Upcoming Thief Changes - Discussion Topic

[babazhook.6805]

When all said and done I do think P/d will become a better set. The way I look at the repeater add , while concerned about the channel time, I see it as akin to being granted an extra venom for bleeds without taking up another Utility slot.

At this point and on further reflection I am not as concerned about the 4 second drop off for repeater and would like to test at that number first. The reason for this is I forsee myself using pistol 2 immobs to delay gap close after a port and I want to ensure I think the 4 seconds will allow more usage of the repeater in the long term given that 4 seconds is generally enough time to pay its INI cost. At this point, my thinking is that 4 seconds of having this in reserve to use might be preferable to having it drop off to early wherein you can not use it due to lack of INI or the opportunity does not present itself to use it realiably in a shorter time window. If that 1.75 second channel time window remains, as example I want to be sure I enter that channel when it safest to do so and 4 seconds can allow that. Four seconds will also allow me time to set up a stealthed sneak attack first after a successful shadowstrike port and follow it up with an immediate repeater.

My intent on early testing is to drop the venom I use in my existing build and slot in another utility instead, a number of which I would want to try.

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805

I’d agree but you don’t need four seconds to start a ranged attack. The five second period for melee strikes (like Sword 3) makes sense but you can do the combo you suggested in less than 2 seconds because of the 900 range, which is the basis of my number above.

That said, I could also see it being three seconds as well and not being too uncomfortable.

[Murmaider.1805]

Shadow Step is cool, the rest is literal poopy. To me it's a proven sign that they just don't care. But part of me wants to believe they do and that me saying they don't care is rude. But really, it seems just like a useless nerf with no thought. We'll see? No wait...

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@saerni.2584 said:My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

• Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)
• Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)
• Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)
• Range: 900 (no change)
• Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

Here's a compromise;

• Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.
• Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

I think I can live with that.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

I don’t understand why they nerfed the dmg of thiefs auto’s and non cheese attacks that would allow the thief to actually stand on its own and not have to resort to perma stealth,back stab burst mechanics or resets to deal enough damage to not be at a disadvantage in almost every fight. The crap arenets keeps nerfing and buffing keeps advocating cheese and in turn annoys more players and more nerfs cries follow lol sad cycle for such a cool class. This repeater no off hand is gonna be a insignificant waste of a boost to thief. S/d,p/p etc skills all need a boost in damage if the sustain in this game is staying.damage from stealth and back stab burst should be lowered,maybe backstab could do less damage but give thief utility or be a set up of some sort for a rotation. And before someone says s/d is meta yeah it is only cuz best it’s got. And a decap,+1 is a made up role delegated to a class(thief) cuz being fast is all its good at compared to other classes. Anyway my opinion,I’m sure tons disagree and others will say thiefs op lol

[saerni.2584]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@saerni.2584 said:My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

• Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)
• Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)
• Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)
• Range: 900 (no change)
• Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

Here's a compromise;

• Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.
• Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

I think I can live with that.

It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@saerni.2584 said:My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

• Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)
• Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)
• Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)
• Range: 900 (no change)
• Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

Here's a compromise;

• Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.
• Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

I think I can live with that.

It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

[babazhook.6805]

@saerni.2584 said:@babazhook.6805

I’d agree but you don’t need four seconds to start a ranged attack. The five second period for melee strikes (like Sword 3) makes sense but you can do the combo you suggested in less than 2 seconds because of the 900 range, which is the basis of my number above.

That said, I could also see it being three seconds as well and not being too uncomfortable.

I understand that 2 or 3 seconds is enough to get the repeater shot off. What I am saying is it not always advantageous to do so. The shadowstrike will be a significant tell and if we MUST use Repeater within 2 seconds or lose it , an enemy player will very easily be able to use blocks, dodges or the like to avoid. With 4 seconds if they dodge too early or throw a block up too early I can delay a few more seconds before I use the repeater.

This adds to decision making which I think more rewarding then always having decisions determined by a timer. The shorter that timer the less options you the player has.

[saerni.2584]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@saerni.2584 said:My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

• Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)
• Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)
• Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)
• Range: 900 (no change)
• Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

Here's a compromise;

• Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.
• Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

I think I can live with that.

It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

Yes because that’s it’s current cost. The follow up shot damage is pretty high to have it be less.

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@babazhook.6805

I’d agree but you don’t need four seconds to start a ranged attack. The five second period for melee strikes (like Sword 3) makes sense but you can do the combo you suggested in less than 2 seconds because of the 900 range, which is the basis of my number above.

That said, I could also see it being three seconds as well and not being too uncomfortable.

I understand that 2 or 3 seconds is enough to get the repeater shot off. What I am saying is it not always advantageous to do so. The shadowstrike will be a significant tell and if we MUST use Repeater within 2 seconds or lose it , an enemy player will very easily be able to use blocks, dodges or the like to avoid. With 4 seconds if they dodge too early or throw a block up too early I can delay a few more seconds before I use the repeater.

This adds to decision making which I think more rewarding then always having decisions determined by a timer. The shorter that timer the less options you the player has.

I agree in general. But I do think four seconds is too long. But I’ll wait to test it myself. I think we are generally in agreement here.

I’m generally cautiously optimistic about the patch changes.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I can live with no ini but a short timer xd

[Tunagod.8396]

This will make DE easy pickings for core roaming classes after the change(more than now, there's a reason its not meta). Everything you could do to make up for the loss of stealth is going to cost on an engage and in combat even more so, why waste a dodge on 1 second of stealth. I've been testing without a silent scope in wvw for the last few days since the notes came out. It will be incredibly hard for someone to make up for the loss of silent scope. The amount of time you have to disengage or die isn't going to be worth playing DE over DD and core builds. You will see a few things that make them still be around but not nearly as much due to how much you lose to even survive. This change along with mounts adding 12k to health pool, I don't see solo roaming being too viable for rifle builds. Sure as a group you'll be okay but still vulnerable as 1 second loss of target isn't going to help you much or even the damage boost from premeditation. This class isn't something everyone can play well to begin with.

[roamzero.9486]

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@saerni.2584 said:My initial thought, Repeater (flip version):

• Cost: Decrease cost to 4 initiative (was 5)
• Channel time: to 1 second (was 1.75)
• Damage: (x5) 440 (1.26) (no change)
• Range: 900 (no change)
• Flip time: 2 seconds (listed as four)

A flip version that cost 4 init will not be perceived as a buff.

Here's a compromise;

• Rename Repeater (flip skill) to Rapid Shots.
• Shadow Strike cost 3, Rapid Shots cost 2.

Lower cost for Shadow Strike since it now requires a successful hit before it flips.Rapid Shots cost is just to follow the precedence of LS's cost.Rapid Shot's bleeding needs to be more potent than Sneak Attack.

I think I can live with that.

It is much more potential damage even unchanged than the other flip skills. I don’t think 4 initiative is too much in that sense.

If Repeater (flip) will cost 4, how much will Shadow Strike cost? Also 4?

Yes because that’s it’s current cost. The follow up shot damage is pretty high to have it be less.

The follow up shot damage is still going to be less than the 4 stacks of torment, it's going to be the same as the old sneak attack.This update could end up being a very bad change to the spec, because prior to this update the best way to play p/d was using unhindered combatant, leaving you the option to use your dodges to quickly stack torment via shadow strike against enemies spamming projectile hate.The flip ability needs to be something with utility, not damage. Either cover condies (instead of 5 stacks of bleed, have each bullet be a random condition), somekind of unblockability/boon stripping, or a new ability that does something defensive.

[babazhook.6805]

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@babazhook.6805

I’d agree but you don’t need four seconds to start a ranged attack. The five second period for melee strikes (like Sword 3) makes sense but you can do the combo you suggested in less than 2 seconds because of the 900 range, which is the basis of my number above.

That said, I could also see it being three seconds as well and not being too uncomfortable.

I understand that 2 or 3 seconds is enough to get the repeater shot off. What I am saying is it not always advantageous to do so. The shadowstrike will be a significant tell and if we MUST use Repeater within 2 seconds or lose it , an enemy player will very easily be able to use blocks, dodges or the like to avoid. With 4 seconds if they dodge too early or throw a block up too early I can delay a few more seconds before I use the repeater.

This adds to decision making which I think more rewarding then always having decisions determined by a timer. The shorter that timer the less options you the player has.

I agree in general. But I do think four seconds is too long. But I’ll wait to test it myself. I think we are generally in agreement here.

I’m generally cautiously optimistic about the patch changes.

The way I look at it , if you in fact use that repeater shot as soon as is possible, then you are not worried about the fall off time as it GONE like using ones malice and you are back to the original Shadowstrike.

[DemonSeed.3528]

I'm just hoping it's fluid interaction between the switches.

[saerni.2584]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@babazhook.6805

I’d agree but you don’t need four seconds to start a ranged attack. The five second period for melee strikes (like Sword 3) makes sense but you can do the combo you suggested in less than 2 seconds because of the 900 range, which is the basis of my number above.

That said, I could also see it being three seconds as well and not being too uncomfortable.

I understand that 2 or 3 seconds is enough to get the repeater shot off. What I am saying is it not always advantageous to do so. The shadowstrike will be a significant tell and if we MUST use Repeater within 2 seconds or lose it , an enemy player will very easily be able to use blocks, dodges or the like to avoid. With 4 seconds if they dodge too early or throw a block up too early I can delay a few more seconds before I use the repeater.

This adds to decision making which I think more rewarding then always having decisions determined by a timer. The shorter that timer the less options you the player has.

I agree in general. But I do think four seconds is too long. But I’ll wait to test it myself. I think we are generally in agreement here.

I’m generally cautiously optimistic about the patch changes.

The way I look at it , if you in fact use that repeater shot as soon as is possible, then you are not worried about the fall off time as it GONE like using ones malice and you are back to the original Shadowstrike.

So I did some testing and the damage is...not great. The shots are slow and the only way this worked well was with the stolen skill (DE version) that grants quickness in combination beforehand.

I was able to get to around 2.5k with some might for the full channel (in PvP with Wizard amulet). I should note that I can get auto attacks that hit 1.3k (crit) and 1.7k bleed per shot at a much faster clip than using Repeater.

So I’ll revise my initiative cost suggestion and say 2 or 3 should be its cost. I’ll also continue testing and post comments here before Tuesday.

[babazhook.6805]

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@saerni.2584 said:@babazhook.6805

I’d agree but you don’t need four seconds to start a ranged attack. The five second period for melee strikes (like Sword 3) makes sense but you can do the combo you suggested in less than 2 seconds because of the 900 range, which is the basis of my number above.

That said, I could also see it being three seconds as well and not being too uncomfortable.

I understand that 2 or 3 seconds is enough to get the repeater shot off. What I am saying is it not always advantageous to do so. The shadowstrike will be a significant tell and if we MUST use Repeater within 2 seconds or lose it , an enemy player will very easily be able to use blocks, dodges or the like to avoid. With 4 seconds if they dodge too early or throw a block up too early I can delay a few more seconds before I use the repeater.

This adds to decision making which I think more rewarding then always having decisions determined by a timer. The shorter that timer the less options you the player has.

I agree in general. But I do think four seconds is too long. But I’ll wait to test it myself. I think we are generally in agreement here.

I’m generally cautiously optimistic about the patch changes.

The way I look at it , if you in fact use that repeater shot as soon as is possible, then you are not worried about the fall off time as it GONE like using ones malice and you are back to the original Shadowstrike.

So I did some testing and the damage is...not great. The shots are slow and the only way this worked well was with the stolen skill (DE version) that grants quickness in combination beforehand.

I was able to get to around 2.5k with some might for the full channel (in PvP with Wizard amulet). I should note that I can get auto attacks that hit 1.3k (crit) and 1.7k bleed per shot at a much faster clip than using Repeater.

So I’ll revise my initiative cost suggestion and say 2 or 3 should be its cost. I’ll also continue testing and post comments here before Tuesday.

I think if they hit INI and channel time it should be ok. If the shots are "slow" coupled with that channel it might well force either the quickness or use of pistol 2. To the concern that INI should not be so low as 2 (which I would concur seems right given the points you raised) , there no real way to spam this skill in any case as you still rquire the successful attack at melee to chain it.

[pureskullz.7536]

If you want that extra stealth time for that dodge gotta go SA now. Merry christmas deadeyes

[babazhook.6805]

I think with the Downgrade to Silent scope and the stealth it affords the skill requires some other enhancement. Return 20 percent crit chance on kneel perhaps or uptweak on precision offered. (150+150)

[Tunagod.8396]

@pureskullz.7536 said:

[Tunagod.8396]

@pureskullz.7536 said:If you want that extra stealth time for that dodge gotta go SA now. Merry christmas deadeyes

that's true

[saerni.2584]

Edit: I overstated the bleed damage on the auto attack. It is less but the original power damage is accurate.

Some updates:

Power damage on Repeater using Hybrid stats:

Most common damage range for full channel is 1200-1600 with a roughly 66% crit rate. Using hybrid wizard amulet and Thief Runes. Goal wasn’t to max damage so much as get a comparative damage value.

Compare:

Auto attack x3 (1.5 seconds): 2400 total damage no crit (1300/1100 power condi split). DPS: 867 power + roughly 275 bleed/sec, 1142 total.

Repeater x1 (1.75 seconds): 955 total damage no crit (assuming no bleed integrated). DPS: 546.

So right now I get much better damage by just auto attacking.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

Big surprise

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@saerni.2584 said:Edit: I overstated the bleed damage on the auto attack. It is less but the original power damage is accurate.

Some updates:

Power damage on Repeater using Hybrid stats:

Most common damage range for full channel is 1200-1600 with a roughly 66% crit rate. Using hybrid wizard amulet and Thief Runes. Goal wasn’t to max damage so much as get a comparative damage value.

Compare:

Auto attack x3 (1.5 seconds): 2400 total damage no crit (1300/1100 power condi split). DPS: 867 power + roughly 275 bleed/sec, 1142 total.

Repeater x1 (1.75 seconds): 955 total damage no crit (assuming no bleed integrated). DPS: 546.

So right now I get much better damage by just auto attacking.

Given the above and considering the rollover skill would prevent the 3>steal>3 combo, this just feels like a nerf dressed up like a buff.

[babazhook.6805]

What they might have to do in addition to the lower of channel time and a lower INI cost is add something akin to an unload wherein if the full channel lands a secondary effect added.

As example unload refunds INI. Repeater might do a daze on last hit.

1 second channel. 3 ini. On 5th shot 1/4 second daze. Again not spammable so can not be seen as "too much" given that shadowstrike hit needed at its INI cost as well. The daze can open up PI builds via Daredevil in power builds or added torment via pressure strike for condition. Hybrid can shoot for both .

There plenty of counterplay afforded due to a 1 second channel, the fact you know it coming and the slower projectile speed.