Which Spec deserves a nerf in pvp and why?

[Bossun.2046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Reaper, cus reasons.

And what reason is that?

Life force gain is too forgiving to go against in a 1v1 melee fight. And unless your specs primary is ranged combat, kiting it feels pretty useless. That's when going against a good necro tho, wherein bad reapers pop their shroud and either waste it or exit it at a bad time and can get one shot.

Reapers do not have many get out of jail cards, so the level of the shroud gain might be necessary, but when it's paired with that damage, it's just too much.

[Axl.8924]

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Reaper, cus reasons.

And what reason is that?

Life force gain is too forgiving to go against in a 1v1 melee fight. And unless your specs primary is ranged combat, kiting it feels pretty useless. That's when going against a good necro tho, wherein bad reapers pop their shroud and either waste it or exit it at a bad time and can get one shot.

Reapers do not have many get out of jail cards, so the level of the shroud gain might be necessary, but when it's paired with that damage, it's just too much.

Unfortunately unless they allow good amount in pve, we are screwed, because it only lasts like 2 seconds and thats barely enough to get anything done.In shroud it pulses and needed.

Although hmm and how do you propose we get life force? would you buff the weapons life force generation too?, because without it necros are dead, and when hit you run out of life force very very fast.

[Drascious.5714]

I voted deadeye because it just devolves the game into where is the deadeye. Because you either keep him dead and in sight or he bursts your face off at 1500 range with no chance to respond or avoid since his burst can be repeated so regularly. But honestly the power creep in this game is getting silly. We have massive burst or cc on so many classes now and the only response is equally irritating auto triggering immune followed by immune buttons on the skill bar. Mesmers with constant waves of clones. In general pvp could do with a reduction in burst and cc frequency and then have the defensive tools tailored around it.

[Bossun.2046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Reaper, cus reasons.

And what reason is that?

Life force gain is too forgiving to go against in a 1v1 melee fight. And unless your specs primary is ranged combat, kiting it feels pretty useless. That's when going against a good necro tho, wherein bad reapers pop their shroud and either waste it or exit it at a bad time and can get one shot.

Reapers do not have many get out of jail cards, so the level of the shroud gain might be necessary, but when it's paired with that damage, it's just too much.

Unfortunately unless they allow good amount in pve, we are screwed, because it only lasts like 2 seconds and thats barely enough to get anything done.In shroud it pulses and needed.

Although hmm and how do you propose we get life force? would you buff the weapons life force generation too?, because without it necros are dead, and when hit you run out of life force very very fast.

I would be okay with damage getting reduced and other weapons besides traitted staff giving life force. As long that it doesn't gain any passige HP Regen while in shroud. That way, it becomes tankier but you can't live forever or just shroud 4 to axe 2 and watch someone explode.

I believe that reaper wasn't in such a bad spot before the patch, it just needed some survivability to help in 1v1 and when being focused, since that's usually what happens.

That being said, there are probably other necro mains with better suggestions on how to handle the class.

[Axl.8924]

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Reaper, cus reasons.

And what reason is that?

Life force gain is too forgiving to go against in a 1v1 melee fight. And unless your specs primary is ranged combat, kiting it feels pretty useless. That's when going against a good necro tho, wherein bad reapers pop their shroud and either waste it or exit it at a bad time and can get one shot.

Reapers do not have many get out of jail cards, so the level of the shroud gain might be necessary, but when it's paired with that damage, it's just too much.

Unfortunately unless they allow good amount in pve, we are screwed, because it only lasts like 2 seconds and thats barely enough to get anything done.In shroud it pulses and needed.

Although hmm and how do you propose we get life force? would you buff the weapons life force generation too?, because without it necros are dead, and when hit you run out of life force very very fast.

I would be okay with damage getting reduced and other weapons besides traitted staff giving life force. As long that it doesn't gain any passige HP Regen while in shroud. That way, it becomes tankier but you can't live forever or just shroud 4 to axe 2 and watch someone explode.

I believe that reaper wasn't in such a bad spot before the patch, it just needed some survivability to help in 1v1 and when being focused, since that's usually what happens.

That being said, there are probably other necro mains with better suggestions on how to handle the class.

The problem with nerf isn't pvp but pve.Everything has consequences, lets call it the butterfly effect, and such nerfs to life force could have dire consequences in pve and wreck reapers.

A mobility buff for pve or some really good survivability tools would beb nice combination if they nerf damage a little in pvp only, so long as it stays in spvp and doesn't effect pve.

Its really really needed anyways, because reapers relevancy depends on the other player trying to facetank.It would need buffs outside of reaper form not in reaper form so it can stay alive, and some buffs kthanx, something akin to mesmer? lets say for instance more stability and lower cd on our defensives? please Anet?

Also Dps on reaper is still below average dps by around 2-3k dps.

[Bossun.2046]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Reaper, cus reasons.

And what reason is that?

Life force gain is too forgiving to go against in a 1v1 melee fight. And unless your specs primary is ranged combat, kiting it feels pretty useless. That's when going against a good necro tho, wherein bad reapers pop their shroud and either waste it or exit it at a bad time and can get one shot.

Reapers do not have many get out of jail cards, so the level of the shroud gain might be necessary, but when it's paired with that damage, it's just too much.

Unfortunately unless they allow good amount in pve, we are screwed, because it only lasts like 2 seconds and thats barely enough to get anything done.In shroud it pulses and needed.

Although hmm and how do you propose we get life force? would you buff the weapons life force generation too?, because without it necros are dead, and when hit you run out of life force very very fast.

I would be okay with damage getting reduced and other weapons besides traitted staff giving life force. As long that it doesn't gain any passige HP Regen while in shroud. That way, it becomes tankier but you can't live forever or just shroud 4 to axe 2 and watch someone explode.

I believe that reaper wasn't in such a bad spot before the patch, it just needed some survivability to help in 1v1 and when being focused, since that's usually what happens.

That being said, there are probably other necro mains with better suggestions on how to handle the class.

The problem with nerf isn't pvp but pve.Everything has consequences, lets call it the butterfly effect, and such nerfs to life force could have dire consequences in pve and wreck reapers.

At that point anet would have to balance things differently, at least more than normal for necro(core/reaper/scourge) as I understand that it is a pretty underwhelming spec in pve. It would probably require a greater difference per game mode than what anet wants each class to have. But the thing is that a buff meant for another game mode could hurt PvP more.

[Axl.8924]

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Bossun.2046 said:Reaper, cus reasons.

And what reason is that?

Life force gain is too forgiving to go against in a 1v1 melee fight. And unless your specs primary is ranged combat, kiting it feels pretty useless. That's when going against a good necro tho, wherein bad reapers pop their shroud and either waste it or exit it at a bad time and can get one shot.

Reapers do not have many get out of jail cards, so the level of the shroud gain might be necessary, but when it's paired with that damage, it's just too much.

Unfortunately unless they allow good amount in pve, we are screwed, because it only lasts like 2 seconds and thats barely enough to get anything done.In shroud it pulses and needed.

Although hmm and how do you propose we get life force? would you buff the weapons life force generation too?, because without it necros are dead, and when hit you run out of life force very very fast.

I would be okay with damage getting reduced and other weapons besides traitted staff giving life force. As long that it doesn't gain any passige HP Regen while in shroud. That way, it becomes tankier but you can't live forever or just shroud 4 to axe 2 and watch someone explode.

I believe that reaper wasn't in such a bad spot before the patch, it just needed some survivability to help in 1v1 and when being focused, since that's usually what happens.

That being said, there are probably other necro mains with better suggestions on how to handle the class.

The problem with nerf isn't pvp but pve.Everything has consequences, lets call it the butterfly effect, and such nerfs to life force could have dire consequences in pve and wreck reapers.

At that point anet would have to balance things differently, at least more than normal for necro(core/reaper/scourge) as I understand that it is a pretty underwhelming spec in pve. It would probably require a greater difference per game mode than what anet wants each class to have. But the thing is that a buff meant for another game mode could hurt PvP more.

Perhaps unless they really separate it, because its a problem:

Either necromancers are considered op or they are nerfed so hard they are autokicked and they cry and all quit.

Its no fun to be the one mocked for being weak dps due to nerfs and being the red headed stepchild who always gets scolded and thrown out, but if we do dps we get the wrong kind of attention where people of all walks of life won't leave us alone until we are gutted with our legs and arms chopped off so much, that pvp and wvw is unfun for us because we are free kills.For once i want this class to stay where it is, because its in a great position in pve, and even though its not perfect for pvp and needs changes still to be competitive at high end due to lack of mobility and escapes, and needing to be babysat without a way to fight.Someone posted in another post about hardcounters, well reaper at the moment is hardcountered by many classes, to the point where we have little to no chance to win a fight if they are good, because even if we don't make a mistake, we still lose.

Imagine this scenario right? you are running to a point to join in and help your friends, and you are being picked off by a S/D thief, or a mesmer.Well those guys can outrun you no matter what you do, and all you can do is stand and die, because if they have even half a braincell, they will know that getting near you is a death sentence, and will kite you.Thieves with S/D who are smart can do number 2 to immob you then teleport out wait for you to be out of shroud finish you off.I think thief was the wrong class to choose from this analogy, as thief tends to be more of a +1 class anyways, but mesmers can evade your attacks spam clones from range and explode you and move on without a scratch.

I know part of the problem is sustain, but mobility as well.Its also a issue that some classes have too much combination of all 3 sustain dmg and mobility, such as mesmers.

Thieves have mobility and sustain, but they actually have to waste a lot of time if they go for instance with shadow arts, because they constantly disengage and re-engage in order to gain advantage, because they are ambush predators.Alone and without their escape tools, they are far less a threat.

Back to reaper anyways:Yes it would require difference.Anet should be separating modes and having different dmg and sustain in pve and pvp.

[TheBravery.9615]

Berserkers are clearly overpowered. There's way too many in pvp and wvw and they often get 30 kills 0 deaths and an obscene amount of damage. They need a nerf ASAP or need to be disabled until they'er patched.

[Mega.5791]

When even renegade is a "most op" option and weaver still misses... feelsbadman.

[breno.5423]

@Axl.8924 said:

@breno.5423 said:Herald - 50% damage nerf at sword off hand skillsHolosmith - 20% dps nerfDeadeye - 20% damage nerf at death judgementSoulbeast - 20% dps nerfReaper - 30% damage nerf at shroud skills (keep quickness)Necromancer - Rework on Transfusion. Keep pull, but remove resurrection bonusNot unless every otherclass gets nerfed, including the one not listed because of a certain amount of lets say:favoritism? i'm talking about the most overpowered class, i'm talking about mesmers.

Thx for reminding me

[Axl.8924]

@breno.5423 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@breno.5423 said:Herald - 50% damage nerf at sword off hand skillsHolosmith - 20% dps nerfDeadeye - 20% damage nerf at death judgementSoulbeast - 20% dps nerfReaper - 30% damage nerf at shroud skills (keep quickness)Necromancer - Rework on Transfusion. Keep pull, but remove resurrection bonusNot unless every otherclass gets nerfed, including the one not listed because of a certain amount of lets say:favoritism? i'm talking about the most overpowered class, i'm talking about mesmers.

Thx for reminding me

Your welcomed.

Its not that i want free easy kill, but reapers need to hit really hard.I'm doing at most a few thousand per hit in regular hit and thats with greatsword.9000-12000 with drill with is gs3 and around 10k.I know it hurts a lot yeah, but necros need compensation for nerf in pvp to be viable, because we all know what it feels like to be the guy who gets the short end of the stick.If for instance you take away damage to reaper, and he gets into a fight in pvp, he won't be able to get past bronze, which isn't fair for reaper.What about those who like reaper and want to be good in spvp? why should they be denied the right because your too lazy to learn how to counter them? what about what reaper lovers and necro lovers wishes?

As others have said:we sacrifice traits for survivability to be able to put out that damage, and thus it should stay that way.We have no mobility no sustain, all we have is our damage.If you take that away we are nothing but free kills, and unless they nerf the survivability of every other class to heart of thorns level, and damage, we will never be able to ever get ratings, and will become trash tier again.

I know some here who hate necros don't care.(possibly some of them are sociopaths) But for a lot of us who want true balance and want proper fair games to be fun for everyone, what about the hard counters for necro that aren't fair? we are hard countered so hard , that we aren't likely to win unless the player is really bad, because most classes have far more mobility than us, and engineers have it bad when fighting us , because in some ways they are hardcountered by us.If you want true balance and not just some super skewed system that favores the elite few, then you will get rid of some of the hard counters and give other classes a fair chance to win, and not just nerf a class to the point where its so skewed and the power creep is so bad, that a lot of us give up and play another class because its not fun, because thats what we are here for, to have fun.

[breno.5423]

No one should hit so hard, thats the point.

All classes need damage nerf at anything.Reaper needs nerf too, this is not favoritism, this is common sense.

Maximum damage at sPvP should be 8k, in the best situation.

[otto.5684]

I had a seriously strong debate between berserker and renegade, then I remembered that few weeks ago I had a renegade on my team and we won :o . That is just unacceptable.

More seriously, there is so much terrible crap right now in the game. Holo probably is the most broken right now, followed by Reaper then Dead Eye. Holo, I have little issue with damage, I have multiple issued with CC being AOE, being way too accessible and chain-able. Reaper, kinda same issue. AOE CC and boon corruption. Both have also strong range attack options, even though builds bruiser builds that are less effective, mostly lack effective range options. Dead Eye, the permanent stealth is just stupid design. I am not sure why the genius dev team thought adding stealth to dodge is a good idea or making the strongest attack usable from range, stealth and unblock-able.

[Axl.8924]

@otto.5684 said:I had a seriously strong debate between berserker and renegade, then I remembered that few weeks ago I had a renegade on my team and we won :o . That is just unacceptable.

More seriously, there is so much terrible crap right now in the game. Holo probably is the most broken right now, followed by Reaper then Dead Eye. Holo, I have little issue with damage, I have multiple issued with CC being AOE, being way too accessible and chain-able. Reaper, kinda same issue. AOE CC and boon corruption. Both have also strong range attack options, even though builds bruiser builds that are less effective, mostly lack effective range options. Dead Eye, the permanent stealth is just stupid design. I am not sure why the genius dev team thought adding stealth to dodge is a good idea or making the strongest attack usable from range, stealth and unblock-able.

Reaper ranged aoe? you do know ranged aoe is a scourge thing right?

Reapers tend to do melee range has mele ranged aoe and a grabby tech but they have few ranged attacks besides shouts.

[otto.5684]

@Axl.8924 said:

@otto.5684 said:I had a seriously strong debate between berserker and renegade, then I remembered that few weeks ago I had a renegade on my team and we won :o . That is just unacceptable.

More seriously, there is so much terrible crap right now in the game. Holo probably is the most broken right now, followed by Reaper then Dead Eye. Holo, I have little issue with damage, I have multiple issued with CC being AOE, being way too accessible and chain-able. Reaper, kinda same issue. AOE CC and boon corruption. Both have also strong range attack options, even though builds bruiser builds that are less effective, mostly lack effective range options. Dead Eye, the permanent stealth is just stupid design. I am not sure why the genius dev team thought adding stealth to dodge is a good idea or making the strongest attack usable from range, stealth and unblock-able.

Reaper ranged aoe? you do know ranged aoe is a scourge thing right?

Reapers tend to do melee range has mele ranged aoe and a grabby tech but they have few ranged attacks besides shouts.

I said aoe CC not ranged aoe. As for the ranged damage; if you compare current bruiser builds:

HoloReaperWeaver swordCore guardianSBScrapperDruid

While Druid has the best range, it barely deals damage. Out of all the rest, holo and reaper have the best range options. Obviously, these are not ranged builds have much more tools at ranged competitive ages to the rest.

I did not consider DH, but no one should ?

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Excluded some class which are too much OP and some over nerfed classes and hard to play and also not much dmg classes...Daredevil, well... Should've included... But... That's my mistake... Varying opinions on scattered post... but if you feel Daredevil is OP, please do share it with us and also counter plays...

One of my main intention for this post is to make it a collective thread about OP classes and counters so ppl need not visit every profession forum and read all thread to get the theoretical experience for PVP class counters

Edit: of course this poll might be inconsistent with next balance update... But ppl could get some extra idea on how to counter OP classes...Mirage... eeehhh , idk... If I include it, the objective of this post might go off topic and becomes a debate... So... That's what it is

So it looks like you had two reasons for exclusions...

And regarding mirage: Well couldn't you say that about any class really if you're approaching this from an objective lens? Fact is, if you put mirage on the poll, people would vote for it. People are going to discuss it whether or not you include it in the poll.

[Axl.8924]

@otto.5684 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@otto.5684 said:I had a seriously strong debate between berserker and renegade, then I remembered that few weeks ago I had a renegade on my team and we won :o . That is just unacceptable.

More seriously, there is so much terrible crap right now in the game. Holo probably is the most broken right now, followed by Reaper then Dead Eye. Holo, I have little issue with damage, I have multiple issued with CC being AOE, being way too accessible and chain-able. Reaper, kinda same issue. AOE CC and boon corruption. Both have also strong range attack options, even though builds bruiser builds that are less effective, mostly lack effective range options. Dead Eye, the permanent stealth is just stupid design. I am not sure why the genius dev team thought adding stealth to dodge is a good idea or making the strongest attack usable from range, stealth and unblock-able.

Reaper ranged aoe? you do know ranged aoe is a scourge thing right?

Reapers tend to do melee range has mele ranged aoe and a grabby tech but they have few ranged attacks besides shouts.

I said aoe CC not ranged aoe. As for the ranged damage; if you compare current bruiser builds:

HoloReaperWeaver swordCore guardianSBScrapperDruid

While Druid has the best range, it barely deals damage. Out of all the rest, holo and reaper have the best range options. Obviously, these are not ranged builds have much more tools at ranged competitive ages to the rest.

I did not consider DH, but no one should ?

Actually we have few ranged cc besides shouts.Axe isn't reaper shroud its axe and its around 600 range or something.It has to hit hard because reapers need a way to kill people within that range due to mobility.

CC your probably talking about grabs and stuff right? it needs strong chills and grabs to kill mobile specs who have ranged options, because its slow and can't outrun folks, so it needs to bring people to them.

[Bossun.2046]

@otto.5684 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@otto.5684 said:I had a seriously strong debate between berserker and renegade, then I remembered that few weeks ago I had a renegade on my team and we won :o . That is just unacceptable.

More seriously, there is so much terrible crap right now in the game. Holo probably is the most broken right now, followed by Reaper then Dead Eye. Holo, I have little issue with damage, I have multiple issued with CC being AOE, being way too accessible and chain-able. Reaper, kinda same issue. AOE CC and boon corruption. Both have also strong range attack options, even though builds bruiser builds that are less effective, mostly lack effective range options. Dead Eye, the permanent stealth is just stupid design. I am not sure why the genius dev team thought adding stealth to dodge is a good idea or making the strongest attack usable from range, stealth and unblock-able.

Reaper ranged aoe? you do know ranged aoe is a scourge thing right?

Reapers tend to do melee range has mele ranged aoe and a grabby tech but they have few ranged attacks besides shouts.

I said aoe CC not ranged aoe. As for the ranged damage; if you compare current bruiser builds:

HoloReaperWeaver swordCore guardianSBScrapperDruid

While Druid has the best range, it barely deals damage. Out of all the rest, holo and reaper have the best range options. Obviously, these are not ranged builds have much more tools at ranged competitive ages to the rest.

I did not consider DH, but no one should ?

What's your range minimum for your picks? 300, 600, 900 or 1200+ ?

[Hot Boy.7138]

I'm power mirage. spellbreakers need to be nerfed. it's a low risk, high reward spec. Their resilience is just too good.

[Axl.8924]

@Bossun.2046 said:

@otto.5684 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@otto.5684 said:I had a seriously strong debate between berserker and renegade, then I remembered that few weeks ago I had a renegade on my team and we won :o . That is just unacceptable.

More seriously, there is so much terrible crap right now in the game. Holo probably is the most broken right now, followed by Reaper then Dead Eye. Holo, I have little issue with damage, I have multiple issued with CC being AOE, being way too accessible and chain-able. Reaper, kinda same issue. AOE CC and boon corruption. Both have also strong range attack options, even though builds bruiser builds that are less effective, mostly lack effective range options. Dead Eye, the permanent stealth is just stupid design. I am not sure why the genius dev team thought adding stealth to dodge is a good idea or making the strongest attack usable from range, stealth and unblock-able.

Reaper ranged aoe? you do know ranged aoe is a scourge thing right?

Reapers tend to do melee range has mele ranged aoe and a grabby tech but they have few ranged attacks besides shouts.

I said aoe CC not ranged aoe. As for the ranged damage; if you compare current bruiser builds:

HoloReaperWeaver swordCore guardianSBScrapperDruid

While Druid has the best range, it barely deals damage. Out of all the rest, holo and reaper have the best range options. Obviously, these are not ranged builds have much more tools at ranged competitive ages to the rest.

I did not consider DH, but no one should ?

What's your range minimum for your picks? 300, 600, 900 or 1200+ ?

900 range.

GS1 is 130 GS2 170 Gs3 220 nightfall radious 360 grasping darknes 750 range

Not a lot of range except on the axe which has better range.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

Which build Do ppl think needs to be nerfed on soulbeast???1) longbow coz of 1500 range2) greatsword coz of it's swoop mobility and one shot build variation with maul and WI3) axe increased damage with ricochet and axe54) JUST boons

What aspect of soulbeast do ppl hate most when playing against it???And if there are easy counters to those aspects please someone list them...

[Noha.3749]

Op not including Mesmers either because they obviously needs to get toned down, or because Op likes his/her mesmer lul.

Spellbreakers are too easy to play to deserve all that power and defense they got. Its just a dumbed down profession.Rangers overall are similar. Too easy to play to deserve so much oomph for so little work. Its just a dumbed down profession.Deadeyes could use a nerf to stealth. Deadeye shoudlnt be able to get rid of "Revealed" that easily in sPvP.Holosmith already got nerfed, let it land for a few months and observe how the change affects the profession.

[Faux Play.6104]

Cant take the poll seriously without mirage on the list. There are some horrible choices on the list too.

[Math.5123]

@"Axl.8924" said:It does say the last 2 days doesn't show long term like if you practiced or not.Its pretty clear you didn't go in without practicing some, because a newbie on a fresh class would get wrecked.

Reaper is stupid easy to play, and that comes from someone that plays core guard normally. It has very little to no depth and it's as close as you can possibly come to the typical melee fighter in games nowadays.Also, stop justifying Reaper damage because of how it performs in PvE. Staff ele has been god there for years, didn't really make it anymore viable in PvP though.

[Axl.8924]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:

@"Axl.8924" said:It does say the last 2 days doesn't show long term like if you practiced or not.Its pretty clear you didn't go in without practicing some, because a newbie on a fresh class would get wrecked.

Reaper is stupid easy to play, and that comes from someone that plays core guard normally. It has very little to no depth and it's as close as you can possibly come to the typical melee fighter in games nowadays.Also, stop justifying Reaper damage because of how it performs in PvE. Staff ele has been god there for years, didn't really make it anymore viable in PvP though.

Then stop trying to justify gutting a class that spent 6 years in the gutter and trying to excuse not learning how to fight it.I've fought reaper with my thief, and i won.If i can beat a reaper, you can too.Do you know how i won? i ranged the reaper so it couldn't get near me.

Its pointless discussion anyways.You aren't here looking to help a class, you just want a scapegoat a class into having its arms and legs.If you wanted balance, you would ask for improvements in others areas, but you don't care, because whatever class you play you just facetank and get wrecked.

Difference is weaver is viable for raids, and reaper is the only thing necros got viable for raids.You would have to buff bosses and give them boons to make reaper viable, and once its gone, its back to being /autokicked in high rating fractals/raids.

Eles are also pretty good healers too, even though tempest isn't really as good as others, because others provide better buffs.I even tried tempest in spvp, and i managed to make life hard for some enemies by healing and condi clears.