Balance Notes Preview - Discussion

[otto.5684]

@"mrauls.6519" said:I think core guard will be the same... use marauder amulet

Less about 10% damage and 4K HP. Same ?

[mrauls.6519]

@otto.5684 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:I think core guard will be the same... use marauder amulet

Less about 10% damage and 4K HP. Same ?

XP

I should've said... "viable"? I tried it out and it feels usable... Better than DH anyway

[otto.5684]

@"mrauls.6519" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:I think core guard will be the same... use marauder amulet

Less about 10% damage and 4K HP. Same ?

XP

I should've said... "viable"? I tried it out and it feels usable... Better than DH anyway

I am sure it still better than DH. Wait, that 300 range on LB 2 must have made DH top tier.

[Obtena.7952]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

How does it not?

Because his argument isn't about how much DPS c;lasses do. It's about what reasonable crit buffs look like. Those aren't the same thing.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

How does it not?

Because his argument isn't about how much DPS c;lasses do. It's about what reasonable crit buffs look like. Those aren't the same thing.

Critic chance and critic damage are a subset of overall damage, after all it is CRITICAL DAMAGE. Damage is right there in the name. Just by abbreviating it out and writing "critic" instead, that does not change what it is. By changing anything related to critical damage you automatically change overall damage. They are the same thing.

This is arguing just for the sake of arguing.

[Ragnarox.9601]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ragnarox.9601 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:So to sum up your arguments @Ezrael.6859 and @Obtena.7952 is that conformity of the traits along the specializations is more important than game balance as a whole?

Btw, DH never used Radiance for PvP. The access to reliation it has does not justify giving up valor for it. I know this doesn't negate your point, i just think it is worth pointing out, since i have already commented on Core Guardian and on Harrierbrand on this thread and said nothing about PvP Radiance DH.

I don't see any evidence that this change affects game balance in any negative way ... at least not in the negative way you are trying to show ... especially considering that it's arguable that Anet primarily balances according to performance to begin with or the fact that it's not even in the game to see it yet.

I do see people struggling to present conjecture as proof in a vain effort to do ... something.

Can you tell us senpai whats your rating in pvp? did you ever played in platinum? Did you played anything than support guardian in wvw? Or you are here just to mock your fellow guardian players? If you are playing deadly casual and have no worries if something is nerfed or not why are you here, you clearly dont help to improve guardians just saying in every nerf "its justified, white-black, good-bad, tomejto-tomato".Guardians (especially FB) got hit like truck last patch with 50% tome nerf, this patch core guard (and every guard spec) was hit like a truck with again 50% nerf, next patch its probably DH time to nerf traps by 50%. So you are saying this is all justified while I dont see many guardians in high level pvp.

IF any of that mattered at .... My rating in PVP has something to do with understanding why Anet is changing RI? Interesting connection ...

... you still think Anet is balancing primarily to performance or do you need another 6 years to be convinced how this works?

It does have, cause this nerf doesent hit you that hard cause you dont have any skill for high rating pvp or wvw. From my point of view a plain casual like you have no right to talk about nerf or buffs cause you dont even play this class properly at high level pvp or wvw...As someone previously mentioned you have no clue and live in your own reality I am stopping this discussion with someone whos max rating in pvp was gold 1 probably and under 300 lvl wvw.

[Obtena.7952]

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Turkeyspit.3965" said:

How does it not?

Because his argument isn't about how much DPS c;lasses do. It's about what reasonable crit buffs look like. Those aren't the same thing.

Critic chance and critic damage are a subset of overall damage, after all it is

CRITICAL DAMAGE

. Damage is right there in the name. Just by abbreviating it out and writing "critic" instead, that does not change what it is. By changing anything related to critical damage you automatically change overall damage. They are the same thing.

This is arguing just for the sake of arguing.

yes, they are, but that's not the point Ezrael was trying to make. Please try to follow.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ragnarox.9601 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ragnarox.9601 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:So to sum up your arguments @Ezrael.6859 and @Obtena.7952 is that conformity of the traits along the specializations is more important than game balance as a whole?

Btw, DH never used Radiance for PvP. The access to reliation it has does not justify giving up valor for it. I know this doesn't negate your point, i just think it is worth pointing out, since i have already commented on Core Guardian and on Harrierbrand on this thread and said nothing about PvP Radiance DH.

I don't see any evidence that this change affects game balance in any negative way ... at least not in the negative way you are trying to show ... especially considering that it's arguable that Anet primarily balances according to performance to begin with or the fact that it's not even in the game to see it yet.

I do see people struggling to present conjecture as proof in a vain effort to do ... something.

Can you tell us senpai whats your rating in pvp? did you ever played in platinum? Did you played anything than support guardian in wvw? Or you are here just to mock your fellow guardian players? If you are playing deadly casual and have no worries if something is nerfed or not why are you here, you clearly dont help to improve guardians just saying in every nerf "its justified, white-black, good-bad, tomejto-tomato".Guardians (especially FB) got hit like truck last patch with 50% tome nerf, this patch core guard (and every guard spec) was hit like a truck with again 50% nerf, next patch its probably DH time to nerf traps by 50%. So you are saying this is all justified while I dont see many guardians in high level pvp.

IF any of that mattered at .... My rating in PVP has something to do with understanding why Anet is changing RI? Interesting connection ...

... you still think Anet is balancing primarily to performance or do you need another 6 years to be convinced how this works?

It does have, cause this nerf doesent hit you that hard cause you dont have any skill for high rating pvp or wvw. From my point of view a plain casual like you have no right to talk about nerf or buffs cause you dont even play this class properly at high level pvp or wvw...As someone previously mentioned you have no clue and live in your own reality I am stopping this discussion with someone whos max rating in pvp was gold 1 probably and under 300 lvl wvw.

So according to you, my PVP ranking is related to my ability to see reason and logical thinking on why Anet changed RI? That's really interesting.

So let me guess how this plays out:

1. I tell you my ranking
2. Regardless of what it is, you say it's too low and I have no clue what I'm talking about
3. ????
4. Anet is wrong about changing RI

Did I get that right?

I guess you already missed the part of the thread where we already had this conversation; How does it occur to you that if Anet is changing RI because of the reasons they state, that somehow you believe some specific point about how it affects PVP has any relevance to that? I mean, I could see if Anet changed RI because of PVP, how a specific point related to it's impact on PVP might matter. But that's not what's happening here, so it seems to me that if you aren't going to have some objective understanding of why Anet is changing RI, and your are just going to hammer some point that's as obvious as possible, there isn't much value in making that point. It's obvious this has negative impact on anyone that was using it ... that's not a reason to not change it.

[Ezrael.6859]

@otto.5684 said:

@Ezrael.6859 said:They don't balance only for PvEasy. Core / DH PvE specs were at 140% crit and now they are at 115% crit... So... what's the problem, you were overcap before and you still are. Nothing for your Berserker PvEasy build will change after the patch for group play, are you complaining just for the sake of complaining?

How about WvW and sPvP. These modes still do exist, you know...

I know, that's all I play.

RI change is fine, and the Guardians I've been chatting to for the past several months all expected it, though we've been running at 50% crit for a while anyway. The only person I know that was full Valk was Helly, I'm sure he'll just add some Marauder or Berserker to pad his Hammer build. I'm also sure he'd admit that core Guard with Valk could do insane damage too easily, it wasn't at all hard to get 250% crit damage with 90-100% crit chance and 25 Might stacks with 20k HP and retain all the regular defenses and sudden mobility a Guardian has.

It still gives 25% crit, it's still a lot when you can maintain Retaliation for 100% of the fight and we have so many ways to access it that boon stripping isn't a concern either.

[Deopolis.9140]

F U with the amplified wrath change.

[otto.5684]

After initial testing today, damage is quite down, as expected. Tried with the condi build. A bit more damage over time. The torch 5 still does not work well. Guardian dps builds are okay.. if your goal is to have fun. It is not competitive with more effective meta builds. The damage loss is significant.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@"mrauls.6519" said:

@otto.5684 said:

@"mrauls.6519" said:I think core guard will be the same... use marauder amulet

Less about 10% damage and 4K HP. Same ?

XP

I should've said... "viable"? I tried it out and it feels usable... Better than DH anyway

IMO may as well just go full melee DH at that point.

Same build as medi-trapper, with a few differences:

• Run GS over hammer. Hammer is alright for this build but GS works better.
• run full medis (maybe shelter as your heal),
• Soaring Devastation, Zealot's Aggression and Big Game Hunter for your DH traits.
• Pretty much any power-based rune

Performs very similarly to core guard. It doesn't have the instantaneous pressure that core guard used to have but it has much better damage over-time, better mobility (better +1ing) and sustain, better 1v1/side-node game and if you land your f1, its damage actually is equal or better than core guard's.

[Misquesh.9504]

That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

[Ryou.2398]

@otto.5684 said:After initial testing today, damage is quite down, as expected. Tried with the condi build. A bit more damage over time. The torch 5 still does not work well. Guardian dps builds are okay.. if your goal is to have fun. It is not competitive with more effective meta builds. The damage loss is significant.

Well I think this is likely end thread right here.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Misquesh.9504" said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

[perko.8309]

A 50% crit buff (with some might stacking BTW) is absolutely OP! Heck, I'm a long time Warrior who's been thru quite a few nerfs. When I read the patch notes, my reaction was, "Wow! Guardian has a +25% crit buff. That's great! Maybe I should switch and try it out."
Now, they could have tried a spoonful of sugar with the medicine, though. Wouldn't it have been a great time to bump up the base health pool? : )

[RevanCorana.8942]

Omg the stupidity level of this thread, it's hopeless

[Leafstorm.1349]

Everyone here is either very against the nerf or for it. I'm very against it for a few reasons, but one of those is the fact that like others have said before, Core Guardian was balanced at best. People focus on the lower divisions and say "it does great there!" however, when you look at plat and especially plat 2+, Core Guardian struggles to keep up with things that do its job better (rev). One should ask questions like "how many Core Guardians were in top 250 last season", "how many Core Guardians are in decent mAT teams", and "what do some of the upper tier players think about it?" before just killing it off.

Core Guardian was fun, but not great. Once you reach a certain level, you can easily hit a wall with it and if you don't have the skill to ascend to new levels of game play, you wont get anywhere. I finished top 100 with it last season and even then that was a struggle where as something like Mesmer would have been much more easy. I think there might have been like two other Core Guardian mains to finish t100... OP? I think not. Rev is absolutely better and always has been.

[Leafstorm.1349]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Misquesh.9504" said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

….Do you even PvP? You realize that's pretty much what this whole thing is about right? If you do and if you're even remotely decent, then you'd realize you're wrong in every aspect.

Good talk.

[Obtena.7952]

Maybe you don't know how quotes work ... I was responding to a guy complaining about the change in PVE ... do try to follow, even a little.

RI wasn't put in there for PVP, so avoiding to change it because of PVP makes no sense.

[otto.5684]

@Leafstorm.1349 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Misquesh.9504" said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

….Do you even PvP? You realize that's pretty much what this whole thing is about right? If you do and if you're even remotely decent, then you'd realize you're wrong in every aspect.

Good talk.

Do not argue with Obtena. However you respond Obtena will say he/she meant something else, you did not read what someone wrote 10-15 posts ago or some secret logic that only he/she and Anet understand.

Your assessment is pretty fair. Regardless of what % RI should be, as guardian stands right, there are no dps builds that can compete in P2 and beyond. What ever diversity song Anet is singing, it has nothing to do with reality. It will take minimum till May before there are any new changes. And even then, changes are not likely to work as intended cuz Anet does bother to test or understand the changes impact on existing builds.

[Misquesh.9504]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Misquesh.9504" said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

Of course you can cap crit easily. By replacing most of your gear with either assassin, berserker or marauder gear, lul. So much sustain compared to what I had already and was perfectly fine with.

That entire nerf is as stupid and useless as it gets. "We want to give players more options by forcing them to use gear that 90% of other power-based professions already use for meta builds". Good stuff, eh? So diverse! I totally am going to pick an alternative build now. Like, uhhhhhhh. Oh wait, they didn't really add any worthwhile alternatives for the playstyle I enjoyed. They just made it harder to use an already existing one.

It was just a half-kittened nerf. Not a proper rebalance. Zero effort. You trying to justify it makes me think that you would let a damn tumor grow in your head if it had "arenanet" written on it. Actually, reading some of your messages in that thread makes me think that it's exactly what's happening.

[Obtena.7952]

@Misquesh.9504 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

Of course you can cap crit easily. By replacing most of your gear with either assassin, berserker or marauder gear, lul. So much sustain compared to what I had already and was perfectly fine with.

Considering no other class had any kind of buff even close to that and they do just fine in PVE, there is no reason to think this 'kills' Guardian in PVE for anyone.

@otto.5684 said:

@Leafstorm.1349 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

….Do you even PvP? You realize that's pretty much what this whole thing is about right? If you do and if you're even remotely decent, then you'd realize you're wrong in every aspect.

Good talk.

Do not argue with Obtena. However you respond Obtena will say he/she meant something else, you did not read what someone wrote 10-15 posts ago or some secret logic that only he/she and Anet understand.

Your assessment is pretty fair. Regardless of what % RI should be, as guardian stands right, there are no dps builds that can compete in P2 and beyond. What ever diversity song Anet is singing, it has nothing to do with reality. It will take minimum till May before there are any new changes. And even then, changes are not likely to work as intended cuz Anet does bother to test or understand the changes impact on existing builds.

Actually, he shouldn't respond to me if he can't be bothered to follow the conversation; I was replying to someone who was talking about PVE. If people were remotely decent as he claims, they wouldn't be crying about losing 25% crit rate in any game mode. This is the same dooffery when Guardians were crying about Pure of Voice getting fixed to convert one one condition.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

Of course you can cap crit easily. By replacing most of your gear with either assassin, berserker or marauder gear, lul. So much sustain compared to what I had already and was perfectly fine with.

Considering no other class had any kind of buff even close to that and they do just fine in PVE, there is no reason to think this 'kills' Guardian in PVE for anyone.

@otto.5684 said:

@Leafstorm.1349 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

….Do you even PvP? You realize that's pretty much what this whole thing is about right? If you do and if you're even remotely decent, then you'd realize you're wrong in every aspect.

Good talk.

Do not argue with Obtena. However you respond Obtena will say he/she meant something else, you did not read what someone wrote 10-15 posts ago or some secret logic that only he/she and Anet understand.

Your assessment is pretty fair. Regardless of what % RI should be, as guardian stands right, there are no dps builds that can compete in P2 and beyond. What ever diversity song Anet is singing, it has nothing to do with reality. It will take minimum till May before there are any new changes. And even then, changes are not likely to work as intended cuz Anet does bother to test or understand the changes impact on existing builds.

Actually, he shouldn't respond to me if he can't be bothered to follow the conversation; I was replying to someone who was talking about PVE. If people were remotely decent as he claims, they wouldn't be crying about losing 25% crit rate in any game mode. This is the same dooffery when Guardians were crying about Pure of Voice getting fixed to convert one one condition.

“If people were remotely decent they would not be crying about losing 25% critical rate in any game game mode.” How can you describe this statement but a failed trolling attempt? It is funny, but only in its failures. It tries to claim that a major change to critical rating has no effect on player experience, which is mathematically false. Then you try to lump sum the poster and then guardian players as “cry babies,” cuz they do not agree with your position, which is not substantiated at all. Then you use an example of another trait that is garbage and no one uses as if this gives your “opinion” on the guardian players any legitimacy.

I will give you 3/10 on trolling attempt, only cuz it is unintentionally funny.

[Obtena.7952]

@otto.5684 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

Of course you can cap crit easily. By replacing most of your gear with either assassin, berserker or marauder gear, lul. So much sustain compared to what I had already and was perfectly fine with.

Considering no other class had any kind of buff even close to that and they do just fine in PVE, there is no reason to think this 'kills' Guardian in PVE for anyone.

@otto.5684 said:

@Leafstorm.1349 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Misquesh.9504 said:That crit nerf just killed the Guardian for me in PvE. No fun allowed I guess, unless you want to "pley with other pleyers" 24/7. Oh well, good thing I have all the other classes. I'll miss my gem aura sylvari guard tho.

Really? That's nonsense because you can still permanently cap crit rate stupidly easy in PVE while maintaining massive amounts of DPS and supplementing your sustain. In fact, the inability to dump precision is what holds you back from optimizing a build to do that.

The only barrier to actually do it is you, not the game.

….Do you even PvP? You realize that's pretty much what this whole thing is about right? If you do and if you're even remotely decent, then you'd realize you're wrong in every aspect.

Good talk.

Do not argue with Obtena. However you respond Obtena will say he/she meant something else, you did not read what someone wrote 10-15 posts ago or some secret logic that only he/she and Anet understand.

Your assessment is pretty fair. Regardless of what % RI should be, as guardian stands right, there are no dps builds that can compete in P2 and beyond. What ever diversity song Anet is singing, it has nothing to do with reality. It will take minimum till May before there are any new changes. And even then, changes are not likely to work as intended cuz Anet does bother to test or understand the changes impact on existing builds.

Actually, he shouldn't respond to me if he can't be bothered to follow the conversation; I was replying to someone who was talking about PVE. If people were remotely decent as he claims, they wouldn't be crying about losing 25% crit rate in any game mode. This is the same dooffery when Guardians were crying about Pure of Voice getting fixed to convert one one condition.

“If people were remotely decent they would not be crying about losing 25% critical rate in any game game mode.” How can you describe this statement but a failed trolling attempt?

I already explained it many times ... no other class needs a 50% crit buff crutch to be good in PVP. As I said, you don't realize it but if this 50% crit rate buff is so important to the class in PVP that it does terrible without it, you are justifying the need to nerf it, just like Pure of Voice.