there isn't a single meta condition build left

[Hyper Cutter.9376]

@Megametzler.5729 said:People complained about condi mirage and about condi scourge... the two classes that are still viable on condi...^^More precisely, they whined and whined about conditions in general when they were made at scourge and mirage specifically, because people can't stop doing that for some reason.

[Arheundel.6451]

Damage that relies on a single stat to be effective should never be on par with power dmg which requires 3 stats to be useful, condition builds are and will remain low skill=high reward gameplay until they fix the way condition damage works in this game...

Condition damage can only be countered by heavy condi clearing and resistance with the latter being rather rare across professions meanwhile power dmg has to contend with toughness/protection/weakness/direct heal and regen boons; direct damage can't reduce the effects of healing and more respect to condi dmg, expecting condi builds to perform as well as power spec is simply a request for low skill=high reward gameplay.

[Arheundel.6451]

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:Well with firebrands and decent warriors(shake it off, clears like 5 condis i think from yourself and allies) in almost every game, clearing condis from one source isnt so diffacult any more. But if you got 2 scourges or 2 of any condi dpser its practically immpossible to have enough clearing.I feel condi is still very strong its just not a free kill if they land all there condis any more. Like power classes they have to work alittle more now....however there are exception tp this like mesmer that class can put out an enormous amount of confusion, ans since confusion doesnt have an icd i feel its still really really powerful.

Problem is condi builds players are used to play broken AF specs or "free kill if they land all there condis" as you elegantly explained

[Megametzler.5729]

@Hyper Cutter.9376 said:

@"Megametzler.5729" said:People complained about condi mirage and about condi scourge... the two classes that are still viable on condi...^^More precisely, they whined and whined about conditions in general when they were made at scourge and mirage specifically, because people can't stop doing that for some reason.

I don't know, who is "they"? Apart from these two and condi thief no condi build was significantly buffed or nerfed in the last months...

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@"Eddbopkins.2630" said:Well with firebrands and decent warriors(shake it off, clears like 5 condis i think from yourself and allies) in almost every game, clearing condis from one source isnt so diffacult any more. But if you got 2 scourges or 2 of any condi dpser its practically immpossible to have enough clearing.I feel condi is still very strong its just not a free kill if they land all there condis any more. Like power classes they have to work alittle more now....however there are exception tp this like mesmer that class can put out an enormous amount of confusion, ans since confusion doesnt have an icd i feel its still really really powerful.

Problem is condi builds players are used to play broken AF specs or "free kill if they land all there condis" as you elegantly explained

Yeah, I played sage ele for quite some time. What a broken shit ass condi spec! All the free kills!

[Peutrifectus.4830]

And power isn't free kill if you land the burst?

[SoulSin.5682]

@"Peutrifectus.4830" said:And power isn't free kill if you land the burst?

There are more options to counter power damage then Condi Damage."if you land a burst" is also a problem in itself. The disadvantage of dealing 20k damage in 0,5 seconds is that the dodge animation also lasts 0,5 seconds.Dodge once and you are on cooldown and the opponent has his whole kit to deal with you.

[coro.3176]

@Arheundel.6451 said:Damage that relies on a single stat to be effective should never be on par with power dmg which requires 3 stats to be useful, condition builds are and will remain low skill=high reward gameplay until they fix the way condition damage works in this game...

Condition damage can only be countered by heavy condi clearing and resistance with the latter being rather rare across professions meanwhile power dmg has to contend with toughness/protection/weakness/direct heal and regen boons; direct damage can't reduce the effects of healing and more respect to condi dmg, expecting condi builds to perform as well as power spec is simply a request for low skill=high reward gameplay.

This might make sense if the tanky amulets still existed in PvP, but they don't. If you're playing condi, you're just as squishy as power right now, but with the added disadvantage of your opponent entirely negating your damage multiple times per heal cycle and having to survive a longer time before your damage actually sinks in.

I don't buy the skill argument either. That may be the case for a few builds (eg. thief), but on engi for example, you need to get in melee range and land a non-evasive glitchy front-cone attack with a cast time and a medium cooldown. It's way more prone to error than ALL of holo's attacks. If you miss that or it's cleansed or resisted, you're missing most of your damage pressure for the next 12s. If holo (or any power build) misses an attack, they just use any other attack and keep applying pressure as if nothing happened.'' .. and this is the case for a lot of other condi builds (thief, mirage, scourge excepted).

Condi revenant - closer range, harder to land skills, less evasiveCondi ranger - closer range, harder to land skills, less defenseCondi warrior - .. does this even exist any more? definitely harder to land skills and less sustain/defenseCondi ele - .. did this ever exist? I don't think I've ever died to ele condi and I run the bare minimum of cleanseCondi guard - squishy, takes the same risk as power, but with the added disadvantage of relying on a single condi which is easily cleansed

[Eddbopkins.2630]

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:And power isn't free kill if you land the burst?

No its not...a few classes have invuln traits that stop the power burst free kill....i dont know of anything other then condi clearing to stop a condi burst. There are so many ways to stop a power burst even mid burst can be haulted with either shocking aura or a skillful utility use or a traited invuln as mention earlyier.

[Milan.9035]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:And power isn't free kill if you land the burst?

No its not...a few classes have invuln traits that stop the power burst free kill....i dont know of anything other then condi clearing to stop a condi burst. There are so many ways to stop a power burst even mid burst can be haulted with either shocking aura or a skillful utility use or a traited invuln as mention earlyier.

Everything you said applies to condi. I dont even know why know why i am correcting you, i feel like you either don't know the game or refuse to learn. Life must be hard in the bronze condi wars.

[malisivo.5264]

Unlike Condi Mirage and Condi Scourge, where a single skill or a few skills are activated to apply multiple conditions, most Condi damage specs take multiple steps for them to apply and reapply conditions, sometimes just one or two conditions with multiple stacks. There are very few burst specs that can hit as hard as power in today's meta that can still be negated with the amount of Condi cleanses, evades, or immunities each class has at their disposal. Condi is very clearly out of the meta.

I play Condi trapper Soulbeast, completely off-meta, but an absolute joy to play. No Condi burst, a true damage over time spec that uses only two conditions (that can be cleared easily, btw), poison and bleeding. I've been lingering around gold 2 and 3, but that doesn't keep me from loving what I play. I believe it takes skill to use most, if not all, Condi specs. I cannot, for the life of me, one shot with my spec.

[Arheundel.6451]

@Milan.9035 said:

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:

@Peutrifectus.4830 said:And power isn't free kill if you land the burst?

No its not...a few classes have invuln traits that stop the power burst free kill....i dont know of anything other then condi clearing to stop a condi burst. There are so many ways to stop a power burst even mid burst can be haulted with either shocking aura or a skillful utility use or a traited invuln as mention earlyier.

Everything you said applies to condi. I dont even know why know why i am correcting you, i feel like you either don't know the game or refuse to learn. Life must be hard in the bronze condi wars.

The only reason for people to push for condi specs is for the almost complete lack of counterplay ...and let me be more precise because people tend to take words out of contest for their own convenience : condi dmg has less direct counters compared to direct dmg

Hypothetically speaking if there would a condi variant of protection and weakness or if condi dmg would require 3 stats to be as effective as direct dmg...I do wonder what would be the logical reason to push for condi dmg

[Peutrifectus.4830]

No it doesn't. Condi skills still have tells just like power, some don't, just like power, condi dmg is the only stat you need yes. But that will not exceed 2k often unless uber stacked with food and utility. Power on the other hand is easy to exceed 2k and is multiplactive with other stats whereas condi specs don't really benefit from precision or ferocity.

I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that.

[Arheundel.6451]

@coro.3176 said:

@"Arheundel.6451" said:Damage that relies on a single stat to be effective should never be on par with power dmg which requires 3 stats to be useful, condition builds are and will remain low skill=high reward gameplay until they fix the way condition damage works in this game...

Condition damage can only be countered by heavy condi clearing and resistance with the latter being rather rare across professions meanwhile power dmg has to contend with toughness/protection/weakness/direct heal and regen boons; direct damage can't reduce the effects of healing and more respect to condi dmg, expecting condi builds to perform as well as power spec is simply a request for low skill=high reward gameplay.

This might make sense

if

the tanky amulets still existed in PvP, but they don't. If you're playing condi, you're just as squishy as power right now, but with the added disadvantage of your opponent entirely negating your damage multiple times per heal cycle and having to survive a longer time before your damage actually sinks in.

I don't buy the skill argument either. That may be the case for a few builds (eg. thief), but on engi for example, you need to get in melee range and land a non-evasive glitchy front-cone attack with a cast time and a medium cooldown. It's way more prone to error than ALL of holo's attacks. If you miss that or it's cleansed or resisted, you're missing most of your damage pressure for the next 12s. If holo (or any power build) misses an attack, they just use any other attack and keep applying pressure as if nothing happened.'' .. and this is the case for a lot of other condi builds (thief, mirage, scourge excepted).

Condi revenant - closer range, harder to land skills, less evasiveCondi ranger - closer range, harder to land skills, less defenseCondi warrior - .. does this even exist any more? definitely harder to land skills and less sustain/defenseCondi ele - .. did this ever exist? I don't think I've ever died to ele condi and I run the bare minimum of cleanseCondi guard - squishy, takes the same risk as power, but with the added disadvantage of relying on a single condi which is easily cleansed

Your comment is completely non related to my post as you conveniently picked the few bits you could build an "argument" on.......

There are no condis or boon reducing the damage and effects of condi damage and neither there is a stats that reduce incoming condition damage but on the contrary there are boons and condis which reduce the damage/effects of power builds

Another major problem with condi builds is that over 90% of skills in game that apply condis are aoe on short/medium CD that require no LoS in most cases....no strategy required just zerg run from point to point aoe condi bomb all around you...easy..braindead gameplay and reason why necro/mesmer have been tournament meta for the last 6 years and why condi thief has plagued wvw for years too

Condition damage requires a single stat to be effective and that allows people to build as a dealing damage tank, there is no standard stat that reduce its effects and neither we have a common anti condi boon/condition and these are the reason why people love condi builds so much and if I am wrong do pls give us a logical reason and this time answer only this point

[Zaraki.5784]

Mirage is in the tier ABOVE meta:MirageMeta buildsOthers

[coro.3176]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Damage that relies on a single stat to be effective should never be on par with power dmg which requires 3 stats to be useful, condition builds are and will remain low skill=high reward gameplay until they fix the way condition damage works in this game...

Condition damage can only be countered by heavy condi clearing and resistance with the latter being rather rare across professions meanwhile power dmg has to contend with toughness/protection/weakness/direct heal and regen boons; direct damage can't reduce the effects of healing and more respect to condi dmg, expecting condi builds to perform as well as power spec is simply a request for low skill=high reward gameplay.

This might make sense

if

the tanky amulets still existed in PvP, but they don't. If you're playing condi, you're just as squishy as power right now, but with the added disadvantage of your opponent entirely negating your damage multiple times per heal cycle and having to survive a longer time before your damage actually sinks in.

I don't buy the skill argument either. That may be the case for a few builds (eg. thief), but on engi for example, you need to get in melee range and land a non-evasive glitchy front-cone attack with a cast time and a medium cooldown. It's way more prone to error than ALL of holo's attacks. If you miss that or it's cleansed or resisted, you're missing most of your damage pressure for the next 12s. If holo (or any power build) misses an attack, they just use any other attack and keep applying pressure as if nothing happened.'' .. and this is the case for a lot of other condi builds (thief, mirage, scourge excepted).

Condi revenant - closer range, harder to land skills, less evasiveCondi ranger - closer range, harder to land skills, less defenseCondi warrior - .. does this even exist any more? definitely harder to land skills and less sustain/defenseCondi ele - .. did this ever exist? I don't think I've ever died to ele condi and I run the bare minimum of cleanseCondi guard - squishy, takes the same risk as power, but with the added disadvantage of relying on a single condi which is easily cleansed

Your comment is completely non related to my post as you conveniently picked the few bits you could build an "argument" on.......

There are no condis or boon reducing the damage and effects of condi damage and neither there is a stats that reduce incoming condition damage

but on the contrary there are boons and condis which reduce the damage/effects of power builds

Resistance, Vitality, Cleanse skills, Cleanse traits

Another major problem with condi builds is that over 90% of skills in game that apply condis are aoe on short/medium CD that require no LoS in most cases....no strategy required just zerg run from point to point aoe condi bomb all around you...easy..braindead gameplay and reason why necro/mesmer have been tournament meta for the last 6 years and why condi thief has plagued wvw for years too

This is just blatantly false. List examples please. You're just wrong. 90%? I'd say maaaaybe 5%, but please do list examples. Note that ground-targeted aoes don't count because they still require LoS from the caster's position.

Condition damage requires a single stat to be effective and that allows people to build as a dealing damage tank, there is no standard stat that reduce its effects and neither we have a common anti condi boon/condition and these are the reason why people love condi builds so much and if I am wrong do pls give us a logical reason and this time answer only this point

False, they require 2 stats: expertise and condition damage. It's just that no one bothers with expertise because there's so much cleanse the condi never ticks for even 1/4 of it's duration anyway. Again, you can't be a condi tank. They removed the tanky amulets. Any defense + sustain is coming from class skills and is not specific to "condi". Furthermore, any defense that works on power skills ALSO works on condi skills. You can block and evade them just the same. With the exception of Mirage and Thief, it's actually far easier than defending against power.

People don't love condi builds much: check the stats. With the exception of a few (mirage, thief, scourge), you will basically never see a condi build in your pvp games. They are pretty rare.

[BlackBeard.2873]

Hyperbole all around.

Are mirage/scourge (both condi) still dominant?...YesIs there way too much condi burst on these builds due to traits/corrupts/procs loading 1 skill with 4-5 condis, or lots of stacks?...YesHas cleanse been power-crept just as much (Shake it off cleanses 6 condis, Firebrands poop out cleanses like a someone just chugged ex-lax, etc) ....Yes

Is power-creep the real problem....YES

A few condi builds are so dominant, that they warp the meta to the point where everyone is so overloaded with cleanse that any condi build that isn't mirage/scourge just can't compete. Once upon a time, people had limited cleanse, and condi had a restrained application rate. Good players could win by being smart about cleansing the important stacks, while condi players could win by properly stacking their damage condis and deliberately burying them with cover condis. It was truly an attrition playstyle.

Mirage and scourge, instead, are burst play-styles. The land a single skill and you have a huge stack of damage condis + 3-4 cover condis instantly. This requires many, frequent, burst cleanses to not be insta-killed, which also means that anybody with that old attrition playstyle is wasting their time. Nerf the condi burst, and the condi cleanse.

Or, and what is far more likely, just keep power-creeping the game into a competitive grave!

[Tact.8063]

@Arheundel.6451 said:

@coro.3176 said:

@Arheundel.6451 said:Damage that relies on a single stat to be effective should never be on par with power dmg which requires 3 stats to be useful, condition builds are and will remain low skill=high reward gameplay until they fix the way condition damage works in this game...

Condition damage can only be countered by heavy condi clearing and resistance with the latter being rather rare across professions meanwhile power dmg has to contend with toughness/protection/weakness/direct heal and regen boons; direct damage can't reduce the effects of healing and more respect to condi dmg, expecting condi builds to perform as well as power spec is simply a request for low skill=high reward gameplay.

This might make sense

if

the tanky amulets still existed in PvP, but they don't. If you're playing condi, you're just as squishy as power right now, but with the added disadvantage of your opponent entirely negating your damage multiple times per heal cycle and having to survive a longer time before your damage actually sinks in.

I don't buy the skill argument either. That may be the case for a few builds (eg. thief), but on engi for example, you need to get in melee range and land a non-evasive glitchy front-cone attack with a cast time and a medium cooldown. It's way more prone to error than ALL of holo's attacks. If you miss that or it's cleansed or resisted, you're missing most of your damage pressure for the next 12s. If holo (or any power build) misses an attack, they just use any other attack and keep applying pressure as if nothing happened.'' .. and this is the case for a lot of other condi builds (thief, mirage, scourge excepted).

Condi revenant - closer range, harder to land skills, less evasiveCondi ranger - closer range, harder to land skills, less defenseCondi warrior - .. does this even exist any more? definitely harder to land skills and less sustain/defenseCondi ele - .. did this ever exist? I don't think I've ever died to ele condi and I run the bare minimum of cleanseCondi guard - squishy, takes the same risk as power, but with the added disadvantage of relying on a single condi which is easily cleansed

Your comment is completely non related to my post as you conveniently picked the few bits you could build an "argument" on.......

There are no condis or boon reducing the damage and effects of condi damage and neither there is a stats that reduce incoming condition damage

but on the contrary there are boons and condis which reduce the damage/effects of power builds

Another major problem with condi builds is that

over 90% of skills in game that apply condis are aoe on short/medium CD that require no LoS in most cases

....no strategy required just zerg run from point to point aoe condi bomb all around you...easy..braindead gameplay and reason why necro/mesmer have been tournament meta for the last 6 years and why condi thief has plagued wvw for years too

Condition damage requires a single stat to be effective and that allows people to build as a dealing damage tank, there is no standard stat that reduce its effects and neither we have a common anti condi boon/condition

and these are the reason why people love condi builds so much

and if I am wrong do pls give us a logical reason and this time answer only this point

light aura reduce condition damage by 10%

but one importent point you do forget is that condition have duration and apply damage over time and its 2 state not one condition damage and expertise that make us deadly , a power build can burst us while we are condition are killing them its per tick damage not instatonius and hence we cant just kill you in seconds (i could in past with tourch burst in 6 second 20k damage but it got nerferd to 20k damage in 20 second(it is posible to half the damage by dodging right or just 1 condition clease the skill has cool down of 30 -25 second (2 skill to do that)) so yes condition are nerfed to extend that if you run 1 condition clease power burst with right play will we kill them)

• even if you have so many condition and no way to clease all you need is rally yourself by downing opponent to 25% hp in down state and kill them when you go down (all condition are remove when you go down and you become invunrable for 1 second)

i cant kill bunker ele as mesmer it does not help in few match it kept following me ,,i had to leave a 1v1 ele even if it is close..."shake it of" is absurd while warrior has so much resistance it still have a count skill on 40 second charge that clean 6 condition on ALL members.......

i was killed by a warrior (spellbreaker) who had 10% hp i had down deadeye i had25 % hp (5k) but because i dont have boon removel warrior use heal siget get 6 second rusistance (i am bursting him in hope i had i can survibe some how it was 4v4 mid, if i leave he will heal dead eye and guess what i died and ralled thief my team could not do 2v3 win and blame me for fighting and targeting deadeye... seriuly )