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I don't even care about new raid wing if the balance's still terrible

Amineo.8951

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Blocki.4931

Blocki.4931

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@yann.1946 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

The Meta will reshuffle has it as always done, new tactics might get developed. Some people will leave because they don't like the direction the balance has taken

All that will happen is that bad groups will have even bigger issues clearing anything because lul no perma quickness and alacrity

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yann.1946

yann.1946

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

The Meta will reshuffle has it as always done, new tactics might get developed. Some people will leave because they don't like the direction the balance has taken

All that will happen is that bad groups will have even bigger issues clearing anything because lul no perma quickness and alacrity

Yes and you're point is? That will always be the consequence of a nerf.

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Blocki.4931

Blocki.4931

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@yann.1946 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

The Meta will reshuffle has it as always done, new tactics might get developed. Some people will leave because they don't like the direction the balance has taken

All that will happen is that bad groups will have even bigger issues clearing anything because lul no perma quickness and alacrity

Yes and you're point is? That will always be the consequence of a nerf.

Sorry, but if your pursuit of "balance" means making the game unplayable for a majority of people then ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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yann.1946

yann.1946

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@Blocki.4931 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

The Meta will reshuffle has it as always done, new tactics might get developed. Some people will leave because they don't like the direction the balance has taken

All that will happen is that bad groups will have even bigger issues clearing anything because lul no perma quickness and alacrity

Yes and you're point is? That will always be the consequence of a nerf.

Sorry, but if your pursuit of "balance" means making the game unplayable for a majority of people then ¯_(ツ)_/¯

That's quite an exaggeration isn't it, the game wouldn't become unplayable for a mayority of the players. The amount that a nerf would impact depends also on what they nerf. (I'm an advocate to change signet again).

The argument to not nerf because it would inconvenience people would just invite power creep.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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@Solori.6025 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

If you remove the things that make Chrono meta, then something else becomes meta. The best part is that there is another build (or even a whole different way of playing or making the composition of the team) that will allow that to happen in this game.
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Solori.6025

Solori.6025

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@Obtena.7952 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

If you remove the things that make Chrono meta, then something else becomes meta.As it always will.

The best part is that there is another build (or even a whole different way of playing or making the composition of the team) that will allow that to happen in this game.

That makes me wonder about team comps.I think it was said earlier, every class right now has something they can bring.If the devs lets say, completely removed what makes chrono meta, no more perma alacrity or quickness, no more mass boon share.Do you think team compositions will become better or worse? Or stay they same?Do you think the community will be more accepting or?

And these are questions for everyone.I'm genuinely curious

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Blocki.4931

Blocki.4931

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@Solori.6025 said:

@"NikeEU.7690" said:Balance is better now than its ever been. Maybe you just don't like raiding?

Because Chronomancer being God-tier after 3 years is good design for you? Stop lying to yourself Nike... I play FFXIV and it's night and day there, everything's taken minus Black Mage and Samurai... which are getting buffed next update to compensate for the lack of utilities, people understand the difference between progression and farming compositions there while in GW2, they think it's always speed clearing no matter what because of the hardcore guilds.

Uhmm Nike is correct in saying that overall balance right now is better than ever. DPS wise there are less outliers than before and more and more build become viable. Compare this to vanilla times or most of HoT when we had mirror comp.

And Chrono itself is not the problem. The lack of any alternative is the problem here. If you would nerf Chrono into oblivion then you would make team comps more restrictive. Is nerfing Chaos an option? Yes, but that would not solve the problem we have on the support balance right now.

I dont agree, even tho i love chrono i dont think the right answer is to fight powercreep woth powercreep.

Chrono needs nerfs.

What would fill the gap that chrono would leave, and be just as effective?

That's the point of how raids are designed in this game ... you don't need to be as effective as Chrono to replace it and be successful in raids.

.. So are you saying that an option to do the job chrono does already exist? What is it?If raids can already be done without chrono and your squad can be successful without them then why not just do the raids with those people that don't want the chrono?

Wait a minute ... I didn't say someone does Chrono's job ... I'm just saying you don't need one to successfully raid. See that's the problem with meta-think ... no ability to think outside the small, narrow path that everyone says you have to take to win ...

Why not? There isn't a reason ... and people run non-meta comps for raids all the time.

"Meta thinking" doesnt say u need a chrono to do the content. It says "the most optimal strats which yield the fastest and most efficient kills require one". Theres a difference.

And in this case ... what is meta for tanking? Oh right >< Unless you are going tell us a different, optimal way to complete a raid without Chrono tanking, I'm all for hearing it ... so is the guy that was asking me.

^ This..This is what I was getting to. (thank you obtena)Realize that people make meta builds because they want to achieve the maximum results ( or above average results depending on the player) possible

@Amineo.8951So yes, I agree with the large census that Chronomancer, specifically boonshare, is powerful, probably too powerful in it's role. (note I said probably)But NOTHING right now to my knowledge ( feel free anyone to inform me and other people here of the opposite) is as optimal than chrono.So what happens when you remove that?

If you remove the things that make Chrono meta, then something else becomes meta.As it always will.

The best part is that there is another build (or even a whole different way of playing or making the composition of the team) that will allow that to happen in this game.

That makes me wonder about team comps.I think it was said earlier, every class right now has something they can bring.If the devs lets say, completely removed what makes chrono meta, no more perma alacrity or quickness, no more mass boon share.Do you think team compositions will become better or worse? Or stay they same?Do you think the community will be more accepting or?

And these are questions for everyone.I'm genuinely curious

I don't think it will ever change because the game simply caters to the crowd that isn't suited (read: believes they aren't suited) for raid content and the negativity from all these people who don't even play it will always stick around.

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Obtena.7952

Obtena.7952

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Just my speculation:

If Anet were to 'spread out' the delicious things that people like to get, then there would still be a meta, but I believe also more general willingness to accept 'non-extreme' buffers or classes that fill roles with facerolling ease, like Chrono tanks. Things naturally 'spread around' when the top dog is removed ... You might see builds where Renegades are providing as much Alacrity as they can for instance ... of course not as good as a Chrono can. The difference is if you couldn't get a Renegade to do that, you might not think it's as big a deal because it doesn't have an extreme application of Alacrity that makes it so easy like a Chrono does.

I believe Anet wrecked their group instance experience for people enthusiastic for playing how they want from the get go due to the fact that they made classes with the capability to provide extreme buffs or extreme performance. That's transferred over to raids or other highly specialized buffs or abilities and emboldened meta pushers. Maybe that's Anet's intention; segregated areas of the game for people that think specific ways; that wasn't what I thought I was been sold when the game was released.

What honestly astounds me is that they are so blatant with this approach on Mesmer that you can't think it's anything BUT favouritism. I mean, I still think you can do successful raids without a Chrono, but why would you want to? I'm don't push the meta, but it's just SOO good that people are lining up in our group to play Chrono. It's like ... counter-meta ... the idea that you CHOOSE to play something you don't like because it's too good, not because someone told you to. We are asking people not focus on building raid-ready Chronos because there isn't a shortage for sure.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Obtena.7952 said:Just my speculation:

If Anet were to 'spread out' the delicious things that people like to get, then there would still be a meta, but I believe also more general willingness to accept 'non-extreme' buffers or classes that fill roles with facerolling ease, like Chrono tanks. Things naturally 'spread around' when the top dog is removed ... You might see builds where Renegades are providing as much Alacrity as they can for instance ... of course not as good as a Chrono can. The difference is if you couldn't get a Renegade to do that, you might not think it's as big a deal because it doesn't have an extreme application of Alacrity that makes it so easy like a Chrono does.

Possible but very unlikely. This depends highly on how easy it is and how restrictive the new meta is. See past examples with 6 fixed spots versus 4 now.

You are essentially assuming that the fixed spots will become more flexible to be filled while at the same time willing to sacrifice the access to damage spots.

The things which goes against this is:

  • the best in slot class will most often get picked. This becomes evident with damage dealers since even though damage requirements are lax, some groups demand best in slot dps per boss
  • unless all support alternatives allow for similar results (aka all classes that give alacrity or quickness has to be able to keep it up pemanent) which means class rebalance. Might as well just add 1-2 more support builds similar to chrono
  • the shift to a new meta might be of less concern to veteran player with access to multiple classes and with muscle memory of all bosses, it will disadvantage new players (though granted temporary shifts are no good reason to not implement a balance change)

@Obtena.7952 said:

I believe Anet wrecked their group instance experience for people enthusiastic for playing how they want from the get go due to the fact that they made classes with the capability to provide extreme buffs or extreme performance. That's transferred over to raids or other highly specialized buffs or abilities and emboldened meta pushers. Maybe that's Anet's intention; segregated areas of the game for people that think specific ways; that wasn't what I thought I was been sold when the game was released.

Please don't bring this here, any one worth their salt knows that this statement pertains to people being able to play which ever game mode they want to achieve their goals. This is more of an issue of not having access to legendary armor outside of raids for pve and NOT with class choice. Let's not open that box on this thread please.

@Obtena.7952 said:

What honestly astounds me is that they are so blatant with this approach on Mesmer that you can't think it's anything BUT favouritism. I mean, I still think you can do successful raids without a Chrono, but why would you want to? I'm don't push the meta, but it's just SOO good that people are lining up in our group to play Chrono. It's like ... counter-meta ... the idea that you CHOOSE to play something you don't like because it's too good, not because someone told you to. We are asking people not focus on building raid-ready Chronos because there isn't a shortage for sure.

Excellent, as chrono you are required to understand all raid encounter mechanics. Playing one for 1-2 sessions will prepare you for playing any other character or role with some minor adaptation. If you want to spice things up, run a tempest minstrel tank for W1-4 and see what immortal tanking actually looks like.

Chrono is not required, it is a very powerful support though for pve (there are arguably similar powerful supports for other game modes, Firebrand in WvW for example).

I'm still in favor of making boons 10 people wide for pve to reduce fixed support spots for raids even further. That would solve most issues people have with 2 chronos (which I still find an interesting complaint since some class will always have to fill that 10 spot even IF a full 9 class raid group was made, while some damage classes get stacked 6 of 1 kind on certain bosses).

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Blocki.4931

Blocki.4931

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@"Opopanax.1803" said:Chrono needs to be nerfed, regardless of what the chrono mains argue here.

I don't even have a mesmer at all, nice try though.

What's your argument? "One class shouldn't be good at two things"? or "This class isn't allowed to be the best at this for so long"? That argument worked on Ele, but I don't think it applies here. If you want a chrono nerf, the two strongest boons in the game need to be nerfed.

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Opopanax.1803

Opopanax.1803

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Naw, one class that can provide all bones should be nerfed, period.

Hey don't be offended. If there was a class that could do all of chronos boons +1, I'd ask for a nerf of that class as well.

You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Opopanax.1803 said:Naw, one class that can provide all bones should be nerfed, period.

Hey don't be offended. If there was a class that could do all of chronos boons +1, I'd ask for a nerf of that class as well.

You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Actually most argue that we need more classes able to provide the similar boons as chrono since that would not interfere as much with the entire raid meta and not create problems along the road.

Glad you are such an expert though.

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thrag.9740

thrag.9740

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@Opopanax.1803 said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

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Xantaria.8726

Xantaria.8726

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@thrag.9740 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

On top of that many actual dont mind if they remove the chaostrait (which as we know existed long before it actual became a thing). The only boons that are actual critical are might, fury, quickness and alac, everything else was and is optional.But hey, what do we know kappa ;).

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Opopanax.1803

Opopanax.1803

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@thrag.9740 said:

@"Opopanax.1803" said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

Maybe you are so blinded that you can't see how many roles chrono covers, how many boons it provides, and how many dps critical boo nd it provides that no other profession can touch.

But go ahead and keep telling yourself that it is "math" !o!! One of the best ones I've read in this thread. A really good laugh, thanks!

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Opopanax.1803

Opopanax.1803

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@Xantaria.8726 said:

@"Opopanax.1803" said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

On top of that many actual dont mind if they remove the chaostrait (which as we know existed long before it actual became a thing). The only boons that are actual critical are might, fury, quickness and alac, everything else was and is optional.But hey, what do we know kappa ;).

"Mesmer isn't op. Look, stop counting boons that aren't critical. Hey, you can only count the four that I think matter. Listen, it's not about the math right now, let's not talk about any outlier boons. "

Lol, you experts are doing great, keep going, please!

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Xantaria.8726

Xantaria.8726

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@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

On top of that many actual dont mind if they remove the chaostrait (which as we know existed long before it actual became a thing). The only boons that are actual critical are might, fury, quickness and alac, everything else was and is optional.But hey, what do we know kappa ;).

"Mesmer isn't op. Look, stop counting boo nd that aren't critical. Hey, you can only count the four that I think matter. Listen, it's not about the math right now, let's not talk about any outlier boons. "

Lol, you experts are doing great, keep going, please!

Why should i if the only counterargument you are bringing is getting personal?:P

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@"Opopanax.1803" said:So Cyninja, you (and supposedly "most") are saying all classes need to have an equal amount of boonshare and tanking capabilities? Really?

So your suggestion is that we now have 9 professions that look like chrono?

I hope you realize just how silly that suggestion is.

Is it? What about Firebrand in WvW? It's dominating the support meta in that game mode.

Is it so impossible to give 1-2 more classes access to quickness and alacrity (the 2 boons which are quintessential to chrono, unlike your chrono brings all boons theory) and then reduce their damage output enough to not make them overpowered in other game modes?

What about making boons affect 10 people and thus removing the necessity to bring 2 chronos and opening up more classes to be used as tank (since chrono can just run support)?

All possibilities which would mess less with the meta, not increase the toxicity that if PUGing AND address the issue.

But I'm sure you gave all those ideas ample thought and decided nerfing is the only valid approach, on a build which excels in 1 game mode out of 3 (since I do not see people complain about chrono in spvp or wvw).

Rest assured, many people arguing here have put hours of thought into this game mode as well as days, weeks, months and years of experience and practice on multiple classes.

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Opopanax.1803

Opopanax.1803

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@Xantaria.8726 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

On top of that many actual dont mind if they remove the chaostrait (which as we know existed long before it actual became a thing). The only boons that are actual critical are might, fury, quickness and alac, everything else was and is optional.But hey, what do we know kappa ;).

"Mesmer isn't op. Look, stop counting boo nd that aren't critical. Hey, you can only count the four that I think matter. Listen, it's not about the math right now, let's not talk about any outlier boons. "

Lol, you experts are doing great, keep going, please!

Why should i if the only counterargument you are bringing is getting personal?:P

How is throwing the irony of you saying that you aren't counting all of chrono boons back at you a personal attack, exactly. It clearly points out how biased you are.

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Opopanax.1803 said:

@Opopanax.1803 said:You guys keep argueing that its ok to have a single class that is +1 to every other support class, yet seem to be unable to see why that isn't ok.

Maybe we are arguing because certain people in these types of threads like to lump everything that gives a boon or heals into the same vague term, 'support' even though some of those builds do 10k with no healing and some do 25k with no healing, and then complain that the 25k dps builds don't give as many boons as the 10k builds....

Maybe we are arguing because some of us actually bother to take the time to do quantitative analysis of balance, and others just want to hop on the bandwagon and parrot the same old talking point because they are too lazy to do any type of math.

On top of that many actual dont mind if they remove the chaostrait (which as we know existed long before it actual became a thing). The only boons that are actual critical are might, fury, quickness and alac, everything else was and is optional.But hey, what do we know kappa ;).

"Mesmer isn't op. Look, stop counting boons that aren't critical. Hey, you can only count the four that I think matter. Listen, it's not about the math right now, let's not talk about any outlier boons. "

Lol, you experts are doing great, keep going, please!

Actually that is a valid issue. Chrono was meta for quickness and alacrity before chaos became a thing. It would remain meta even if chaos was nerfed for those 2 boons alone. (and on certain bosses good chronos switch to Dueling/Illusion build and do not provide 8 boon up-time already in the meta, just saying)

Chrono is being taken for quickness and alacrity, and the only raid essential boons are quickness, alacrity, fury and might. I'm not going to explain why that is the case, that's first class raid knowledge.

Now making more support classes get taken for different boons would make the meta more rigid but that is not a chrono issue.

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Opopanax.1803

Opopanax.1803

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All of those things are possible, Cyninja. Yet all of those things simply powercreeps the game.

Your suggestion would to be to make every profession as powerful as chrono.My solution is to bring chrono back down to a normal level, avoiding powercreep. This game already has to much.

But I'm sure you have invested hours pondering the best conclusion, so I should just follow your lead because you talk more than anyone in this thread.

"Vote no to Cyninja and powercreep. I am Opopanax, and I approve this message."

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Cyninja.2954

Cyninja.2954

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@Opopanax.1803 said:All of those things are possible, Cyninja. Yet all of those things simply powercreeps the game.

Your suggestion would to be to make every profession as powerful as chrono.My solution is to bring chrono back down to a normal level, avoiding powercreep. This game already has to much.

Explain power creep to me please, how is it power creep is you change 2 more support classes to provide quickness and alacrity with drastically reduced damage making them only useful in fractals and raids (as is chrono right now).

You are still only bringing 1 per fractal and 2 per raid. No reason to bring low dps classes once boons are covered.

What is excatly the power creep here? Please explain.

@Opopanax.1803 said:But I'm sure you have invested hours pondering the best conclusion, so I should just follow your lead because you talk more than anyone in this thread."Vote no to Cyninja and powercreep. I am Opopanax, and I approve this message."

Nope, simply responding in kind to your assumption every body but you is an idiot.

Getting personal also does not make you look smarter.

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