Balance Notes Preview - Discussion

[Ragnarox.9601]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Yay they broke guardian.I'm so done with this game.

Yeah, they broke it when they made RI give 50% crit rate on retal a long time ago ... but you didn't have a problem with it then did you?

So if it was broken why did you use it then, and not mention in every post how is broken? and now when this was nerfed into oblivion you say it is broken? Man I am reading every post you make, its non constructive, with every nerf that comes there is you saying it was broken, so why are you playing this broken class then, abusing its powers for 2 years or you are just here to flame or troll?This nerf destroyed good builds that were not brokenly OP like some classes like thieves and mesmers are.

[Sorem.9157]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Sure it does. I guess you just didn't understand it. It's not a requirement for you to understand the sentence to know why Anet changed RI. Good thing.

I guess the moderators didn't enjoy my first post, it was a little bit too rude. I'm sorry, i'm gonna rewrite it in a more positive manner.

God, you're a beautiful being of light. Let's break it down by steps so your enormous and brilliant head can understand the point.

First, your difficulty in understanding the trait. Let me help you, beautiful being of light :) It does not provide FREE 50% chance, it only does so when you have retaliation. In order ot have reliable access to retaliation you need to run virtues or, at the very least, zeal (which is a crappo trait-line), unless you're playing Harrierbrand, which has it's own vulnerabilities (I'll get to it later).

Second. You see, Valor and Honor, which are Guardian's MAIN sources of sustain through traits provide absolutely ZERO retaliation. You see where i am going with this right? If you're planning on using Radiance line, you're very likely going to be forced to run either Zeal or Virtues (preferably virtues, most of the time) and that forces you to choose between running an elite specialization or some sort of sustain as the third trait line. You CANNOT have both.

THAT is why RI works on Guardian without breaking the class. The same concept does not apply to any other modifier. Yes the trait is strong. VERY STRONG. Pretty borken if you look at it isolated from the profession, if you want my honest opinion. But not when you look at context. You are forced to give up a lot in order to run it.

If a similar trait were avaiable to other classes, say mesmers or engineers, where they would have to choose between having sustain or picking an elite specialization, people probably wouldn't run it, unless it were for gimmick builds.

Third. Having the lowest HP is VERY MUCH relevant. You cannot simply overlook base health when some classes have 19k and others have 11k. We have to build with that in mind. Classes are balanced with that in mind. It is a fundamental feature of the class much like its core mechanic. The trait you're referring to, Force of Will, provides 300 Vitality (which still leaves Guardian health pool lower than at least half of the classes), but it is located at Honor. A traitline that, as i mentioned, does NOT provide retaliation, thus does not synergize with Radiance (Yes, Harrierbrand, i'll get to it). The reason Guardian had a low HP pool to begin with is that it was a class based around having a lot of toughness and a lot of healing at first. Now everybody has so much sustain that having different HP pools makes no sense, unless you balance with that in mind.

Now, Harrierbrand is a special case. It runs Radiance Honor and Firebrand and it works. Why? Boon Duration. It utilizes from 60 to 95% boon duration to aid in retaliation maintenance, plus it gets access to Mantra of Liberation, which also provides on demand retal which is not avaiable for many classes. The drawback is that you have to give up any toughness, precision and vitality in order to run it. Baseline the build has zero precision and runs at 4% crit chance and is 100% reliant on RI to provide the crit damage it needs to kill effectively. This nerf decimates the build. Also, it has no on demand invulnerables, no toughness outside shield and 11~13k base health pool, depending on your rune choice, which is fine. If it had more than that it would be broken (read above).

As you can see, RI works with Guardian for multiple reason, openning doors for build diversity without allowing it to be broken or too strong. The fact that you refuse to consider fundamental aspects of the profession, class mechanics, health pool and other traits shows just how ignorant you are. If your argument made any sense this game would be plaggued with Radiance DHs and Radiance FBs and Radiance Core Guardians running full tank builds on both PvP and WvW and being carried by RI.

The only people who would agree with your point of view are the ones that hover around 1200 rating and below or the ones that have never ever played Guardian properly and will look at that nerf and say "hey, sure, 50% crit chance for a trait seems a little bit too much, to hell with that."

Would you, beautiful being of light, please leave the building?

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Zephoid.4263 said:If 50% RI was unreasonable, its only because it looks so good in a vacuum. The rest of the traits for guard are pretty bad. It has one of the lowest % damage increase set of any of the classes in the game. Only DH's 20% on spear (comes with low uptime) brings it close.

From a pvp standpoint, I'd say quite the opposite is true. If you compare RI to other crit % increases on other classes, 50% is indeed overtuned. The top two examples that come to mind are Death Perception on core necro (a conditional +33% crit) and Roiling Mists on revenant (essentially perma +20% crit).

Roiling Mists is the most comparable example. If we take a GM trait that gives essentially +20% crit at all times, what's fair for another class that can only maintain +crit when retal is up (which isn't perma)? I'd say maybe 25-35%, but certainly not 50%. I think nerfing RI down to 25% is a bit too much but I'd prefer this rather than keeping it at 50%.

[Sorem.9157]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:If 50% RI was unreasonable, its only because it looks so good in a vacuum. The rest of the traits for guard are pretty bad. It has one of the lowest % damage increase set of any of the classes in the game. Only DH's 20% on spear (comes with low uptime) brings it close.

From a pvp standpoint, I'd say quite the opposite is true. If you compare RI to other crit % increases on other classes, 50% is indeed overtuned. The top two examples that come to mind are Death Perception on core necro (a conditional +33% crit) and Roiling Mists on revenant (essentially perma +20% crit).

Roiling Mists is the most comparable example. If we take a GM trait that gives essentially +20% crit at all times, what's fair for another class that can only maintain +crit when retal is up (which isn't perma)? I'd say maybe 25-35%, but certainly not 50%. I think nerfing RI down to 25% is a bit too much but I'd prefer this rather than keeping it at 50%.

Far from comparable, as Necro can have access to Shroud without having to build for it and Revenants have access to Fury without having to build for it. These are things that are designed within the spec and that is why they are weaker than Guardian's version of the trait.

The result is the builds that we have today, pre-patch, which are honestly fair. Guardian is more simplistic with a stronger trait and the other builds are more complex with stronger mechanics and a weaker trait. The only way your argument could possibly make sense is if Core Guardian was overtunned, which it isn't.

If Guardian had free access to Retaliation all you would see is Radiance DH, but because we have to build for it, we are forced to pair it with Core to free up the trait line. Read my post above for clarification.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@Sorem.9157 said:

Far from comparable, as Necro can have access to Shroud without having to build for it and Revenants have access to Fury without having to build for it. These are things that are designed within the spec and that is why they are weaker than Guardian's version of the trait.

The result is the builds that we have today, pre-patch, which are honestly fair. Guardian is more simplistic with a stronger trait and the other builds are more complex with stronger mechanics and a weaker trait. The only way your argument could possibly make sense is if Core Guardian was overtunned, which it isn't.

If Guardian had free access to Retaliation all you would see is Radiance DH, but because we have to build for it, we are forced to pair it with Core to free up the trait line. Read my post above for clarification.

Necro does not have access to shroud at all times. Shroud is dependent upon life-force build up and also cannot be accessed for a while after exiting shroud.

Rev essentially DOES get +20% crit chance at all times (even with 0 boon dura, maintaining perma fury is effortless) with RM.

Taking RM to be the standard that + crit % chance traits should be based on, I think +50% crit while retal is up is a bit on the overtuned side (I'm just talking about raw numbers here, not build viability which I'll get to). Sure, core guard cannot maintain high retal uptime, but they are capable of maintaining retal for 20 seconds-straight if they so choose and/or easily have access to retal every time they wish to go in for a burst. This is key here since core guard isn't a bruiser build and does its damage in bursts rather than dpsing someone down. This means that while certainly conditional, core guard's retal uptime is sufficient such that having perma +50% crit vs. +50% crit only when retal is up doesn't make much of a difference in terms of being able to burst their targets down.

Now then, build viability: I absolutely agree with you that core guard is not overtuned. I played it myself 2 seasons after they changed RI to what it is now and loved the build. It's very straight-forward and honestly feels like a slower glint/shiro rev with a very satisfying burst. It's shortcomings though most certainly balance the build.

You have to concede though that for a certain population of players in pvp, the ability of core guard to one-shot people is an enormous problem. Focus 5 + MB + JI + smite condi + traited smite condi alltogether can 1-shot anyone who doesn't see the core-guard coming and this is a burst that from the moment JI strikes the opponent, until the final smite-condi from the heal is procced is executed in all about 0.1 to 0.2 seconds. It's impossible to react to.

Additionally, if you play core-guard to its maximum potential, it has excellent sustain while still maintaining excellent burst. It becomes even more pronounced in team fights where you have a support to heal and apply protection to the guard.

Personally I don't think that certain population of pvp players (the casuals/bronze/silvers) should be catered to but it's something Anet always does. This game isn't only made for pros, so they have to balance not only the skill ceiling but the skill floor.

[Sorem.9157]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:

Far from comparable, as Necro can have access to Shroud without having to build for it and Revenants have access to Fury without having to build for it. These are things that are designed within the spec and that is why they are weaker than Guardian's version of the trait.

The result is the builds that we have today, pre-patch, which are honestly fair. Guardian is more simplistic with a stronger trait and the other builds are more complex with stronger mechanics and a weaker trait. The only way your argument could possibly make sense is if Core Guardian was overtunned, which it isn't.

If Guardian had free access to Retaliation all you would see is Radiance DH, but because we have to build for it, we are forced to pair it with Core to free up the trait line. Read my post above for clarification.

Necro does not have access to shroud at all times. Shroud is dependent upon life-force build up and also cannot be accessed for a while after exiting shroud.

Rev essentially DOES get +20% crit chance at all times (even with 0 boon dura, maintaining perma fury is effortless) with RM.

Taking RM to be the standard that + crit % chance traits should be based on, I think +50% crit while retal is up is a bit on the overtuned side (I'm just talking about raw numbers here, not build viability which I'll get to). Sure, core guard cannot maintain high retal uptime, but they are capable of maintaining retal for 20 seconds-straight if they so choose and/or easily have access to retal every time they wish to go in for a burst. This is key here since core guard isn't a bruiser build and does its damage in bursts rather than dpsing someone down. This means that while certainly conditional, core guard's retal uptime is sufficient such that having perma +50% crit vs. +50% crit only when retal is up doesn't make much of a difference in terms of being able to burst their targets down.

Now then, build viability: I absolutely agree with you that core guard is not overtuned. I played it myself 2 seasons after they changed RI to what it is now and loved the build. It's very straight-forward and honestly feels like a slower glint/shiro rev with a very satisfying burst. It's shortcomings though most certainly balance the build.

You have to concede though that for a certain population of players in pvp, the ability of core guard to one-shot people is an enormous problem. Focus 5 + MB + JI + smite condi + traited smite condi alltogether can 1-shot anyone who doesn't see the core-guard coming and this is a burst that from the moment JI strikes the opponent, until the final smite-condi from the heal is procced is executed in all about 0.1 to 0.2 seconds. It's impossible to react to.

Additionally, if you play core-guard to its maximum potential, it has excellent sustain while still maintaining excellent burst. It becomes even more pronounced in team fights where you have a support to heal and apply protection to the guard.

Personally I don't think that certain population of pvp players (the casuals/bronze/silvers) should be catered to but it's something Anet always does. This game isn't only made for pros, so they have to balance not only the skill ceiling but the skill floor.

What i meant is not that They can maintain the buff at all times, but that they do not have to take additional traitlines in order to make the buffs work. Necros will always have access to shroud, doesn't matter which traits or utilities they pick. If you're traiting for RI, chances are you are probably also equipping virtues or zeal or have a concentration build.

Yes, we can agree on how core Guardian dominates on lower tiers, i have been saying that since the patch notes were released but this nerf is not the correct way to adress that. This nerf will take Core Guard out of the spectrum in both lower tiers and higher tiers, not to mention what it will do to other great offmeta builds such as Radiance Firebrand or the PvE repercutions. It isn't a smart change, it is full of colateral damage and will hit the Guardian in many many places rather than just reducing the effectiveness of Core Guardian on low/mid tiers.

[otto.5684]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@Zephoid.4263 said:If 50% RI was unreasonable, its only because it looks so good in a vacuum. The rest of the traits for guard are pretty bad. It has one of the lowest % damage increase set of any of the classes in the game. Only DH's 20% on spear (comes with low uptime) brings it close.

From a pvp standpoint, I'd say quite the opposite is true. If you compare RI to other crit % increases on other classes, 50% is indeed overtuned. The top two examples that come to mind are Death Perception on core necro (a conditional +33% crit) and Roiling Mists on revenant (essentially perma +20% crit).

Roiling Mists is the most comparable example. If we take a GM trait that gives essentially +20% crit at all times, what's fair for another class that can only maintain +crit when retal is up (which isn't perma)? I'd say maybe 25-35%, but certainly not 50%. I think nerfing RI down to 25% is a bit too much but I'd prefer this rather than keeping it at 50%.

Did you factor in that herald has 6.5k more HP and perm swiftness in that comparison? Get my guardian base hp of 15k and options that do not force me to use Lynx and I have no issue in nerfing RI.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@"Sorem.9157" said:

What i meant is not that They can maintain the buff at all times, but that they do not have to take additional traitlines in order to make the buffs work. Necros will always have access to shroud, doesn't matter which traits or utilities they pick. If you're traiting for RI, chances are you are probably also equipping virtues or zeal or have a concentration build.

Yes, we can agree on how core Guardian dominates on lower tiers, i have been saying that since the patch notes were released but this nerf is not the correct way to adress that. This nerf will take Core Guard out of the spectrum in both lower tiers and higher tiers, not to mention what it will do to other great offmeta builds such as Radiance Firebrand or the PvE repercutions. It isn't a smart change, it is full of colateral damage and will hit the Guardian in many many places rather than just reducing the effectiveness of Core Guardian on low/mid tiers.

Sure. I'm just trying to reason through why Anet went with this nerf (instead of nerfing certain weapon skills) based on their provided statement in those patch notes. It's also possible that their intention IS to killoff radiance firebrand with this nerf since they could want FB to serve its "expected" role. You could possibly infer this based on their comments made in the necro section of those patch notes ("we're looking at each of its elite specializations and moving them more toward their expected roles.") This is essentially pigeon-holing specializations into one or very few builds which is a very bad move imo (less build diversity is no bueno) but if it's something they plan on doing to all classes, it's not fair to just scream out about it on guard.

[Bunny.9834]

This isn't enough nerfs to the Guardian. ANET needs to tone the Firebrand by a LOT. Way too much boon spam and blocks and invul still.

[Sorem.9157]

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"Sorem.9157" said:

What i meant is not that They can maintain the buff at all times, but that they do not have to take additional traitlines in order to make the buffs work. Necros will always have access to shroud, doesn't matter which traits or utilities they pick. If you're traiting for RI, chances are you are probably also equipping virtues or zeal or have a concentration build.

Yes, we can agree on how core Guardian dominates on lower tiers, i have been saying that since the patch notes were released but this nerf is not the correct way to adress that. This nerf will take Core Guard out of the spectrum in both lower tiers and higher tiers, not to mention what it will do to other great offmeta builds such as Radiance Firebrand or the PvE repercutions. It isn't a smart change, it is full of colateral damage and will hit the Guardian in many many places rather than just reducing the effectiveness of Core Guardian on low/mid tiers.

Sure. I'm just trying to reason through why Anet went with this nerf (instead of nerfing certain weapon skills) based on their provided statement in those patch notes. It's also possible that their intention IS to killoff radiance firebrand with this nerf since they could want FB to serve its "expected" role. You could possibly infer this based on their comments made in the necro section of those patch notes ("we're looking at each of its elite specializations and moving them more toward their expected roles.") This is essentially pigeon-holing specializations into one or very few builds which is a very bad move imo (less build diversity is no bueno) but if it's something they plan on doing to all classes, it's not fair to just scream out about it on guard.

Firebrand is meant to be an aggressive support. Otherwise it wouldn't be so packed with quickness and burn habilities. This isn't its "expected" role, it is also something the community created. If you ask me, Harrierbrand is much closer to what Firebrand was supposed to be than Mantra Bunker ever will be. The only difference is that it uses power damage instead of burn damage.

No matter how you look at it, it makes no sense.

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:This isn't enough nerfs to the Guardian. ANET needs to tone the Firebrand by a LOT. Way too much boon spam and blocks and invul still.

Are you talking about Mantra Bunker? It barely sustains any boons when you compare it to Mirage, Holosmith and Soulbeast. Mantra Bunker is only optimal in coordinated teams, otherwise it is hell to run it on solo queue. Why do you think there aren't many of them even when you start to get to higher tier matches?

Trust me, i've tried.

[SunTzu.4513]

So after raeding all the doom and gloom here i have to ask for what means this for PvE? I'm always running on zerker gear. Do i get it right if i'm on my own in the ow the RI nerf will be a DPS loss on my DH? I also love to play mediguard if i'm solo in the OW or Power GS Guard in PUG fractals. Will those builds no longer viable to higher contend?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@SunTzu.4513 said:So after raeding all the doom and gloom here i have to ask for what means this for PvE? I'm always running on zerker gear. Do i get it right if i'm on my own in the ow the RI nerf will be a DPS loss on my DH? I also love to play mediguard if i'm solo in the OW or Power GS Guard in PUG fractals. Will those builds no longer viable to higher contend?

Nope. With the same trait setup in zerker, you'll still go over 100% crit chance with the new traits. You won't notice a thing. It's only the Valkyrie builds that will notice a nerf.

[otto.5684]

@DragonSlayer.1087 said:This isn't enough nerfs to the Guardian. ANET needs to tone the Firebrand by a LOT. Way too much boon spam and blocks and invul still.

I agree with you. FB support is still the most broken thing in sPvP. But it was not touched. Why?! I have no idea. However, since dps guardian in PvP will be dead, you will see more support FBs. Enjoy and thank Anet.

@Arcaedus.7290 said:

@"Sorem.9157" said:

What i meant is not that They can maintain the buff at all times, but that they do not have to take additional traitlines in order to make the buffs work. Necros will always have access to shroud, doesn't matter which traits or utilities they pick. If you're traiting for RI, chances are you are probably also equipping virtues or zeal or have a concentration build.

Yes, we can agree on how core Guardian dominates on lower tiers, i have been saying that since the patch notes were released but this nerf is not the correct way to adress that. This nerf will take Core Guard out of the spectrum in both lower tiers and higher tiers, not to mention what it will do to other great offmeta builds such as Radiance Firebrand or the PvE repercutions. It isn't a smart change, it is full of colateral damage and will hit the Guardian in many many places rather than just reducing the effectiveness of Core Guardian on low/mid tiers.

Sure. I'm just trying to reason through why Anet went with this nerf (instead of nerfing certain weapon skills) based on their provided statement in those patch notes. It's also possible that their intention IS to killoff radiance firebrand with this nerf since they could want FB to serve its "expected" role. You could possibly infer this based on their comments made in the necro section of those patch notes ("we're looking at each of its elite specializations and moving them more toward their expected roles.") This is essentially pigeon-holing specializations into one or very few builds which is a very bad move imo (less build diversity is no bueno) but if it's something they plan on doing to all classes, it's not fair to just scream out about it on guard.

If that was the goal, why did they nerf a trait primarily utilized by core and DH power builds? Also, at least according to Anet written paragraph, the nerf had nothing to with either FB or DH, but some crap regarding trait diversity that did not make any fucking sense, considering that the other 2 traits have uses, but not in power build. If we go based on that Anet missed the mark by a mile and ended up nerfing the only viable dps build in PvP. Genius.

[Etterwyn.5263]

@SunTzu.4513 said:So after raeding all the doom and gloom here i have to ask for what means this for PvE? I'm always running on zerker gear. Do i get it right if i'm on my own in the ow the RI nerf will be a DPS loss on my DH? I also love to play mediguard if i'm solo in the OW or Power GS Guard in PUG fractals. Will those builds no longer viable to higher contend?

You can mix and match gear in PVE. PVP is forced to one Stat combination.

[Obtena.7952]

@Sorem.9157 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Sure it does. I guess you just didn't understand it. It's not a requirement for you to understand the sentence to know why Anet changed RI. Good thing.

I guess the moderators didn't enjoy my first post, it was a little bit too rude. I'm sorry, i'm gonna rewrite it in a more positive manner.

God, you're a beautiful being of light. Let's break it down by steps so your enormous and brilliant head can understand the point.

First, your difficulty in understanding the trait. Let me help you, beautiful being of light :) It does not provide FREE 50% chance, it only does so when you have retaliation. In order ot have reliable access to retaliation you need to run virtues or, at the very least, zeal (which is a crappo trait-line), unless you're playing Harrierbrand, which has it's own vulnerabilities (I'll get to it later).

Second. You see, Valor and Honor, which are Guardian's MAIN sources of sustain through traits provide absolutely ZERO retaliation. You see where i am going with this right? If you're planning on using Radiance line, you're very likely going to be forced to run either Zeal or Virtues (preferably virtues, most of the time) and that forces you to choose between running an elite specialization or some sort of sustain as the third trait line. You CANNOT have both.

THAT is why RI works on Guardian without breaking the class. The same concept does not apply to any other modifier. Yes the trait is strong. VERY STRONG. Pretty borken if you look at it isolated from the profession, if you want my honest opinion. But not when you look at context. You are forced to give up a lot in order to run it.

If a similar trait were avaiable to other classes, say mesmers or engineers, where they would have to choose between having sustain or picking an elite specialization, people probably wouldn't run it, unless it were for gimmick builds.

Third. Having the lowest HP is VERY MUCH relevant. You cannot simply overlook base health when some classes have 19k and others have 11k. We have to build with that in mind. Classes are balanced with that in mind. It is a fundamental feature of the class much like its core mechanic. The trait you're referring to, Force of Will, provides 300 Vitality (which still leaves Guardian health pool lower than at least half of the classes), but it is located at Honor. A traitline that, as i mentioned, does NOT provide retaliation, thus does not synergize with Radiance (Yes, Harrierbrand, i'll get to it). The reason Guardian had a low HP pool to begin with is that it was a class based around having a lot of toughness and a lot of healing at first. Now everybody has so much sustain that having different HP pools makes no sense, unless you balance with that in mind.

Now, Harrierbrand is a special case. It runs Radiance Honor and Firebrand and it works. Why? Boon Duration. It utilizes from 60 to 95% boon duration to aid in retaliation maintenance, plus it gets access to Mantra of Liberation, which also provides on demand retal which is not avaiable for many classes. The drawback is that you have to give up any toughness, precision and vitality in order to run it. Baseline the build has zero precision and runs at 4% crit chance and is 100% reliant on RI to provide the crit damage it needs to kill effectively. This nerf decimates the build. Also, it has no on demand invulnerables, no toughness outside shield and 11~13k base health pool, depending on your rune choice, which is fine. If it had more than that it would be broken (read above).

As you can see, RI works with Guardian for multiple reason, openning doors for build diversity without allowing it to be broken or too strong. The fact that you refuse to consider fundamental aspects of the profession, class mechanics, health pool and other traits shows just how ignorant you are. If your argument made any sense this game would be plaggued with Radiance DHs and Radiance FBs and Radiance Core Guardians running full tank builds on both PvP and WvW and being carried by RI.

The only people who would agree with your point of view are the ones that hover around 1200 rating and below or the ones that have never ever played Guardian properly and will look at that nerf and say "hey, sure, 50% crit chance for a trait seems a little bit too much, to hell with that."

RI wasn't changed because it broke the class, so reasoning why it doesn't has little relevance. Anet's explanation was related to the value of traits in that GM column, as well as the strength of RI itself. It was a reasonable explanation and we have seen similar behaviour of changes like this to expand player's choices in the past.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ragnarox.9601 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@ReaverKane.7598 said:Yay they broke guardian.I'm so done with this game.

Yeah, they broke it when they made RI give 50% crit rate on retal a long time ago ... but you didn't have a problem with it then did you?

So if it was broken why did you use it then, and not mention in every post how is broken? and now when this was nerfed into oblivion you say it is broken? Man I am reading every post you make, its non constructive, with every nerf that comes there is you saying it was broken, so why are you playing this broken class then, abusing its powers for 2 years or you are just here to flame or troll?This nerf destroyed good builds that were not brokenly OP like some classes like thieves and mesmers are.

It's irrevelant how or if I used the trait to whether it's unreasonable or not, or if Anet changes it.

[Arcaedus.7290]

@otto.5684 said:

If that was the goal, why did they nerf a trait primarily utilized by core and DH power builds? Also, at least according to Anet written paragraph, the nerf had nothing to with either FB or DH, but some kitten regarding trait diversity that did not make any kitten sense, considering that the other 2 traits have uses, but not in power build. If we go based on that Anet missed the mark by a mile and ended up nerfing the only viable dps build in PvP. Genius.

FBs use RI more than DH do, but that's neither here nor there.

You're right that their stated reason for nerfing RI doesn't really provide a great justification for nerfing it. I'm willing to bet though that the reasons they provided are not their only reasons for nerfing RI seeing as they nerfed it in pve as well (which was totally unnecessary if this was a pvp-core guard problem).

[Sorem.9157]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Sure it does. I guess you just didn't understand it. It's not a requirement for you to understand the sentence to know why Anet changed RI. Good thing.

I guess the moderators didn't enjoy my first post, it was a little bit too rude. I'm sorry, i'm gonna rewrite it in a more positive manner.

God, you're a beautiful being of light. Let's break it down by steps so your enormous and brilliant head can understand the point.

First, your difficulty in understanding the trait. Let me help you, beautiful being of light :) It does not provide FREE 50% chance, it only does so when you have retaliation. In order ot have reliable access to retaliation you need to run virtues or, at the very least, zeal (which is a crappo trait-line), unless you're playing Harrierbrand, which has it's own vulnerabilities (I'll get to it later).

Second. You see, Valor and Honor, which are Guardian's MAIN sources of sustain through traits provide absolutely ZERO retaliation. You see where i am going with this right? If you're planning on using Radiance line, you're very likely going to be forced to run either Zeal or Virtues (preferably virtues, most of the time) and that forces you to choose between running an elite specialization or some sort of sustain as the third trait line. You CANNOT have both.

THAT is why RI works on Guardian without breaking the class. The same concept does not apply to any other modifier. Yes the trait is strong. VERY STRONG. Pretty borken if you look at it isolated from the profession, if you want my honest opinion. But not when you look at context. You are forced to give up a lot in order to run it.

If a similar trait were avaiable to other classes, say mesmers or engineers, where they would have to choose between having sustain or picking an elite specialization, people probably wouldn't run it, unless it were for gimmick builds.

Third. Having the lowest HP is VERY MUCH relevant. You cannot simply overlook base health when some classes have 19k and others have 11k. We have to build with that in mind. Classes are balanced with that in mind. It is a fundamental feature of the class much like its core mechanic. The trait you're referring to, Force of Will, provides 300 Vitality (which still leaves Guardian health pool lower than at least half of the classes), but it is located at Honor. A traitline that, as i mentioned, does NOT provide retaliation, thus does not synergize with Radiance (Yes, Harrierbrand, i'll get to it). The reason Guardian had a low HP pool to begin with is that it was a class based around having a lot of toughness and a lot of healing at first. Now everybody has so much sustain that having different HP pools makes no sense, unless you balance with that in mind.

Now, Harrierbrand is a special case. It runs Radiance Honor and Firebrand and it works. Why? Boon Duration. It utilizes from 60 to 95% boon duration to aid in retaliation maintenance, plus it gets access to Mantra of Liberation, which also provides on demand retal which is not avaiable for many classes. The drawback is that you have to give up any toughness, precision and vitality in order to run it. Baseline the build has zero precision and runs at 4% crit chance and is 100% reliant on RI to provide the crit damage it needs to kill effectively. This nerf decimates the build. Also, it has no on demand invulnerables, no toughness outside shield and 11~13k base health pool, depending on your rune choice, which is fine. If it had more than that it would be broken (read above).

As you can see, RI works with Guardian for multiple reason, openning doors for build diversity without allowing it to be broken or too strong. The fact that you refuse to consider fundamental aspects of the profession, class mechanics, health pool and other traits shows just how ignorant you are. If your argument made any sense this game would be plaggued with Radiance DHs and Radiance FBs and Radiance Core Guardians running full tank builds on both PvP and WvW and being carried by RI.

The only people who would agree with your point of view are the ones that hover around 1200 rating and below or the ones that have never ever played Guardian properly and will look at that nerf and say "hey, sure, 50% crit chance for a trait seems a little bit too much, to hell with that."

RI wasn't changed because it broke the class, so reasoning why it doesn't has little relevance. Anet's explanation was related to the value of traits in that GM column, as well as the strength of RI itself. It was a reasonable explanation and we have seen similar behaviour of changes like this to expand player's choices in the past.

ArenaNet's argument makes zero sense. They are advocating for build diversity. This nerf reduces it.You've already dodged from your primal point clearly with the sole objetive of trying to win the discussion. You already moved from the trait was broken to it being limiting to build diversity. Can you please try to be consistent with your own point?

We are not supposed to simply take what ArenaNet says for the absolute truth. They are humans, they make mistakes, many many mistakes, as the past have shown us. You can't take the argument "ArenaNet said so" and use it to justify your point.

[Obtena.7952]

No, it does make sense. If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. That's one of a few reasons why RI is getting a nerf and the other two traits got love. Diversity is the result of choice, not appealing to meta builds and high performance.

The fact is that there are a few reasons RI change and they are ALL consistent with my point. Just because you don't like the fact many reasons for the change exist doesn't mean you can accuse me of trying to dodge something. RI was wrong on LOTS of levels. You can't argue all of them away even if you wanted to.

[Sorem.9157]

@"Obtena.7952" said:No, it does make sense. If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. That's one of a few reasons why RI is getting a nerf and the other two traits got love. Diversity is the result of choice, not appealing to meta builds and high performance.

The fact is that there are a few reasons RI change and they are ALL consistent with my point. Just because you don't like the fact many reasons for the change exist doesn't mean you can accuse me of trying to dodge something. RI was wrong on LOTS of levels. You can't argue all of them away even if you wanted to.

"If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. "

Why not? I understand it would be better if we had 3 viable choices, or even more, spread across different traitlines, but all the GM traits have their own niche and RI was not competing with any of them. Perhaps PI but PI has it's niche use which will stay the same.

You keep saying you can't achieve balance with RI there but how will balance change with this nerf? You think there are going to be a larger variety of Guardian builds with this nerf? What? You think the other GMs buffs will open up new builds? Give me examples then. How does Amplified Wrath and Perfect Inscriptions buffs alter any kind of variety in order to make up for all the builds we lose with the RI nerf?

Do you, from the bottom of your heart, believe that taking away the core trait that made so many builds viable will be good for Guardian's Diversity? How? You have not given one practical example of such other than simple statements such "If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits.".

[Obtena.7952]

@Sorem.9157 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:No, it does make sense. If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. That's one of a few reasons why RI is getting a nerf and the other two traits got love. Diversity is the result of choice, not appealing to meta builds and high performance.

The fact is that there are a few reasons RI change and they are ALL consistent with my point. Just because you don't like the fact many reasons for the change exist doesn't mean you can accuse me of trying to dodge something. RI was wrong on LOTS of levels. You can't argue all of them away even if you wanted to.

"If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. "

Why not? I understand it would be better if we had 3 viable choices, or even more, spread across different traitlines, but all the GM traits have their own niche and RI was not competing with any of them.

Exactly ... RI didn't COMPETE with the other traits because it was so good. If by default one trait is so good that you take it all the time, there isn't any question how build diversity is negatively affected by that single traits strength.

I also like how you're telling me things I never said. It's cute. I never said balance can't be achieved with RI there. I said it's OP for sure and to me, that's reason enough for the change. Personally, I think Anet's 'diversity' claim is a little weak ... I think it would have been enough just to buff the other two to appropriate levels and leave it at that if this was JUST a problem with diversity, but it's not. RI by itself as a trait was too much at 50%.

[otto.5684]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:No, it does make sense. If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. That's one of a few reasons why RI is getting a nerf and the other two traits got love. Diversity is the result of choice, not appealing to meta builds and high performance.

The fact is that there are a few reasons RI change and they are ALL consistent with my point. Just because you don't like the fact many reasons for the change exist doesn't mean you can accuse me of trying to dodge something. RI was wrong on LOTS of levels. You can't argue all of them away even if you wanted to.

"If you want to promote build diversity, you can't have a broken trait like RI in your roster beside two other underperforming traits. "

Why not? I understand it would be better if we had 3 viable choices, or even more, spread across different traitlines, but all the GM traits have their own niche and RI was not competing with any of them.

Exactly ... RI didn't COMPETE with the other traits because it was so good. If by default one trait is so good that you take it all the time, there isn't any question how build diversity is negatively affected by that single traits strength.

I also like how you're telling me things I never said. It's cute. I never said balance can't be achieved with RI there. I said it's OP for sure and to me, that's reason enough for the change. Personally, I think Anet's 'diversity' claim is a little weak ... I think it would have been enough just to buff the other two to appropriate levels and leave it at that if this was JUST a problem with diversity, but it's not. RI by itself as a trait was too much at 50%.

This is absolutely false. And to repeat for the millionth time, RI is used in power builds, AW in condi builds and PI in some support builds. This is how it currently is and will remain after the patch. Even if RI was nerfed to 10% it would still Ramon that way. NOTHING will change for guardian as whole or build diversity beside core guardian being weaker in PvP.

This whole diversity crap discussion is beyond pointless.

The funniest thing is among guardian 7 trait lines radiance was the only line where all three major GM traits are functional and in use. Talk about diversity LMAO.

[Ryou.2398]

@Sorem.9157 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Sure it does. I guess you just didn't understand it. It's not a requirement for you to understand the sentence to know why Anet changed RI. Good thing.

I guess the moderators didn't enjoy my first post, it was a little bit too rude. I'm sorry, i'm gonna rewrite it in a more positive manner.

God, you're a beautiful being of light. Let's break it down by steps so your enormous and brilliant head can understand the point.

First, your difficulty in understanding the trait. Let me help you, beautiful being of light :) It does not provide FREE 50% chance, it only does so when you have retaliation. In order ot have reliable access to retaliation you need to run virtues or, at the very least, zeal (which is a crappo trait-line), unless you're playing Harrierbrand, which has it's own vulnerabilities (I'll get to it later).

Second. You see, Valor and Honor, which are Guardian's MAIN sources of sustain through traits provide absolutely ZERO retaliation. You see where i am going with this right? If you're planning on using Radiance line, you're very likely going to be forced to run either Zeal or Virtues (preferably virtues, most of the time) and that forces you to choose between running an elite specialization or some sort of sustain as the third trait line. You CANNOT have both.

THAT is why RI works on Guardian without breaking the class. The same concept does not apply to any other modifier. Yes the trait is strong. VERY STRONG. Pretty borken if you look at it isolated from the profession, if you want my honest opinion. But not when you look at context. You are forced to give up a lot in order to run it.

If a similar trait were avaiable to other classes, say mesmers or engineers, where they would have to choose between having sustain or picking an elite specialization, people probably wouldn't run it, unless it were for gimmick builds.

Third. Having the lowest HP is VERY MUCH relevant. You cannot simply overlook base health when some classes have 19k and others have 11k. We have to build with that in mind. Classes are balanced with that in mind. It is a fundamental feature of the class much like its core mechanic. The trait you're referring to, Force of Will, provides 300 Vitality (which still leaves Guardian health pool lower than at least half of the classes), but it is located at Honor. A traitline that, as i mentioned, does NOT provide retaliation, thus does not synergize with Radiance (Yes, Harrierbrand, i'll get to it). The reason Guardian had a low HP pool to begin with is that it was a class based around having a lot of toughness and a lot of healing at first. Now everybody has so much sustain that having different HP pools makes no sense, unless you balance with that in mind.

Now, Harrierbrand is a special case. It runs Radiance Honor and Firebrand and it works. Why? Boon Duration. It utilizes from 60 to 95% boon duration to aid in retaliation maintenance, plus it gets access to Mantra of Liberation, which also provides on demand retal which is not avaiable for many classes. The drawback is that you have to give up any toughness, precision and vitality in order to run it. Baseline the build has zero precision and runs at 4% crit chance and is 100% reliant on RI to provide the crit damage it needs to kill effectively. This nerf decimates the build. Also, it has no on demand invulnerables, no toughness outside shield and 11~13k base health pool, depending on your rune choice, which is fine. If it had more than that it would be broken (read above).

As you can see, RI works with Guardian for multiple reason, openning doors for build diversity without allowing it to be broken or too strong. The fact that you refuse to consider fundamental aspects of the profession, class mechanics, health pool and other traits shows just how ignorant you are. If your argument made any sense this game would be plaggued with Radiance DHs and Radiance FBs and Radiance Core Guardians running full tank builds on both PvP and WvW and being carried by RI.

The only people who would agree with your point of view are the ones that hover around 1200 rating and below or the ones that have never ever played Guardian properly and will look at that nerf and say "hey, sure, 50% crit chance for a trait seems a little bit too much, to hell with that."

Would you, beautiful being of light, please leave the building?

Claps bravo!

[Ryou.2398]

@Sorem.9157 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Sorem.9157 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Sure it does. I guess you just didn't understand it. It's not a requirement for you to understand the sentence to know why Anet changed RI. Good thing.

I guess the moderators didn't enjoy my first post, it was a little bit too rude. I'm sorry, i'm gonna rewrite it in a more positive manner.

God, you're a beautiful being of light. Let's break it down by steps so your enormous and brilliant head can understand the point.

First, your difficulty in understanding the trait. Let me help you, beautiful being of light :) It does not provide FREE 50% chance, it only does so when you have retaliation. In order ot have reliable access to retaliation you need to run virtues or, at the very least, zeal (which is a crappo trait-line), unless you're playing Harrierbrand, which has it's own vulnerabilities (I'll get to it later).

Second. You see, Valor and Honor, which are Guardian's MAIN sources of sustain through traits provide absolutely ZERO retaliation. You see where i am going with this right? If you're planning on using Radiance line, you're very likely going to be forced to run either Zeal or Virtues (preferably virtues, most of the time) and that forces you to choose between running an elite specialization or some sort of sustain as the third trait line. You CANNOT have both.

THAT is why RI works on Guardian without breaking the class. The same concept does not apply to any other modifier. Yes the trait is strong. VERY STRONG. Pretty borken if you look at it isolated from the profession, if you want my honest opinion. But not when you look at context. You are forced to give up a lot in order to run it.

If a similar trait were avaiable to other classes, say mesmers or engineers, where they would have to choose between having sustain or picking an elite specialization, people probably wouldn't run it, unless it were for gimmick builds.

Third. Having the lowest HP is VERY MUCH relevant. You cannot simply overlook base health when some classes have 19k and others have 11k. We have to build with that in mind. Classes are balanced with that in mind. It is a fundamental feature of the class much like its core mechanic. The trait you're referring to, Force of Will, provides 300 Vitality (which still leaves Guardian health pool lower than at least half of the classes), but it is located at Honor. A traitline that, as i mentioned, does NOT provide retaliation, thus does not synergize with Radiance (Yes, Harrierbrand, i'll get to it). The reason Guardian had a low HP pool to begin with is that it was a class based around having a lot of toughness and a lot of healing at first. Now everybody has so much sustain that having different HP pools makes no sense, unless you balance with that in mind.

Now, Harrierbrand is a special case. It runs Radiance Honor and Firebrand and it works. Why? Boon Duration. It utilizes from 60 to 95% boon duration to aid in retaliation maintenance, plus it gets access to Mantra of Liberation, which also provides on demand retal which is not avaiable for many classes. The drawback is that you have to give up any toughness, precision and vitality in order to run it. Baseline the build has zero precision and runs at 4% crit chance and is 100% reliant on RI to provide the crit damage it needs to kill effectively. This nerf decimates the build. Also, it has no on demand invulnerables, no toughness outside shield and 11~13k base health pool, depending on your rune choice, which is fine. If it had more than that it would be broken (read above).

As you can see, RI works with Guardian for multiple reason, openning doors for build diversity without allowing it to be broken or too strong. The fact that you refuse to consider fundamental aspects of the profession, class mechanics, health pool and other traits shows just how ignorant you are. If your argument made any sense this game would be plaggued with Radiance DHs and Radiance FBs and Radiance Core Guardians running full tank builds on both PvP and WvW and being carried by RI.

The only people who would agree with your point of view are the ones that hover around 1200 rating and below or the ones that have never ever played Guardian properly and will look at that nerf and say "hey, sure, 50% crit chance for a trait seems a little bit too much, to hell with that."

RI wasn't changed because it broke the class, so reasoning why it doesn't has little relevance. Anet's explanation was related to the value of traits in that GM column, as well as the strength of RI itself. It was a reasonable explanation and we have seen similar behaviour of changes like this to expand player's choices in the past.

ArenaNet's argument makes zero sense. They are advocating for build diversity. This nerf reduces it.You've already dodged from your primal point clearly with the sole objetive of trying to win the discussion. You already moved from the trait was broken to it being limiting to build diversity. Can you please try to be consistent with your own point?

We are not supposed to simply take what ArenaNet says for the absolute truth. They are humans, they make mistakes, many many mistakes, as the past have shown us. You can't take the argument "ArenaNet said so" and use it to justify your point.

I couldnt agree more, anyone who saids otherwise are to obvious in what they are doing.

[Obtena.7952]

As I already said, there are lots of reasons to nerf RI and I don't think diversity is even the best one.

PI is used in some support builds? SW in condi? Sort of, maybe ... I don't think it's always a foregone conclusion, but let's get something clear here; just because certain traits are typically used in certain builds doesn't mean we have a diverse range of useful builds that's going down the toilet because of RI changes. The last time I saw someone promote a strong signet load up with PI as part of the 'diverse' toolkit on some guardian build was never. The amount of support signets give a group was pretty sad and frankly ... it still will be even after the change. I'm not convinced most 'support' builds use PI because it's not support, it's just enhanced passive effects on Guardian with some typical things like CC or whatever.

The real point here is that if PI is used for support (or any) builds, it will more likely get used as such now with the changes.