Fighting mirage is dropping the keyboard and looking at the UI

[Revolution.5409]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...

still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP

.

There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

[mortrialus.3062]

@ReaverKane.7598 said:

@Fortus.6175 said:I had a shower thought, fighting mirage is all about looking at the UI constantly to see if you have confusion and torment. If you dont have an easily accessible condi clear that requires one click (unlike changing attunement/kit/weapon slot and then casting an ability) , or for you to not move (like setting up water field and then using another skill like leap) then the only other thing you can really do is take your hands off your keyboard and constantly be looking at your UI more than the opponent.

I thought GW2 wanted us to move away from UI combat, and overall I dont think it is fun to

not do anything

as the best possible answer.

Anyways, soulbeasts too strong atm.

You're not wrong, there was a regression in the way that confusion works. It was changed years ago to work more of a dot and not exclusively as something that promotes inaction, then they changed it back to that. I mean honestly, at this point i stopped caring, stopped PvPing altogether a year ago, and i stopped expecting the balance team to have a sense of direction.They do seem to have found one recently, or at least they claim to have one, but having seen no plans or guidelines published, i can't say they'll be successful.There's little to no calls for feedback, and even if they had the best track record in the world, which they don't, not even close, there's somewhat of a lack of humility in not allowing the thousands (millions according to them) of minds that engage the game on a daily basis to help and feedback into their plans.

@mortrialus.3062 said:

@SPESHAL.9106 said:This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP.

First, it's pretty embarrassing the state of OP mesmers were at the beginning of the year. I don't know how that left internal testing, but as we've seen with sigil updates and other patch things that require hotfixes, they don't seem to do a lot of internal testing or theorize about obvious problems that get discovered immediately by the playerbase.

The kid gloves approach they take with Mesmers versus other professions is what's really head-scratching. Look how long it took them to nerf portal when it was the most game changing utility and they gave it to ONLY Mesmers...this is on top of being the profession with the most AI, high mobility, stealth, biggest power burst, biggest condi burst, most scaling defenses, most interrupts, lowest cooldown, shortest cast times, and virtually no resources to manage like every other profession (initiative, life force, adrenaline, energy, etc).

No matter what they kid glove nerf, there's always a bunch of other builds just as powerful to use with mesmers because they literally are given the opportunity to build for anything. At one time, they were even unkillable bunkers, so this isn't just a one period isolated time of mesmers being broken.

Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.

Honestly, you're 100% right. Portals were always a strong tactical tool, and that was a great play maker or zoning tool. Nerfing that really sends a message that the game is going to be less and less about tactics and team play. I mean the guy that has been in charge of PvP does seem to think that a ranked team queue is less competitive, so no wonder cooperation is being downplayed. (not that portal isn't/wasn't also a great individual tool)

Mhm. if I was going to nerf anything about mesmers right now, it would be core stuff and their synergy with Mirage and mirage's damage output and 1v1 potential. . Stuff like this:

Deceptive Evasion:Clones Spawned by Deceptive Evasion no longer spawn Automatically doing their Ambush attack with Infinite Horizon.It's a fun trait synergy, but I think it's too much with Infinite Horizon. Infinite Horizon rewards spawning and maintaining three clones at once, and with all the AoE and cleave spilling around is actually somewhat difficult. But the investment in having and maintaining clones is undercut when a dodge roll doesn't just spawn a clone, but also automatically gives you the damage is putting too much into the value of one dodge even for Mirage. Deceptive Evasion is fine, but they shouldn't ambush until the Mirage Cloak after they spawn.

Cry of Pain:I think a lot of people really missed how much this trait impacted Mesmer in PvP. Just a refresher, it used to be Illusionary Retribution, which had all shatter skills apply confusion on shatter. The end result is that a 3 Clone Mind Wrack or Distraction would both apply 4 stacks of confusion, and a three clone Cry of Frustration would apply 8 stacks of confusion. However, during the Phantasm rework last February they switched it so that it now gives Cry of Frustration 2 additional stacks of confusion, front loading ALL of the Mesmer's potential Confusion output into just one shatter. Now Cry of Frustration on it's own if it lands is 12 stacks of confusion just right there and that doesn't even count Blinding Disipation+Ineptitude. This made Illusions condi mirage FAR burstier than it had been previously.

While Illusions has fallen out of the meta in favor of Chaos, I do think this trait might be better off being reverted back to 1 additional confusion stack per shatter, giving mesmer more value for all their shatters long term rather than just Cry of Frustration.

I feel like mesmers of all varieties should focus less on 1v1ing and immense condi pressure (Though condi pressure should still be a thing) and more by outplaying enemies with unique one of a kind utility. Portal nerf was the exact opposite direction mesmer should have gone.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@mortrialus.3062 said:Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.eeexcept portal isn't usable halfway across the map by the whole team.

[Aza.2105]

@Solori.6025 said:...Are we not supposed to be looking at the UI anyway?Like...is ignoring UI a legitimate thing people do?

Its why the game was designed the way it was. Ever wonder why the game doesn't have cast bars? Well, Anet specifically stated that they weren't going to add them. Because they wanted their players to spend more time playing the game than starring at cast bars and UI. Its also why the game is suppose to be animation dependent when it comes to battles. Like....warriors hundred blades. In gw1, you see a cast bar of the warrior about to use hundred blades right? In gw2 you see the warrior doing its long clearly telegraphed animation of hundred blades.

Its why mirage is so busted. Not only because you have to really stare at your conditions. But also because it absolutely clutters the screen with clones, special effects and it can cause you to drop target. Its as anti gw2 as you can get.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...

still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP

.

There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

That didn't stop top players rolling boonbeast and holosmiths back before the auto S nerf.

[gateless gate.8406]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If you balance any game for the top 50 players, you can expect the playerbase to gradually decline to just those 50 players.

[Aza.2105]

@"Azure The Heartless.3261" said:

Again, not that I think this is the issue. I'd be fine with micromanaging condis if my kittening stuns or interrupts had to make the mirage think instead of "oh, theres a weird effect on me, guess I'll just dodge again"

Micromanaging conditions in gw2 will never be ok since the game wasn't made to do it. GW1 was, but if you compare the two, gw1 was much slower pace. GW2 on the other hand, if you look down at your UI then in the next second you can be dead. That is primarily the problem with the game currently, its like you are playing on turbo speed mode.

You have to:

• Find the right mesmer among its half dozen clones.
• Then you have to manually click the mesmer, since tab targeting through them is really bad.
• Then you have to stop looking at the screen and look to see if you have torment or confusion.
• You then stop moving or using skills for a few seconds.

Just those four steps take well over 5 seconds or so. But you can die in a fraction of a second. I said it once and I will say it again. Anet really needs to limit the amount of clones, phantasms or whatever you would like to call them. Before the rework I never had a problem with mesmer duplicates. But now, its just a bunch of nasty visual clutter. I can understand why Mirage is considered top tier. With their toolkit and clone clutter, they aren't really fighting anyone. Its a one sided fight for the most part. Remove mirage from the game and stealth, then gw2 would be in a alright spot.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:Whining about portal is like whining about a thief shadow step juking you into getting decapped. Portal should be unnerfed immediately.eeexcept portal isn't usable halfway across the map by the whole team.

And thieves has several times the sustained speed of mesmer even if the mesmer is using portal, blink, jaunt and Mirage thrust. The asymmetry and uniqueness is fine as long as the game is designed to account for that. Whining about how Portal was one of the strongest utilities in the game especially in team play is like whining that Infiltrator's Arrow is the strongest weapon 5 skill and swings more games than any other weapon 5 skill.

[Solori.6025]

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If you balance any game for the top 50 players, you can expect the playerbase to gradually decline to just those 50 players.

.....But hasn't spvp already seen a sharp decline of players even trying to balance around casuals?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...

still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP

.

There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

Or... Mesmer just isn't as OP as people insist. Especially compared to Soulbeast and Holosmith pre-Elixir S nerf. That's just as plausible as, if not more so than, the other possibilities.

@gateless gate.8406 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If you balance any game for the top 50 players, you can expect the playerbase to gradually decline to just those 50 players.

Never said to balance for the top 50. Simply responded to the popular gripe that Mesmer is ridiculously OP. If that were true it wouldn't require much skill to play and succeed, and naturally would be more represented in the higher tiers, and indeed at all levels.

Maybe someone can provide this, as I don't know where to find it: how much do Mesmers represent the mid and lower tiers? If it's no more than average, where is the evidence that mesmer is in desperate need of balancing--at any level of competiton?

Or are we back to people just hating on that which they don't understand or find annoying? Do we have any more objective measure of class over/under performance than ranked outcomes?

[gateless gate.8406]

@Solori.6025 said:.....But hasn't spvp already seen a sharp decline of players even trying to balance around casuals?

How has it been balanced around casuals? CC is constant, damage is lethal in 1-3 seconds, clone spam class that doesn't telegraph attacks is still clone spam class that doesn't telegraph attacks, and so on. GW2 pvp isn't very beginner friendly at all, in my opinion.

[gateless gate.8406]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Never said to balance for the top 50. Simply responded to the popular gripe that Mesmer is ridiculously OP. If that were true it wouldn't require much skill to play and succeed, and naturally would be more represented in the higher tiers, and indeed at all levels.

Maybe someone can provide this, as I don't know where to find it: how much do Mesmers represent the mid and lower tiers? If it's no more than average, where is the evidence that mesmer is in desperate need of balancing--at any level of competiton?

Or are we back to people just hating on that which they don't understand or find annoying? Do we have any more objective measure of class over/under performance than ranked outcomes?

People don't just hate mirage for its raw damage numbers or something like that (though laying on huge stacks of confusion obviously hits quite hard). It's the endless clones, the detargeting, the stealth, the teleports. It all adds up to an extremely obnoxious class.

[Revolution.5409]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...

still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP

.

There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

Or...

Mesmer just isn't as OP as people insist.

Especially compared to Soulbeast and Holosmith pre-Elixir S nerf. That's just as plausible as, if not more so than, the other possibilities.

no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build and that can apply 10+ stack of confusion and torment at low intervals say SB and Holo are OP and mirage no seems only a comment to justify a class that is still above all specializations except (perhaps) SB in a 1vs1 duel.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@mortrialus.3062 said:And thieves has several times the sustained speed of mesmer even if the mesmer is using portal, blink, jaunt and Mirage thrust. The asymmetry and uniqueness is fine as long as the game is designed to account for that. Whining about how Portal was one of the strongest utilities in the game especially in team play is like whining that Infiltrator's Arrow is the strongest weapon 5 skill and swings more games than any other weapon 5 skill.

you still don't get it lol, but that's alright.

[Solori.6025]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@Revolution.5409 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@"SPESHAL.9106" said:This has been going on for over a year. They tried ONE midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried ANOTHER midseason nerf...not enough last year. They tried aTHIRD midseason nerf...not enough. They did a few balance patches since then to add more nerfs...

still not enough as Mesmers are far above most other professions in polls of the most OP

.

There are polls, like this one started by a mesmer hater, which reflect a tired bias (so many votes, so few actual reasons):

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63182/most-op-class-dec-14-2018/p1

and then there is reality: Mesmers are underrepresented in the leaderboards.

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/63990/mesmer-is-trash-and-it-needs-buffs#latest

But OP, nerf moar, right?

If there are few mesmer in top50 this does not mean mirage is not OP.someone can say the good mesmer have left the game or play less to classify in high positions or have decided to play a season with a different class because bored, you have to see everything and not just top50 or top250, mesmer is OP and anet is not really balancing the class.

Or...

Mesmer just isn't as OP as people insist.

Especially compared to Soulbeast and Holosmith pre-Elixir S nerf. That's just as plausible as, if not more so than, the other possibilities.

no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build and that can apply 10+ stack of confusion and torment at low intervals say SB and Holo are OP and mirage no seems only a comment to justify a class that is still above all specializations except (perhaps) SB in a 1vs1 duel.

......you do realize every class has instant skills.Aside from teleports. ( and obvious condition whinning)Both holo and SB bring everything you listed. And can be twice as effective.

[Revolution.5409]

@"Solori.6025" said:

......you do realize every class has instant skills.Aside from teleports. ( and obvious condition whinning)Both holo and SB bring everything you listed. And can be twice as effective.

Are you comparing the access to mesmer stelth with a rng-based feather? Ranger to get "safe" access to invisibility will have to replace one of his pet with smokescale and use LB, so build will be less tanky not being able to use Unflinching Fortitude or Spiritual Reprieve and lose all aoe damage (if you decide to replace axe).Boonbeast can never kill an opponent in two seconds with a combination of keys, to do this must change Nature Magic and replace it with Beast Mastery or Marksman, totally changing build and amulet.SB mechanic's F3 abilities have a very long casting and SB's pet exchange mechanic is interruptible by killing the pet, but it can be twice as effective lol XD

it's true, ranger can have all these things but not at the same time. Mirage loses nothing to use all these mechanics in a single build.

[mortrialus.3062]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:And thieves has several times the sustained speed of mesmer even if the mesmer is using portal, blink, jaunt and Mirage thrust. The asymmetry and uniqueness is fine as long as the game is designed to account for that. Whining about how Portal was one of the strongest utilities in the game especially in team play is like whining that Infiltrator's Arrow is the strongest weapon 5 skill and swings more games than any other weapon 5 skill.

you still don't get it lol, but that's alright.

And you don't get that I think mesmers should primarily contribute to conquest games with unique one of a kind utility like they have for six years until portal was smiters booned.

[Solori.6025]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@"Solori.6025" said:

......you do realize every class has instant skills.Aside from teleports. ( and obvious condition whinning)Both holo and SB bring everything you listed. And can be twice as effective.

Are you comparing the access to mesmer stelth with a rng-based feather? Ranger to get "safe" access to invisibility will have to replace one of his pet with smokescale and use LB, so build will be less tanky not being able to use Unflinching Fortitude or Spiritual Reprieve and lose all aoe damage (if you decide to replace axe).Boonbeast can never kill an opponent in two seconds with a combination of keys, to do this must change Nature Magic and replace it with Beast Mastery or Marksman, totally changing build and amulet.SB mechanic's F3 abilities have a very long casting and SB's pet exchange mechanic is interruptible by killing the pet, but it can be twice as effective lol XD

it's true, ranger can have all these things but not at the same time. Mirage loses nothing to use all these mechanics in a single build.

Oh no.We aren't comparing at all, that's what you are doing.We are listing your inaccuracies from what you typed.I didn't bring up any specific buildsAnything more than what was typed that you are reading in to is entirely on You and vice-versa for me as well.

No boonbeast can not kill anyone in 2 seconds..In fact- Most builds when put up against competent players wont kill something in literally 2 seconds.But that is irrelevent to the original reply, and again, is a construct of you trying to reach for something else to discuss.Ranger and Holo do in fact have access to stealth, and invulns. For holo especially, those things are all in one build.For Ranger it is more of a random chance when using the meta build listed herehttps://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/But it still does in fact have access- please don't pretend it doesn't as that is a complete lieBoth (or all ) classes have access to instant skills

If you wan't to compare how builds vs builds work, be my guest.Listing things that other classes have access to as if mesmer is the only class to have access to them, does nothing but make the entire argument you presented seem hyperbolic, and deeply rooted in class hate. If that is how you wanted your post to be, then do not be surprised that people take apart your post and pick out the major inaccuracies within it.

Edit:I noticed Holo was absent from your reply...Why is that?

Edit 2: You are also right that ranger would have to give up something for complete immunity like Elixer S or Distortion.

[Revolution.5409]

@"Solori.6025" said:

Oh no.We aren't comparing at all, that's what you are doing.We are listing your inaccuracies from what you typed.I didn't bring up any specific buildsAnything more than what was typed that you are reading in to is entirely on You and vice-versa for me as well.

No boonbeast can not kill anyone in 2 seconds..In fact- Most builds when put up against competent players wont kill something in literally 2 seconds.But that is irrelevent to the original reply, and again, is a construct of you trying to reach for something else to discuss.Ranger and Holo do in fact have access to stealth, and invulns. For holo especially, those things are all in one build.For Ranger it is more of a random chance when using the meta build listed herehttps://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/But it still does in fact have access- please don't pretend it doesn't as that is a complete lieBoth (or all ) classes have access to instant skills

If you wan't to compare how builds vs builds work, be my guest.Listing things that other classes have access to as if mesmer is the only class to have access to them, does nothing but make the entire argument you presented seem hyperbolic, and deeply rooted in class hate. If that is how you wanted your post to be, then do not be surprised that people take apart your post and pick out the major inaccuracies within it.

Edit:I noticed Holo was absent from your reply...Why is that?

Edit 2: You are also right that ranger would have to give up something for complete immunity like Elixer S or Distortion.

You do not need to show a specific build if the post is a discussion of what it means to play against a Condi Mirage.My answer was for a user who said SB / Holo are more OP of Mirage, also saying that they are twice as effective is a way to compare the classes.I never said the opposite about the instant skills, I said "the ranger class mechanic has skill with a long casting" which is very different.Give a different meaning to my words, I said Mirage has all those features in a single build unlike other classes, and I explained why SB will never have a single, effective build to cover multiple roles like Mirage and I made some examplesI try to be objective and argue why Mirage can not be considered inferior to other specializations and why I think this, and this does not mean that i hate the class.

[Bossun.2046]

Power mesmer is alright to go against. You know their rotation and what their heavy hitting skills are. Can avoid or block easily if you pay attention. Condi axe mirage on the other hand is the complete opposite. With the clones, ports stealth and distortion the best thing one can hope is that it's their first time playing mesmer

[Solori.6025]

@Revolution.5409 said:

@"Solori.6025" said:

Oh no.We aren't comparing at all, that's what you are doing.We are listing your inaccuracies from what you typed.I didn't bring up any specific buildsAnything more than what was typed that you are reading in to is entirely on

You

and vice-versa for me as well.

No boonbeast can not kill anyone in 2 seconds..In fact- Most builds when put up against competent players wont kill something in literally 2 seconds.But that is irrelevent to the original reply, and again, is a construct of you trying to reach for something else to discuss.Ranger and Holo do in fact have access to stealth, and invulns. For holo especially, those things are all in one build.For Ranger it is more of a random chance when using the meta build listed here

https://www.godsofpvp.net/builds/ranger/

But it still

does

in fact have access- please don't pretend it doesn't as that is a complete lieBoth (or all ) classes have access to instant skills

If you wan't to compare how builds vs builds work, be my guest.Listing things that other classes have access to

as if

mesmer is the

only

class to have access to them, does nothing but make the entire argument you presented seem hyperbolic, and deeply rooted in class hate. If that is how you wanted your post to be, then do not be surprised that people take apart your post and pick out the major inaccuracies within it.

Edit:I noticed Holo was absent from your reply...Why is that?

Edit 2: You are also right that ranger would have to give up something for complete immunity like Elixer S or Distortion.

You do not need to show a specific build if the post is a discussion of what it means to play against a Condi Mirage.My answer was for a user who said SB / Holo are more OP of Mirage, also saying that they are twice as effective is a way to compare the classes.I never said the opposite about the instant skills, I said "the ranger class mechanic has skill with a long casting" which is very different.Give a different meaning to my words, I said Mirage has all those features in a single build unlike other classes, and I explained why SB will never have a single, effective build to cover multiple roles like Mirage and I made some examplesI try to be objective and argue why Mirage can not be considered inferior to other specializations and why I think this, and this does not mean that i hate the class.

Ah I see.I agree that mirage is not inferior in the slightest, But I also don't think it is the overbearing titan of all classes like people choose to believe.I would say power mirage is a little underwhelming when you figure out the patterns, and apply pressure.

Fair enough on the comparison, I can understand how it could be interpreted that way. Though I did not intend to compare build v build.You did list instant skills in the long list of things a mirage has in it's build. You did not say anything about the class mechanic in the original post I quoted. Which is what my comment referred to. For your reference though

@Revolution.5409 said:

no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has instant skills and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build

While I did agree with you on the invuln part for ranger, I disagree with stealth as " having it in a build" is quite different from " having safe access" In your original list you did not specify "at will" or "safe" as such that list would be misleading, which is what my comment to that post pointed out. If you were talking about the ability to safely go into stealth - Holo would be the better comparison, and thus your list would need to be modified to only defend ranger in that category(That doesn't however mean that ranger has None it does, its random, but it does.)

[Solori.6025]

@Bossun.2046 said:Power mesmer is alright to go against. You know their rotation and what their heavy hitting skills are. Can avoid or block easily if you pay attention. Condi axe mirage on the other hand is the complete opposite. With the clones, ports stealth and distortion the best thing one can hope is that it's their first time playing mesmer

Both builds have clone ports stealth and distortion. The only difference is conditions. Conditions is what needs to be looked at.

[Revolution.5409]

@Solori.6025 said:

Ah I see.I agree that mirage is not inferior in the slightest, But I also don't think it is the overbearing titan of all classes like people choose to believe.I would say power mirage is a little underwhelming when you figure out the patterns, and apply pressure.

Fair enough on the comparison, I can understand how it could be interpreted that way. Though I did not intend to compare build v build.You did list instant skills in the long list of things a mirage has in it's build. You did not say anything about the class mechanic in the original post I quoted. Which is what my comment referred to. For your reference though

@"Revolution.5409" said:

no one says that SB or Holosmith are not strong, but comparing a class that is dueler, and effective teamfighter that has

instant skills

and has access to teleporters, invisibility, stuns and invulnerability all in one build

While I did agree with you on the invuln part for ranger, I disagree with stealth as " having it in a build" is quite different from " having safe access" In your original list you did not specify "at will" or "safe" as such that list would be misleading, which is what my comment to that post pointed out. If you were talking about the ability to safely go into stealth - Holo would be the better comparison, and thus your list would need to be modified to only defend ranger in that category(

That doesn't however mean that ranger has

None

it does, its random, but it does.

)

sure I agree in fact my post did not want to represent the class as "mesmer OP needs nerf" but it goes against those who think it is inferior, so I listed what it is able to do to prove otherwiseIt is true I generalized I will try to better argue my posts in the future. :)

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@mortrialus.3062 said:And you don't get that I think mesmers should primarily contribute to conquest games with unique one of a kind utility like they have for six years until portal was smiters booned.so mesmers are less snowflaky, big whoop... but guess what. they still have a meta build, plus a couple other good working builds. le gasp!

[mortrialus.3062]

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:And you don't get that I think mesmers should primarily contribute to conquest games with unique one of a kind utility like they have for six years until portal was smiters booned.so mesmers are less snowflaky, big whoop... but guess what. they still have a meta build, plus a couple other good working builds. le gasp!

Portal plays have consistently been the coolest, most exciting plays in conquest and the value of the skill gets higher the smarter and more creatively it is used. We want more abilities to work like Portal in the sense of how interesting and unique their utility is, as well as how high the skill cap for their use can be.

You would turn conquest into a skillless game of Rock Em Sock Em Robots where people just stand still pushing buttons until someone eventually wins, which to be fair it sounds like you desperately need.