Superior Sigil of Nullification [Merged]

[yann.1946]

To give a positive change of the sigil spike.My brother started playing the game a few months ago. Yesterday he had like 4 gold on his name Imagine the joy when he realized the bow arc that dropped for him was worth 10g

And can people please stop conflating reliable personal source with a reliable source.

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:My concern is this turning into a common trait every new episode release, which in turn makes it so I don’t feel like playing the episode and thus slowly finding some other game to play, I guess. Which is sad, since I’ve been playing this franchise since 2005 and this is the first time the game has made me feel this way.

I don't see why, it's the not the first time content has affected prices of mats people want to buy on the TP.

Not sure honestly. I didn’t freak out when the price of mystic coins went up. Though there are reliable ways of obtaining those too. The same can’t be said for this sigil.

Mystic coins supply is steady and dependant. You don't really pay for MCs. You pay to get them

faster

, which is one of the points that tones the arguments down. Still, even with them, the situation was so out of control that Anet was eventually forced to intervene, adding new supply sources of them to the game. And they were never even close to the Sigil levels of restricted supply.

@Psientist.6437 said:Forgive my intruding, but if using terms accurately is important then we waste time talking about the studio's realized gain. We have no way to measure their realized gain. We can with a high level of confidence, describe their intended gains.Their number one intention was to control the rate at which players completed the collection by gating access with RNG and the market. The studio can profit from market gating.

Are you harboring confidence in a different theory of the studio's intent? Do you suspect something more sinister?No, i simply do not agree with you, because i see no point in it. There's no gain in controlling the rate of completing the collection. No profit to be had here. Quite the opposite - it makes a number of players that would otherwise be playing said content disinterested with it and abandon the collection completely.

So, again, how exactly are they benefitting from the situation?

Thank you for responding. Forgive me for calling your bluff, but you must offer your own hypothesis for the studio's intended gain. If we discount the (obvious to any gamer or Tyrian disinterested in tearing down the studio) intended gain from controlling the rate of reward production and market gating then we are left with your vague suspicions that the studio has sinister intent and a way to gain from being sinister.

Or...

Are you suggesting that the intended gains I am describing do not correspond to the realized gains resulting in a 'mistake' or 'misjudgement'?

[Psientist.6437]

@yann.1946 said:To give a positive change of the sigil spike.My brother started playing the game a few months ago. Yesterday he had like 4 gold on his name Imagine the joy when he realized the bow arc that dropped for him was worth 10g

And can people please stop conflating reliable personal source with a reliable source.

No, because that is where we find the competitive market as well as the handshake between the studio and every individual Tyrian. Conflating does not mean comparing and contrasting, the overwhelming majority of us from both sides of the discussion are comparing and contrasting, not conflating.

[Psientist.6437]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Their number one intention was to control the rate at which players completed the collection by gating access with RNG and the market. The studio can profit from market gating.

I believe they've been trying to find new ways of gating collections through the Living World episodes.Istan has the brandstone grind to get the new weapon skins.Sandswept has the IG collection that takes you to lots of different places even outside the mapKourna has the turret collectionNow we have the Requiem collection

Notice how all of the above are meant not to simply gate the collections acquisition (turrets aren't even a collection) but keep players playing on the new map. And I understand this kind of reasoning, they want to find ways to keep players playing the new maps for as long as possible. Even the Requiem collection (outside the sigil) serves that same purpose. But there is no way to get the sigil from that map, it doesn't bring players together to play in the new zone, unlike all the other methods. Instead it sends players away, as there are better gold farms in the game.

Calling it the number one intention was/is lazy. Controlling the production rate is a primary consideration and since controlling the production rate of rewards is morally ambiguous, how it is accomplished describes art.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Psientist.6437 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Their number one intention was to control the rate at which players completed the collection by gating access with RNG and the market. The studio can profit from market gating.

I believe they've been trying to find new ways of gating collections through the Living World episodes.Istan has the brandstone grind to get the new weapon skins.Sandswept has the IG collection that takes you to lots of different places even outside the mapKourna has the turret collectionNow we have the Requiem collection

Notice how all of the above are meant not to simply gate the collections acquisition (turrets aren't even a collection) but keep players playing on the new map. And I understand this kind of reasoning, they want to find ways to keep players playing the new maps for as long as possible. Even the Requiem collection (outside the sigil) serves that same purpose. But there is no way to get the sigil from that map, it doesn't bring players together to play in the new zone, unlike all the other methods. Instead it sends players away, as there are better gold farms in the game.

Calling it the number one intention was/is lazy. Controlling the production rate is a primary consideration and since controlling the production rate of rewards is morally ambiguous, how it is accomplished describes art.

Huh I didn't call it number one intention that's what you did, I simply compared the different methods used on different episodes for gating access. Only one method sent players away.

[Psientist.6437]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:Their number one intention was to control the rate at which players completed the collection by gating access with RNG and the market. The studio can profit from market gating.

I believe they've been trying to find new ways of gating collections through the Living World episodes.Istan has the brandstone grind to get the new weapon skins.Sandswept has the IG collection that takes you to lots of different places even outside the mapKourna has the turret collectionNow we have the Requiem collection

Notice how all of the above are meant not to simply gate the collections acquisition (turrets aren't even a collection) but keep players playing on the new map. And I understand this kind of reasoning, they want to find ways to keep players playing the new maps for as long as possible. Even the Requiem collection (outside the sigil) serves that same purpose. But there is no way to get the sigil from that map, it doesn't bring players together to play in the new zone, unlike all the other methods. Instead it sends players away, as there are better gold farms in the game.

Calling it the number one intention was/is lazy. Controlling the production rate is a primary consideration and since controlling the production rate of rewards is morally ambiguous, how it is accomplished describes art.

Huh I didn't call it number one intention that's what you did, I simply compared the different methods used on different episodes for gating access. Only one method sent players away.

I was/am calling myself lazy, not you.

[yann.1946]

@Psientist.6437 said:

@yann.1946 said:To give a positive change of the sigil spike.My brother started playing the game a few months ago. Yesterday he had like 4 gold on his name Imagine the joy when he realized the bow arc that dropped for him was worth 10g

And can people please stop conflating reliable personal source with a reliable source.

No, because that is where we find the competitive market as well as the handshake between the studio and every individual Tyrian. Conflating does not mean comparing and contrasting, the overwhelming majority of us from both sides of the discussion are comparing and contrasting, not conflating.

We'll then a lot of people are lying when they say their is no reliable source. As long as enough people are playing a consistent amount of sigils get generated.

If course this is not true on a personal level.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Obtena.7952 said:The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.Oh,can't they? What about the collection items and assault/defence event case? They keep repeating that mistake over and over again, even though they already knew this is a problem years ago. And have made this mistake not once, not twice, but many times over.

So, yes, they very much can repeat known mistakes for years. It's not only not impossible, but it's something that actually does happen.

@Psientist.6437 said:Thank you for responding. Forgive me for calling your bluff, but you must offer your own hypothesis for the studio's intended gain. If we discount the (obvious to any gamer or Tyrian disinterested in tearing down the studio) intended gain from controlling the rate of reward production and market gating then we are left with your vague suspicions that the studio has sinister intent and a way to gain from being sinister.

Or...

Are you suggesting that the intended gains I am describing do not correspond to the realized gains resulting in a 'mistake' or 'misjudgement'?

No, i suggest that there are no gains, because it was not intentional - i am sure they simply messed up. That they picked this item not due to some strategy, but purely for narrativic reasons, and that they forgot to check for potential market consequences. Like they did many times before. It is of course possible that i am mistaken, and they do get something out of it, but so far not only me, but noone was able to say what it might be.

Any other option i can think of requires Anet to be either actively malicious, or intending to hurt their own business, and both of those i consider to be quite ridiculous.

[Psientist.6437]

At the risk of pretending to speak for the studio...

If we keep the production of recipe items constrained with a zone, we increase the probability that our design forces a player to do something they don't want to do. > @yann.1946 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:

@yann.1946 said:To give a positive change of the sigil spike.My brother started playing the game a few months ago. Yesterday he had like 4 gold on his name Imagine the joy when he realized the bow arc that dropped for him was worth 10g

And can people please stop conflating reliable personal source with a reliable source.

No, because that is where we find the competitive market as well as the handshake between the studio and every individual Tyrian. Conflating does not mean comparing and contrasting, the overwhelming majority of us from both sides of the discussion are comparing and contrasting, not conflating.

We'll then a lot of people are lying when they say their is no reliable source. As long as enough people are playing a consistent amount of sigils get generated.

If course this is not true on a personal level.

Not lying, just speaking from a place where earning themselves has tremendous personal value.

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

The studio can not 'mess up' for six years and have that 'mess up' be that severe of a 'mess up'. Your entire argument, that the studio is simply incompetent, tries to stand on an impossible proposition.

Oh,can't they? What about the collection items and assault/defence event case? They keep repeating that mistake over and over again, even though they already knew this is a problem years ago. And have made this mistake not once, not twice, but many times over.

@Psientist.6437 said:Thank you for responding. Forgive me for calling your bluff, but you must offer your own hypothesis for the studio's intended gain. If we discount the (obvious to any gamer or Tyrian disinterested in tearing down the studio) intended gain from controlling the rate of reward production and market gating then we are left with your vague suspicions that the studio has sinister intent and a way to gain from being sinister.

Or...

Are you suggesting that the intended gains I am describing do not correspond to the realized gains resulting in a 'mistake' or 'misjudgement'?

No, i suggest that there are no gains, because it was not intentional - i am sure they simply messed up. That they picked this item not due to some strategy, but purely for narrativic reasons, and that they forgot to check for potential market consequences. Like they did many times before. It is of course possible that i am mistaken, and they do get something out of it, but so far not only me, but

noone

was able to say what it might be.

When the game was first released, the studio posted a video from the data analytics team demonstrating how much data the game generated and how easily they could query that data set. The studio knows the supply of any item and can place that item within a relative matrix of every other item. If we take the supply of any item and divide it by the number needed for a reward recipe, we get the production rate. If the studio failed to do that calculation, then they did not make a mistake, they committed malpractice.

[yann.1946]

@Psientist.6437 said:At the risk of pretending to speak for the studio...

If we keep the production of recipe items constrained with a zone, we increase the probability that our design forces a player to do something they don't want to do. > @yann.1946 said:

@Psientist.6437 said:

@yann.1946 said:To give a positive change of the sigil spike.My brother started playing the game a few months ago. Yesterday he had like 4 gold on his name Imagine the joy when he realized the bow arc that dropped for him was worth 10g

And can people please stop conflating reliable personal source with a reliable source.

No, because that is where we find the competitive market as well as the handshake between the studio and every individual Tyrian. Conflating does not mean comparing and contrasting, the overwhelming majority of us from both sides of the discussion are comparing and contrasting, not conflating.

We'll then a lot of people are lying when they say their is no reliable source. As long as enough people are playing a consistent amount of sigils get generated.

If course this is not true on a personal level.

Not lying, just speaking from a place where earning themselves has tremendous personal value.

But then they should say personal source not source. Otherwise we get discussions where people are arguing because they don't understand the point the other is making

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Psientist.6437" said:

No, i suggest that there are no gains, because it was not intentional - i am sure they simply messed up. That they picked this item not due to some strategy, but purely for narrativic reasons, and that they forgot to check for potential market consequences. Like they did many times before. It is of course possible that i am mistaken, and they do get something out of it, but so far not only me, but

noone

was able to say what it might be.

When the game was first released, the studio posted a video from the data analytics team demonstrating how much data the game generated and how easily they could query that data set. The studio knows the supply of any item and can place that item within a relative matrix of every other item. If we take the supply of any item and divide it by the number needed for a reward recipe, we get the production rate. If the studio failed to do that calculation, then they did not make a mistake, they committed malpractice.Nah, they simply didn't consider it relevant. There's always a ton of things to check, and is easy to forget about one or two. It's something that happens with each episode, and sometimes what they didn't check ends up being way more spectacular. Like "blocking progress bugs" or "map crash" kind of spectacular. Compared to those Sigil is peanuts.

If you've ever worked on a major programming project, you would know that things like this are quite common.

(and as for the difference between being able to query a data, and being able to understand and interpret that data, check their explanation for removal of Twilight Arbor Forward/UP path).

[Psientist.6437]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@"Psientist.6437" said:

No, i suggest that there are no gains, because it was not intentional - i am sure they simply messed up. That they picked this item not due to some strategy, but purely for narrativic reasons, and that they forgot to check for potential market consequences. Like they did many times before. It is of course possible that i am mistaken, and they do get something out of it, but so far not only me, but

noone

was able to say what it might be.

When the game was first released, the studio posted a video from the data analytics team demonstrating how much data the game generated and how easily they could query that data set. The studio knows the supply of any item and can place that item within a relative matrix of every other item. If we take the supply of any item and divide it by the number needed for a reward recipe, we get the production rate. If the studio failed to do that calculation, then they did not make a mistake, they committed malpractice.Nah, they simply didn't consider it relevant. There's always a ton of things to check, and is easy to forget about one or two. It's something that happens with each episode, and sometimes what they didn't check ends up being way more spectacular. Like "blocking progress bugs" or "map crash" kind of spectacular. Compared to those Sigil is peanuts.

If you've ever worked on a major programming project, you would know that things like this are quite common.

(and as for the difference between being able to query a data, and being able to

understand and interpret

that data, check their explanation for removal of Twilight Arbor Forward/UP path).

I broadly agree except for one thing. The production rate of rewards is not a little thing. If the studio is defined as the center of gravity of an organized system of granular participants, then the most massive participants are preoccupied with the production rate of rewards.

[Hanth.2978]

How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.

[Psientist.6437]

To the studioIf player agency is the goal of economic determination then how does RNG enhance a player's agency? How does one find the most improbable thing without compelling that thing from some one else?

A recipe matrix tied to a material supply matrix where materials are generated from participation and skill in adventures would allow for player agency as comparative advantage. This matrix could contain constrained RNG. The supply of common materials and the chance at rare materials would increase with skill. Each player would experience RNG and general progression as time.

[Psientist.6437]

@Hanth.2978 said:How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.

Yes, everything could be about the price. This forum and every fan curated venue could teem with gold earning guides. Gold could be our narrative soul.

[Psientist.6437]

To the studio

I want to have done enough to sufficiently demonstrate my unwillingness to tear down the studio and therefore faith in, to make asking the following apropos.

May the exchange Ai calculate future value? In the context of economic determination that is an important question.

If we except the demanded patience of putting our important current sea's calculated pegger on the trade floor and the one magnitude change needed in the priced label of goods carried within the important place market, would we get fewer extreme events? Would extreme event qualities remain except that of the extremist? In the context of economic determination that is an important question.

[xenon.3264]

42 pages1600 postnot a single answer.

i abandoned hope , forgot map and moved on. it's a pity cause i loved it .

it's a "don't you have phones?" move .

[Tyson.5160]

@Hanth.2978 said:How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.

I think giving people reliable options to obtain the sigil would be a good way to go, much like everything else in the game.

[xenon.3264]

@Tyson.5160 said:S> @Hanth.2978 said:

How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.

you keep on missing the point:

it's not the price itself but the fact the the gold would go to tp flippers. let it be craftable with icy runestone. 10 gold each. i just crafted my koda warmth i'd be ok with that

[Tyson.5160]

@Psientist.6437 said:To the studio

I want to have done enough to sufficiently demonstrate my unwillingness to tear down the studio and therefore faith in, to make asking the following apropos.

May the exchange Ai calculate future value? In the context of economic determination that is an important question.

If we except the demanded patience of putting our important current sea's calculated pegger on the trade floor and the one magnitude change needed in the priced label of goods carried within the important place market, would we get fewer extreme events? Would extreme event qualities remain except that of the extremist? In the context of economic determination that is an important question.

Sorry, I’m trying to figure out what your trying to say here.

[Bloodstealer.5978]

@Hanth.2978 said:How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.

How to completely jump into a thread and miss the point .. not by a little bit, but by a country mile.Lets all login, use our gold and buy the sigils we all need.... ooh wait, we can't, but, but I got my gold, here take it...

[yann.1946]

@xenon.3264 said:

@Tyson.5160 said:S> @Hanth.2978 said:

How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.

you keep on missing the point:

it's not the price itself but the fact the the gold would go to tp flippers. let it be craftable with icy runestone. 10 gold each. i just crafted my koda warmth i'd be ok with that

Isn't the initial supply that was bought up already back in the economy?The change that flippers would be the ones you're buying from is pretty low.

[Gop.8713]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:aside from most recent implementation of gating content that is being mostly discussed in this thread giving backlash there is at least one "benefit" of controling how many and how fast players are completing the collections: namely, studio controls how much time absolutely minimum it takes before they get hugeload of people complaining again how there is "nothing left in game to do". and if you were paying attention AN is playing with different waysof time-resource-whatever-gating of certain collections in living story at the very least since season 3.

Finishing everything and then waiting to acquire the sigils only also leads to "nothing left in game to do". Getting the sigils isn't content, you farm for them, still nothing new to do. The way the collection is set-up, is also disrupting the flow of the map itself. Play on the new map until you hit the paywall of the sigil, go away of the map to farm the sigil (either leveling or farming in Istan/SW to buy it), go back to the zone, progress the collection again until you hit the next paywall, leave the map again to go farm for the sigil, rinse repeat til the collection is finished. The latest episode has a terrible flow in it, previous map rewards were designed in a way to keep you playing on the new episode maps, farming new currencies, but now the main farming part is away of the zone itself. Not a good way to keep players interested in the new zone at all.

that gave me an idea: what if there is "reliable" way of getting those sigils hidden somewhere on the map itself, but hidden in such a place that no one found it just yet, and silence of AN on this aspect is because of them waiting for us to find it?

imagines one of AN devs reading the thread with popcorn in hand shouting at monitor "if ya scrubs have spent half the time you are arguing in here on looking you'd find it already!"

That would be hilarious if true :)I'd settle for them reading this and stealth patching it in now, then claiming it had been there all along ;)

[Gop.8713]

@Hanth.2978 said:How is this still a problem? especially after having the Halloween festival and the lab farm for the past 3 weeks? Farming the lab has provided hundreds of gold for even the casual player who frequent's the farm once in awhile. Top that off with logging in getting 2g a day, free by the way and people still won't buy the sigil because of the price. Yeah it sucks we missed the 2s train but that's life, but this festival provided simple easy income to buy enough sigils two or three times over. A lot of people say it's not the price it's the fact that there are so few. Blah Blah Blah, I hope anet introduces a way to craft it that cost 10g mats, then we will see people's true colors. It's not the availability, it's the fact people are salty about the price.The fact that pretty much anyone could have earned the gold by now should be a strong indicator to you that price is not the issue. It's weird to me how many ppl have trouble connecting those dots . . .

I'm so confident that price is not the issue that I am willing to double doggy dare anet to introduce a recipe that requires 10g in mats and see if it doesn't in fact fix the problem . . .