WvW and it's problems, a complete list

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@"starlinvf.1358" said:There is a saying in the business world.... "Ain't nobody got time for that". Its no secret most people in charge of hiring will not bother reading past the first page of a resume, unless they catch something warranting investigating further. This idea builds off the fact that if you can't establish something important quickly, then its likely a person is going with a quantity over quality approach that is as meaningless as it is vast. The more complex the information being conveyed, the more important it needs to be grounded with a proper frame of reference that can be built and easily elaborated on.

For sure, the prefacing could be better. Yet it is hardly a disaster, nor are any of the points which I convey terribly complex and the grounding is adequate.

For instance.... long lists can usually be organized by common elements. If a long list of elements have nothing in common, then how do you move between topics, or clearly explain the interactions? Looking at list, and knowing the common arguments around the forums, everything can be boiled down to a problem of raw volume and scaling. Theres simply too much everything. But I can break that down further, with few words, by pointing out the scaling problem goes hand in hand the indiscriminate nature of skill targeting; and that the power scaling problem is the result of skills being balanced around Raids, which are the inverse of the PvP combat the skills were originally designed around.

The list is organized into sections and subsections, more than that would feel excessive given how each subsection is only a paragraph or two at most and the subsections are categorized more or less anyway.

If I were to write a thesis, I state that the problems seen in WvW are the indirect result of Raids (which have opposing goals to PvP combat), combined with the direct result of POF Especs being designed to dismantle an entire PvP meta; but ironically made it stronger.

I get that it's a bit long but thesis is pushing it.

Gonna finish this by saying, if you wanna discuss how the original post is written, which I will admit isn't perfect, it might be best to continue in private messaging. It really is very off-topic to discuss formatting and writing in a thread about ingame issues.

[coro.3176]

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:I would like to see the removal or down tonage of Ferocity. As well as a range nerf on retaliation to only effect melee attacks both added to the list. Getting hit from across the map cause some shmoe with retal decided to step on one of my traps is very unrewarding and randomly puts me in combat.

Ha. I could get behind a retaliation rebalance:

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@coro.3176 said:

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:I would like to see the removal or down tonage of Ferocity. As well as a range nerf on retaliation to only effect melee attacks both added to the list. Getting hit from across the map cause some shmoe with retal decided to step on one of my traps is very unrewarding and randomly puts me in combat.

Ha. I could get behind a retaliation rebalance:

That's pretty awful, imo you should prolly only be able to be damaged by retal twice/second or similar or retal could simply be removed and replaced with some other boon. It doesn't really provide much to the game imo. Yet I didn't think of it while writing the original post.

[steki.1478]

@coro.3176 said:

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:I would like to see the removal or down tonage of Ferocity. As well as a range nerf on retaliation to only effect melee attacks both added to the list. Getting hit from across the map cause some shmoe with retal decided to step on one of my traps is very unrewarding and randomly puts me in combat.

Ha. I could get behind a retaliation rebalance:

That's absolutely disgusting. And I thought staff eles were having bad time with retal...

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@coro.3176 said:

@"iKeostuKen.2738" said:I would like to see the removal or down tonage of Ferocity. As well as a range nerf on retaliation to only effect melee attacks both added to the list. Getting hit from across the map cause some shmoe with retal decided to step on one of my traps is very unrewarding and randomly puts me in combat.

Ha. I could get behind a retaliation rebalance:

Had to watch that a few times. Mostly for the song! But noticed that it was all retaliation damage, that completely blows .-. Thought barrage rangers were the ones affected most in these situations. But thats just completely unfair lol.

[shiri.4257]

WvW Problems-->The players1.1 My living story build, class, and tactics work perfectly fine. The NPCs told me I was the greatest commander of all. I defeated mordremoth, balthazar, and held the line from the undead entering the ring and saved the world AGAIN!! The olmakan and sunspear will back me up, but WvWers keep telling me I'm crap! -->Please fix anet

[Kaiser.9873]

"What's wrong with WvW." is all relative. Your "Complete" list is just that; yours.

[Usagi.4835]

Re: zergs/blobs, nerf retaliation damage to discourage rewarding blobs/zergs who stack Minstrel bunker builds like Chrono and Firebrand.

[iKeostuKen.2738]

@"Kaiser.9873" said:"What's wrong with WvW." is all relative. Your "Complete" list is just that; yours.

Doesn't mean they are wrong though.

[Israel.7056]

@Usagi.4835 said:Re: zergs/blobs, nerf retaliation damage to discourage rewarding blobs/zergs who stack Minstrel bunker builds like Chrono and Firebrand.

Lol as if people run minstrel chrono and fb just for retal

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@"Usagi.4835" said:Re: zergs/blobs, nerf retaliation damage to discourage rewarding blobs/zergs who stack Minstrel bunker builds like Chrono and Firebrand.

This was mentioned multiple times by multiple people in the thread, and I didn't add it cause I honestly just forgot about it while writing the original post. I now decided to added it to the original post due to the sheer "braindead" of retal and how the counterplay is don't attack (which everyone can figure out isn't a valid option)

[SoulSin.5682]

Was expecting conplains about Dead EyeI am not disapointed.

There is a lot of opinion going on the OP post so I will just leave the majority as an "I disagree".

Moving on:

Point 1.1Your solution here is pretty much stop playing GW2 and play a MMo released on the years 2000~2007.The mix of mobility on the gameplay is the only reason gameplay here is good.Can't kill a class due to disengaging and exercise of futility? Sorry man that's your opinion there. Your opinion of conditions of victory or defeat, that is.

Point 1.2I can't help but laugh when I read people making rational arguments about how stealth is bad. Perhaps the most rational a person is the most problem they have with things they can't see.I don't have anything to add here. This is again a matter of opinion. Some people learned to deal with it, some doesn't.

Point 1.3I can relate that the high burst and active defenses on some classes is something hard to deal with it. But since when Hit&Run tactics are considered an "issue"?I can't help but read this and think you are playing the wrong game. Or perhaps you have trouble accepting strategies different than yours.

Point 1.4I hate ranged damage as well. But all maps were made taking kitting and ranged damage in consideration. A single tree in the way can turn any ranged damage from 20k to zero.The unblockable part ins clearly a reference to DE.That can't be helped since the OP is playing an class that's hard countered for.

Point 1.5I can relate.I could disagree on a few points but I won't disagree that the damage is unhealthy on most classes nowadays.Or specifically, "YOLO Build" are to common.

Point 2.0 in a general wayI agree that ANET doesn't seen to give the game proper methods to deal with the Zerg issue.

Point 2.1That's a game engine limitation.

Point 2.2Downed state is a mechanics that's bad with it and worse without it.Downed state is the only thing that actually stops the PvP to go in a straight full burst direction.The burst/mobility "Issue" you pointed on point 1 would be even worse if the downed state were to be removed.

It MUST be tweaked for WvW tough. Perhaps making players die faster on downed state? Adding a cooldown time to be ressed? Make the Ress debuff stronger?

Point 2.3Again, opinion.Tough I am not surprised someone that complained about mobility and burst plays Necro.I recommend you playing, and I mean a few hundred hours each, other classes and open your mind a little.

Point 2.4Classes to support itself in combat like that is one of the design decisions of GW2.You can make your support more efficient by investing on concentration and healing power, but the skills are always there.Drawing a line is also bad because Gw2 is not a Trinity game. In the myriad of choices, there is no place to draw a line.

Point 3.1Boon corruption says hi.

Point 3.2Access to stability, stun breakers and Condition clean is one of the many differences between classes and its intentional that some classes have less of some than others.Also condi meta was terrible.And yes, I agree that Firebrands AoE condi cleanse pretty much almost make Condi damage useless outside small skirmishes.

Point 3.3I disagree in this point entirely.Of the majority of games in the market, GW2 Stunbreaker system is one of the best.The problem is that you are playing a class with bad access to Stun breakers. Warriors and Thieves for example, don't have a care in the world for CC.

TL:DRI agree in the part that we hate zergs.I agree that stacking too many players, like supports, in a zerg makes everything run out of control.I disagree that the current burst meta is bad or that mobility mechanics. Its just a different way to engage on PvP and will prolly change in the future either way.I agree that damage across the board is absurd. But mostly because the excessive amount of passive and active defenses are making "Yolo" Builds viable. Wich until now wasn't actually possible.

OP should really play other classes besides Scourge tough. It limits your opinion a lot. Gameplay experience changes a lot from class to class and you can't change the game in the visions of a single class.

[Usagi.4835]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Usagi.4835 said:Re: zergs/blobs, nerf retaliation damage to discourage rewarding blobs/zergs who stack Minstrel bunker builds like Chrono and Firebrand.

Lol as if people run minstrel chrono and fb just for retal

Israel, don't play dumb. It's not a good look. I'm sure you know precisely what people mean when they bring up retal without it needing to be spelt out for you :)

[DeadlySynz.3471]

There are a lot of things that are over the top in WvW when they are stacked together with multiple people. This causing the effects to drastically overpowered. Sadly tinkering with too many things will probably cause WvW to be unplayable for most people.

There are certain things that need to go though. Resistance needs to be outright removed; there should be no boon that completely mitigates an entire damage type for an entire fight (this often happens). Reflects need to be removed or drastically reduce their up-time to no more than 1s. Again, much like resistance, reflects can often completely eradicate damage from classes using ranged for an entire fight. Retaliation should go or be drastically reduced, no way someone should drop an aoe and simply kill themselves by standing there. Power and condition damage should both be removed off any gear that contains toughness and vitality. It's often talked about just how bad dire and trailblazer is, but power on this gear is just a big an offender. You have to ask yourself the question why should someone who has high power, along with toughness and vitality hit just as hard (or harder) than a zerker player can hit them.

[Israel.7056]

@Usagi.4835 said:

@Israel.7056 said:

@Usagi.4835 said:Re: zergs/blobs, nerf retaliation damage to discourage rewarding blobs/zergs who stack Minstrel bunker builds like Chrono and Firebrand.

Lol as if people run minstrel chrono and fb just for retal

Israel, don't play dumb. It's not a good look. I'm sure you know precisely what people mean when they bring up retal without it needing to be spelt out for you :)

People are going to bring minstrel chronos and firebrands even if retal is entirely removed from the game.

[Usagi.4835]

@Israel.7056 said:People are going to bring minstrel chronos and firebrands even if retal is entirely removed from the game.I didn't say they wouldn't but it'd be a start by tuning down retaliation damage; it's one thing to have a tanky comp, it's quite another to be passively punishing glass players who, in many cases, take more damage through retal than they themselves put out, and for such little effort. So I have to wonder what it is you're exactly disagreeing with besides a point I didn't make?

[Israel.7056]

@Usagi.4835 said:

@Israel.7056 said:People are going to bring minstrel chronos and firebrands even if retal is entirely removed from the game.I didn't say they wouldn't but it'd be a start by tuning down retaliation damage; it's one thing to have a tanky comp, it's quite another to be passively punishing glass players who, as it stands, take more damage through retaliation than they themselves put out, and for such little effort. So I have to wonder what it is you're exactly disagreeing with besides a point I didn't make?

I'm disagreeing with the idea that retal disproportionately rewards people running tanky builds or that toning down retal would somehow discourage the use of Minstrel Chronos and Firebrands. It's my understanding that retal damage has a base damage amount and a multiplier that actually scales off power. So he could've dropped that into 40 people running full glass power builds and the only difference would have been that he would have died to retal even faster.

[Usagi.4835]

@Israel.7056 said:I'm disagreeing with the idea that retal disproportionately rewards people running tanky builds or that toning down retal would somehow discourage the use of Minstrel Chronos and Firebrands. It's my understanding that retal damage has a base damage amount and a multiplier that actually scales off power. So he could've dropped that into 40 people running full glass power builds and the only difference would have been that he would have died to retal even faster.That's a little disingenuous to me. It also scales off of might. If he'd dropped it onto a zerg of full glass power specs then chances are, he'd have at least downed some of them but from what I saw in the video and on the minimap, there were no downs. It isn't really an issue with glassier specs because the classes and builds that tend to pump out, maintain and benefit from retaliation are chronos and firebrands who are usually running full minstrel's (Mediguards are a separate issue). They actually addressed something similar back in 2013 when we still had Plague (R.I.P.) and transformation elites that doubled/tripled stats like power and toughness.

Six years into the game, I'm surprised people can still conjure up the energy to care anymore. That said, if they are going to make some changes, I think lowering the passive damage of bunker builds would be a start.

[Pelto.9364]

WvW needs the difficulty level setting: Easy, Medium, Normal.

I don't know how to implement it, but I would want a limit to the damage-per-second - supressing the one-hit 10-20 k damages and the rapid serial damages totalling 10-20 k.

That would give time to play the game, to combat - instead of getting oneshotted and rerun from a waypoint. Best players may continue playing with the torture setting "normal", of course.

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@Israel.7056 said:

@Usagi.4835 said:

@Israel.7056 said:People are going to bring minstrel chronos and firebrands even if retal is entirely removed from the game.I didn't say they wouldn't but it'd be a start by tuning down retaliation damage; it's one thing to have a tanky comp, it's quite another to be passively punishing glass players who, as it stands, take more damage through retaliation than they themselves put out, and for such little effort. So I have to wonder what it is you're exactly disagreeing with besides a point I didn't make?

I'm disagreeing with the idea that retal disproportionately rewards people running tanky builds or that toning down retal would somehow discourage the use of Minstrel Chronos and Firebrands. It's my understanding that retal damage has a base damage amount and a multiplier that actually scales off power. So he could've dropped that into 40 people running full glass power builds and the only difference would have been that he would have died to retal even faster.

I don't think retal really benefits glassy or tanky builds more in a zerg context, overall I think it just benefits zerging, or rather punishes players for doing a very non-optional part of killing other players, attacking them. Would removing retal solve all problems no, would doing so be good for the game, ye.

@"SoulSin.5682" said:

Was expecting conplains about Dead Eye

I take it that's your beloved main.

I am not disapointed.

There is a lot of opinion going on the OP post so I will just leave the majority as an "I disagree".

Moving on:

Point 1.1Your solution here is pretty much stop playing GW2 and play a MMo released on the years 2000~2007.The mix of mobility on the gameplay is the only reason gameplay here is good.Can't kill a class due to disengaging and exercise of futility? Sorry man that's your opinion there. Your opinion of conditions of victory or defeat, that is.

Linear low-risk, high-reward strategies are good for the game if you don't actually like interacting with your opponent yes.

Point 1.2I can't help but laugh when I read people making rational arguments about how stealth is bad. Perhaps the most rational a person is the most problem they have with things they can't see.I don't have anything to add here. This is again a matter of opinion. Some people learned to deal with it, some doesn't.

Stealth by itself isn't even the issue. The issue is stealth always comes together with high mobility. Meaning you can't see them, and they could literally have gone in any direction and far too.

Point 1.3I can relate that the high burst and active defenses on some classes is something hard to deal with it. But since when Hit&Run tactics are considered an "issue"?I can't help but read this and think you are playing the wrong game. Or perhaps you have trouble accepting strategies different than yours.

Hit&Run is a linear strategy. It plays out the exact same everytime, you gapclose to your opponent, you use w/e burst combo you have, you either get the kill or0 you teleport/run away, wait for your cds and repeat ad nauseam. They only work on classes slower than you (which depending on the class could be almost all of them). If you think powerful linear strategies with very few counterplay options to be healthy for a game then you might not know what a game actually is.

Point 1.4I hate ranged damage as well. But all maps were made taking kitting and ranged damage in consideration. A single tree in the way can turn any ranged damage from 20k to zero.The unblockable part ins clearly a reference to DE.That can't be helped since the OP is playing an class that's hard countered for.

Your deadeye bias is showing. Unblockable here was primarily aimed at soulbeast, imo their version of it is more annoying, at least the deadeye one is only on one skill, tho imo neither of them should have any unblockable ranged damage. If unblockable damage was reflectable it would imo be less of an issue.

Point 1.5I can relate.I could disagree on a few points but I won't disagree that the damage is unhealthy on most classes nowadays.Or specifically, "YOLO Build" are to common.

Well that's something...

Point 2.0 in a general wayI agree that ANET doesn't seen to give the game proper methods to deal with the Zerg issue.

Point 2.1That's a game engine limitation.

No it isn't. Siege has a target cap of 50, scourge had a target cap of 20 during PoF beta, just to name a few examples of skills that have/had bigger target caps, game still works for me at least.

Point 2.2Downed state is a mechanics that's bad with it and worse without it.Downed state is the only thing that actually stops the PvP to go in a straight full burst direction.The burst/mobility "Issue" you pointed on point 1 would be even worse if the downed state were to be removed.

It MUST be tweaked for WvW tough. Perhaps making players die faster on downed state? Adding a cooldown time to be ressed? Make the Ress debuff stronger?

Hence why I included both of these issues in the same post? Fixing both at the same time would be the optimal way to go about it.

Point 2.3Again, opinion.Tough I am not surprised someone that complained about mobility and burst plays Necro.I recommend you playing, and I mean a few hundred hours each, other classes and open your mind a little.

???Did you mean another part? Double duty skills are actually a problem that scourge has more than any other class. There's not even anything about mobility or burst mentioned in this entire secion???

If you're really so concerned about what I have played in WvW, I can tell you all the classes/builds I have played a considersable amount of in WvW. This is of course over various time periods (from the start of HoT) with various metas so keep that in mind. I might not have played each class that I listed here a couple hundred hours, but I'd say at least 50 hours of active WvWing, I did not enjoy playing all of them by any means, but I did, mainly as a learning excercise. They are not listed by playtime.

D/D Celestial ElementalistCondi Tempest.Power BerserkerCondi BerserkerPower SpellbreakerCondi DruidPower SoulbeastPower ReaperCondi ReaperCondi ScourgePower DragonhunterCondi Guardian (various e-specs)Condi D/D DaredevilCondi P/P DaredevilPower Staff DaredevilPower D/P DaredevilPower Deadeye (rifle+d/p)Power ScrapperCondi ScrapperPower HolosmithCondi ChronomancerCondi MiragePower MirageCondi Revenant (all the e-specs/core are the same)Power Revenant (and herald)

As an added note: I don't play scourge, I barely even play necro anymore, sometimes some power reaper but not very often. Currently the closest thing I have to a main is Condi Rev, a class with quite a few stunbreaks and okay-ish mobility (when compared to the sane classes). I play many other classes too.

Point 2.4Classes to support itself in combat like that is one of the design decisions of GW2.You can make your support more efficient by investing on concentration and healing power, but the skills are always there.Drawing a line is also bad because Gw2 is not a Trinity game. In the myriad of choices, there is no place to draw a line.

Trinity isn't applicable to WvWvW. What would a "tank" do in WvWvW etc?

The problem isn't dedicated supports, the problem is skills that are powerful enough to use while solo, that also happen to have a bunch of support just slapped on, this leads to exponential power growth, similar to double duty skills. Meaning there's no tradeoff, you run the best "selfish" skill and the best (or at least a good) support skill at the same time.

Point 3.1Boon corruption says hi.

Overlapping pulsing resistance fields say hi. Classes other than scourge/revenant says hi.

Point 3.2Access to stability, stun breakers and Condition clean is one of the many differences between classes and its intentional that some classes have less of some than others.Also condi meta was terrible.And yes, I agree that Firebrands AoE condi cleanse pretty much almost make Condi damage useless outside small skirmishes.

The "condi meta" you speak of was a period where less than half of the players played condi. Burst damage was at a very low point, I thoroughly enjoyed playing in it personally, almost every fight was a grindy attrition fight where you got multiple opportunities to outplay your opponent.

I am not saying there shouldn't be a difference in condi clears across classes, I am saying the difference should be smaller, and that group condi clears should as a compensation be weaker. Condi damage shouldn't be completely nullified in bigger fights, nor should some classes have access to almost 0 personal condi clear (power rev prolly being the one with the fewest, used to have even fewer).

Point 3.3I disagree in this point entirely.Of the majority of games in the market, GW2 Stunbreaker system is one of the best.The problem is that you are playing a class with bad access to Stun breakers. Warriors and Thieves for example, don't have a care in the world for CC.

I don't play scourge. Currently the closest thing I have to a main is Condi Rev, a class with quite a few stunbreaks and okay-ish mobility (when compared to the sane classes). I play many other classes too. Whether I struggle with stunlocking or not isn't actually revelant however to whether it's implementation is god awful or not, which it is, diminishing returns would only really affect the situations where you get chain-CCed, it wouldn't somehow make stab or stunbreaks bad, because getting stunned even once is a powerful thing.

TL:DRI agree in the part that we hate zergs.I agree that stacking too many players, like supports, in a zerg makes everything run out of control.I disagree that the current burst meta is bad or that mobility mechanics. Its just a different way to engage on PvP and will prolly change in the future either way.I agree that damage across the board is absurd. But mostly because the excessive amount of passive and active defenses are making "Yolo" Builds viable. Wich until now wasn't actually possible.

OP should really play other classes besides Scourge tough. It limits your opinion a lot. Gameplay experience changes a lot from class to class and you can't change the game in the visions of a single class.

I don't play scourge these days. Currently the closest thing I have to a main is Condi Rev, a class with quite a few stunbreaks and okay-ish mobility (when compared to the sane classes). I play many other classes too.

[Israel.7056]

@"SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.7026" said:I don't think retal really benefits glassy or tanky builds more in a zerg context, overall I think it just benefits zerging, or rather punishes players for doing a very non-optional part of killing other players, attacking them. Would removing retal solve all problems no, would doing so be good for the game, ye.

That's a more logical position to take.

[Ceistebi.4023]

2.1 The AoE cap on damaging skills

AoE skills are supposed to be the counterplay to multiple stacked enemies, yet the optimal counterplay to AoE effects is to stack more players in tighter blobs, which in turn makes single target effects all but useless (due to heals being AoE and "smart")(especially ones that can be bodyblocked). Outnumbering the enemy is it's own benefit, such a strategy does not also need a 60-90% blanket damage/cc reduction.My solution is simple, just remove the AoE cap from any offensive skills completely.Main Offender(s): Everyone

Nah, I'm good. You're a regular necro/ele/other class, not a god, you have limit to your magic. If we do away with aoe caps then everyone will just run massive AOE blobs. The stacking of a tight blob is so they survive the already ridiculous number of AOE's that exist.

2.3 Builds with a large number of "double duty" skills.A great example here would be Scourge (there are other too), which prior to February 06th Patch was my favorite class and main. After multiple excessive nerfs scourge is still amazing at zerging, but is now terrible for anything else. The reasons they are great at zerging is because all of their skills are both offensive and defensive at the same time, while many of their skills have a target cap of 10. The dual nature of their skills means that there is never a "bad" time to use them, meaning that while the average person in a zerg might not use the skills optimally, they will be used "good enough" to be effective (Back when Scourge wasn't trash outside of a zerg, I considered playing one optimally outside of a zerg to be one of the harder classes to master, while being mediocre/good enough to be one of the easiest classes(ie a bad Scourge player was still a threat, but there was a lot of room for improvement)).My Solution: Make more of these skills have an option to be either supportive or damaging, for example picking up "Path of Corruption" on Scourge might make f2 corrupt 2 boons like it used to, but no longer convert any conditions (or only convert conditions on yourself). Basically more tradeoffs and less skills that are mediocre at a lot of stuff. This rewards good decision making.Main Offender(s): Scourge, Firebrand, Warrior, Herald

The fact that scourges were "excessively" nerfed but still work as well as they do in zergs should tell you something about the nature of scourge or the nerfs. Either the nerfs weren't as excessive, or scourge was far too powerful. I like your solution though.

4. TL;DRThis can be summarized to, do something about the burst+reset meta in smallscale and do something about the exponential power growth for bigger groups from low-effort classes.

Not sure what a "low-effort" class is? Is that just a class someone is better at than you? I find scourge to be low-effort (refer to it as a face roll class cause all you have to do is set it up right, roll your face across the keyboard, and watch the bags come in), but it's also true that I just suck at it. Also, can't really say a whole CLASS is low-effort. Support ele is very different than zerker weaver, especially depending on player skill and comfort.

[Usagi.4835]

Pretty sure that's more or less what I said to begin with.

[SkyshaAdbinderMoonshard.70]

@"Ceistebi.4023" said:2.1 The AoE cap on damaging skills

AoE skills are supposed to be the counterplay to multiple stacked enemies, yet the optimal counterplay to AoE effects is to stack more players in tighter blobs, which in turn makes single target effects all but useless (due to heals being AoE and "smart")(especially ones that can be bodyblocked). Outnumbering the enemy is it's own benefit, such a strategy does not also need a 60-90% blanket damage/cc reduction.My solution is simple, just remove the AoE cap from any offensive skills completely.

Main Offender(s):

Everyone

Nah, I'm good. You're a regular necro/ele/other class, not a god, you have limit to your magic. If we do away with aoe caps then everyone will just run massive AOE blobs. The stacking of a tight blob is so they survive the already ridiculous number of AOE's that exist.

And everyone isn't already "running massive AoE blobs"? The AoE cap is actually the very reason people "run massive AoE" blobs, because stacking in the AoEs is the best (and easiest) counterplay to them, yet AoEs are the only thing that even tickles a Zerg because they're so stacked. You can't see the problem with that the best counter to AoE is to all stack inside it? Either way removing AoE cap benefits both AoE skills and single target skills.

It hardly means you as a small gorup would win every fight against a blob, but if they play really poorly it means they could get wiped.Blob stacks>you AoE them>they could actually die from AoEsBlob spreads>you single target them down>less effective but more effective than single targeting them is now.

2.3 Builds with a large number of "double duty" skills.A great example here would be Scourge (there are other too), which prior to February 06th Patch was my favorite class and main.

After multiple excessive nerfs scourge is still amazing at zerging

, but is now terrible for anything else. The reasons they are great at zerging is because all of their skills are both offensive and defensive at the same time, while many of their skills have a target cap of 10. The dual nature of their skills means that there is never a "bad" time to use them, meaning that while the average person in a zerg might not use the skills optimally, they will be used "good enough" to be effective (Back when Scourge wasn't trash outside of a zerg, I considered playing one optimally outside of a zerg to be one of the harder classes to master, while being mediocre/good enough to be one of the easiest classes(ie a bad Scourge player was still a threat, but there was a lot of room for improvement)).

My Solution:

Make more of these skills have an option to be either supportive or damaging, for example picking up "Path of Corruption" on Scourge might make f2 corrupt 2 boons like it used to, but no longer convert any conditions (or only convert conditions on yourself). Basically more tradeoffs and less skills that are mediocre at a lot of stuff. This rewards good decision making.

Main Offender(s):

Scourge, Firebrand, Warrior, Herald

The fact that scourges were "excessively" nerfed but still work as well as they do in zergs should tell you something about the nature of scourge or the nerfs. Either the nerfs weren't as excessive, or scourge was far too powerful.

Being overpowered in one situation doesn't necessarily mean overpowered in another. But you're right it speaks volume about how bad design "double duty" skills are and how one builds having double friendly (and enemy) target cap can keep them situationally overpowered even with their base power level incredibly low.

I like your solution though.

Thanks

4. TL;DRThis can be summarized to, do something about the burst+reset meta in smallscale and do something about the exponential power growth for bigger groups from low-effort classes.

Not sure what a "low-effort" class is? Is that just a class someone is better at than you? I find scourge to be low-effort (refer to it as a face roll class cause all you have to do is set it up right, roll your face across the keyboard, and watch the bags come in), but it's also true that I just suck at it. Also, can't really say a whole CLASS is low-effort. Support ele is very different than zerker weaver, especially depending on player skill and comfort.

Low-effort classes (builds is what I mean, not actually classes, I normally use the words interchangeably, my mistake) in this context are classes who in a zerg can't make any bad decisions, because there are none. Ie all/most of the skills are always good to press, meaning you can just faceroll (in a zerg).

[Usagi.4835]

Thought of another idea. Get rid of Iron Hide and Dragon Banner. Neither of those should be in WvW.