Holosmith is overpowered

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@knite.1542 said:Can we list out all of this mobility that Holosmith has? I hear that a lot but all that comes to mind is forge 2, rifle 5, and rocket boots if you happen to run that.

Its the 2s cd on forge 2 giving permanent swiftness and vigor. Though without rocket boots, the mobility is slightly above average at best considering forge is limited by heat. Holo doesnt run rocket boots cause it means sacrificing elixir u/s or photonwall.

[knite.1542]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@knite.1542 said:Can we list out all of this mobility that Holosmith has? I hear that a lot but all that comes to mind is forge 2, rifle 5, and rocket boots if you happen to run that.

Its the 2s cd on forge 2 giving permanent swiftness and vigor. Though without rocket boots, the mobility is slightly above average at best considering forge is limited by heat. Holo doesnt run rocket boots cause it means sacrificing elixir u/s or photonwall.

It really isn't as good as it sounds. The cast time of the skill is 3/4s of a second it gives 3 seconds of swiftness while generating 7% heat per use. I would not quite call it permanent swiftness as you have to keep casting it to keep that swiftness up, and you can only use the skill so many times in a row. By the time you are done casting the skill, you basically don't have swiftness anymore.

edit: I would agree that it was great mobility if the distance of the leap was a bit longer, but the skill is barely much better than just running.

[Dace.8173]

Don't forget that Photon Wall's toolbelt skill gives you Swiftness and it has a fairly low cd. If you do your build right you can have close to permanent Swiftness. Holosmith adds several skills to the mobility that Engineer already has, which is why it is considered more mobile. Scrapper has fewer sources for mobility and really can't compete against Holosmith's mobility.

[Ten.2617]

Holo is too easy to kill...They need burst the enemy fast as possible or disengage to not be killed.Just wait Photon Wall done and burst them. When he become invul, it's the signal that he is near dead. Just keep hitting and finish.If you are a DeadEye, Mirage, Warrior or Guardian, the thing become way easier.

The true is that Holo needs be buffed on some points and nerfed on other points.

[Helluva.3796]

Screw Holo, try killing a Smokescale SB or Condi Confusion Mirage. Even as a new player to WVW, they are untoucable in their defense, ranged offense and melee offense. If you're going to address issues, start there....

And don't even get me started on Spellbreaker.

The game has such brutal unbalance where it is making the game almost undesirable in most content to play. If it wasn't FTP, I wouldn't pay a dime........

[Asum.4960]

@"Noha.3749" said:Holosmiths are basically like Reapers but with stability and better CC, also able to actually make use of holo in groupfights compared to a reaper that gets hit a few times and gets drained of lifeforce.You do not have the same AoE damage capabilities, but you got MUUUCH better CC, mobility and defense overall.

Holosmith is like Reaper, if Reaper Shroud gave invulnerability and if core Necro had stealth, three times the mobility, boon application (esp Stab) and CC. And people actually complain about Reaper now and then, so that should ring some alarms concerning Holo.

Imo Holo, Mirage and Soulbeast, as well as Spellbreaker to some extent, are just god tier atm in PvP.I'm pretty sure those 4 specs in the hands of good players could win a 4v5 against anything but those specs in the hands of equally skilled players easily.

It's pretty much impossible to focus any of them due to invuls/mobility, while they output insane bursts or CC or both.More importantly, it's not particularly fun to be either burst from 100 to 0 in 3 seconds, be chained CC'ed until death, or if you get to fight while outnumbering them to just see "Invulnerable" popping up while they fly away with crazy mobility, more often than not into stealth, just to come back seconds later with another perma CC 100 to 0 burst, decked out with enough Stab to prevent any counter play.

As strong as for example Reapers teamfight capabilities are in terms of AoE damage and corrupts, at least they are also incredibly easy to shut down with CC and simply focus bursting them.Fighting stuff like Holo's or Mirages feels utterly pointless and anti fun on the other hand.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

@Dace.8173 said:More to the point, if Elite specs were the same power level as Core then Free to Play players would have less incentive to get an expansion.So we're in agreement that Elites are P2W and have effectively ruined most of the game. Got it.

Can we start calling this company EAnet now?

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@XenoSpyro.1780 said:

@Dace.8173 said:More to the point, if Elite specs were the same power level as Core then Free to Play players would have less incentive to get an expansion.So we're in agreement that Elites are P2W and have effectively ruined most of the game. Got it.

Can we start calling this company EAnet now?

While I dont disagree that elites have some p2w aspects that go against anets philosophy. I dont think they are anywhere near as bad as EA. You dont have to shell out cash every month to get the next strongest weapon and there are no competitive advantages to paying into loot boxes.

Actually, I believe the game has mostly benefited from elites. They are an excellent and unique way to introduce new profession content. The standard way being simply adding more skills like in gw1. Even that method has power creep and p2w aspects.

The problem here isnt that elites must be more powerful than core classes in order to drive sales, though I imagine that might play a very minor role. The problem is the way elites are setup its incredibly difficult to balance core against them. Essentially, 3 core specialization need to synergize as well as 2 core specializations and the elite. Additionally, the elite has access to every core skill and trait, as well as a new mechanic specific to the elite.

All this means is any buff to core is also a buff to elites, while the elites are their core class and more. This isnt necessarily a bad thing. If we forego the idea that core has any right to be as powerful as elites, then balancing gets much easier. Elite spec overperforming? Nerf the elite specific skills. Class under performing? Buff the core skills and traits. As time progresses the overall number of viable builds increases and build diversity will improve with the addition of more elites. Perhaps down the road Anet might look into making the HoT elites f2p to eliminate any p2w concerns.

[Dace.8173]

@XenoSpyro.1780 said:

@Dace.8173 said:More to the point, if Elite specs were the same power level as Core then Free to Play players would have less incentive to get an expansion.So we're in agreement that Elites are P2W and have effectively ruined most of the game. Got it.

Can we start calling this company EAnet now?

No, that isn't anywhere near what I said. They really aren't pay to win. All things considered, you can do a lot of content on Core. However, when it comes time to do an expansion most players want new power levels. It is fairly common for an MMO to add some kind of new mechanical power level for players who buy the expansion. The most common method is to simply increase the level cap, add a bunch of new abilities at the new level cap and call it a day. Some add new powers. Others add new factions/classes. How effective any given method varies but lets's not act like what ANet did is some kind of big sin. Unless folks are going to argue that it was wrong of Arena Net to add additional professions when they released Nightfall and Factions then there isn't really a high ground on this one (the same applies to this whole pay to win nonsense being as how you had to own two additional expansions to gain access to a total of four additional professions). Considering the level to which people fondly talk about Ritualist and Dervish I imagine the issue is less about adding Elites themselves and more about not adding what people felt should have been added. It's not like there wasn't power creep with the addition of Nightfall and Factions. The bottom line though, people were/are going to want something more from a $50-$60 expansion than just more story to play through.

New content does not come for free and so gripping that people have to buy expansions to get access to new mechanics is somewhat disingenuous. I don't think people would be happy with the alternative, having to pay a subscription, so it really comes down to which method of paying for the content so that the servers get turned on a person prefers. All things considered, I find complaining about power creep and Elites to be silly. If the game was stagnant and nothing changed people wouldn't be happy. If they simply raised the level cap and gave new abilities at higher levels people would complain. If they added more professions people would complain. If they added secondary professions people would complain. Each and every option listed would have added to the power creep and would have been locked behind buying an expansion. Each and every one of those choices would have made game balance more difficult to maintain.

Overall, I find that Elites were a great choice to go with as it allowed development within the current professions in a more manageable way. As @Zex Anthon.8673 points out, if an Elite proves too strong they can modify it without hindering the overall effectiveness of the profession itself or other Elites. All things considered, the Elites being more powerful than Core isn't that big of a deal as it gives people that push to get new content and material. It just needs to be the case that all the Elites are viable and equally playable. Holosmith and Scrapper should be at the same power level. Herald and Renegade should be at the same power level. Etc etc.

Also, let's not act like ANet is even remotely like EA. It's hard to take a person seriously if they are really going to advance that point.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:All this means is any buff to core is also a buff to elites, while the elites are their core class and more. This isnt necessarily a bad thing. If we forego the idea that core has any right to be as powerful as elites, then balancing gets much easier. Elite spec overperforming? Nerf the elite specific skills. Class under performing? Buff the core skills and traits. As time progresses the overall number of viable builds increases and build diversity will improve with the addition of more elites. Perhaps down the road Anet might look into making the HoT elites f2p to eliminate any p2w concerns.

I don't think they will. From a business POV it's best if they have a consistent way that things like Elites are delivered. Making them free down the road is a good way of angering people who bought HoT so they could have access to the Elites. Also once they do that then people would expect gliders to become free. Then they'll want the PoF Elites to become F2P. Then they'll want mounts to become F2P. It isn't really a good idea to anger your paying customers to appease your non-paying customers. It's just a series of headaches that they probably don't want.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:All this means is any buff to core is also a buff to elites, while the elites are their core class and more. This isnt necessarily a bad thing. If we forego the idea that core has any right to be as powerful as elites, then balancing gets much easier. Elite spec overperforming? Nerf the elite specific skills. Class under performing? Buff the core skills and traits. As time progresses the overall number of viable builds increases and build diversity will improve with the addition of more elites. Perhaps down the road Anet might look into making the HoT elites f2p to eliminate any p2w concerns.

I don't think they will. From a business POV it's best if they have a consistent way that things like Elites are delivered. Making them free down the road is a good way of angering people who bought HoT so they could have access to the Elites. Also once they do that then people would expect gliders to become free. Then they'll want the PoF Elites to become F2P. Then they'll want mounts to become F2P. It isn't really a good idea to anger your paying customers to appease your non-paying customers. It's just a series of headaches that they probably don't want.

It may anger some people, but you can look at the core game as an example. I bought the core game, and they made it f2p. By that time there was already expansion content. Look a couple years down the road, when multiple expansions have released. I think its reasonable to release a small portion of HoT to f2p if it solves the p2w issue and brings in a larger more sustainable playerbase. They dont have to release all elites either. Maybe f2p players get a token to exchange for a HoT elite of their choice. If they want gliders, Story, or newer/more elites then they should buy the expansions. Also, once f2p player have a taste of elites and learn what they can do, then they are more likely to buy an expansion.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

Back on topic. Im ok with nerfs to holosmith if it came with buffs/reworks to core to compensate. And, of course, any changes to holosmith need to be balanced against its heat mechanic.

Maybe then it will "play more like an engineer" and people will stop complaining about the faceroll nature of holo.

As I suggested before, rework kits and put them on the toolbelt. That way holo could have access to a kit without using up slots that would otherwise be used for elixirs or exceeds. Then we can talk about a PF nerf.

[whoknocks.4935]

Holosmith is overtuned and nobody can deny that, it lost every single element of core engineer and scrapper, lost the high complexity of the Engineer profession with hard rotations and many many skills and kits to use with brain.It's so easy to play and so easy to get immediately reward with it even for a super new player, engi was used to run 2-3 kits to be effective, and you had to be fast and made the right choices or else die.Now you just need to press F5 and you are good to go.

[coro.3176]

IMO, Holo should keep its damage and CC (though, with reduced range on Shockwave cause that is ridiculous). However, it should be a glass cannon. It should feel risky to play and should be easily punished by counterattack. At present, that's pretty hard to do due to passive sustain and frequent defensive cooldowns. Holo gets to spend basically all of their traits and utility skills on defense because they get enough offense "for free" from the elite spec. Rather than nerf those defensive options (eg. elixir S), I'd rather make Holo itself more glassy by cutting the sustain and stab.

• Cut the healing on Heat Therapy (maybe only when used with Thermal Release Valve)

• Cut the stability on Eclipse (only have it apply on the first pulse)

• If you want sustain, you should have to pay for it with Healing Power stats

• If you want stability, you should have to pay for it by running Elixir B or Thumper Turret

[Dace.8173]

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:All this means is any buff to core is also a buff to elites, while the elites are their core class and more. This isnt necessarily a bad thing. If we forego the idea that core has any right to be as powerful as elites, then balancing gets much easier. Elite spec overperforming? Nerf the elite specific skills. Class under performing? Buff the core skills and traits. As time progresses the overall number of viable builds increases and build diversity will improve with the addition of more elites. Perhaps down the road Anet might look into making the HoT elites f2p to eliminate any p2w concerns.

I don't think they will. From a business POV it's best if they have a consistent way that things like Elites are delivered. Making them free down the road is a good way of angering people who bought HoT so they could have access to the Elites. Also once they do that then people would expect gliders to become free. Then they'll want the PoF Elites to become F2P. Then they'll want mounts to become F2P. It isn't really a good idea to anger your paying customers to appease your non-paying customers. It's just a series of headaches that they probably don't want.

It may anger some people, but you can look at the core game as an example. I bought the core game, and they made it f2p. By that time there was already expansion content. Look a couple years down the road, when multiple expansions have released. I think its reasonable to release a small portion of HoT to f2p if it solves the p2w issue and brings in a larger more sustainable playerbase. They dont have to release all elites either. Maybe f2p players get a token to exchange for a HoT elite of their choice. If they want gliders, Story, or newer/more elites then they should buy the expansions. Also, once f2p player have a taste of elites and learn what they can do, then they are more likely to buy an expansion.

The core game going free is a trick you can only pull once. Doing the same for HoT and PoF content establishes a pattern that would decrease sales. Sure some might buy product with a taste of Elites but once there is a pattern of paid material going free it's hard to get those very same people to buy down the road. Flipside, paying customers might have finally accepted the core game going free after they paid but they become very upset if everything they've paid for becomes free. It would be one thing if ANet had established it early on, that when you buy an expansion now you are paying for "early access" to Elites and gliders people would likely be ok. But doing it a second time without warning comes off as a giant bait and switch that would undermine faith in buying future expansions. I also don't think there will be that many Elites down the road. I think this game has about 2 more expansions before it moves on to a Guild Wars 3.

@Zex Anthon.8673 said:Back on topic. Im ok with nerfs to holosmith if it came with buffs/reworks to core to compensate. And, of course, any changes to holosmith need to be balanced against its heat mechanic.

Maybe then it will "play more like an engineer" and people will stop complaining about the faceroll nature of holo.

As I suggested before, rework kits and put them on the toolbelt. That way holo could have access to a kit without using up slots that would otherwise be used for elixirs or exceeds. Then we can talk about a PF nerf.

I'd only be ok with nerfs to Holosmith if other professions were nerfed as well. Nerfing Holosmith makes Engineer's only meta build non-meta and thus Engineer as a profession becomes less competitive in competitive play. I'm all for all the Elites being brought inline with each other. I'm against select Elites taking a hit. Though I do not think nerfs would stop people from complaining that Holosmith doesn't play like an Enginner. I think that feeling comes from how Holosmith is disigned and less about its overall power level. I personally think Holosmith plays like an Engineer. Photon Forge is an mechnical creation that relies on the games lose "science" to work and all its abilities follow suit.

Though I still think that if you are going to move kits to tool belt that it really should only be the F5 slot and that they would be easier to balance and granted more power if Holosmith was not granted access. But that's another discussion for another thread, I suppose.

@whoknocks.4935 said:Holosmith is overtuned and nobody can deny that, it lost every single element of core engineer and scrapper, lost the high complexity of the Engineer profession with hard rotations and many many skills and kits to use with brain.It's so easy to play and so easy to get immediately reward with it even for a super new player, engi was used to run 2-3 kits to be effective, and you had to be fast and made the right choices or else die.Now you just need to press F5 and you are good to go.

This isn't a bad thing. Having an easier to access and play Holosmith is a good thing as it introduces people to Engineer and encourages them to explore the profession. Granted, not everyone will explore Engineer after playing Holosmith but Holosmith makes entry into Engineer easier for the people who were previously intimidated by Core Engineer and Scrapper. I have doubts that the current resurgence of Scrapper would have happened if Holosmith was as difficult and hard as people seem to want. Some of those folks who are making Scrapper more popular, right now, are people who tried out Holosmith and now want to try out Scrapper.

Two-thirds of the profession plays like normal Engineer. If they had made Core Engineer easier to play then the complaint that Holosmith makes Engineer easier are valid. But complaining that Holosmith is brainless and easy really comes off as Engineer players being elitist and gatekeepers. There is nothing wrong with an aspect that makes Engineer easier as it draws people into the profession. Otherwise, the Engineer playerbase itself would become stagnant. The benefit of Elites is that it allows for the ability to change the playstyle of a profession, making it easier to play or harder to play (Weaver made Elementalist harder for example), taking the profession in new directions etc etc. The demand that it needs to play like Core Engineer misses the stated design goal of Elites.

Also, it didn't lose every single element of core Engineer. Scrapper doesn't count as the two were never meant to interact.

@"coro.3176" said:IMO, Holo should keep its damage and CC (though, with reduced range on Shockwave cause that is ridiculous). However, it should be a glass cannon. It should feel risky to play and should be easily punished by counterattack. At present, that's pretty hard to do due to passive sustain and frequent defensive cooldowns. Holo gets to spend basically all of their traits and utility skills on defense because they get enough offense "for free" from the elite spec. Rather than nerf those defensive options (eg. elixir S), I'd rather make Holo itself more glassy by cutting the sustain and stab.

• Cut the healing on Heat Therapy (maybe only when used with Thermal Release Valve)

• Cut the stability on Eclipse (only have it apply on the first pulse)

• If you want sustain, you should have to pay for it with Healing Power stats

• If you want stability, you should have to pay for it by running Elixir B or Thumper Turret

Sadly, the passive sustain is a requirement in this meta. Remove its sustain and it stops being meta and becomes an easy target from everything else. This is one of the problems that Elementalist faces, it has sustain but it lacks power. In this meta both are required and removing one swiftly removes you from being viable and competitive.

[stone cold.8609]

From my perspective, holosmith isn't overpowered. It's actually powered appropriately compared to top specs from other professions. The real issue is that both core and scrapper are underpowered. I'd suggest buffing both core and scrapper to match holosmith's performance, instead of calling for nerfs to the Engineer's strongest spec.

[Dace.8173]

@stone cold.8609 said:From my perspective, holosmith isn't overpowered. It's actually powered appropriately compared to top specs from other professions. The real issue is that both core and scrapper are underpowered. I'd suggest buffing both core and scrapper to match holosmith's performance, instead of calling for nerfs to the Engineer's strongest spec.

I think the power level could afford to drop some while Scrapper and many other Elites could afford a power boost. You really can't buff Core too much as that would prove counterproductive in terms of pulling Holosmith and Scrapper in line. Any buff to Core transfers to the Elites. Make Core stronger and you automatically make the Elites stronger.

[Curennos.9307]

I keep seeing people say that buffing core in any way also means it's a change to elite specs because they can use 2 core traitlines as well, but...And perhaps I'm misreading this, but why aren't they instead trying to figure out what core traitlines the meta elite specs are using - and why - and seeing how the traitlines that few meta/close to meta specs are using and see how those can be adjusted?

I mean, alchemy seems to have been pretty consistent since...nearly ever? Obviously suggesting change/buffs to alchemy wouldn't be the best of ideas - unless it specifically involved something that only core could use, or that holo didn't benefit as much from.

There are loads of other core traitlines too that people seem to forget about. And heck, maybe some meta core traitlines DO need some buffs in certain areas, but nerfs in others, which would improve the traitline's functionality but decrease the strength of certain elite specs that used it. Surely there's a methodical way to go about analyzing this.

[whoknocks.4935]

@"Dace.8173" said:

I don't agree with weaver being harder to play than core or tempest.Maybe for a new player jumping into weaver for the first time he gets tricked by the skill#3 merged based on previous attunement, but once you get the rhythm on it you can maintain a pretty solid "rotation" and the skill to use will be automatic.Every single pof spec is easy mode compared to the previous professions, only except renegade probably which doesn't have the powercreep of the other pof specs and so it's not viable in pvp or wvw, dunno about pve.The problem with holo is not only easy to play, but how rewarding it is to play it even for a new player.Do you think is fair having a fight between a pro core engi player and a 2 days playing holo and the holo wins every fight? 90% is build/spec 10% your skill level.Seriously in less than a week playing holo you can already reach plat if you never did before.

[Zex Anthon.8673]

@Curennos.9307 said:I keep seeing people say that buffing core in any way also means it's a change to elite specs because they can use 2 core traitlines as well, but...And perhaps I'm misreading this, but why aren't they instead trying to figure out what core traitlines the meta elite specs are using - and why - and seeing how the traitlines that few meta/close to meta specs are using and see how those can be adjusted?

I mean, alchemy seems to have been pretty consistent since...nearly ever? Obviously suggesting change/buffs to alchemy wouldn't be the best of ideas - unless it specifically involved something that only core could use, or that holo didn't benefit as much from.

There are loads of other core traitlines too that people seem to forget about. And heck, maybe some meta core traitlines DO need some buffs in certain areas, but nerfs in others, which would improve the traitline's functionality but decrease the strength of certain elite specs that used it. Surely there's a methodical way to go about analyzing this.

The problem is build strength is derived from the synergies between traits, skills, and perks. A meta core build will rely on these synergies to be competitive. Now, unless the synergy requires 3 core traitlines, then elite specs can take advantage of the same synergies.

For example, if the synergy between explosives and firearms was buffed, and the synergy between holo+tools/elixirs were nerfed. Then holo will start using firearms and explosives, essentially becoming a stronger version of the core build.

[Noha.3749]

isnt soulbeast considered "more" op than holosmith these days? and condimirage?

Sounds like OP is probably playing something that has an ez time vs the others but struggle vs holo, and therfore "holo op"

[Laila Lightness.8742]

@Dace.8173 said:

@stone cold.8609 said:From my perspective, holosmith isn't overpowered. It's actually powered appropriately compared to top specs from other professions. The real issue is that both core and scrapper are underpowered. I'd suggest buffing both core and scrapper to match holosmith's performance, instead of calling for nerfs to the Engineer's strongest spec.

I think the power level could afford to drop some while Scrapper and many other Elites could afford a power boost. You really can't buff Core too much as that would prove counterproductive in terms of pulling Holosmith and Scrapper in line. Any buff to Core transfers to the Elites. Make Core stronger and you automatically make the Elites stronger.

Scrappers issue is that its not having any real mechanic and lack of a role others dont do better , take a look holo its a dmger. Scrapper is a tanky bruiser but it dont have any part wich not core and holo can do better there lies the issue.

[Dace.8173]

@Curennos.9307 said:I keep seeing people say that buffing core in any way also means it's a change to elite specs because they can use 2 core traitlines as well, but...And perhaps I'm misreading this, but why aren't they instead trying to figure out what core traitlines the meta elite specs are using - and why - and seeing how the traitlines that few meta/close to meta specs are using and see how those can be adjusted?

I mean, alchemy seems to have been pretty consistent since...nearly ever? Obviously suggesting change/buffs to alchemy wouldn't be the best of ideas - unless it specifically involved something that only core could use, or that holo didn't benefit as much from.

There are loads of other core traitlines too that people seem to forget about. And heck, maybe some meta core traitlines DO need some buffs in certain areas, but nerfs in others, which would improve the traitline's functionality but decrease the strength of certain elite specs that used it. Surely there's a methodical way to go about analyzing this.

Meta changes. Additionally, most meta Elites are not all relying on the same set of trait lines to be meta. Thus you can't really target specific trait lines and make them less powerful for just the Elite. Meta is built upon synergy between traits. So anytime you increase trait synergy for Core you do the same for Elites. The only way to buff Core without also buffing an Elite would be to do the buffs in such a way that it requires three standard trait lines. However, that's just messy and is just as likely to make Core worse as it is to make Core better but not the Elite. It isn't worth the time to untangle.

Elites are intimately tied to their Core. This is why Elites for professions with weak Cores have to work harder to be meta than Elites built on stronger Core from a profession.

It would be a bigger headache and in the long run you'd like see few players happy with the results.

@whoknocks.4935 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

I don't agree with weaver being harder to play than core or tempest.Maybe for a new player jumping into weaver for the first time he gets tricked by the skill#3 merged based on previous attunement, but once you get the rhythm on it you can maintain a pretty solid "rotation" and the skill to use will be automatic.Every single pof spec is easy mode compared to the previous professions, only except renegade probably which doesn't have the powercreep of the other pof specs and so it's not viable in pvp or wvw, dunno about pve.The problem with holo is not only easy to play, but how rewarding it is to play it even for a new player.Do you think is fair having a fight between a pro core engi player and a 2 days playing holo and the holo wins every fight? 90% is build/spec 10% your skill level.Seriously in less than a week playing holo you can already reach plat if you never did before.

A new player really can't step into Weaver and be good at it in the same way that a new player can step into Holosmith and be good at it. Weaver requires the player to be able to at least play Elementalist at a basic level in order to be good. Weaver is less forgiving as well. People call Holosmith easy because anyone can pick up Holosmith and be good with it. They don't need to be good at Engineer to be good with Holosmith. The same is not true of Weaver. If you don't get Elementalist you aren't going to get Weaver and that makes Weaver harder.

Also, what I think is fair is immaterial and irrelevant. Fairness has no true bearing on whether or not something is easy to play, OP, or balanced. Your comparison is also bad. Elites are stronger than Cores, period. If one were to really judge fairness (and I'm not inclined to do so because I think fairness in a discussion like this is just a silly distraction from constructive conversation) you would need to compare Holosmith to its peers, other Elites. To be honest, I find arguments based on fairness and easy mode to just be elitism, so I tend to not take them too seriously. I place a higher premium on whether people are having fun.

I also don't have much in the way of sympathy for a "pro" player that gets beat by someone who is has only been playing Holosmith for 2 days. Holosmith is not so strong that it beats experience. A "pro" player should be exploiting Holosmith's holes and the players lack of familiarity with how Engineer plays overall.

@Laila Lightness.8742 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@"stone cold.8609" said:From my perspective, holosmith isn't overpowered. It's actually powered appropriately compared to top specs from other professions. The real issue is that both core and scrapper are underpowered. I'd suggest buffing both core and scrapper to match holosmith's performance, instead of calling for nerfs to the Engineer's strongest spec.

I think the power level could afford to drop some while Scrapper and many other Elites could afford a power boost. You really can't buff Core too much as that would prove counterproductive in terms of pulling Holosmith and Scrapper in line. Any buff to Core transfers to the Elites. Make Core stronger and you automatically make the Elites stronger.

Scrappers issue is that its not having any real mechanic and lack of a role others dont do better , take a look holo its a dmger. Scrapper is a tanky bruiser but it dont have any part wich not core and holo can do better there lies the issue.

The value of Scrapper needing a "real" mechanic is debatable. It's seeing a resurgence so people are making it work. I also don't put much stock into "roles others don't do better" as I don't see game balance as a zero-sum game. It is fine if more than one profession is capable of doing the same thing just as good. Having to have a role that others don't do better places an artificial demand on faction-based mechanics and it tends to exclude builds, professions, and Elites in this Highlander-esque Thunderdome.

If Scrapper were brought to the same level of power as Holosmith then whether or not it does the same thing is unimportant. Power levels should be equal. People should be left to decide what they want to do with it once they are. With nine professions and eighteen Elites, there is going to be overlap on what can be done.

[witcher.3197]

It is OP AF but you'll never convince a profession forum about their class being anything but the worst thing ever that needs 4342684234 buffs, so why bother.

[knite.1542]

Nevermind this comment