Conditions

[Shirlias.8104]

Oh cmon, you can do better.

[Trigr.6481]

@Shirlias.8104 said:Oh cmon, you can do better.

Speak for yourself.

https://imgur.com/a/1Szzd

[Shirlias.8104]

The fact that players on forum does not like my suggestion doesn't mean nothing dude ( as i wrote before, my suggestion could be total shit, but conditions need to be toned ).

You got cornered 2 posts ago and since then trying to post meaningless stuff.I guess it was you the one who managed to put Thumbs down on every my single reply... i feel bad for you now :dissapointed:

[Trigr.6481]

@Shirlias.8104 said:The fact that players on forum does not like my suggestion doesn't mean nothing dude ( as i wrote before, my suggestion could be total kitten, but conditions need to be toned ).

It gives you a idea when it comes to the quality of your suggestion, and based off that, doesn't look too good, back to the drawing board for you. When it comes to conditions needing to be reduced, that's your opinion, and not a very good one based off your personal bias and assumptions spewed all over this thread concerning conditions and hyrbid builds. Personally, I'd love to see your build in action going up against the things you proclaim to be fundamentally flawed, but I know you won't. Because if you did, your "ideas" would be the least of your concerns.

[Shirlias.8104]

It's not only my opinion that conditions need a rework ( you are here on forum, and you happen to see posts and discussions about em everyday ). but still i understand that you don't like my idea.

Also, if the discussions about conditions are related to the damage and braindead builds, how can the build of the player itself being a problem?Shortly, giving the fact that conditions deal high dmg and are easy to apply, how can the build of the target negate the fact itself?

Btw i was refering to em while i was doing the year of ascention with necro ( cause you have to use more than 1 classes to complete it, i decided to try necro. you can find the build here https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Corruptionmancer ).

As a main thief i don't care cause currently i have to stay away from capture points ( shortbow maybe ) and decap/+1 on fights ( i would die with both physical damage and condition damage ).

[Trigr.6481]

@Shirlias.8104 said:It's not only my opinion that conditions need a rework ( you are here on forum, and you happen to see posts and discussions about em everyday ). but still i understand that you don't like my idea.

Also, if the discussions about conditions are related to the damage and braindead builds, how can the build of the player itself being a problem?Shortly, giving the fact that conditions deal high dmg and are easy to apply, how can the build of the target negate the fact itself?

Btw i was refering to em while i was doing the year of ascention with necro ( cause you have to use more than 1 classes to complete it, i decided to try necro. you can find the build here https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Reaper_-_Corruptionmancer ).

As a main thief i don't care cause currently i have to stay away from capture points ( shortbow maybe ) and decap/+1 on fights ( i would die with both physical damage and condition damage ).

Nice dodge when it comes to me asking you to post footage of your game play. When it comes to threads concerning anything, Quality > Quantity. You're going to have to give very specific examples of why something is fundamentally flawed, and give non biased solutions on how you think it should be handled. So far you've done neither. You called every condition build brainless without giving a reason why "your bias is showing", and going off the deep end saying they should rework the whole system because of it? Get real.

[Shirlias.8104]

it's not a dodge.Unless you are saying that every single thread about conditions ( spvp related ) is made by people who has shitty build or are unable to play.

I gave the build ( if you want the one for the thief is the standard one, but with staff instead ( it only changes the 2nd gm trait ), now stop with complains.Facts.

edit: also we re talking about dmg. what does the fotage mean? if a condition tick 2k sec, the fact that i have the skill on or off cd changes the damage itself? Really. A: It ticks X dmg sec B: eeeee link how you play. A: wat.

[Trigr.6481]

@Shirlias.8104 said:it's not a dodge.Unless you are saying that every single thread about conditions ( spvp related ) is made by people who has kitten build or are unable to play.

Of course not "every thread", but it is a pretty big factor to consider, regardless of whether it's power or condition. Unless you're going to argue that the build you play, mechanical skill, and situational awareness aren't directly correlated?

@Shirlias.8104 said: I gave the build ( if you want the one for the thief is the standard one, but with staff instead ( it only changes the 2nd gm trait ), now stop with complains. Facts.

Anyone can link a build, I want you to link a video of you playing said build against what you claim to be "brainless".

[Aenaos.8160]

Condition damage has reduced combat quality and completely destroyed class balance,and is yet one more factor that reduces build diversity because it makes it almost mandatory to use specific trait lines and skills heavy on conditions cleanse,but adding one more condition related value is not the solution.The day Anet decided to buff Condition damage and change it from a type of DoT to just an alternative to Power type of burst,they put the last nail in the coffin of PvP combat in GW2.Condition damage needs to be reduced,the means of application need to be reduced,and in case that won't happen at least they can remove all amulets that combine power and condition damage values,so condition damage and expertise should be completely separated from power,ferocity,and precision.Although when you take in to account runes,sigils,and boon application like might,build balance will still be quite a fusterclack.

[Cosbuster.4379]

My personal opinion is that conditions as a whole are not that unbalanced. The biggest problem seems to be getting a million of them during team fights, but that has a lot to do with positioning and it's not like power builds with a million traps and cleaving can't destroy you in 3 seconds during a teamfight.

I always thought that the problem is certain builds that synergizea a bit too well with conditions rather than conditions themselves.

[Shirlias.8104]

You got it wrong.I refer to all condition builds using the word "brainless", not part of em.dealing overtime damage

And i don't care if you want to see a video of mine.We are discussing on condi dmg, don't try to move away the thread first with Builds then with videos.

[saerni.2584]

I'll just leave this here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/707/condition-damage-master-guide#latest

@Shirlias.8104

You keep saying brainless without establishing why it is brainless. You aren't very convincing when you attack the games design with nothing more than a generic insult with nothing to back it up.

[Odokuro.5049]

You want to know my opinions on how condition damage should be changed?

1. Make vitality a counter stat to condition damage received (Like toughness is vs. power.)
2. Lower base condition damage and make it so conditions can not critically hit w/o proper investment into precision.
3. Make LoS a thing, meaning, if you can't see them(stealth doesn't apply) and they're a fair distance away, conditions lose their potency/duration.
4. Remove stat combinations like Dire/Trailblazers from the game entirely, or tone down the amount of toughness/vitality they give.

Just a few ideas.

[saerni.2584]

@Odokuro.5049 said:You want to know my opinions on how condition damage should be changed?

1. Make vitality a counter stat to condition damage received (Like toughness is vs. power.)
2. Lower base condition damage and make it so conditions can not critically hit w/o proper investment into precision.
3. Make LoS a thing, meaning, if you can't see them(stealth doesn't apply) and they're a fair distance away, conditions lose their potency/duration.
4. Remove stat combinations like Dire/Trailblazers from the game entirely, or tone down the amount of toughness/vitality they give.

Just a few ideas.

1. Then remove cleanse.
2. See 1
3. No. LoS already effects most of the skills which apply conditions. You don't stop bleeding by hiding behind a wall.
4. First, this is the pvp forum. Those stat combinations don't exist here to reduce bunkering and emphasize faster kills. Second, I don't think condition builds should be easier to kill than power builds.

[Shirlias.8104]

@saerni.2584 said:I'll just leave this here:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/707/condition-damage-master-guide#latest

@Shirlias.8104

You keep saying brainless without establishing why it is brainless. You aren't very convincing when you attack the games design with nothing more than a generic insult with nothing to back it up.

I don't mind if you don't agree.

I consider unskilled something like that or not depending by player's action.Dots, passives which Save you, or Even the critica chance, Though compared to the others is the Less problem here.

Edit: @odokuro: the fact that they sto to work out of range could be really Nice. They will still take you in combat, but without dealing dmg.

Edit2: agree with saerni about Los. I did mean if the player is far away from the enemies.

[saerni.2584]

I'm sorry but I can't understand what you just wrote.

Do you mean you consider the idea of damage over time skillless? You also seem to be saying you consider critical chance (as a statistic?) to be skillless.

In that case, I'd say I disagree that skill is a factor here. Having a sharp sword vs a dull one is skillless. But that's beside the point because it matters what you do with it.

[Shirlias.8104]

You got it right, and I accept that we have different Points of view.

Though, i want that ro be clear, the first zerk meta was total shit.

[omgdracula.6345]

The easiest thing would be that when a condi is cleansed is has a form reapplication defense. Like a delay. Say you cleanse bleed and a necro attacks you with a dagger to bleed you again. Bleed would take says 2 seconds longer to apply.

[babazhook.6805]

As soon as a poster lables another build brainless, or as a cancer they are demonstrating a bias. As such it MY opinion they can not be objective on issues relating to the same.

This no different then real life where a person lables an entire group of people as stupid and then offers suggestions for what is best for them.

[babazhook.6805]

How a person makes a build, the traits and utilities used along with weaponsets selected for a given situation are all a component of MMo's using class based professions where people create their own builds. A person does not play an "active role" in getting 2500 power. A person is not playing an "active role" in getting 22000 health , ferocity at 800 or 2000 healing power. The bulk of this comes from the build template and is PASSIVE and lways on with no further input from the player. Condition builds can not be singled out for this.

I suggest people play another game if they do not want how a person makes his build to play a role because they consider it "skilless" rather then trying to make GW2 into something only a handful seem to want.

[ugrakarma.9416]

@Odokuro.5049 said:You want to know my opinions on how condition damage should be changed?

1. Make vitality a counter stat to condition damage received (Like toughness is vs. power.)
2. Lower base condition damage and make it so conditions can not critically hit w/o proper investment into precision.
3. Make LoS a thing, meaning, if you can't see them(stealth doesn't apply) and they're a fair distance away, conditions lose their potency/duration.
4. Remove stat combinations like Dire/Trailblazers from the game entirely, or tone down the amount of toughness/vitality they give.

Just a few ideas.

Already is, i run power reaper with barbaric amulet, 32k hp. i just wait conditions timeout.

[ugrakarma.9416]

Conditions bring a more options to table than of "hit and dodge" gameplay. And not everyone likes the "bouncy ballerina" gamestyle. And is an obsolete discussion. In gold tier up, conditions classes are easily ganked by otheres. Thats why i back to power reaper.

[Greymarch.3291]

In before someone says "remove conditions", but in all seriousness, Conditions could use some re-evaluation. Burning being the highest damaging should see less stacking potential since it does the most damage. Torment could do damage but only when moving an exception could or could not be made for Revenant since torment is it's primary condition. Bleeding could do less but have lots of stacks so it needs ramp up time to be effective. Confusion could do damage on skill usage and could or could not make an exception only for Mesmer. And Poison....is kinda in a weird spot since it functions as both as a healing reducer and the second highest damaging condition.....needs less stacking like burning that or splitting it into two conditions. That or make poison not stack as fast and change the reduced healing to reduced health value. That so healing isn't getting punished so hard so Basically poison would work as Deep Wounds second attribute instead of its first and it wouldn't stack fast enough but still be a beneficial damaging condition.

[megilandil.7506]

@omgdracula.6345 said:The easiest thing would be that when a condi is cleansed is has a form reapplication defense. Like a delay. Say you cleanse bleed and a necro attacks you with a dagger to bleed you again. Bleed would take says 2 seconds longer to apply.

great idea... and make same with power when you are hit by and auto you can be hit next time with it... great idea

the real problem of condis is the big staking atacks have not big tells and tend to be ranged and in the mess of a big combat it seems that condis apears from nowhere and in a continuos way, its not a problem of balance, its a perception problem while you are figting that one mele clas a necro or a mess are filling wou with condis at safe distance and with poor animation atacks and only real skilled palayers are aware of all enemys on field poor ones like me are centrated on the melee in front and the other next while the one really killing us not even noticed

[MithranArkanere.8957]

I don't see any problem with going hybrid or getting tanky. Only when builds can do too many things at the same time.I don't mind condition spam either. I only mind extreme cases when they can be stack so much players just can't possibly reach to the damage. Humans are not machines, and they can't predict the future either. The game should always keep a rhythm that allows people to reach if they have tools to deal with a situation.Dealing with conditions isn't as hard as most people think. But they think so because they can't really see conditions working.

So the only real problems I see with conditions nowadays are two:

1. You can't really see them. And that only makes it unnecessarily hard for too players to get used to the ebb and flow of conditions. This game is mostly action-based, and not everyone can instinctively make the calculations in their head. "Feel" how long something will take.

   • In most modern games that have any sort of damage over time, specially in competitive ones, the damage that will happen will be shown in the healthbar by coloring a portion of the healthbar that corresponds to the damage that will be lost if the damage over time effects last for their whole duration.
   • In GW2, players can only rely on looking at the stacks of conditions and their numbers in the effects monitor. But those are unreliable. You can't compare 10 stacks pf bleeding that will last 2 seconds by someone with 0 malice and expertise, with 10 that last 30s from someone with over 2000 malice and 1000 expertise. You can't also count on the floating numbers. You can't expect anyone to be able to determine upcoming condition damage from looking names fly over the screen.
   • Because of that, the healthbars need some more improving:
   • Barrier is shown perfectly. No problems here. Beautiful.
   • Direct damage could also use a better indication. When direct damage is taken, the portion of that damage should 'chunk out'. That is, it should be colored with a brighter color and then quickly collapse. This indicates better the damage one is taking.
   • Condition damage should be shown as a distinctly colored portion of a healthbar that indicates the damage that will be taken if conditions last their full duration. Extra conditional damage from confusion would be shown as 'direct', and extra damage from torment will be shown like other conditions when the character is moving (you'll see the conditions chunk of the healthbar increase when moving). While under the effects of Resistance the color of the conditions chunk would change to be closer to the healthbar, indicating conditions are on hold, but still showing the damage they will do when Resistance ends.
   • Healing over time like regeneration and Soothing Mists could be shown too, this time using the same color and hue has a the healthbar, but darker.

   Once health bars are improved this way, players will be able to quickly see what's going on with a character's health with a glance. Barrier, conditions, regens and direct hits, everything. And once you can see what's going on, you can learn to deal with it.

2. After damage conditions were decapped, they finally worked properly against enemies of large health and in large scale battles, but in extreme cases they work too well against players due to over-stacking. This creates situations in which someone can receive so many conditions that they will inevitably go down before they or any of their allies can even react at all. And they can last so long that Resistance may not be enough to give time to remove enough conditions.

   • One possible way to ease the effects of condition over-stacking on players could be staggering condition damage on players past a certain excessive stacking of conditions.
   • For example, if the damage gets so high it can take an entire healthbar in less than a second, it'll be slowed down and deal over a longer time, like 2 or 3 seconds, to give at least a modicum of time to react. But the damage would be dealt eventually anyways unless the conditions are removed.
   • This would only kick in against players, and only for damage over time, keeping all other functions of conditions unaltered.
   • Damage staggering could be even be made a full fledged mechanic. It could be added to some traits and runes. It has to be balanced very well, though. If staggering damage is allowed indefinitely while also being able to recover health consistently, it would allow tanking way too much. So it should be done to work on critical situations, not during extended periods of time.