Which Spec deserves a nerf in pvp and why?

[breno.5423]

@rev in love.8439 said:

@breno.5423 said:Herald - 50% damage nerf at sword off hand skillsHolosmith - 20% dps nerfDeadeye - 20% damage nerf at death judgementSoulbeast - 20% dps nerfReaper - 30% damage nerf at shroud skills (keep quickness)Necromancer - Rework on Transfusion. Keep pull, but remove resurrection bonusEdit -Mirage - Remove break stun from mirage cloakSome things you say are absurd, it's okay to die of 1 shot in 0.2 sec of an Ele, of a Mesmer or of a Deadeye for example, but that a Rev attacks you with a sword 4 + 5 removing 10k is wrong, but that an invulnerable Warrior hits you 7 or 8k is fine ;)

Zerk ele is not meta.Deadeye is not meta (i guess).andI agree about mesmer.

[Abazigal.3679]

@Axl.8924 said:

@Slapinator.4196 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@rev in love.8439 said:

@"breno.5423" said:Herald - 50% damage nerf at sword off hand skillsHolosmith - 20% dps nerfDeadeye - 20% damage nerf at death judgementSoulbeast - 20% dps nerfReaper - 30% damage nerf at shroud skills (keep quickness)Necromancer - Rework on Transfusion. Keep pull, but remove resurrection bonusEdit -Mirage - Remove break stun from mirage cloakSome things you say are absurd, it's okay to die of 1 dispero in 0.2 sec of an Ele, of a Mesmer or of a Deadeye for example, but that a Rev attacks you with a sword 4 + 5 removing 10k is wrong, but that an invulnerable Warrior hits you 7 or 8k is fine ;)

Don't forget to add reaper which can be countered by not facetanking it and ccing them and movin around them making them waste their time in shroud, because we all know its easier to nerf something than to learn how to play.

People are literally complaining about the chills and procs when you literally have a 20 sec internal cooldown on chill of death and you need multiple boons on people to proc high crits, plus combine other effects to possibly kill someone below 50% health.Did i mention your enemy has to be 50% health? yeah thats a lot of things required for it to proc, and people cry about the silliest things.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill_of_Death

You need to consider that pvp ain't only about 1v1s it's about 2v2s and 3v3s as well, Reaper currently is overperforming especially when combined with a Firebrand or any other class that has cc skills, which most have.Also 20 sec internal cooldown on Chill of Death is indeed a really low cooldown for a skill that has no tell other than your own hp, removes boons, deals damage and applies chill.

You can literally counter reaper by not engaging them while shroud and ccing them and or ranging them to force them out of shroud faster, since its already super fast degen.Also, its not even a one shot move because you would need more than 3 boons on a person to kill them at half health(7 or 8 boons)

If you facetank reapers and don't learn to not stand on a point and try to fight them in melee range and get wrecked, your just really bad and got outplayed.

Learn to not always stand on point and sometimes some things hard counter what you play, go ask for help and get someone.CC the reaper until he's out of shroud in which you can blast him to death easily since he's no longer in shroud because he's very vulnerable to ccs mobile classes.Use your sustain as well to outplay him, as usually most classes outsustain reaper.

If you can't do any of these you are just really bad.

Ye but that's what i and he meant on our posts. This isn't about 1v1'ing reapers, and the build performs extremly well relying on opponents incompetence. On 3v3 situations, this requires all 3 to know what to do against a reaper. If one out of the 3 doesn't, it's likely we all 3 are going to get rolled.

That's what everyone says. This isn't generally an issue with reapers, more likely a " L2P" problem. But it's still too easy to perform well considering the amount of skill required to do so.

[Axl.8924]

@Abazigal.3679 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@Slapinator.4196 said:

@Axl.8924 said:

@rev in love.8439 said:

@"breno.5423" said:Herald - 50% damage nerf at sword off hand skillsHolosmith - 20% dps nerfDeadeye - 20% damage nerf at death judgementSoulbeast - 20% dps nerfReaper - 30% damage nerf at shroud skills (keep quickness)Necromancer - Rework on Transfusion. Keep pull, but remove resurrection bonusEdit -Mirage - Remove break stun from mirage cloakSome things you say are absurd, it's okay to die of 1 dispero in 0.2 sec of an Ele, of a Mesmer or of a Deadeye for example, but that a Rev attacks you with a sword 4 + 5 removing 10k is wrong, but that an invulnerable Warrior hits you 7 or 8k is fine ;)

Don't forget to add reaper which can be countered by not facetanking it and ccing them and movin around them making them waste their time in shroud, because we all know its easier to nerf something than to learn how to play.

People are literally complaining about the chills and procs when you literally have a 20 sec internal cooldown on chill of death and you need multiple boons on people to proc high crits, plus combine other effects to possibly kill someone below 50% health.Did i mention your enemy has to be 50% health? yeah thats a lot of things required for it to proc, and people cry about the silliest things.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Chill_of_Death

You need to consider that pvp ain't only about 1v1s it's about 2v2s and 3v3s as well, Reaper currently is overperforming especially when combined with a Firebrand or any other class that has cc skills, which most have.Also 20 sec internal cooldown on Chill of Death is indeed a really low cooldown for a skill that has no tell other than your own hp, removes boons, deals damage and applies chill.

You can literally counter reaper by not engaging them while shroud and ccing them and or ranging them to force them out of shroud faster, since its already super fast degen.Also, its not even a one shot move because you would need more than 3 boons on a person to kill them at half health(7 or 8 boons)

If you facetank reapers and don't learn to not stand on a point and try to fight them in melee range and get wrecked, your just really bad and got outplayed.

Learn to not always stand on point and sometimes some things hard counter what you play, go ask for help and get someone.CC the reaper until he's out of shroud in which you can blast him to death easily since he's no longer in shroud because he's very vulnerable to ccs mobile classes.Use your sustain as well to outplay him, as usually most classes outsustain reaper.

If you can't do any of these you are just really bad.

Ye but that's what i and he meant on our posts. This isn't about 1v1'ing reapers, and the build performs extremly well relying on opponents incompetence. On 3v3 situations, this requires all 3 to know what to do against a reaper. If one out of the 3 doesn't, it's likely we all 3 are going to get rolled.

That's what everyone says. This isn't generally an issue with reapers, more likely a " L2P" problem. But it's still too easy to perform well considering the amount of skill required to do so.

Problem is:its easy to make them counterable by baddies, but then you got the issues that if you nerf them because of facerolling baddies, you have to balance them in a way that they can reach platinum and keep them viable in pve.Its very hard to do without breaking them.Even then, they probably will still get countered by reaper because they are bad, unless the damage of reaper gets nerfed so hard, that they are essencially bad all over, which is not a solution.

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

The game shouldn't be balanced around what's good against idiots. That's the kind of thinking that got engineer turrets and dragonhunter traps gutted because morons couldn't stop running headlong into them.

[KrHome.1920]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:The game shouldn't be balanced around what's good against idiots. That's the kind of thinking that got engineer turrets and dragonhunter traps gutted because morons couldn't stop running headlong into them.If you could avoid that unblockable pull into a trap-oneshot on low cooldown while the caster himself had a block uptime for about 15 seconds, you should also have absolutely no problem in countering deadeyes (which you want to be nerfed). The cheese-factor is equal. The arguments why these two specs are not viable in high level pvp are also pretty equal: too predictable, too easy to focus down. This does not mean at all that the specs are weak in general or every possible scenario.

Engineer turrets were a thing before HoT powercreep. Yes there was a time when the turrets alone could pressure so hard that a lot of classes had to disengage and recover. They simply could not destroy the turrets as they could not critically hit them and not apply conditions to them. So turrets were a counter to every single dps and burst build while the engineer could sit on point and watch TV on his second monitor until he got outnumbered. These days I press F1 on reaper and the turrets are gone just because of shroud procs.

[coro.3176]

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:The game shouldn't be balanced around what's good against idiots. That's the kind of thinking that got engineer turrets and dragonhunter traps gutted because morons couldn't stop running headlong into them.If you could avoid that unblockable pull into a trap-oneshot on low cooldown while the caster himself had a block uptime for about 15 seconds, you should also have absolutely no problem in countering deadeyes (which you want to be nerfed). The cheese-factor is equal. The arguments why these two specs are not viable in high level pvp are also pretty equal: too predictable, too easy to focus down. This does not mean at all that the specs are weak in general or every possible scenario.

Mm. no. Spear of Justice is a 3/4s cast with no stealth and no quickness. DJ comes from stealth with a 1/2s cast (~0.3s with quickness). That's pushing the limits of human reaction time once you factor in latency. If you don't believe me, try it yourself: https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/ (add your latency, plus a small amount if your dodge key is on a different button)

[ArthurDent.9538]

@coro.3176 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:The game shouldn't be balanced around what's good against idiots. That's the kind of thinking that got engineer turrets and dragonhunter traps gutted because morons couldn't stop running headlong into them.If you could avoid that unblockable pull into a trap-oneshot on low cooldown while the caster himself had a block uptime for about 15 seconds, you should also have absolutely no problem in countering deadeyes (which you want to be nerfed). The cheese-factor is equal. The arguments why these two specs are not viable in high level pvp are also pretty equal: too predictable, too easy to focus down. This does not mean at all that the specs are weak in general or every possible scenario.

Mm. no. Spear of Justice is a 3/4s cast with no stealth and no quickness. DJ comes from stealth with a 1/2s cast (~0.3s with quickness). That's pushing the limits of human reaction time once you factor in latency. If you don't believe me, try it yourself:

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

(add your latency, plus a small amount if your dodge key is on a different button)

When going by human reaction time, there are a few other things which that test does not take into account which will make realistic human reaction time to a deadeye much higher than the ~1/4 seconds which the test would seem to show. First is that the test is a singular possible reaction to a singular possible stimuli in this case click when the screen turns green. If the test was a bit more complicated such as for example left click when screen turns green, right click when screen turns orange, or spacebar when screen turns yellow. In this version of the test reaction time would take quite a bit longer as there would be additional brain processes to first identify which stimuli was applied and then to decide the correct action to take. While these processes are extremely simple when we are talking fractions of a second, they do add up to a significantly longer reaction time than 1/4 second. Avoiding a Deadeye burst is a similarly simple process in theory however it is also a case of multiple possible stimuli with multiple optimal responses depending on the stimuli. When a deadeye stealths there are a few different follow up stimuli's one must react to: they can go straight for deaths judgment which just requires a dodge or invuln, they can binding shadow into deaths judgment which requires a stunbreak, imobilize remove, and then a dodge or some invuln/evade that can be used while stunned/immobilized (mirage cloak/elixir s/endure pain/riposting shadows/twist of fate/roll for initiative/stone signet/many others though none for necro), they can also go straight for malicious back-stab which can't be reflexively avoided so run away from where they stealthed guess, or for the last possible stimuli something else attacks you instead. That last one is important because if you are poised ready to pounce on your panic button to counter the binding shadow dj combo and instead a staff druid starts autoing you from off screen then you may very well blow a large cooldown for nothing, instead you have to identify the druid autos as a non threat and that takes precious fractions of a second which you can't afford in the cast that it was the deadeye one shot all a long.

The last thing to consider is that the reaction time test presumes all of your attention is focused on the test. However in a match even when not already involved in a fight, you will often be thinking about other things going on such as where everyone is on the mini map and where your next rotation will be, if a deadeye opens from stealth on you without ever having been previously visible, you will not be as prepared to react immediately as you would if you know before hand that he is about to burst. And deadeye opening burst is absolutely a threat with a simple mark -> dj combo hitting 12k+ easily without requiring malice buildup and three round burst spam after that doing insane damage for follow up so saying you should know he is about to burst because of the mark is just false.

[coro.3176]

@ArthurDent.9538 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Hyper Cutter.9376" said:The game shouldn't be balanced around what's good against idiots. That's the kind of thinking that got engineer turrets and dragonhunter traps gutted because morons couldn't stop running headlong into them.If you could avoid that unblockable pull into a trap-oneshot on low cooldown while the caster himself had a block uptime for about 15 seconds, you should also have absolutely no problem in countering deadeyes (which you want to be nerfed). The cheese-factor is equal. The arguments why these two specs are not viable in high level pvp are also pretty equal: too predictable, too easy to focus down. This does not mean at all that the specs are weak in general or every possible scenario.

Mm. no. Spear of Justice is a 3/4s cast with no stealth and no quickness. DJ comes from stealth with a 1/2s cast (~0.3s with quickness). That's pushing the limits of human reaction time once you factor in latency. If you don't believe me, try it yourself:

https://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/

(add your latency, plus a small amount if your dodge key is on a different button)

When going by human reaction time, there are a few other things which that test does not take into account which will make realistic human reaction time to a deadeye much higher than the ~1/4 seconds which the test would seem to show. First is that the test is a singular possible reaction to a singular possible stimuli in this case click when the screen turns green. If the test was a bit more complicated such as for example left click when screen turns green, right click when screen turns orange, or spacebar when screen turns yellow. In this version of the test reaction time would take quite a bit longer as there would be additional brain processes to first identify which stimuli was applied and then to decide the correct action to take. While these processes are extremely simple when we are talking fractions of a second, they do add up to a significantly longer reaction time than 1/4 second. Avoiding a Deadeye burst is a similarly simple process in theory however it is also a case of multiple possible stimuli with multiple optimal responses depending on the stimuli. When a deadeye stealths there are a few different follow up stimuli's one must react to: they can go straight for deaths judgment which just requires a dodge or invuln, they can binding shadow into deaths judgment which requires a stunbreak, imobilize remove, and then a dodge or some invuln/evade that can be used while stunned/immobilized (mirage cloak/elixir s/endure pain/riposting shadows/twist of fate/roll for initiative/stone signet/many others though none for necro), they can also go straight for malicious back-stab which can't be reflexively avoided so run away from where they stealthed guess, or for the last possible stimuli something else attacks you instead. That last one is important because if you are poised ready to pounce on your panic button to counter the binding shadow dj combo and instead a staff druid starts autoing you from off screen then you may very well blow a large cooldown for nothing, instead you have to identify the druid autos as a non threat and that takes precious fractions of a second which you can't afford in the cast that it was the deadeye one shot all a long.

The last thing to consider is that the reaction time test presumes all of your attention is focused on the test. However in a match even when not already involved in a fight, you will often be thinking about other things going on such as where everyone is on the mini map and where your next rotation will be, if a deadeye opens from stealth on you without ever having been previously visible, you will not be as prepared to react immediately as you would if you know before hand that he is about to burst. And deadeye opening burst is absolutely a threat with a simple mark -> dj combo hitting 12k+ easily without requiring malice buildup and three round burst spam after that doing insane damage for follow up so saying you should know he is about to burst because of the mark is just false.

You raise very good points. I just used that test to show that even if you're ONLY watching for an incoming quickness DJ and have your finger over the button at all times, you still would be very hard pressed to dodge it. Depending on your latency, it is actually impossible.

As you say, with all the distractions, decisions and other complications of real combat, there's just no chance.

[KrHome.1920]

The sound of DJ alone makes it easier to dodge than spear of justice whose visuals can easily be covered.

Besides that I did not say both builds are equal to fight. I said both have equal cheese factor. Also reaction time is different in different environments and therefore insufficient to figure out which spec is easier to fight. ArthurDent explained the basics.

[Math.5123]

@KrHome.1920 said:The sound of DJ alone makes it easier to dodge than spear of justice whose visuals can easily be covered.

Besides that I did not say both builds are equal to fight. I said both have equal cheese factor. Also reaction time is different in different environments and therefore insufficient to figure out which spec is easier to fight. ArthurDent explained the basics.

Sound queue doesn't work when casted within 600 range and with quickness. The ability lands before the queue goes off.

[Hex.2579]

i'm not sure why OP didn't include mirage to the list. but i'd vote for deadeye because of stupid gameplay. if you don't die in 3 bursts, and get away, you'll die from steal and next following attacks especially on classes have little access to block.i can 1v1 a deadeye fine on my scourge but it's more of a battle between who's going to make the first mistake.if i get a chance, i'd vote for soulbeast too. the one shot bambi build and some op pets are annoying to fight against. out of all professions, Anet nerfed almost everything already except for soulbeast. come to think of it, i even feel like ranger is their fave class since all builds, condi, power, and even healing spec are great and in meta.

[Schwahrheit.4203]

Anything that spams evades while attacking, I'm looking at Guardian, Ranger, Mesmer specs tbh. Infact? Just make a Classic GW2 expansion already (People get to play elite specs but on "classic" mode only core specs are allowed) cause elite specs in general are just braindead garbage like ALL of them are braindead garbage, would be a smart move for ANET right now money-wise.

[asterix.9614]

Could you not have specified build? People like you are the reason us power shatter players got a heavy nerf for no reason, go specify condi mirage you dumb cunt.

[shippage.1983]

Deadeye is good and really trollish, but I really don't think it needs to be changed all that much. In organized games, it's still lackluster and is countered by good awareness, which is lacked in Solo Q (hence why it's much better in Ranked instead of ATs).

Firebrand still has way to much boon output and healing that makes every other healer obsolete, and there's simply no counterplay to this if both players are equally skilled because Firebrand's skills have about half a second cast time, can easily be spammed at will since they're ammo skills, and have near perma stability to never be interrupted. This leaves boon strip to be the /only/ counter.

The best way to deal with this is massive boon strip from Reaper or Thief, but Reaper tends to be only okayish and much easier to outplay, whereas Scourge is still better. The Scourge + Firebrand combo continues to dominate every since PoF release, and Anet has no idea how to actually balance it or understands why it is so good.

Instant resses from Firebrand is extremely hard to counter, with a very small window of counter play. You basically have to dodge their knockback, boon strip, and deal massive AoE damage to them in the span of about 2 seconds to actually stop their res which is ridiculous and overturned, especially since they have perma stability and you can't CC them. If you combine this with a blood scourge, which is very common in Solo Q, then they can teleport res as well and you basically can't secure any stomps unless you're extremely prepared for it. It requires too much focus and is way too effective in its current state and you see a Firebrand in every single try-hard AT team comp.

[gw niko.1049]

I´m pretty sure nerfing very selected abilitys, traits or classes that are consideret OP won´t solve the core issue here.

I just posted a Discusion about what I think the problems in combat and pvp are.Watch it out if you want.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/57860/the-fundamental-problem-in-pvp-combat?

[Math.5123]

@"Schwahrheit.4203" said:Anything that spams evades while attacking, I'm looking at Guardian, Ranger, Mesmer specs tbh. Infact? Just make a Classic GW2 expansion already (People get to play elite specs but on "classic" mode only core specs are allowed) cause elite specs in general are just braindead garbage like ALL of them are braindead garbage, would be a smart move for ANET right now money-wise.

Guardians are one of two classes that has no evade frames on weapon or utility skills.