A discussion about condition damage and cleansing: Why is it always broken?

[Vagrant.7206]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

That's actually another part of the problem though to.

Extreme class bias. As long as people display such bias nothing actually gets to a point where it is in a good spot mechanically because it is continually nerfed to oblivion.All through the history of this game, when something is nerfed an inch the community demands a mile, but when they get that mile, they demand 5 miles, etc. etc.As long as we have that type of environment then nothing will ever progress, and we will always be stuck in this FoTM phase.

There's a tendency to run towards either extreme for some reason.

RIP Turrets

[Quadox.7834]

@Solori.6025 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

That's actually another part of the problem though to.

Extreme class bias. As long as people display such bias nothing actually gets to a point where it is in a good spot mechanically because it is continually nerfed to oblivion.All through the history of this game, when something is nerfed an inch the community demands a mile, but when they get that mile, they demand 5 miles, etc. etc.As long as we have that type of environment then nothing will ever progress, and we will always be stuck in this FoTM phase.

On the contrary, many devs (certainly gw2 devs) don't nerf enough, either for financial incentive or because most people dislike having their own class nerfed - loss aversion.

[TorQ.7041]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

Wait what??What pulsing field? Since when did thief become necro You are referring to skill3?? Of dagger dagger? It’s a slow animation that’s you can dodge or move of out. Steal is the only teleport. If you just get out of range he can’t just port onto you after steal.

I don’t see how it’s obnoxious when there’s big animations to everything. U can read when he has steal u can real skill 3 and you can read skill 4. You can also read his dodge for cal trips it’s complete fair if u can see what you are reacting to. It’s like dodging any physical damage skill, it will do damage just delayed.

The way I see it, it’s inly obnoxious when you don’t know what’s hitting you and what you can do about it.

[Ragnar.4257]

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

Wait what??What pulsing field? Since when did thief become necro You are referring to skill3?? Of dagger dagger? It’s a slow animation that’s you can dodge or move of out. Steal is the only teleport. If you just get out of range he can’t just port onto you after steal.

I don’t see how it’s obnoxious when there’s big animations to everything. U can read when he has steal u can real skill 3 and you can read skill 4. You can also read his dodge for cal trips it’s complete fair if u can see what you are reacting to. It’s like dodging any physical damage skill, it will do damage just delayed.

The way I see it, it’s inly obnoxious when you don’t know what’s hitting you and what you can do about it.

Calptrops (traited + utility)? Choking Gas? These are pulsing fields.Infiltrator's Strike is a teleport, and one of the main ways condi SD does damage? And it has no telegraph at all?

I'm no fan of mirage, but you're so blinded by it that you can't see anything else as unhealthy.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Hi @"Vagrant.7206", I see you went forward with creating this topic. Nice.

Already lots of good points made by knowledgeable people (seriously, not sarcastically). My two cents, very broadly:

Assuming we want condition damage and condition builds to be viable (I personally think they add extra flavor and nicely compliment an otherwise one-note direct damage paradigm), I think there is room for both ramping and burst application concepts. What these both have in common is that unlike direct damage, damage is not instantaneous, even with condi "bombs". They are damage over time. This is key in any discussion of how effective they are and how they can be countered.

Both types of application can be avoided entirely by the same dodges, evades, invulns, blocks, and blinds, that avoid direct damage. However, unique to avoiding condition damage is also resistance. So from the start, there are already more ways to completely avoid condition attacks. Then, even if they do land, they can still be mitigated with cleanses, conversions, transfers, protection, and the like (and in the case of Confusion and Torment, also by exercising some self-control). On top of that, these mitigations are not limited by the affected player's tool kit, but can benefit from those of teammates, with abilities that can be shared.

Contrast this to direct damage which is just that. The moment a direct damage attack lands, the damage is done. Instantly. No mitigation outside of toughness, protection, and the like. And we all know how hard many direct damage attacks hit, even certain autos. They also benefit from the critical hit mechanic, unlike conditions. For whatever reason, people are often more at ease with getting pelted by four-figure Long Bow autos from 1500+ range than three-figure condi chips applied in melee over several seconds, with an opportunity to mitigate. Perhaps it is simply the psychological alarm of seeing condition icons in the UI for multiple seconds versus the fleeting damage numbers that flash for direct damage, but I digress.

From what I've gathered, some people simply want condition-damage deleted from the game. Others just think condition application is too spammy (but this is essentially ramped application if each hit only applies modest stacks and durations). Others decry the "condi bombs" that Mirage and Scourge are known for. In any case, there is no denying these are the only two, out of 27(!) core and elite specializations that represent viable condi builds. This fact alone speaks for the state of condition damage as a viable PvP mechanic.

Assuming we want the added variety, there are only two ways to increase the number of viable condition builds: buffing conditions or reducing condition defenses. However, it may be difficult to do either without making condi-Mirage and Scourge overpowered. With the latest balance update, condi-Mirage was toned down signifcantly, so things may already be headed in this direction.

In general, I think all combat should be more calculated and deliberate, and condition play is no exception. If we want to allow it to ramp for DoT, and reward doing so while staying alive, then it can't be too easy to ignore or mitigate it. If we want to allow condi bursts to compliment direct damage bursts, both should be telegraphed and therefore allow for counter play. Since conditions can still be mitigated after application, maybe allow condi bursts to happen more frequently than direct damage bursts, but not significantly more frequently than the average condi mitigation cool down.

Condition mitigations themselves, are overloaded, and need to be reigned in:

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Related_skills

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition#Related_traits

TL;DR: Rollback cleanse-creep and reap more build variety in the form of viable condition builds. Balance condi-Mirage and Scourge around those reductions. Outside of niche, counter-condi builds, most builds should have no more than one, maybe two condi mitigation abilities on moderate to high cool downs. They should be saved and used if hit with a condi bomb or to clear ramping conditions at deliberate intervals.

EDIT: Mistakenly said Protection applies to condition damage as well as direct damage. Was thinking of Dolyak Stance, which has the same 33% reduction value and applies to both types of damagae.

[TorQ.7041]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@TorQ.7041 said:

@Ragnar.4257 said:An aspect that you have not addressed, and which I think is the biggest reason people always hate conditions, is the way they get applied.

Now, I am generalising here, but conditions tend to come from 100s of small hits, rather than a single big hit. Condition builds often seem to rely on either laying down a load of pulsing fields or AI, and then just waiting for damage to accrue, or else rely on on-hit/on-crit applications to stack up based on hitting the enemy 100s of times.

Compare this to, say, a warrior coming at you with an axe, or a hammer-guardian, or a fresh-air ele, or...... etc. In these cases it is very obvious to the player that "in order to win, I must dodge/mitigate these 2-3 skills". There is a tactical game of move and counter-move, where the warrior is trying to set-up an eviscerate, and their opponent is trying to anticipate and dodge it. And if their opponent fails, it is quite obvious to them why they have failed, and they can learn from it, plan better for next time, etc.

Whereas against condi builds, both of you flail around in pulsing fields, pew-pewing with chip attacks to apply on-hit effects, and then eventually one of you dies, with no real indication of what you did wrong, what you should have dodged. With no clear explanation, and no ability to learn from this and plan better for next time, the player will conclude that the condi build is just "overpowered" or "cheese", and that's that.

IMO re-thinking how conditions are applied will go a long way to making them acceptable to people.

This. It's why Condi mirage was so annoying. You have to look at the animations but at the same time find the correct 1 while the other guy can detarget, invis, port back and forth and invur.

Through the massive visual clutter. Half the time u don't know what you are looking for at.

I much rather have Condi thief as a thing. Because at least you can see it and dodge.

But considering the recent Nerf. I think it seems pretty balanced. You still have mesmers that win node but at the same time there isn't 4 every game anymore

With the recent scrap Nerf. I feel like everything is ok. Just time to buff things like renegade.

This isn't about mesmer. I would consider condi-thief to be just as obnoxious in its method of delivery, which is all insta-cast teleports and pulsing AoE fields. It just so happens that condi-thief can't keep up in the current meta while mirage can, but that's a separate point.

Wait what??What pulsing field? Since when did thief become necro You are referring to skill3?? Of dagger dagger? It’s a slow animation that’s you can dodge or move of out. Steal is the only teleport. If you just get out of range he can’t just port onto you after steal.

I don’t see how it’s obnoxious when there’s big animations to everything. U can read when he has steal u can real skill 3 and you can read skill 4. You can also read his dodge for cal trips it’s complete fair if u can see what you are reacting to. It’s like dodging any physical damage skill, it will do damage just delayed.

The way I see it, it’s inly obnoxious when you don’t know what’s hitting you and what you can do about it.

Calptrops (traited + utility)? Choking Gas? These are pulsing fields.Infiltrator's Strike is a teleport, and one of the main ways condi SD does damage? And it has no telegraph at all?

I'm no fan of mirage, but you're so blinded by it that you can't see anything else as unhealthy.

Ok I am mistaken i didn't even realize any one a actually plays something useless like that.

s/d condi is a joke. It's damage is literally so low that unless you don't know how to play and have no map awareness You shouldn't die to it. I don't think even gold players play it. The only one build I know of is d/d thief which can kill a warrior. But against other side noders like protect holo, mirage, scrapper. It's basically useless.

I mean sure if you wanna say I am blinded by it. I don't even play thief any more. Quit 2 seasons go and went straight to playing other classes lol.

[Ragnar.4257]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:No mitigation outside of toughness, protection (which also applies to condi), and the like.

wut?

Players who can't think of a pulsing field on thief or think that protection mitigates condi..... this is where we get balance advice from ^^

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@Ragnar.4257 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:No mitigation outside of toughness, protection (which also applies to condi), and the like.

wut?

Players who can't think of a pulsing field on thief or think that protection mitigates condi..... this is where we get balance advice from ^^

My mistake. Corrected in my post above:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

EDIT: Mistakenly said Protection applies to condition damage as well as direct damage. Was thinking of Dolyak Stance, which has the same 33% reduction value and applies to both types of damagae.

[coro.3176]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:Both types of application can be avoided entirely by the same dodges, evades, invulns, blocks, and blinds, that avoid direct damage. However, unique to avoiding condition damage is also resistance. So from the start, there are already more ways to completely avoid condition attacks. Then, even if they do land, they can still be mitigated with cleanses, conversions, transfers, protection, and the like (and in the case of Confusion and Torment, also by exercising some self-control). On top of that, these mitigations are not limited by the affected player's tool kit, but can benefit from those of teammates, with abilities that can be shared.

Even if they do land (not blocked/invulned/evaded/blinded), and even if they're not ignored (resistance), or removed (transfer, cleanse, conversion). They STILL are damage over time.

That time is sometimes up to 15 seconds or more. If you land lethal damage on an opponent, but it takes 15 seconds to fully tick out, that's still 15 seconds where the opponent can attack you back and potentially down you before you down them. That's 15 seconds of time they can stall on a point in pvp, or run back to their zerg in WvW.

In a perfect world, this last disadvantage should be the only one that that matters when considering DoT vs Direct.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@coro.3176 Agreed. In case it wasn't clear from my post, I generally feel that condi-damage is underpowered in relation to the amount of condi mitigation. To use @Vagrant.7206's framework: condi offense and condi defense are very asymmetrical, with the balance weighing decidedly in favor of defenses.

The reason condi-Mirage and Scourge are currently the only viable condi specs is they are the only ones who stand a chance of punching through the overtuned condi mitigation. And especially with the significant nerfs to condi-Mirage, winning fights with condis is anything but guaranteed.

Simply put, the condi offense/defense dichotomy needs to be balanced in a way that makes it equally possible for condi builds to wear down opponents with condi damage over time, and for opponents to avoid/ignore/remove conditions over time. Whether applied gradually through ramping or in bursts, conditions are by definition DoT, and defenses should mirror that. No more insta-removing multiple conditions with one click (or even passive trait), multiple times in one fight, on top of being able to dodge, evade, invuln, block, blind, or resist them in the first place. Longer cool downs, fewer passives, or maybe cleanse over time--condi mitigation needs to be dialed back.

In exchange for DoT inherently being a battle of attrition, condi builds should naturally have more survivability--whether it be in the form of tankiness, evasion, mobility, or healing--so that they can survive long enough for their attacks to matter. This is somewhat already the case with existing condi builds being able to stat sustain (toughness, vitality, healing) since they don't need to worry about direct damage stats (power, precision, and ferocity) as much. Mirage is evasive and Scourge dominates team fights with proper support. Any additional condi builds will need survivability to be effective. How to do this without overbuffing other builds is the challenging part.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:@coro.3176 Agreed. In case it wasn't clear from my post, I generally feel that condi-damage is underpowered in relation to the amount of condi mitigation. To use @Vagrant.7206's framework: condi offense and condi defense are very asymmetrical, with the balance weighing decidedly in favor of defenses.

The reason condi-Mirage and Scourge are currently the only viable condi specs is they are the only ones who stand a chance of punching through the overtuned condi mitigation. And especially with the significant nerfs to condi-Mirage, winning fights with condis is anything but guaranteed.

Simply put, the condi offense/defense dichotomy needs to be balanced in a way that makes it equally possible for condi builds to wear down opponents with condi damage over time, and for opponents to avoid/ignore/remove conditions over time. Whether applied gradually through ramping or in bursts, conditions are by definition DoT, and defenses should mirror that. No more insta-removing multiple conditions with one click (or even passive trait), multiple times in one fight, on top of being able to dodge, evade, invuln, block, blind, or resist them in the first place. Longer cool downs, fewer passives, or maybe cleanse over time--condi mitigation needs to be dialed back.

In exchange for DoT inherently being a battle of attrition, condi builds should naturally have more survivability--whether it be in the form of tankiness, evasion, mobility, or healing--so that they can survive long enough for their attacks to matter. This is somewhat already the case with existing condi builds being able to stat sustain (toughness, vitality, healing) since they don't need to worry about direct damage stats (power, precision, and ferocity) as much. Mirage is evasive and Scourge dominates team fights with proper support. Any additional condi builds will need survivability to be effective. How to do this without overbuffing other builds is the challenging part.

I generally agree with this. We also need to scale back the spike-ability of certain conditions at the same time so they do not functionally act like power damage, but more irritating to deal with.

[Swagg.9236]

GW2 conditions have never been anything other than damage. If you want to "fix" conditions, then they need to be something other than just a second, generic, untyped "power-scaling damage." Conditions need a role, and if they deal damage at all, there is no reason why it should be tied to a stat that isn't just "Power" or even benefit from a damage boosting stat at all. GW1 conditions were all just mana-pressure and conditional triggers. Nobody on a pre-constructed PvP team ever outright died from conditions due to the way that PvP teams were structured; and conditions remained important in PvE mainly due to how they served as conditional triggers for huge DPS boosts via direct damage skills. GW2 conditions utilize neither paradigm.

And before someone goes off about how GW1 uses the trinity and GW2 doesn't (which isn't really even the case anymore), the trinity is entirely separate from the idea of a universally-available set of DoTs which can be used to trigger certain effects in exchange for a high opportunity cost. GW2 doesn't even really have opportunity cost anymore due to the way that the weapon system and overall skill bar organization suffocates player choice and ends up feeding into bad developer designs. What to do with conditions isn't a question of implementing or scorning the MMO trinity; it's a matter of giving conditions an actual role in combat as well as a universal defense against condition builds: a paradigm which would allow opponents to outplay each other by timing pressure or healing while executing attacks.

[coro.3176]

For my condi engi, here are just a few opposing classes that make PvP unplayable:

• conversion holo - if one of these is nearby, I basically have to leave. I cannot stick any damage on them because it is converted to a boon within 5 seconds (usually within 2). Meanwhile, they put out a ton of close range aoe, and all my skills are fairly short-range. I just have to leave.
• any support - these all provide far too much cleanse + reflect to other players.
• core guardian - too much cleanse while also packing tons of damage

That's fully aside from the problem of having to waiting for the damage to tick. Even when fighting a "normal" class, if I have to apply condi, then wait ~5-10s for it to tick, then it gets cleansed. Then I have to reapply then wait 5-10s, then that gets cleansed, etc. That's still 15-30s I'm not capping the point.

Meanwhile, I'm just as squishy as a power class because there are no tanky amulets left in PvP.

If I can be bothered to go play again (honestly, just not feeling it any more), I'll record a video to demonstrate

[Vagrant.7206]

@"coro.3176" said:For my condi engi, here are just a few opposing classes that make PvP unplayable:

• conversion holo - if one of these is nearby, I basically have to leave. I cannot stick any damage on them because it is converted to a boon within 5 seconds (usually within 2). Meanwhile, they put out a ton of close range aoe, and all my skills are fairly short-range. I just have to leave.
• any support - these all provide far too much cleanse + reflect to other players.
• core guardian - too much cleanse while also packing tons of damage

That's fully aside from the problem of having to waiting for the damage to tick. Even when fighting a "normal" class, if I have to apply condi, then wait ~5-10s for it to tick, then it gets cleansed. Then I have to reapply then wait 5-10s, then that gets cleansed, etc. That's still 15-30s I'm not capping the point.

Meanwhile, I'm just as squishy as a power class because there are no tanky amulets left in PvP.

If I can be bothered to go play again (honestly, just not feeling it any more), I'll record a video to demonstrate

I play a conversion holo, and I used to play condi engineer. I can completely sympathize with the first point -- if you aren't a scourge or condi mirage, conversion holo completely invalidates your existence as a condi class. When I see people playing condi scrapper, I almost laugh in disbelief.

[incisorr.9502]

i mean your first post is fancy written but it's completely incorrect

you say power is "one of the best " ways to do damage? Power is THE best way to do damage. It's broken. It's not balanced. 25k damage maul from a ranger in another topic, revenants oneshotting with teleport through a wall or with an iframe skill and unblockable attacks, deadeye doing 20k dmg out of stealth and suddenly that's NOT BROKEN? Nice wording there buddy. Very inconsiderate.

Power is actually incredibly broken in this game and powerCREEP has benefited power builds the most because

MORE CONDI CLEANSES WERE ADDED which is a direct counter to condiit doesn't matter if more condi was added to the game. 10 confusion stacks or 1,000 confusion stacks or 1,000,000 confusion stacks doesn't matter because a single condition removal removes them.More POWER was added to the game but there's no more defense added to the game, we still have the same old stats as toughness and protection and that's it. There's nothing new to counter power

so Power > condi, by far

condition damage is WEAK and it's NOT VIABLE except on scourge and the only reason it works on scourge is because scourge is overstatted as hell compared to most classes and because it has unblockable attacks and the main reason - Boon corruption. There isn't a single other condi class in the game that's viable any more. Mirage is completely unplayable because last patch reduced axe damage by 66% which is absolutely ridiculous no matter how you look at it and on top of that you can't even use axe ambush any more because it just bugs out.

Also every single condi build REQUIRES both POWER and PRECISION. I don't know what up with all these non-pvpers who think that condi builds with only + condi dmg and expertise can be competitive. If you don't have power and precision you're not going to do any damage.

In the end condition damage requires way more skill in guild wars 2 because it can always be completely negated by the enemy if he's good enough and because it doesn't give you instant pay off. By design condition damage will ALWAYS be harder to play unless condition removals are very scarce and condition application is huge but that is not the case in gw2 any more. Condition application has been nerfed severely every single patch and condition removal has been buffed over time

what needs to happen is that condi application for every class needs to be greatly increased so the archetype can be viable again. If you get hit by 15 conditions and keep casting skills with them on then maybe you deserve your death because if those 15 conditions weren't conditions but a revenant attack then you would be dead before even getting to the "because" part

[coro.3176]

@"incisorr.9502" said:...what needs to happen is that condi application for every class needs to be greatly increased so the archetype can be viable again. If you get hit by 15 conditions and keep casting skills with them on then maybe you deserve your death because if those 15 conditions weren't conditions but a revenant attack then you would be dead before even getting to the "because" part

Would prefer less cleanse rather than more condi stacks. I feel like condi damage is in a decent spot if it's not cleansed repeatedly every few seconds.

I think it would be fine if there was something like "only heal skills remove damaging conditions". That way you can still have builds with lots of cleanse (ie to remove or convert blind/chill/cripple/etc.) but not have insane situations where condition classes can never do damage.

[saerni.2584]

As a long time player (6+ years) and a condi player until recently (now hybrid), I’d make a few notes on the state of balance condi wise.

For condi to be viable, Condi Damage Per Second (cDPS) needs to be either easily reapplied or high enough to sufficient spike a player before they can cleanse.

In a scenario with perfect cleanse uptime (1 cleanse of all conditions per second) then condition damage would need to exceed power damage (taking into account precision, ferocity and mitigation). Luckily we don’t live in that world, but we are moving in that direction.

Take these numbers.

Assume a 17k HP target. Assume that you (condi) can deliver a condi combo attack of 20k damage over 12 seconds, with 10k front loaded to happen over 3 seconds. Your cDPS without cleanse is 3333 for the first 3 seconds and 1111 for the last 9 seconds. The target would survive for 9 seconds without a cleanse or a heal.

Now assume your combo is on a cooldown of 30 seconds. In the interim you have enough condi pressure to add an average of 2000 cDPS to your target. Some of it may coincide with shorter cooldowns in your combo or with abilities that don’t fit into your combo. So you are looking at maybe 5k cDPS spike and 3k sustained if you land all your attacks (note that condi generally needs attacks to hit and unblockables can make condi builds more viable in the same way that it does for power).

Now adding in cleanse complicated things quite a bit. Suddenly the burst can be negated early, and the sustained damage will also be reduced even with high reapplication rates. You may easily be looking at a “burst” of 2k cDPS with a sustained damage of 1k cDPS (assuming you are mostly landing your attacks). Without supplementing your condi with power damage (hybrid) many sustain brawler builds will outheal your damage.

The viable builds overwhelm by either reapplication rates that don’t allow cleanse to significantly reduce sustained cDPS or by large (but relatively frequent) spikes that can get in enough damage in the opportunity window).

I’d suggest that cleanse be divided in two categories (anti damage and anti-cc). Every class should have both. I’d next suggest that cleanse be balanced as a reduction in the number of stacks of specific conditions and not as an outright removal of all stacks. Finally, I’d suggest that all condition abilities receive a balance pass in relation to the new cleanse system.

It’s no coincidence that newer condi professions (Mirage and Scourge) are the most viable. They are the closest to being built for the cleanse environment we are in. Everything else needs to be cleaned up and the ability to fine tune cleanse (on a #stacks removed basis) added to the game.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

@saerni.2584 said:I’d suggest that cleanse be divided in two categories (anti damage and anti-cc). Every class should have both. I’d next suggest that cleanse be balanced as a reduction in the number of stacks of specific conditions and not as an outright removal of all stacks. Finally, I’d suggest that all condition abilities receive a balance pass in relation to the new cleanse system.

Excellent points. I especially like this idea.

Meanwhile, I think I need to follow in your footsteps and go hybrid.

[Quadox.7834]

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’d suggest that cleanse be divided in two categories (anti damage and anti-cc). Every class should have both. I’d next suggest that cleanse be balanced as a reduction in the number of stacks of specific conditions and not as an outright removal of all stacks. Finally, I’d suggest that all condition abilities receive a balance pass in relation to the new cleanse system.

Excellent points. I especially like this idea.

Meanwhile, I think I need to follow in your footsteps and go hybrid.

I have also suggested to split damaging and debilitating conditions multiple times, I def. think it should at least be looked into

[Quadox.7834]

@"incisorr.9502" said:i mean your first post is fancy written but it's completely incorrect

you say power is "one of the best " ways to do damage? Power is THE best way to do damage. It's broken. It's not balanced. 25k damage maul from a ranger in another topic, revenants oneshotting with teleport through a wall or with an iframe skill and unblockable attacks, deadeye doing 20k dmg out of stealth and suddenly that's NOT BROKEN? Nice wording there buddy. Very inconsiderate.

Power is actually incredibly broken in this game and powerCREEP has benefited power builds the most because

MORE CONDI CLEANSES WERE ADDED which is a direct counter to condiit doesn't matter if more condi was added to the game. 10 confusion stacks or 1,000 confusion stacks or 1,000,000 confusion stacks doesn't matter because a single condition removal removes them.More POWER was added to the game but there's no more defense added to the game, we still have the same old stats as toughness and protection and that's it. There's nothing new to counter power

so Power > condi, by far

condition damage is WEAK and it's NOT VIABLE except on scourge and the only reason it works on scourge is because scourge is overstatted as hell compared to most classes and because it has unblockable attacks and the main reason - Boon corruption. There isn't a single other condi class in the game that's viable any more. Mirage is completely unplayable because last patch reduced axe damage by 66% which is absolutely ridiculous no matter how you look at it and on top of that you can't even use axe ambush any more because it just bugs out.

Also every single condi build

REQUIRES

both POWER and PRECISION. I don't know what up with all these non-pvpers who think that condi builds with only + condi dmg and expertise can be competitive. If you don't have power and precision you're not going to do any damage.

In the end condition damage requires way more skill in guild wars 2 because it can always be completely negated by the enemy if he's good enough and because it doesn't give you instant pay off. By design condition damage will ALWAYS be harder to play unless condition removals are very scarce and condition application is huge but that is not the case in gw2 any more. Condition application has been nerfed severely every single patch and condition removal has been buffed over time

what needs to happen is that condi application for every class needs to be greatly increased so the archetype can be viable again. If you get hit by 15 conditions and keep casting skills with them on then maybe you deserve your death because if those 15 conditions weren't conditions but a revenant attack then you would be dead before even getting to the "because" part

No, we absolutely do not need condis to be "greatly increased".

[Vagrant.7206]

@Quadox.7834 said:

@Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

@saerni.2584 said:I’d suggest that cleanse be divided in two categories (anti damage and anti-cc). Every class should have both. I’d next suggest that cleanse be balanced as a reduction in the number of stacks of specific conditions and not as an outright removal of all stacks. Finally, I’d suggest that all condition abilities receive a balance pass in relation to the new cleanse system.

Excellent points. I especially like this idea.

Meanwhile, I think I need to follow in your footsteps and go hybrid.

I have also suggested to split damaging and debilitating conditions multiple times, I def. think it should at least be looked into

Agreed. They aren't the same -- and I think my original post alluded as much. CC conditions have a symmetrical balance in cleansing, but damage condis do not.

@Quadox.7834 said:

@"incisorr.9502" said:i mean your first post is fancy written but it's completely incorrect

you say power is "one of the best " ways to do damage? Power is THE best way to do damage. It's broken. It's not balanced. 25k damage maul from a ranger in another topic, revenants oneshotting with teleport through a wall or with an iframe skill and unblockable attacks, deadeye doing 20k dmg out of stealth and suddenly that's NOT BROKEN? Nice wording there buddy. Very inconsiderate.

Power is actually incredibly broken in this game and powerCREEP has benefited power builds the most because

MORE CONDI CLEANSES WERE ADDED which is a direct counter to condiit doesn't matter if more condi was added to the game. 10 confusion stacks or 1,000 confusion stacks or 1,000,000 confusion stacks doesn't matter because a single condition removal removes them.More POWER was added to the game but there's no more defense added to the game, we still have the same old stats as toughness and protection and that's it. There's nothing new to counter power

so Power > condi, by far

condition damage is WEAK and it's NOT VIABLE except on scourge and the only reason it works on scourge is because scourge is overstatted as hell compared to most classes and because it has unblockable attacks and the main reason - Boon corruption. There isn't a single other condi class in the game that's viable any more. Mirage is completely unplayable because last patch reduced axe damage by 66% which is absolutely ridiculous no matter how you look at it and on top of that you can't even use axe ambush any more because it just bugs out.

Also every single condi build

REQUIRES

both POWER and PRECISION. I don't know what up with all these non-pvpers who think that condi builds with only + condi dmg and expertise can be competitive. If you don't have power and precision you're not going to do any damage.

In the end condition damage requires way more skill in guild wars 2 because it can always be completely negated by the enemy if he's good enough and because it doesn't give you instant pay off. By design condition damage will ALWAYS be harder to play unless condition removals are very scarce and condition application is huge but that is not the case in gw2 any more. Condition application has been nerfed severely every single patch and condition removal has been buffed over time

what needs to happen is that condi application for every class needs to be greatly increased so the archetype can be viable again. If you get hit by 15 conditions and keep casting skills with them on then maybe you deserve your death because if those 15 conditions weren't conditions but a revenant attack then you would be dead before even getting to the "because" part

No, we absolutely do not need condis to be "greatly increased".

Yeah, I think that's the opposite problem of what we have.

What we have are a few viable builds (scourge, condi mirage) that are able to spew out a wide variety or frequency of condis, which allows them to overcome cleansing capabilities right now.

What we need are cleansing abilities and traits to be rare and very valuable, but the frequency of application and diversity of condis by any given spec to be moderate so that pre-PoF specs and builds are not completely invalid. In other words, we need to undo the powercreep of cleanse and condis.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

^Yes, indeed.

I would also posit that condi-Mirage has already had its condi-creep undone, or is at least well on its way, depending on where cleanse ends up if it's ever reworked. With the current state of counter-condi, and this quasi-bunker meta, I think condi-mirage is hanging by a thread in sPvP, if that. Almost all the mesmer builds I'm seeing are power, and they are not OP by any means.

I'm not one for hyperbole, but there may be something to certain Mirage mains' claims that the last balance update pretty much deleted condi-Mirage. Not to say they're extinct, but they may well be an endangered species.

[Vagrant.7206]

@"Twilight Tempest.7584" said:^Yes, indeed.

I would also posit that condi-Mirage has already had its condi-creep undone, or is at least well on its way, depending on where cleanse ends up if it's ever reworked. With the current state of counter-condi, and this quasi-bunker meta, I think condi-mirage is hanging by a thread in sPvP, if that. Almost all the mesmer builds I'm seeing are power, and they are not OP by any means.

I'm not one for hyperbole, but there may be something to certain Mirage mains' claims that the last balance update pretty much deleted condi-Mirage. Not to say they're extinct, but they may well be an endangered species.

They're viable right now. Not crazy strong like they were, but viable.

However, they are still powercreeped well above earlier specs -- if you compare condi engineer from vanilla GW2, the application rates and diversity of condis look almost nothing alike. If you "spiked" the burning on the old vanilla build (pre incendiary ammo nerf) you could get a max of 10-12 burns for a brief moment (you averaged around 4-6), some poison, some bleed, and some confusion. It was not an easy build to play and you had to cycle through a lot of kits to do max damage. The application rate was slow and steady, but because condi cleanses were rarer, the only enemy that was a particular problem was necros with plague signet (and they all had plague signet back then).

You can check out some of the archived builds on metabattle, look for the profession-specific ones (core only). If you compare them to current condi specs, they're miles apart -- current condi specs can often double or triple the condi pressure that old builds could, either by diversity or application rates. The old builds also distinctly lacked defense options in their offense -- the only things coming close are blinds attached to weaker conditions, or cripples attached to weaker conditions. You didn't see heavy damage condis paired with heavy CC condis -- heavy damage condis were almost entirely separated from CC condis.

[Airdive.2613]

You are trying to compare condition damage with power damage while they're meant to be fundamentally different.

[Vagrant.7206]

@Airdive.2613 said:You are trying to compare condition damage with power damage while they're meant to be fundamentally different.

Except they operate in a fundamentally identical manner. The only difference is that condi damage ticks regularly over time, while power damage can be irregular.