Upkeep skill mechanic drain energy, what if upkeep skills had a counterpart

[Knighthonor.4061]

● The newly added Ancient Echo skill provides it's own form of energy regeneration.

○ Problem is this is not available to elite specs. Which imo energy regeneration is a big thing that should be better built into the class.

● Right now we have Legend Swap and traits as the only way to manually regenerate energy in Elite Specs.

○ What if Upkeep skills had some kind of counterpart that regenerates energy instead of deplete it?

● Legend swap is a bad mechanic for energy management due to how radically different legends are and their roles. A support Ventari swapping to Dwarf would completely change my role and may not fit my gear. Same scenario for many other legend combos.

○ my idea here is something called Resurgence mechanics. It's a throw back to some of the early skill type design of Charged skills that was talked about pre GW2 release. Upkeep skills activate and deactivate when you click them. But what if when held down it did a totally different effect that regenerated energy while held down. With this method in place each Resurgence skill would be unique just like every upkeep skill is unique. With this the traditional upkeep skills stay the same and work the same unless held down.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

So don’t take dwarf with ventari? Seems pretty simple to me

[narcx.3570]

Kalla's a better support legend than Ventari anyways, unless your group is veerrrryyyy inexp...

Swapping between the two of them should never be an issue in terms of losing group support unless you need something like Ventari's sustained projectile denial--but that's not really involved in any sort of meta strategies (aside from WvW zerg play, and even then it's not really meta anyways since everyone just has 10+ Winds of Disenchantment up all the time.)

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

You two above me do realize there are other upkeep skills and that the OP was only using Jalis/Ventari as an example, right? You missed his entire point.

@OP, love the idea but I doubt we’ll see something like that ever implemented. If I recall correctly, there was some problems with the charge up mechanic and they abandoned the idea altogether.

[Justine.6351]

Here's a better idea, remove ventari legend so anet stop trying to balance the meme into something 5 people care about.

Oh that's not what op was talking about? Ok let me explain what revenant is,

A cross between elementalist attunements and thief initiative. A bad elementalist never rotates attunements and a bad thief never has initiative. What is a bad revenant? One that never swaps legends and never has energy.

Game too hard.

[narcx.3570]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:You two above me do realize there are other upkeep skills and that the OP was only using Jalis/Ventari as an example, right? You missed his entire point.

@OP, love the idea but I doubt we’ll see something like that ever implemented. If I recall correctly, there was some problems with the charge up mechanic and they abandoned the idea altogether.

I didn't miss their entire point... Their entire point is that they want to be able to camp one legend all day long (which is not the point of revenant gameplay--there is not a single trait or skill in the kit that supports this type of gameplay outside of maybe the new Core-Rev-f2 skill, which you can tell was mostly designed to give leveling rev's with only a few legends unlocked an energy boost.)

My point is that Legend Swapping IS the energy regeneration mechanic, and there is not a single situation in the game where you HAVE to camp one legend and there's not a single role you'll be looking to fill that doesn't have two legends that suit it. If they just picked Jalis/Kalla as a random example, then they missed the entire point of making a build--you don't just put random things together and complain that they don't work, you pick complimentary things. In this case, using Ventari/Kalla instead of Ventari/Jalis, would allow them to swap for energy and never lose healing output or group support. Saying things like "A support Ventari swapping to Dwarf would completely change my role and may not fit my gear" is akin to a Dragon Hunter saying, "When I swap from Greatsword to Staff I lose all my dps!" Just as there are other, better weapon combos for that DH, there are other better legend combos for a Revenant.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

@narcx.3570 said:

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:You two above me do realize there are other upkeep skills and that the OP was only using Jalis/Ventari as an example, right? You missed his entire point.

@OP, love the idea but I doubt we’ll see something like that ever implemented. If I recall correctly, there was some problems with the charge up mechanic and they abandoned the idea altogether.

I didn't miss their entire point... Their entire point is that they want to be able to camp one legend all day long (which is not the point of revenant gameplay--there is not a single trait or skill in the kit that supports this type of gameplay outside of maybe the new Core-Rev-f2 skill, which you can tell was mostly designed to give leveling rev's with only a few legends unlocked an energy boost.)

My point is that Legend Swapping

IS

the energy regeneration mechanic, and there is not a single situation in the game where you HAVE to camp one legend and there's not a single role you'll be looking to fill that doesn't have two legends that suit it. If they just picked Jalis/Kalla as a random example, then they missed the entire point of making a build--you don't just put random things together and complain that they don't work, you pick complimentary things. In this case, using Ventari/Kalla instead of Ventari/Jalis, would allow them to swap for energy and never lose healing output or group support. Saying things like "A support Ventari swapping to Dwarf would completely change my role and may not fit my gear" is akin to a Dragon Hunter saying, "When I swap from Greatsword to Staff I lose all my dps!" Just as there are other, better weapon combos for that DH, there are other better legend combos for a Revenant.

Thank you for expressing all of my inner feelings so precisely. 10/10

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

I don’t think that was his point either. You’re leaving out one key component to the equation of what is a revenant is. Yes, energy is one but so is the utility of using two legends. If your swapping for only energy management, then your doing it wrong.

Just for clarification. I’m speaking from a competitive standpoint btw.

[Rym.1469]

So, maybe to translate it to a day-to-day forum visitor, your point is that Upkeep skills could have an alternate mode, with potentially a negative effect instead of a positive one, but regenerate Energy instead of draining it.

Correct me if I'm wrong, that's how I read it.

I'm a huge hound for duality in skills and the approach where the same skill can be used in many ways. Oracle in DotA 2 is one of the best examples of it, on paper.

I think it's a great idea, but not necessarily fit on a core revenant. It'd make a great fit on standalone elite specialization, but would stir up a huge hornet's nest and put a design collar on other existing and future designs.

Having said that, I also agree on the points made above that limiting yourself to only one Legend should never be anywhere close to the optimal play. In other words, Revenant has two stances for a reason and is not meant to camp one. If your build only makes sense with one Legend then it's just a bad build.

[Kulvar.1239]

Successful hit with first weapon skill could restore N (usually 1) energy (on the last ability for chains)Having "downkeep" skills would turn the UI into a big mess

[Aeolus.3615]

@Justine.6351 said:Here's a better idea, remove ventari legend so anet stop trying to balance the meme into something 5 people care about.

Oh that's not what op was talking about? Ok let me explain what revenant is,

A cross between elementalist attunements and thief initiative. A bad elementalist never rotates attunements and a bad thief never has initiative. What is a bad revenant? One that never swaps legends and never has energy.

Game too hard.

Ventari isn’t that bad it’s quite nice altough it’s radios of effect could be better, imo what makes ventari bad looking is that spam and stack gimmicks are more simple to play and a tinnier rewardable.

When one pulls ventari it’s because group had some member spikes the ventari rev needs to predict due healing delay, stack and fart boons left and right isn’t actually skilled gameplay, it’s just a gimmick for players to get carried with 100% barrier uptime with a lot of boons.

Ventari big heal delay imo should work like patient spirit from gw1.

About rev e-management I always felt rev should have a rune that would provide energy and +1 e-pip.

[Justine.6351]

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Here's a better idea, remove ventari legend so anet stop trying to balance the meme into something 5 people care about.

Oh that's not what op was talking about? Ok let me explain what revenant is,

A cross between elementalist attunements and thief initiative. A bad elementalist never rotates attunements and a bad thief never has initiative. What is a bad revenant? One that never swaps legends and never has energy.

Game too hard.

Ventari isn’t that bad it’s quite nice altough it’s radios of effect could be better, imo what makes ventari bad looking is that spam and stack gimmicks are more simple to play and a tinnier rewardable.

When one pulls ventari it’s because group had some member spikes the ventari rev needs to predict due healing delay, stack and fart boons left and right isn’t actually skilled gameplay, it’s just a gimmick for players to get carried with 100% barrier uptime with a lot of boons.

Ventari big heal delay imo should work like patient spirit from gw1.

About rev e-management I always felt rev should have a rune that would provide energy and +1 e-pip.

Ventari rev isn't that bad, except for the part that even after an update that buffs staff, ventari and salvation for them they still asking anet to buff them with weird energy gain gimics or something. If somebody can't play ventari rev now after the update, they never will be able to which makes me wonder, why don't they just roll a freaking firebrand instead. Afaik all ventari skills are executed the same way, through moving the tablet around to place them. It's like everyone of the ranged skills has a delayed effect. You have to play harder for less effect. Show me a rev that can micro the tablet while also playing their character too. I mean afaik the only time ventari was anything in pvp play was spvp where the tablet was just left on the node lol.

Ventari tablet and skills look cool, just nobody can play it the way it should be played. If the tablet was an offensive mechanic more people might try it and we might see a few players do it. But still, we are talking 1 in a 100 type player being capable of micro for it. Right now I imagine nearly every ventari rev is the bearbow version of a support character. Sitting back at range moving the tablet around and doing little else.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Justine.6351 said:

@Aeolus.3615 said:

@Justine.6351 said:Here's a better idea, remove ventari legend so anet stop trying to balance the meme into something 5 people care about.

Oh that's not what op was talking about? Ok let me explain what revenant is,

A cross between elementalist attunements and thief initiative. A bad elementalist never rotates attunements and a bad thief never has initiative. What is a bad revenant? One that never swaps legends and never has energy.

Game too hard.

Ventari isn’t that bad it’s quite nice altough it’s radios of effect could be better, imo what makes ventari bad looking is that spam and stack gimmicks are more simple to play and a tinnier rewardable.

When one pulls ventari it’s because group had some member spikes the ventari rev needs to predict due healing delay, stack and fart boons left and right isn’t actually skilled gameplay, it’s just a gimmick for players to get carried with 100% barrier uptime with a lot of boons.

Ventari big heal delay imo should work like patient spirit from gw1.

About rev e-management I always felt rev should have a rune that would provide energy and +1 e-pip.

Ventari rev isn't that bad, except for the part that even after an update that buffs staff, ventari and salvation for them they still asking anet to buff them with weird energy gain gimics or something. If somebody can't play ventari rev now after the update, they never will be able to which makes me wonder, why don't they just roll a freaking firebrand instead. Afaik all ventari skills are executed the same way, through moving the tablet around to place them. It's like everyone of the ranged skills has a delayed effect. You have to play harder for less effect. Show me a rev that can micro the tablet while also playing their character too. I mean afaik the only time ventari was anything in pvp play was spvp where the tablet was just left on the node lol.

Ventari tablet and skills look cool, just nobody can play it the way it should be played. If the tablet was an offensive mechanic more people might try it and we might see a few players do it. But still, we are talking 1 in a 100 type player being capable of micro for it. Right now I imagine nearly every ventari rev is the bearbow version of a support character. Sitting back at range moving the tablet around and doing little else.

It is damm painfull in wvw, I tend to use herald and the only whe my team has its healing skills on CD I swap do vebtari, on pve it is quit easy due how stationary mobs are.

[Lonewolf Kai.3682]

Ventari is hilarious to use in WvW choke points and spamming the elite.

[Aeolus.3615]

@Lonewolf Kai.3682 said:Ventari is hilarious to use in WvW choke points and spamming the elite.

And if u have a team that knows how and when to pace for team heals, recovers, push, recover back, ventari imo is really really a great class.And it make a excelent combo when in use with Herald.

@Justine.6351 , ventari was always decent to use i never had issues, even less in pvp, now with the barrier and more armor, just made rev ventari way more easy to use it lol...really way more easy.My only issue is when my own allies dodge(as ignore and continue to the path that kills them...) the tabled and move away from it and avoid the heals LOL.... reason it is a pain to use it.Usually when ic some zone where players are with critical health i swap to tablet and try to heal or if they are overextended i put my tablet at max range i can, but guess what happens? Allies see the tablet (I imagine they can notice it....), and run more into spamzone or go to a completelly diferent direction....and die... :\

IMO tablet colors could be more noteaceable or create some light above the tablet, another alternative would be adding the ventari swap ghost effect above toon also apear above the tablet.