question here: Can you learn tho? I mean if you are a no-experience team going into ranked PvP and get the unlucky star to get a team who can clean the floor with you in mere seconds can someone learn from it?

Right now I have used it a few times but I can look at raiding groups (although those players usually have training runs which I haven't met in PvP yet). If someone wants to start raiding looking up some vids won't be enough. You need experience to be accepted into a group which you can get by.....well yeah raiding.

Wouldn't this happen to PvP? If you are inexperienced but want to PvP you don't have any way of getting experience to be invited to a team / guild organized around PvP therefore you couldn't get any experience therefore you wouldn't be able to get in a team therefore......you know the drill.

if the community wants this to be fully team based and have team queue option for ranked not just the current system needs to be changed but the thinking of the community about being locked to using certain build on certain classes and being rewarded for individual achievements needs to go.

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I keep hearing in this thread that Anet found premades statistically more likely to lose than win. Can anyone give me a link to a source?

At least in ranked, my only experience with premades was getting consistently curbstomped by them early season. I've always been a solo queuer, and I've found being able to relog to 2-3 classes if needed is what it takes to retain some semblance of control over soloq randomness.

Now that you mention it I have only heard about such a statistic today as well...might need to search around for it

[choovanski.5462]

@"Solidaris.5423" said:The solution is not easy. We need a system which rewards team play instead of individual achievements like top stats. I have seen so many times that a player with no top stat at the end of the match was the biggest team player and sometimes rescuer of the game. I would say a system like Overwatch where you can vote for one member in your team and another member in the enemy team who in your opinion has done a great job in something and reward those with the most votes without telling the teams who was given how much vote? Something that rewards team play and also rewards players who teaches inexperienced one. To be honest hard to say.

so, just want to get it out of the way- we aren't actually rewarded for top stats. there's no pip reward or anything for actually getting them. currently we are only rewarded for wins

I'm at a loss to how you can have a system the successfully rewards teamplay, while simultaneously banning teams. it's seems confusing. why, if teamplay and co operation are the goal, would one then ban people from forming teams and co operating?

if current community is anything to go by, a voting system with rewards would actually result in exploits if the reward was substantial- and if not would have little to no effect

I feel like without the ability to form and play as a team, it's really difficult to foster teamplay and community- because in the solo queue world, it's every man for himself. each player becomes an island

as someone who used to teach people, both pve players, and players new to the game how to play and how to get better- I can't get motivated to do that in a solo queue environment. why would I train up a group of players if I can't play with them, and furthermore if they can't play with each other?

I wasn't alone as an educator back then, there were a ton of PvP guilds who helped people out- especially players new to PvP. you could often ask in map chat, or talk to players with PvP guild tags and get good responses (I used to whisper good players who I was in a game with, either on my team or the enemies- and compliment their play and ask for party all the time. was very social and easy for us to fill the two spare spots in our TRIO). sadly all those guilds died when team queue was removed

connected is this other fact, with a lot of guilds people like to sit in discord and use voice chat. people like to play a game together and have a chat while playing- sadly gw2 PvP is no longer on of those games

if I'm in discord with three friends and we want to play a game, gw2 PvP will not come up- because we can't actually play it together. so its like we are playing three single player games, and chatting, which is nowhere near as fun as all playing a multiplayer game together. gw2 is not a game I can recommend to any friends I have, because I can't say "hey dude you should get gw2 it's a PvP game that we can't play with each other" and expect anyone to actually be interested

as far as the premade loss statistic, I believe it's on the old forums (which have sadly been deleted) @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 should be able to confirm. i think he was the Dev who posted it

basically to explain, premades had high win rates at really high ranks. like in high plat they won a ton. but in all the lower divisions they didn't win a lot. this is because most of those premades were made from guilds of friends, so the focus wasn't on super efficient builds and comps, but rather on being able to play with your guildmates

as to why it got removed, basically a bunch of people blamed all their losses on premades and had a false belief that premades won all the time. this false belief was promoted and propagated and became pretty widespread, even though it was totally wrong. kinda like how everyone used to think that the world was flat

[sephiroth.4217]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@sephiroth.4217 said:

It can be rough but losing is also learning.

This is kinda one of my greatest question here: Can you learn tho? I mean if you are a no-experience team going into ranked PvP and get the unlucky star to get a team who can clean the floor with you in mere seconds can someone learn from it?

Right now I have used it a few times but I can look at raiding groups (although those players usually have training runs which I haven't met in PvP yet). If someone wants to start raiding looking up some vids won't be enough. You need experience to be accepted into a group which you can get by.....well yeah raiding.

Wouldn't this happen to PvP? If you are inexperienced but want to PvP you don't have any way of getting experience to be invited to a team / guild organized around PvP therefore you couldn't get any experience therefore you wouldn't be able to get in a team therefore......you know the drill.

if the community wants this to be fully team based and have team queue option for ranked not just the current system needs to be changed but the thinking of the community about being locked to using certain build on certain classes and being rewarded for individual achievements needs to go.

@voltaicbore.8012 said:I keep hearing in this thread that Anet found premades statistically more likely to lose than win. Can anyone give me a link to a source?

At least in ranked, my only experience with premades was getting consistently curbstomped by them early season. I've always been a solo queuer, and I've found being able to relog to 2-3 classes if needed is what it takes to retain some semblance of control over soloq randomness.

Now that you mention it I have only heard about such a statistic today as well...might need to search around for it

It might take a while, someone posted it up ages ago on these forums... Was either a link from the old forums that got deleted or just a comment buried among the complaints but it's floating there somewhere.

[Solidaris.5423]

@choovanski.5462 said:

so, just want to get it out of the way- we aren't actually rewarded for top stats. there's no pip reward or anything for actually getting them. currently we are only rewarded for winsUhm you do get +1 pip for earning any amount of top stat in Ranked along with some PvP exp. for every top stat you earned.

I'm at a loss to how you can have a system the successfully rewards teamplay, while simultaneously banning teams. it's seems confusing. why, if teamplay and co operation are the goal, would one then ban people from forming teams and co operating?

if current community is anything to go by, a voting system with rewards would actually result in exploits if the reward was substantial- and if not would have little to no effectJust a question but if the current community would have a team queue wouldn't they exploit that in any way? I haven't experienced win trading myself so I am not sure about this one.

as far as the premade loss statistic, I believe it's on the old forums (which have sadly been deleted) @Ben Phongluangtham.1065 should be able to confirm. i think he was the Dev who posted itOkay so we will wait for his answer. Hopefully will arrive before GW3 :D

basically to explain, premades had high win rates at really high ranks. like in high plat they won a ton. but in all the lower divisions they didn't win a lot. this is because most of those premades were made from guilds of friends, so the focus wasn't on super efficient builds and comps, but rather on being able to play with your guildmates

as to why it got removed, basically a bunch of people blamed all their losses on premades and had a false belief that premades won all the time. this false belief was promoted and propagated and became pretty widespread, even though it was totally wrong. kinda like how everyone used to think that the world was flatI can't disagree with that seeing how many nasties are right now in the community I can see that happening

[Elvarazsollak.5193]

@Solidaris.5423 said:

@choovanski.5462 said:

so, just want to get it out of the way- we aren't actually rewarded for top stats. there's no pip reward or anything for actually getting them. currently we are only rewarded for winsUhm you do get +1 pip for earning any amount of top stat in Ranked along with some PvP exp. for every top stat you earned.

Only for reward not for rank if I'm not mistaken. I agree with others saying the rank points should reflect individual performance also. I.e. Right now if I would get -15 for a loss but I am top damage and top revive and was engaged in combat or was capping/decapping 50% of the time then reduce that penalty to -8. (random numbers as example). I'm not saying this would solve all the issue but at least we would see less afk thrown matches right at the beginning after one team loses the mid fight, and it would give some relief to ppl being angry at others not using meta after lost match (just to be on topic).

We should open a separate thread for this.

[Hot Boy.7138]

I play an off meta build and I am proud of it.

[voltaicbore.8012]

@choovanski.5462 said:

basically to explain, premades had high win rates at really high ranks. like in high plat they won a ton. but in all the lower divisions they didn't win a lot. this is because most of those premades were made from guilds of friends, so the focus wasn't on super efficient builds and comps, but rather on being able to play with your guildmates

This makes sense. I spend all my time in various stages of plat, hoping to end in the mid 1600s this season (down to 1566 right now on a losing streak). In this neck of the mmr woods, premades seemed highly effective - built with an eye towards solid team comps, coverage of important roles, countering the meta, etc. I find it very easy to believe that the overall statistical un-winningness of premades comes from poorly made groups doing ranked without caring enough about winning or skill.

[Kako.1930]

Scrapper actually isn't bad at all, but I get the point. People just play what they want to play and if they get to legendary tier with a condi ranger then more power to them. It's not like the leaderboard is accurate, anyways.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

we should have a list of meta builds that you can choose from in the pvp build window when playing ranked. off meta classes wont be able to q.