Living World Access To New Players

jokke.6239 · August 10, 2020

It's simple. Having to pay for dozens of pieces of content that most regular players got for free sucks. No context you use can justify that.I don't like how people are turning a generous addition from Arena Net into something negative. (and i'm saying this as a person who have bought a lot of episodes, since I take a lot of breaks)They don't have to give the episodes away for free in the first place. They do this to keep the game active, so players keep coming back.If the episodes were free all the time, a lot of people would not be motivated to come back everytime there's a new living story for the game. It's healthy for the game.It's not free because the content isn't worth paying for. A whole season is basicly a free "light expansions". Only thing Arena ask from you is to be an active player in the game, since that helps them in return. If you're not, you are going to have to pay a very fair price to get them, or just earn the gold and pay for them through gameplay.

CazzT.1870 · August 10, 2020

@"jokke.6239" said:
It's simple. Having to pay for dozens of pieces of content that most regular players got for free sucks. No context you use can justify that.I don't like how people are turning a generous addition from Arena Net into something negative. (and i'm saying this as a person who have bought a lot of episodes, since I take a lot of breaks)It's not us turning it into a negative. It's a bad decision on their part, and we're simply pointing that out.

They don't have to give the episodes away for free in the first place. They do this to keep the game active, so players keep coming back.I haven't seen anyone having an issue with them giving away the episodes free to the active players. The issue is in the way they lock it after. But more so it's how they do nothing to inform the player they are not getting the full story when they buy the current expansion. If any other company did this, it would be called what it is: deceitful.

It's not free because the content isn't worth paying for. A whole season is basicly a free "light expansions". Only thing Arena ask from you is to be an active player in the game, since that helps them in return. If you're not, you are going to have to pay a very fair price to get them, or just earn the gold and pay for them through gameplay.Then players need to be informed they exist when they're buying the current expansion. As I've said, I'm known about LW for years. Since literally no other MMO sells crumbs of their content like ANet does with LW, it never even crossed my mind that I wouldn't be getting ALL of the story when I bought Path of Fire.

When you buy a car, you assume you're getting the whole car. What would you call it if you suddenly found out, after purchasing it, that you have to pay more for the radio change stations, pay more to change the temp for the AC, pay more to roll down the passenger window... Things you naturally expect when you buy a car, because that's how every car works that's made today. Would you defend that? Because that's what you're defending here.

Dreams.3128 · August 10, 2020

@CazzT.1870 said:
@jokke.6239 said:
@CazzT.1870 said:
@jokke.6239 said:
@CazzT.1870 said:
@jokke.6239 said:FFXIV and WoW has box cost+ expansion + sub fee + microtransactions (that you can't earn in-game).FFXIV and WoW also don't gate past content behind a separate purchase. You buy the current expansion, you get the whole game. This is not the case with GW2. And that will be a deterrent for many people.In the case of WoW, a lot of old content was changed/removed with Cataclysm. And that's still a sore spot for some. But other than that, all the content is still there, it hasn't been removed. FFXIV:ARR has not had any of its main story removed (they are trimming needless filler with 5.3, but they're not removing anything important like LWS1 has in it).

No.. they gate all content behind a seperate purchase, every monthAnd GW2 doesn't gate anything behind a purchase except for the expansions.

Subscription is not gating.GW2 gates LW behind additional purchase of the content, on top of paying for expansions.Never seen anyone call subscriptions "gating" before....

So let me get this straight ..Content you can buy permanently with a one time real money purchase AND earn in game is gated content... BUT .. Content that is gated behind a real money purchase that you have to repeat monthly is NOT gated content?

A sub grants you access to the entire game, not just part of it. If there were tiers of subs, where higher tiers gave access to content that lower tiers did not, THAT would be gating with subs. And I can't think of a single MMO that does that. So no, subscription is not gating.

You must have forgot subbed games also have the audacity to have cash shops on top of having to paying for their game like another bill, AND some subs even go a step further and having to pay to get into certain servers depending on how unlucky you are. That is one hundred percent gating. You don't bloody pay for something and then have the company take it away with their hand out. That's just gutting even more money from already generous or naive players. That's takes advantage of a lot, yet you people still act like this is okay.

Sub games would have been more defendable if they were buy to play, but sub games have NO excuse to charge what they do, AND have cash shops AND pay for whatever else they want you to pay for. That's just robbery at that point, and I do not support that, period. A company is not going to control when I play a game or when I pay them to have fun. That's why people will always lean towards free to plays, if they can, if they are solid. Subscriptions is an outdated, greedy idea.

CazzT.1870 · August 10, 2020

@Lilyanna.9361 said:
@CazzT.1870 said:
@jokke.6239 said:
@CazzT.1870 said:
@jokke.6239 said:
@CazzT.1870 said:
@jokke.6239 said:FFXIV and WoW has box cost+ expansion + sub fee + microtransactions (that you can't earn in-game).FFXIV and WoW also don't gate past content behind a separate purchase. You buy the current expansion, you get the whole game. This is not the case with GW2. And that will be a deterrent for many people.In the case of WoW, a lot of old content was changed/removed with Cataclysm. And that's still a sore spot for some. But other than that, all the content is still there, it hasn't been removed. FFXIV:ARR has not had any of its main story removed (they are trimming needless filler with 5.3, but they're not removing anything important like LWS1 has in it).

No.. they gate all content behind a seperate purchase, every monthAnd GW2 doesn't gate anything behind a purchase except for the expansions.

Subscription is not gating.GW2 gates LW behind additional purchase of the content, on top of paying for expansions.Never seen anyone call subscriptions "gating" before....

So let me get this straight ..Content you can buy permanently with a one time real money purchase AND earn in game is gated content... BUT .. Content that is gated behind a real money purchase that you have to repeat monthly is NOT gated content?

A sub grants you access to the entire game, not just part of it. If there were tiers of subs, where higher tiers gave access to content that lower tiers did not, THAT would be gating with subs. And I can't think of a single MMO that does that. So no, subscription is not gating.

You must have forgot subbed games also have the audacity to have cash shops on top of having to paying for their game like another bill, AND some subs even go a step further and having to pay to get into certain servers depending on how unlucky you are. That is one hundred percent gating.No, that is not gating. But for the record, I'm not a fan of cash shops in games with a sub. And since that's not part of this topic, it wasn't something to forget.In regards to paying to have access to different servers..... Runescape is the only game I can think of that does this. But even if there are others, that's not a problem. Just like with ESO, if you pay a sub, you get access to the whole game, expansions and all, with the sub, even if you never actually buy the expansions. Paying a monthly sub for access to a different server is not a bad thing.

You don't bloody pay for something and then have the company take it away with their hand out. That's just gutting even more money from already generous or naive players. That's takes advantage of a lot, yet you people still act like this is okay.I've never seen any MMO make their customers pay for something, then take it away, only to sell it back to the players later. And I certainly don't know where you're getting the idea that I, or anyone else in this thread, think this is OK.

Sub games would have been more defendable if they were buy to play, but sub games have NO excuse to charge what they do, AND have cash shops AND pay for whatever else they want you to pay for. That's just robbery at that point, and I do not support that, period. A company is not going to control when I play a game or when I pay them to have fun. That's why people will always lean towards free to plays, if they can, if they are solid. Subscriptions is an outdated, greedy idea.Subs are not outdated. In fact, they're on the rise because the F2P model has proven to be even more greedy than subs with cash shops are. Case in point, this entire topic.As for a company controlling when you play a game... they always are in control of that. You don't get to decide when maintenance happens, nor if the servers stay online. They have control over whether you're even allowed to log in.People will always prefer free over paying for something. But, people also know, you get what you pay for. Which is why subscription games tend to have a more consistent community than F2P games. Which is better is entirely subjective.

Inculpatus cedo.9234 · August 10, 2020

Odd. It's okay when games predicate access to the entire game on a monthly cost - pay or no play, but it's not okay to offer access to parts of the game permanently through in-game earnings (no real money costs).
Well, that's one opinion, I guess.

dandamanno.4136 · August 10, 2020

Gw2 is rather generous content wise if you actually tally up the cost for a new player to jump in with all content unlocked. $30 for HoT/PoF combo and around another $30-$40 to unlock all the 2,3 and 4 LW seasons. Early Icebrood would probably be a few extra dollars on top of that.

ESO is around $70 ($50 on sale right now) for all expansions right now, then a sub will unlock all the smaller content patches like Clockwork City etc, as well as huge QoL stuff like crafting bag etc.

Whether you prefer the sub to unlock loads of stuff that micro transactions would give you over here is a matter of preference.

The main problem is that the LW mechanic includes tonnes of contiguous story that is actually required if you want to experience the story entirely and that mechanic is not well explained during point of purchase.

ANET could do better in that respect.

CazzT.1870 · August 10, 2020

@dandamanno.4136 said:ESO is around $70 ($50 on sale right now) for all expansions right now, then a sub will unlock all the smaller content patches like Clockwork City etc, as well as huge QoL stuff like crafting bag etc.ESO, you can make an account right now, subscribe, and have access to 100% of the content, including the expansions. You don't have to buy them, just subscribe monthly. It's an interesting approach, and one I'm interested to see how it will hold up long term. I think they're losing out on money by not requiring players to buy the expansion, but ZeniMax (bethesda's parent company) isn't exactly hurting for money, so they can easily afford to run with this model.
The main problem is that the LW mechanic includes tonnes of contiguous story that is actually required if you want to experience the story entirely and that mechanic is not well explained during point of purchase.I don't know how to highlight a point on these forums, but this is one of the two biggest issues brought up in this thread.

Just as a note to add to dandamanno's point of the LW being vital to the story.... I just had to make a choice between three factions (Blazing a Trail). I have no idea who any of them are, what they stand for. My original plan was to play through the whole story, from the start, so I could make decisions in these scenarios, knowing who the parties are, having an investment in my character and her developing into who she is. But when I saw I have to spend more money to get the story that would let me properly do that.... I lost all interest in the story. Now I'm having to make a choice, worrying about the items I'll get from it instead of how it will change the story. As someone who values story over loot, this is not a pleasant experience.

dandamanno.4136 · August 10, 2020

@CazzT.1870 said:
@dandamanno.4136 said:ESO is around $70 ($50 on sale right now) for all expansions right now, then a sub will unlock all the smaller content patches like Clockwork City etc, as well as huge QoL stuff like crafting bag etc.ESO, you can make an account right now, subscribe, and have access to 100% of the content, including the expansions. You don't have to buy them, just subscribe monthly. It's an interesting approach, and one I'm interested to see how it will hold up long term. I think they're losing out on money by not requiring players to buy the expansion, but ZeniMax (bethesda's parent company) isn't exactly hurting for money, so they can easily afford to run with this model.

I didn't know that. This must be pretty recent since I took a break in November and haven't been back since. Not having to buy any expansion and just a sub for all content is pretty insane considering many people like myself already subbed for the perks alone.

Was there not a huge outcry from people who already bought the expansion(s)? I would be kind of ticked off if I bought it and the next day it was free with a sub.

EDIT: I found it now. It's only until August 19, during Quakecon. So just a promo thing for new players. Cool, but not the same as a permanent choice.

kharmin.7683 · August 10, 2020

@CazzT.1870 said:
Subs are not outdated. In fact, they're on the rise because the F2P model has proven to be even more greedy than subs with cash shops are. Case in point, this entire topic.Strange. I've been playing for well over 6 years now, and haven't had to pay more than the price of the expansions. I don't find that greedy. /shrug

CazzT.1870 · August 10, 2020

@dandamanno.4136 said:
@CazzT.1870 said:
@dandamanno.4136 said:ESO is around $70 ($50 on sale right now) for all expansions right now, then a sub will unlock all the smaller content patches like Clockwork City etc, as well as huge QoL stuff like crafting bag etc.ESO, you can make an account right now, subscribe, and have access to 100% of the content, including the expansions. You don't have to buy them, just subscribe monthly. It's an interesting approach, and one I'm interested to see how it will hold up long term. I think they're losing out on money by not requiring players to buy the expansion, but ZeniMax (bethesda's parent company) isn't exactly hurting for money, so they can easily afford to run with this model.

I didn't know that. This must be pretty recent since I took a break in November and haven't been back since. Not having to buy any expansion and just a sub for all content is pretty insane considering many people like myself already subbed for the perks alone.

Was there not a huge outcry from people who already bought the expansion(s)? I would be kind of ticked off if I bought it and the next day it was free with a sub.I'm sure there's someone who isn't happy with how ZM does it. But you only have access to the expansions while your sub is active. Stop the sub, and at the end of that sub period, you lose access to the stuff. You still have the base game (and whatever comes with the F2P package). Then again, you can sub for a few months, get the crowns needed to purchase the expansion, buy it with the crowns, and then drop the sub and still have unlocked the expansion. Not a bad way to do it. I'd be fine with a sub here if it meant getting a reasonable amount of gems each month of active subscription. People who have mountains of gold would still be able to do their gold-to-gems conversion if they wanted to.

dandamanno.4136 · August 10, 2020

@kharmin.7683 said:
@"CazzT.1870" said:
Subs are not outdated. In fact, they're on the rise because the F2P model has proven to be even more greedy than subs with cash shops are. Case in point, this entire topic.Strange. I've been playing for well over 6 years now, and haven't had to pay more than the price of the expansions. I don't find that greedy. /shrug

The Gem to Gold conversion ability means that is entirely possible. If you enjoy grinding out gold in this game (I mean that in a good way, like it is actually fun for you) then playing games like this is a real dream since you can convert everything to gems and get everything you want for "just playing the game".

Of course, if grinding for gold is less fun for you, then that becomes a bad experience and it feels like the game is charging you for everything, lol.

In that case though, I would just leave.

jokke.6239 · August 10, 2020

@CazzT.1870 said:
@"jokke.6239" said:
It's simple. Having to pay for dozens of pieces of content that most regular players got for free sucks. No context you use can justify that.I don't like how people are turning a generous addition from Arena Net into something negative. (and i'm saying this as a person who have bought a lot of episodes, since I take a lot of breaks)It's not us turning it into a negative. It's a bad decision on their part, and we're simply pointing that out.

They don't have to give the episodes away for free in the first place. They do this to keep the game active, so players keep coming back.I haven't seen anyone having an issue with them giving away the episodes free to the active players. The issue is in the way they lock it after. But more so it's how they do nothing to inform the player they are not getting the full story when they buy the current expansion. If any other company did this, it would be called what it is: deceitful.

They give you the core game for free, then you buy the 2 expansions "Heart of Thorns/Path of Fire". They are not saying "buy all content" when you buy the expansions. You are purchasing two expansions. There is nothing deceitful about this. Could they do a better job of maybe offer a bundle for living story on the store page? I think all in this thread can agree on this. What a lot of us don't agree on is that they should offer it for free, just because someone else got it for free. And yes there are plenty of replies who have said that.

It's not free because the content isn't worth paying for. A whole season is basicly a free "light expansions". Only thing Arena ask from you is to be an active player in the game, since that helps them in return. If you're not, you are going to have to pay a very fair price to get them, or just earn the gold and pay for them through gameplay.Then players need to be informed they exist when they're buying the current expansion. As I've said, I'm known about LW for years. Since literally no other MMO sells crumbs of their content like ANet does with LW, it never even crossed my mind that I wouldn't be getting ALL of the story when I bought Path of Fire.

There are plenty of games that sells expansions individually. And not all companies have to stick to the same traditional model. It's changing all the time.When you buy a car, you assume you're getting the whole car. What would you call it if you suddenly found out, after purchasing it, that you have to pay more for the radio change stations, pay more to change the temp for the AC, pay more to roll down the passenger window... Things you naturally expect when you buy a car, because that's how every car works that's made today. Would you defend that? Because that's what you're defending here.

Did you get access to a free car, then an option to purchase expansion upgrade packs for the car? .. Okay i'm going to stop now, because as you can see it doesn't make sense comparing buying a car to a MMORPG business model.

keenedge.9675 · August 10, 2020

new car for sale - cheap. ( ps Tires are extra )

I vote for a purchase option as well. It's disheartening for new players to find they bought a fresh game and suddenly have to spend more for the main story-line. Just add a bundle to the ultra premiun pack instead of gems.

jokke.6239 · August 10, 2020

@keenedge.9675 said:
I vote for a purchase option as well. It's disheartening for new players to find they bought a fresh game and suddenly have to spend more for the main story-line. Just add a bundle to the ultra premiun pack instead of gems.

Agreed, that's a great suggestion.

Thenme.6491 · August 10, 2020

full disclosure I did not pay anything to get any episode as I was always there to get free episodes

I think that the problem here is with the initial idea of how Anet designed the storyline. unlike many other games in which every expansion/dlc is it's own saga, guild wars 2 has a continuous never ending story line.

spoilers

it was the same reason people got angry over trahearn taking over. if you didn't begin as sylvari, this did not make any sense. because all of the main story was one complete saga.then begins the mordremorth saga, which spans from the beginning of season 1 where scarlet briar awakens mordy, then on season 2 you get the reason to get into the jungle to fight mordy which you do in heart of thorns.

end of spoilers

this problem goes on in season 3 that starts a saga that ends in path of fire.

and this is more of an advertising problem rather than a cost problem.this complaints wouldn't have been if instead of bundling heart of thorns and path of fire they would have bundled each with it's own season prequel 25$ each which keeps the same price.the funny thing is heart of thorns and path of fire are not as related to one another as they are to their prequel seasons.this is the real issue, not the price

Ayrilana.1396 · August 10, 2020

@keenedge.9675 said:new car for sale - cheap. ( ps Tires are extra )

Incorrect analogy. DLC’s are not expansion content.

Dark Red Killian.3946 · August 10, 2020

I cannot sympathize with you, as I have always unlocked each episode for free, but what I can say is this: there are times when the LW episodes go on sale. Wait on icebrood saga episodes, because at some point in the season, they could rerelease them for free. I do get that as a purchaser, they do not advertise the LW content on payable dlc, but why would they? It’s purely a monetary thing. It could deter someone from buying the expansions if they see 3-4 seasons worth of content that needs to be bought also. Actually, LW seasons don’t need to be bought, but you do miss out on story otherwise, so it’s purely your preference.

tetsuo.7318 · August 14, 2020

Yeah just had a few friends which i just got in to the game quit because of this. They bought the xpacks leveled to 80 and started HOT and then where completely confused on what's going on i told them they need to fork over 40 bucks for the rest of the main story to make any sense of it and part 1 is gone forever they just laughed and quit the game....

Sarie.1630 · August 14, 2020

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:In most games, DLC’s are typically not included unless explicitly stated.

But for a full story experience I would definitely advocate a "complete package" being available to buy at the outset and maybe more explicit marketing from ArenaNet. No-one likes to feel like they have bought the whole thing only to find out that they haven't. I don't disagree with the model of "paying more for Living World seasons after their free period" but think it should be clearer to new players.

kharmin.7683 · August 14, 2020

@tetsuo.7318 said:Yeah just had a few friends which i just got in to the game quit because of this. They bought the xpacks leveled to 80 and started HOT and then where completely confused on what's going on i told them they need to fork over 40 bucks for the rest of the main story to make any sense of it and part 1 is gone forever they just laughed and quit the game....