Break the double druid habit - Alternative Healers and their perks

[Walhalla.5473]

@"Yasi.9065" said:Why bring that one healer which you already have and that cant add anything else to the squad?

Well I would say that people do it because of the double druid times of HoT. Druids in HoT could heal for more but they also had an unique buff that was just straight broken. GotL was a straight damage boost that could hit 5 people so groups needed 2 of them to give the whole group enough GotL. Even after buffing it up to 10 man people brought in 2 druids for enough grace and to give everyone the spirits ( 10-man spirits were introduced after PoF release ), you were basically gimping your group if you replaced a druid with another healer. Also the other healer option back then were heal tempest and herald. Tempest just brought heals and geyser instead of good offensive buffs and herald was considered too finicky.

We had this double druid stuff for a whole expansion, which made sure that people who wanted to heal geared up druids and since other potential healers were so rare that some people considered them myths, the idea of other healers being useful is coming to them very slowly. Its basically so engrained in peoples mind that its a very slow process to make them aware that other healers are really good. Even in static groups its basically a slow annoying proccess to get in another healing class. " Heal scourge isn't doing anything....Tempest is too much healing.... 1 Druid can't give 25 might to everyone... etc.etc"

The only advantage a second druid brings is allowing the first druid to be a bit more flexible with his utility skills and some traits.

[Rodrick.1942]

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

Good point!

He just doesn't understand that the topic isn't about his static or pug group. He didn't get we were talking about the whole raiding community and not the ones that can clear content as fast as possible including speed runners.

[Draco.9480]

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

[Draco.9480]

also another solution. replace 2nd healer with banner warr healer with cc. you don't have to sacrifice a dps spot for banners, ea, cc. so you can have 6 dpsers.

[Vinceman.4572]

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

[Draco.9480]

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

[Jeknar.6184]

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

Besides, if you are putting in a extra dps player, you are actually making it easier on the DPS as they can hit lower numbers with 7 people than when you have 6. So this whole convo about having a second healer is making it easy is just moot point. Having a extra healer and one less DPS just shift the issue from "not get hit often or die for lack of healing" to "hit harder or die to enrage".

[Vinceman.4572]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

Besides, if you are putting in a extra dps player, you are actually making it easier on the DPS as they can hit lower numbers with 7 people than when you have 6. So this whole convo about having a second healer is making it easy is just moot point. Having a extra healer and one less DPS just shift the issue from "not get hit often or die for lack of healing" to "hit harder or die to enrage".

Agreed completely. Additionally there are challenge motes for most of the bosses.It's ok to look for an extra challenge but the minority of players is seeking that in aforesaid content every week over and over again. Go low-manning or soloing stuff like we've seen from Sesshi or Roul (and others) in the past. In my opinion it's insane to put extra pressure on stuff you want to beat with others unless you don't want that extra challenge which is totally fine. You just need to look out for those groups or creating them by yourself. Still I don't advice trying to highjack a run-of-the-mill lfg that only wants to beat a boss and annoy them by your personal, in this case useless thoughts about the team composition.

[Yonatan.5143]

@Jeknar.6184 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rodrick.1942 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Vinceman.4572 said:

@Draco.9480 said:if they can't do it with 1 healer and people keep arguing that they want double heal shouldn't even raid.

That's a bullcrap argument and you know it. People have different skill levels in this game and there are groups even not able to kill bosses with 2 healers. Who are you that you set the parameters for permission to raid? Laughable at best! ^^

people made raid farming rewards and not challenge. people that stick to those "safe" method tends to wipe more than those with risky methods cuz people are confident enough in their skill to perform better and kill the boss faster than double heal and know the mechanics better.

Although it's correct that the faster you kill bosses the lesser mechanics you have to play and decreasing the risk of wiping it's also as well true that one healer pug groups tend to struggle way more with downies here and there and in the end having a terrible scholar buff uptime resulting in less dps than a group with 2 healer/2 druids.

what 2nd druid will give you a gorse? you'll only wipe the group by lack of dps.

I don't care about Gorse, he is no benchmark for wipes in pugs nowadays.

people still fail gorse in dps check. if they fail in this boss as dps check they shouldn't play raids before training on their dps. cuz they'll leech in harder bosses. idc about people with low skill. i just won't play with those people. i don't want people that rely on healing all the time to leech my raiding.

Imao , "leech my raid", I hope one day you wont need help from others ,because if you do , you're actually leech others too.

total red heiring. talking about people who can't play without double heal then you tell me i leech raids cuz i need people in a raid. raid is meant for 10 man people of course people need each other. but there's a level of needing. everyone has to bring their max and if they rely on double heal they don't do their max.

All in all it's a game for the majority of humans and not a job or survival/emergency situation.

for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.

Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?

Besides, if you are putting in a extra dps player, you are actually making it easier on the DPS as they can hit lower numbers with 7 people than when you have 6. So this whole convo about having a second healer is making it easy is just moot point. Having a extra healer and one less DPS just shift the issue from "not get hit often or die for lack of healing" to "hit harder or die to enrage".

it won't increase the chance at all. it only increase the chance in like 3-4 bosses. everything else having a 2nd healer will just make it longer and face more mechanics. for single healer you don't take druid for the sake of healing but for the sake of might and other buffs. single druid also has roles as pusher, entangle etc.

[Yasi.9065]

@Draco.9480 said:for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.AND@"Yonatan.5143" said:it won't increase the chance at all. it only increase the chance in like 3-4 bosses. everything else having a 2nd healer will just make it longer and face more mechanics. for single healer you don't take druid for the sake of healing but for the sake of might and other buffs. single druid also has roles as pusher, entangle etc.

Completely irrelevant. This thread is about 2 healer+2 buffer comps, the currently most played comp in lfg squads. Please keep "but you dont need a second healer" out of this thread, this thread was NOT intended by me as a platform to discuss the comp itself. If you want to discuss that, please open a new thread and discuss it there.

To make this clear, I dont want this discussion here because of very good reasons, those being:a) The majority of people posting stuff like "2 healers is a crutch, man up, git gud" cant even be bothered to sidestep dhuum marks and rely on second healers quite heavily in lfg squads.b) Its time to acknowledge that theres a sort of "lfg squad meta comp" with different goals from the SC/DnT/LN/Whatever speedclear comps. That meta needs to be discussed for lfg raiding to become even remotely enjoyable - and thereby raids more attractive, more accessible to newer / more casual players. And it needs to be discussed without trolls constantly harping in, telling everyone how bad they are just for considering a second healer.c) Without a baseline this thread will devolve in namecalling and people calling others toxic, elitist or bad. The comp is this baseline. If you dont like it, refrain from posting, this thread is NOT for you then.

Again, this thread is for discussions about the second healer in a comp consisting off:2 healers2 buffers1 bannerwarrior5 DPS

This thread is NOT for speedclears or lowman stuff, or the discussion of why speedclears and lowman stuff is "better" or "worse".

[Draco.9480]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Draco.9480 said:for me double heals looks like a job of farming safely and not enjoying the challenge at all. if you think it's fun to play safe all the time then you're devoid of taste.AND@"Yonatan.5143" said:it won't increase the chance at all. it only increase the chance in like 3-4 bosses. everything else having a 2nd healer will just make it longer and face more mechanics. for single healer you don't take druid for the sake of healing but for the sake of might and other buffs. single druid also has roles as pusher, entangle etc.

Completely irrelevant. This thread is about 2 healer+2 buffer comps, the currently most played comp in lfg squads. Please keep "but you dont need a second healer" out of this thread, this thread was NOT intended by me as a platform to discuss the comp itself. If you want to discuss that, please open a new thread and discuss it there.

To make this clear, I dont want this discussion here because of very good reasons, those being:a) The majority of people posting stuff like "2 healers is a crutch, man up, git gud" cant even be bothered to sidestep dhuum marks and rely on second healers quite heavily in lfg squads.b) Its time to acknowledge that theres a sort of "lfg squad meta comp" with different goals from the SC/DnT/LN/Whatever speedclear comps. That meta needs to be discussed for lfg raiding to become even remotely enjoyable - and thereby raids more attractive, more accessible to newer / more casual players. And it needs to be discussed without trolls constantly harping in, telling everyone how bad they are just for considering a second healer.c) Without a baseline this thread will devolve in namecalling and people calling others toxic, elitist or bad. The comp is this baseline. If you dont like it, refrain from posting, this thread is NOT for you then.

Again, this thread is for discussions about the second healer in a comp consisting off:2 healers2 buffers1 bannerwarrior5 DPS

This thread is NOT for speedclears or lowman stuff, or the discussion of why speedclears and lowman stuff is "better" or "worse".

idc. freedom of speech.

[Henry.5713]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Henry.5713 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:

@Henry.5713 said:Such a second slot could and many cases should be considered a waste no matter which class you use for it. The most obvious choice, once people realized a single druid is able to maintain 25 Might, would be to not even have a second healer slot then. That is, if the issue is actually only about the Might.I don't deny that there better options than a second druid, all with their own benefits, not to mention most of them do provide decent might for at least their own party, but none of them are strictly needed unless you really struggle without the additional healing in which case anything is an improvement even the trusty second Druid.

Its nice that you think one healer should always be enough and people just need to "git gud" but please, not here.

While I value any input, this thread is specifically tailored towards the most commonly used lfg squad comp -> 2x chrono, 2x healer (see first post).

Minimalistic support comps are not suited for the majority of the raid playerbase, and they are in no way suited for lfg squads that are comprised of people that never played together and all have different skill-levels.

Also, you are wrong. Even a shoutwarrior would be more of an improvement than a 2nd druid.

You seem to have misunderstood me there. Bring a second healer if you need one, "unless you really struggle without one" is what I said.

Let me try again, you did say they insist on having a second Druid for the sole purpose of being able to provide 25 Might and then proceeded to go into a long explanation on about how one Druid is able to do it all by themselves. Guess you are telling Druids to "git gud" at providing Might then?Chuckles aside, you seem to greatly underestimate what a single Druid can do if you think they are close to useless in comparison with the other builds you mentioned, even more so as the second Druid would be free to run Lingering Light being the second healer. Unless you yourself think the second Druid needs to have GOTL even though one can provide all of the Might needed.And no, I am not saying there aren't better options if you need to have a second healer. I simply think it is a bit much to claim anything would be better. PuG commanders go with what they know and they always assume Druids (or anything really) to be mediocre and struggle at pretty much everything, including Might. Thus they insist on having both which is indeed silly.

No, Im not telling druids to "git gud", Im saying its so laughably easy that failing at it is a huge embarassement and should never be tolerated. Theres nothing, absolutely nothing, difficult about providing might, spirits and fury on a druid. Either you cant because your squad is so spread out that, and then its not your fault at all... and you cant change anything, or you are just plain afk. Yes, even a mediocre druid will be able to provide those things. The difference between a good druid and a mediocre druid is how good he can predict and cope with special situations... NOT how much might, spirit and fury uptime he can provide.Im not "underestimating" druid healing. Ive been a druid main since HoT release up until PoF. Lingering lights is a very bad joke, even Ancient Seeds has more use than a trait that makes your healing more overheal than it already is. The problem is NOT not enough healing on druid, the problem is that you are locked out of your healing in critical moments. Other healer builds do NOT have this problem and in addition bring certain extras that benefit your squad immensely.Tbh, I think you are just so stuck in your "2 druids is fine" spiel, that you dont even realize how slackening a second druid is compared to ALL alternatives.

Interesting comparison and assumption about the spiel I am supposed to be stuck on.What does make a Druid good? Now that is debatable. One could say what makes you good is to not struggle to solo heal and to be able to predict moments where your squad needs big healing to not be locked out of Avatar Form combined with providing the Might needed. Or one could take the route you did with your complaint about Might and put the blame on the squad as their movement or mistakes cause some of the downstates which is obviously never your fault. But of course that would be mean and me telling them to "git gud" again and we would have gone full circle...

Here's a few examples for you to think about.VG -> Outhealing greens. Before the first green even spawns you already have to use the "big heals" because dps players, especially dhs, like to stand in VG cleave, while other dps players - mainly DEs - get ported and loose 1/3 of their health everytime. You'd need constant about 3k healing but druid always has a gap where healing drops to only regen ticks.Gorseval -> Slow cc because dps havent found their cc buttons to smash. Theres a point, even if you do everything perfectly, have full avatar on beginning of the cc phase, that you run out of healing on a druid. "Good" druids can prolong this a bit with blasting a certain waterfield, but thats it. Slow to no cc gorseval shows you imo quite nicely the limitations of druid as a healer.Sabetha -> Karde and after phase. People stand in cannons, in Karde's flamethrower, turrets dont get focused. Kiting druid starts trying to heal more and maybe even places a few burning fields near the group, which ofc that DE is gonna stand in.Etc. Thats all things that I see on a daily basis in lfg raids. Did the druid do anything wrong? No. Healing on druid is designed to have this gap. To be burst healing and not constant healing. LFG squads however profit quite a lot from constant healing since you always have at least those players that just face tanks nearly every mechanic.Ofc you could kick those players that practically force you to run something with constant healing. But as a commander you got other stuff to do than go check after each try which player ate the most dmg, then evaluate if it was due to failed mechanics or something harmless like rezzing someone downed in poison while he got healed up. Thats the kind of thing I do for my static, but sure as hell not for lfg squads.As a lfg squad commander you learn to overlook stuff like that and just adapt your expectations - and your comp. At least good lfg squad commanders do that.Sadly theres quite a lot of copy&paste lfg commanders out there, that just take the most commonly used comp in speedclears, multiply supporters in it until they only need about 2 pulls per boss, and call that "meta". Hence this thread.

VG - Green explosions can be water field blasted with the additional Cultivated Synergy buffed Glyth of Rejuvenation heal to back it up. Leaving you free to use your Avatar off cooldown to stack might and previde constant healing while it is up.Gorseval - Slow CC is a little tougher but you can handle it by using the same healing skill combination at first and only go into Avatar last second which gives you enough time. "Avatar 1 spam" even allows you to pinpoint target those outside of your own group going low.Funny you mention Gorseval. It is the one boss where I certainly take my Druid over any other build for this reason alone. Each their own, I guess.Sebetha - The flame thrower is easily predictable which allows you to have your Avatar or the healing blast combo ready. People eating every cannon hit and flames being placed badly is an issue but not one you can't handle by having blasts, the Glyth of Rejuvenation and Avatar ready. The trick is to not use them together. Be more conservative with your cooldowns.

Just for the sake of a detailed discussion, any of these situations can be handled by a single Druid. I have been doing so for a very long time, including runs with training groups I have run with. Thus I would have to assume that I am either able to do more than two mediocre Druids combined or that you are overexaggerating a second Druid's (or even the first Druid's) uselessness when it comes to healing. Hell, it has become something like a running joke with my static squad that players outside of my group try to kill themselves on Gorseval retalitation while I make sure to stop them. A second Druid would have to do close to nothing to be as useless as you claim.

But yes, this is about a second healer. And once again, I still do not say there aren't better options for a second healer. Firebrands and especially Renegades do pretty well in this regard. They allow you to spam your healing skills more freely while providing additional boons such as squad-wide alacrity or quickness as you mentioned. I fully agree with that. Trust me, I have played them (and support Scourge and Tempest) more than enough myself. All of them have their own weaknesses a Druid does not have. Some have more of them, some have less.That said, having to be the second healer... would I pick a Druid in most cases? No, obviously not. Most groups which suffer in terms of healing are at the level where they also suffer from a lack of Quickness or Alacrity which makes Firebrands or Renegades the prime builds to pick. Not to mention the additional group Might they provide. But do I think I would be useless if I played a second Druid? No, not even close.

We can agree to disagree on this one. You are either talking about Druids who do close to nothing right or I am blinded by my own, I dare to say, rather good Druid play. Probably a little of both.

[Yasi.9065]

I feel like we are constantly talking past each other. My whole point was that upkeeping might, fury and spirits is so easy that really everyone can do it. If you cant deliver that, then you shouldnt be doing endcontent at all.This as answer to the "but what if the druid we have cant upkeep might" argument that gets put before me everytime I say any other healer is better as a second healer than druid.

In no way am I saying that you need a second healer, for anything in gw2. But since most lfg squads like the idea of a second healer... then at least... PLEASE go for one of the other options since every other healer brings at least one additional thing that will speed up your kills, compared to 2nd druid.

2x tank chrono, 2x druid is the worst comp you can run atm. :(

[reapex.8546]

@Yasi.9065 said:Hey,

this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

Harrier RenegadeThe chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that >elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to >play as well, in contrast to chrono.

Hi Yasi,

1) What does DE stand for in reference to Chrono?You mention it with a Harrier Renegade.2) 10 Man Fury.FB Axe only supplies might to 5 people correct?I'm guessing one Chrono will use SOI on the fury they receive from the FB Healer then the 2nd chrono will use SOI to cover the other subgroup.Or did you have a different idea on how to apply 10 man fury, like Feel My Wraith?I also discovered Valor instead of Virtues can spam out fury. So, that's an alternative as well.

[Yasi.9065]

@reapex.8546 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:Hey,

this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

Harrier Renegade

The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that >elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to >play as well, in contrast to chrono.

Hi Yasi,

1) What does DE stand for in reference to Chrono?You mention it with a Harrier Renegade.2) 10 Man Fury.FB Axe only supplies might to 5 people correct?I'm guessing one Chrono will use SOI on the fury they receive from the FB Healer then the 2nd chrono will use SOI to cover the other subgroup.Or did you have a different idea on how to apply 10 man fury, like Feel My Wraith?I also discovered Valor instead of Virtues can spam out fury. So, that's an alternative as well.

1. Illusionary Disenchanter (phantasm)
2. The thing about fury is, that you need to provide at the most 60% and thats if you have a diviners renegade. For all other builds its more like 40% overall or only cover 100% until boss reaches < 75% or only a starter fury to get them going. So for example any healer with 100% boon duration wouldnt even need to bring anything for fury for his subgrp, just picking up the discipline banner and using skill2 (and 3) regularly already does the trick. If you dont want to do that, then theres quite a lot of different possibilties, like elite shout on firebrand (depending on boonduration thats between 27-55%), or axe symbol (100%). Other builds like renegade healer or heal scourge have to resort to banner-shenanigans, but its honestly not a big problem. You usually have enough time for it - other than for example a chrono with its rather tight rotation to maximize dps.
3. Trading Virtues for Valor means you loose the passive heal from f2 tome, tome cooldown reduce, longer retal duration and condi remove on f2 activation. You gain an extra aegis when you block something. In my opinion absolutely not worth it, and put succinctly, also not necessary. On most bosses you want to bring an axe anyway because the pull is quite nice on adds, and just swapping to it when fury runs out already is enough... you dont have to camp axe all the time. Btw axe fury is currently bugged and doesnt pulse around the symbol, but rather around the fb. Probably gonna get adressed next balance patch in 2 months or so.
4. For might Id suggest bringing a druid anyway. So far druid is unsurpassed in that area. No other build can stack might as fast, as regularly and its on 10 people on top of that. Trying to get enough might together in squads without a druid is a bit of a nightmare. FB/Ren can do it with a core bannerwarrior running dumplings taking care of one grp and a harrier renegade with a diviners firebrand in the other grp. But thats something for statics, not really suited for lfg squads (yet?). That druid, btw, doesnt have to be heal... a viper condi druid is just as sufficient.

[Grogba.6204]

@"Draco.9480" said:

idc. freedom of speech.

You know what's ironic? Your attitude. Why? Because it is the number one reason why raids are not as popular as they could be and Teapot is absolutely right that people like you are killing off raids faster than any "Casul scum" ever could.

I like raids but we have to face and accept reality. And that reality tells us that less than 10% of the players registered on GW2efficiency have even one Legendary Divination. Less than 10 pecent! And that is only from a website that is heavily skewed towards the more invested players in the first place and it is very likely that the number is even lower in total and Anet's metrics. If you check CM clear percentage it, too, is insanely low compared to the players playing the content. Nevermind those players doing the CMs accross multiple accounts or outright buying them.

These numbers are concerning because in the end, you can continue to look down on players requiring more than one healer in raidcontent all you like but keep in mind that Anet has to make a profit from the content they design and developing content for a minority of a minority (the speedrun level/lowman crowd and benchmark creators) is simply put not sustainable.

But sure, belittle Yasi, Vinceman and the others for improving the quality of life in PUG-raiding. If you want Anet to push out more raids and at a faster rate gatekeeping the content is the fastest way to accomplish the opposite.

[Talindra.4958]

Druid can blast a lot... a lot newbie druid doesn't do much skills combo .. but two water fields multiple blasts and with traits that reduce CD to get more blast.. these are on top of the regen.. druid can basically heal around the clock

[Draco.9480]

@Grogba.6204 said:

@"Draco.9480" said:

idc. freedom of speech.

You know what's ironic? Your attitude. Why? Because it is the number one reason why raids are not as popular as they could be and Teapot is absolutely right that people like you are killing off raids faster than any "Casul scum" ever could.

I like raids but we have to face and accept reality. And that reality tells us that less than 10% of the players registered on GW2efficiency have even

one

Legendary Divination.

Less than 10 pecent!

And that is only from a website that is heavily skewed towards the more invested players in the first place and it is very likely that the number is even lower in total and Anet's metrics. If you check CM clear percentage it, too, is insanely low compared to the players playing the content. Nevermind those players doing the CMs accross multiple accounts or outright buying them.

These numbers are concerning because in the end,

you

can continue to look down on players requiring more than one healer in raidcontent all you like but keep in mind that Anet has to make a profit from the content they design and developing content for a minority of a minority (the speedrun level/lowman crowd and benchmark creators) is simply put not sustainable.

But sure, belittle Yasi, Vinceman and the others for improving the quality of life in PUG-raiding. If you want Anet to push out more raids and at a faster rate gatekeeping the content is the fastest way to accomplish the opposite.

not my problem people can't play properly and use invalid builds/comps and feed to ai. so i'm not allowed to have freedom of speech cuz majority can't play raids? what kind of logic is that. if the truth hurts people then why play in mmorpg in the first place? it's the internet. deal with it. if you don't push players to be better, they won't be better. if it sets 'em off they'll never be better cuz being offended over people like me who "talk down" on people isn't an argument.

[reapex.8546]

@Yasi.9065 said:

@reapex.8546 said:

@Yasi.9065 said:Hey,

this thread only concerns comps with 2x boon support + 2x healer.

Harrier Renegade

The chronos can remove WoR and bring Precog Well or mimic or DE or Feedback or whatever is best suited. And instead of having to search hours for that >elusive tank chrono you can also just let the Renegade tank while bringing in a quickbrand or healbrand for quickness and fury. Healbrand in particular is easy to >play as well, in contrast to chrono.

Hi Yasi,

1) What does DE stand for in reference to Chrono?You mention it with a Harrier Renegade.2) 10 Man Fury.FB Axe only supplies might to 5 people correct?I'm guessing one Chrono will use SOI on the fury they receive from the FB Healer then the 2nd chrono will use SOI to cover the other subgroup.Or did you have a different idea on how to apply 10 man fury, like Feel My Wraith?I also discovered Valor instead of Virtues can spam out fury. So, that's an alternative as well.

1. Illusionary Disenchanter (phantasm)
2. The thing about fury is, that you need to provide at the most 60% and thats if you have a diviners renegade. For all other builds its more like 40% overall or only cover 100% until boss reaches < 75% or only a starter fury to get them going. So for example any healer with 100% boon duration wouldnt even need to bring anything for fury for his subgrp, just picking up the discipline banner and using skill2 (and 3) regularly already does the trick. If you dont want to do that, then theres quite a lot of different possibilties, like elite shout on firebrand (depending on boonduration thats between 27-55%), or axe symbol (100%). Other builds like renegade healer or heal scourge have to resort to banner-shenanigans, but its honestly not a big problem. You usually have enough time for it - other than for example a chrono with its rather tight rotation to maximize dps.
3. Trading Virtues for Valor means you loose the passive heal from f2 tome, tome cooldown reduce, longer retal duration and condi remove on f2 activation. You gain an extra aegis when you block something. In my opinion absolutely not worth it, and put succinctly, also not necessary. On most bosses you want to bring an axe anyway because the pull is quite nice on adds, and just swapping to it when fury runs out already is enough... you dont have to camp axe all the time. Btw axe fury is currently bugged and doesnt pulse around the symbol, but rather around the fb. Probably gonna get adressed next balance patch in 2 months or so.
4. For might Id suggest bringing a druid anyway. So far druid is unsurpassed in that area. No other build can stack might as fast, as regularly and its on 10 people on top of that. Trying to get enough might together in squads without a druid is a bit of a nightmare. FB/Ren can do it with a core bannerwarrior running dumplings taking care of one grp and a harrier renegade with a diviners firebrand in the other grp. But thats something for statics, not really suited for lfg squads (yet?). That druid, btw, doesnt have to be heal... a viper condi druid is just as sufficient.

1) Illusionary Disenchnater is DE? Thought that would be IDE. Thank you.2) Great info, its what I realized later on but I didn't think of the discipline banner, thank you.3) Yeah, I realized the symbol of vengeance was bug when I tested it. Hopefully, will get fixed soon.4) Yeah, a viper druid is an alternative.

Thanks for the follow up :D

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

@Jeknar.6184 said:Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

[GeraldBC.4927]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

Speak for yourself. If you're at the point where you already have several legendary pieces or 400+ Legendary Insights, then sure, who cares whether a boss dies, you're not doing it to beat them any more. But when you're still on the way there and every pug you join is a gamble whether their eminence the squad leader will debase themselves so far to take on someone like you who has only 100-200 LIs outside of a fruitless training raid, you're very happy to put better prospects towards beating the boss over 'teh challeng'.

[MoriMoriMori.5349]

@GeraldBC.4927 said:If you're at the point where you already have several legendary pieces or 400+ Legendary Insights, then sure, who cares whether a boss dies, you're not doing it to beat them any more. But when you're still on the way there

On the way where, sorry? And what is so special about that vague destination you want to sacrifice a fun of playing a game for it, and instead turn it into a chore? I really hope you're being paid for that hard work, with hard enough coin )) Otherwise I fail to see any reason in such decision. Getting anywhere in an online game like this one (not even a real cybersport kind of game, where you could get something from it, in the end; though, cybersports... meh, whatever :P ) is an utterly pointless achievement which brings literally nothing (even those digits on remote servers don't actually belong to you, if you'll check the EULA). Zero, nill. Only the game and fun it brings with it does matter, in the end, and chores are better done IRL, at a good $/hour rate.

@GeraldBC.4927 said:and every pug you join is a gamble whether their eminence the squad leader will debase themselves so far to take on someone like you who has only 100-200 LIs outside of a fruitless training raid, you're very happy to put better prospects towards beating the boss over 'teh challeng'.

I would say it's time to find a good, seemingly-minded people and play with them on constant basis instead. I would, if it wasn't a total inversion of the actual situation out there. It's much, much more likely you'll encounter a leader which is extremely toxic and demanding, and has the only goal of beating everything as fast as possible because he is obsessed with that "getting there" thing and can't waste a single extra minute to play the actual game and have some fun. But hey, if you indeed bump into groups doing it for fun and challenge on regular basis, be a good fella and send me their contacts. Because I'm having hard times finding any, actually ;)

[Yasi.9065]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@"Jeknar.6184" said:Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

Succeeding is important for morale, the how is important as well. However, I really dont get the "a second healer makes all bosses trivial" argument. Because if you choose the right one, it wont, and most of the time - at least if you arent in a hardcore raiding guild - the right second healer actually means more squad dps.Take harrier renegade for example. It brings faster cc on a low cd, 10man alacrity, 10-25% kalla elite uptime on 10 man and AP for 5. All this while bringing also quite a lot of healing for ignoring mechanics.Firebrand, brings high scholar uptime thanks to the lots of small healing ticks + aegis, quickness for 5 man, etc.Healscourge brings vampiric aura for 5 and barrier on 10, again letting you ignore quite a lot of mechanics. Like heal rev it brings a lot of cc and extra utility. Sufficient epidemic on some boss encounters with plaguedoctors/marshal.

Of course, theres a point where you wont need a second healer anymore - in a static.

In LFG squads, the skill level is too varied, and the squad isnt well attuned.... its just not a static but 10 random players. You loose way more dps from not having 100% boon uptime, high scholar uptime, miscommunication as to where tank moves next (and when) and my favourite - slow cc, than you gain from one more dps player.

Yes, in theory you'll never need a second healer. But in reality, it smooths discrepancies in communication, little personal mistakes and - how to put this delicately - its a utility slot for all those pesky mechanics every dps player thinks someone else should do because his dps is just way to important and precious.

[Cyninja.2954]

@MoriMoriMori.5349 said:

@Jeknar.6184 said:Succeeding is more fun than wiping imo... If double heal will increase the chances of succeeding, then why doing it is such a issue?Succeeding is not fun at all, on itself, imo. May be first time, may be even after the 2nd run (but much less), but what fun in routinely beating the same content 5-10 times in a row? That doesn't make sense. Good game generates fun while you play it, not only at the end. If you only have fun at the brief moment at the end of the long run - why do you even play it? It seems like you're doing a chore, and it's better to do chores IRL instead, preferable at a fixed $/hour rate. By ensuring you'll beat it, you are effectively killing the game aspect of it.

Actually, using 2 healers is more natural or in tune with the games mechanics compared to 1 healer for 10 people. Even now a vast majority of abilities target only 5 people maximum, thus 1 sub group.

The fact that Arenanet has opened up the ability and made it easier to solo heal raid content, mostly to free up dedicated spots to other roles, is still not any where near where one could say that the game is designed around 1 heal. Static groups or very skilled PUG groups might be able to improve their game play far enough to be able to break mechanics, most players do not though.

Succeeding is fun because it is part of a process. The first boss kill will be the most rewarding for just about any player. Subsequent boss kills will feel less rewarding but even then there are distinctions between how well a run overall went. I think you are over emphasizing how important the success part of a boss kill is given how much effort and practice some people need to put in.

At the same time, very high skilled players continue to try to find faster and more efficient ways to beat content. To most regular or less experienced players this might seem off too. Breaking content so hard that bosses die in 2 minutes or less. Then again, it's once again the journey and challenge to them on a higher level.

To each their own.