Jobber.6348 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Herald Shield is one of, if not the most unsatisfying weapon in the game.In its current state, it has a very badly implemented mini heal with weak Protection application and Block which roots the character while giving a weak heal.I would love to make some suggestions to Herald Shield and hope some Revenants out there who adore Shields can pick this equipment up without feeling dumpstered.Shield 4 : Crystal Roar1.5k healConverts up to 2 Conditions into ProtectionCan be traited for 1 more Condition removed and more Protection450 Range AoEShield 5 : WithdrawReduces damage from all sources by 100%Roots and heals 750 per pulse for 4 pulses over 3 secondsGrants Retaliation per pulse, and increases Retaliation damage by 200% during channel can be traited to no longer root, but reduces damage by 75% instead.Synergies:Jalis and RetributionEspecially with Jalis' Stability and Retaliation traits from Retribution to create a more defensive form of Herald.Weakness:Boon CorruptionCC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyKoti.1928 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 Will Crystal Roar gives its effects to allies near you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jobber.6348 Posted June 30, 2019 Author Share Posted June 30, 2019 @"Edge.8724" said:Will Crystal Roar gives its effects to allies near you?Honestly I didn't think that far.My only thoughts were "Current shield 4 is unreliable in applying any of its effects" and "Current shield 5 is really unsatisfying"Maybe it should, to help support team play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I dont like your shield 5 :\IMO retaliation is priceless in pvp it only kills bad players, all they need to remove is the root, and maybe a traitline to share the shield 5 crystal hibernation effect with close allies has a panic team heal, its a block so can be countered with unblockabled, it stil has counterplay.Herald shield 4 is a weird skill, unblockable.... for alies lol, i like your idea, altough 450 range seams lackluster on a game where aoe and range is king, maybe if herald weapons effect could get the trait effect fromdraconic echo? Where that would boostas well shield5. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Za Shaloc.3908 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 @"Aeolus.3615" said:I dont like your shield 5 :\IMO retaliation is priceless in pvp it only kills bad players, all they need to remove is the root, and maybe a traitline to share the shield 5 crystal hibernation effect with close allies has a panic team heal, its a block so can be countered with unblockabled, it stil has counterplay.Herald shield 4 is a weird skill, unblockable.... for alies lol, i like your idea, altough 450 range seams lackluster on a game where aoe and range is king, maybe if herald weapons effect could get the trait effect fromdraconic echo? Where that would boostas well shield5.Yeah shield 4 is "unblockable," but shoot it at a guard with aegis and the projectile gets negated because it eats the boon lol. The skill has such an awkward design. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lahmia.2193 Posted June 30, 2019 Share Posted June 30, 2019 I like the change to skill 4, but 5 seems overly complex and unnecessary. All it needs is for the rooting to be removed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vilesoldier.9826 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 @"Yasai.3549" said:Shield 4 : Crystal Roar1.5k healConverts up to 2 Conditions into ProtectionCan be traited for 1 more Condition removed and more Protection450 Range AoEA nice change if it affects up to 5 allies. Glint ain't selfish. Maybe increase range too?Shield 5 : WithdrawReduces damage from all sources by 100%Roots and heals 750 per pulse for 4 pulses over 3 secondsGrants Retaliation per pulse, and increases Retaliation damage by 200% during channel can be traited to no longer root, but reduces damage by 75% instead.For keeping with the root mechanic, I like how you factored in choices for the player to make. Retal is a little questionable but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about thatThere's a lot of things that can be said about shield changes, but for me, simply removing root for shield 5 is some laaaazy design. Not only will it make it a straight up better version of warrior's Shield Stance, it's also the same kind of band-aid fix that contributes so much to power-creep based balance. In that instead of looking at deeply "rooted" issues with something, they just pile more stuff on there in hopes that something changes.I've made some shield suggestions on my own that I felt stuck more to the theme of Glint than what we have now, but if I really think about it, shield might not even need changes. In the grande scheme of things, there is an ever growing list of things that we can mostly agree that will significantly improve combat and balance in this game. And the way I see it, solving the first things on those lists will in turn put in check the rest. Domino effect. And in that sense, that's why I see "removing shield 5 root" as being at the bottom of that list of meaningful changes.Tbh Anet should just announce something like a Balance season. Like a 3-4 month period where they're communicative with the community and are committed to finally changing balance in major and meaningful ways Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyKoti.1928 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 @GeneralBM.5781 said:@"Yasai.3549" said:Shield 4 : Crystal Roar1.5k healConverts up to 2 Conditions into ProtectionCan be traited for 1 more Condition removed and more Protection450 Range AoEA nice change if it affects up to 5 allies. Glint ain't selfish. Maybe increase range too?Shield 5 : WithdrawReduces damage from all sources by 100%Roots and heals 750 per pulse for 4 pulses over 3 secondsGrants Retaliation per pulse, and increases Retaliation damage by 200% during channel can be traited to no longer root, but reduces damage by 75% instead.For keeping with the root mechanic, I like how you factored in choices for the player to make. Retal is a little questionable but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about thatThere's a lot of things that can be said about shield changes, but for me, simply removing root for shield 5 is some laaaazy design. Not only will it make it a straight up better version of warrior's Shield Stance, it's also the same kind of band-aid fix that contributes so much to power-creep based balance. In that instead of looking at deeply "rooted" issues with something, they just pile more stuff on there in hopes that something changes.I've made some shield suggestions on my own that I felt stuck more to the theme of Glint than what we have now, but if I really think about it, shield might not even need changes. In the grande scheme of things, there is an ever growing list of things that we can mostly agree that will significantly improve combat and balance in this game. And the way I see it, solving the first things on those lists will in turn put in check the rest. Domino effect. And in that sense, that's why I see "removing shield 5 root" as being at the bottom of that list of meaningful changes.Tbh Anet should just announce something like a Balance season. Like a 3-4 month period where they're communicative with the community and are committed to finally changing balance in major and meaningful ways That would be the best thing ever, but I doubt they see this as a potential source of earnings and therefore won't ever touch that.But back to the topic, I agree that the ideas of the skills are nice, but yeah, compared to others, what we really need is a full balance check up in fear of creating more power creep.Still like OP's idea for skill 4 a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
narcx.3570 Posted July 1, 2019 Share Posted July 1, 2019 @"GeneralBM.5781" said:There's a lot of things that can be said about shield changes, but for me, simply removing root for shield 5 is some laaaazy design. Not only will it make it a straight up better version of warrior's Shield Stance, it's also the same kind of band-aid fix that contributes so much to power-creep based balance. In that instead of looking at deeply "rooted" issues with something, they just pile more stuff on there in hopes that something changes. Couldn't agree more...The root is a big part of the flavor of the skill too, and it was even somewhat fair back hen rev was designed because block actually had value then. The problem with the skill isn't the fact that it roots you, it's that almost every class has either a free unblockable attack or free unblockable blanket buff states in their kit now. The op is on the right track turning it into an endure-pain type buff, since it returns real value to the skill. I think it's also important to not make it a complete invulnerability so that it doesn't prevent capture-point contribution, which was always where this skill shined the most. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted July 2, 2019 Share Posted July 2, 2019 @GeneralBM.5781 said:@"Yasai.3549" said:Shield 4 : Crystal Roar1.5k healConverts up to 2 Conditions into ProtectionCan be traited for 1 more Condition removed and more Protection450 Range AoEA nice change if it affects up to 5 allies. Glint ain't selfish. Maybe increase range too?Shield 5 : WithdrawReduces damage from all sources by 100%Roots and heals 750 per pulse for 4 pulses over 3 secondsGrants Retaliation per pulse, and increases Retaliation damage by 200% during channel can be traited to no longer root, but reduces damage by 75% instead.For keeping with the root mechanic, I like how you factored in choices for the player to make. Retal is a little questionable but I'm not nearly as knowledgeable about thatThere's a lot of things that can be said about shield changes, but for me, simply removing root for shield 5 is some laaaazy design. Not only will it make it a straight up better version of warrior's Shield Stance, it's also the same kind of band-aid fix that contributes so much to power-creep based balance. In that instead of looking at deeply "rooted" issues with something, they just pile more stuff on there in hopes that something changes.I've made some shield suggestions on my own that I felt stuck more to the theme of Glint than what we have now, but if I really think about it, shield might not even need changes. In the grande scheme of things, there is an ever growing list of things that we can mostly agree that will significantly improve combat and balance in this game. And the way I see it, solving the first things on those lists will in turn put in check the rest. Domino effect. And in that sense, that's why I see "removing shield 5 root" as being at the bottom of that list of meaningful changes.Tbh Anet should just announce something like a Balance season. Like a 3-4 month period where they're communicative with the community and are committed to finally changing balance in major and meaningful ways The problem with shield is that it's outclassed in every way imaginable between sword and axe. It is subpar in every game mode and that needs to be fixed only by changing how it functions completely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 @phokus.8934 said:The problem with shield is that it's outclassed in every way imaginable between sword and axe. It is subpar in every game mode and that needs to be fixed only by changing how it functions completely.I don't think this is really the case.Revenant offhands each have a specific function they're intended for. Sword offhand is the choice for power DPS, axe for condition DPS, and shield is the defensive option. The problem is that shield just simply doesn't do its job.Compare Glint's shield 4 to guardian shield 4, for instance. SoJ provides a longer-duration protection, aegis, and is fast enough that you can use it reactively against some spikes, and causes enough damage in the process that using it is not a DPS loss compared to autoattacking. Envoy's protection duration is too short to contribute to sustained protection and too slow to use reactively, its heal is weak (and if you were to build a healing power-oriented rev, you're probably better off with renegade than herald anyway), its 900 range doesn't really help when the only ranged weapon available to heralds is two-handed and the projectile is slow, and using it is a DPS loss.Someone earlier compared Crystal Hibernation to warrior's Shield Stance, but in the current environment, the (heavily nerfed) healing on Crystal Hibernation isn't worth the root, and even if it was, Shield Bash is a useful skill in pretty much any mode, while Envoy of Exuberance is a useless skill in pretty much any mode. The direct comparison also ignores that warrior probably has better sustain overall than revenant.Overall, skill 4 is basically useless, and skill 5's root usually makes you more vulnerable rather than providing any real protection (even if the enemy can't punch through the block, they can just wait to deliver their spike after the block expires. Movement is often life in PvP).Personally, I think removing the root is warranted. Back when revenant was in beta, it was explained that Crystal Hibernation could have good healing or it could be mobile, but not both. Now, it has neither. If good healing on Crystal Hibernation is considered unbalanceable, than let's try the alternative.Envoy of Exuberance clearly needs something more substantial. Personally, I like the visual of sending out a little dragon to support your allies, so I'd rather keep that, but the effect needs to be substantially beefed up. What I'd probably do is make the effect of the little dragon similar to the old One with Nature consume, granting regeneration, fury, swiftness, might, and protection to all affected allies. It could possibly also be able to do some damage to enemies in the area, albeit not so much that it becomes an inherent part of damage rotations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phokus.8934 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 That's exactly what I was saying - shield is so underwhelming in any capacity that sword and axe will always be the better option for now.If we look at the shield abilities for guardian, warrior, engineer, and chrono, they all have use in different game modes (especially pvp). Rev shield offers no real defense or protection compared to the other mentioned classes.Shield 4 needs a cc mechanism tied to it and lose its current functionality. Move the protection to shield 5 that no longer roots and pulsates protection for the duration of the channel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 3, 2019 Share Posted July 3, 2019 And there's the difference between what we're saying - I'm not promoting a complete rework. Significant buffs, yes, especially to skill 4 (it really is so bad it might as well just not exist right now), but adding more buffs is still leaving it essentially performing the same function (something you throw out to buff your allies) except making those buffs meaningful rather than two seconds of protection that arrives too slowly to be used for protection against a spike.I don't think slapping a CC onto shield 4 would be the right move - it's reasonable for herald shield to have different functions to the shields of other professions, as long as those functions are actually meaningful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 5, 2019 Share Posted July 5, 2019 @draxynnic.3719 said:And there's the difference between what we're saying - I'm not promoting a complete rework. Significant buffs, yes, especially to skill 4 (it really is so bad it might as well just not exist right now), but adding more buffs is still leaving it essentially performing the same function (something you throw out to buff your allies) except making those buffs meaningful rather than two seconds of protection that arrives too slowly to be used for protection against a spike.I don't think slapping a CC onto shield 4 would be the right move - it's reasonable for herald shield to have different functions to the shields of other professions, as long as those functions are actually meaningful. I have nonissues with shield 4 it’s a strong aoe heal and prot, guardian shield 4 imibthatvway worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 6, 2019 Share Posted July 6, 2019 @Aeolus.3615 said:@draxynnic.3719 said:And there's the difference between what we're saying - I'm not promoting a complete rework. Significant buffs, yes, especially to skill 4 (it really is so bad it might as well just not exist right now), but adding more buffs is still leaving it essentially performing the same function (something you throw out to buff your allies) except making those buffs meaningful rather than two seconds of protection that arrives too slowly to be used for protection against a spike.I don't think slapping a CC onto shield 4 would be the right move - it's reasonable for herald shield to have different functions to the shields of other professions, as long as those functions are actually meaningful. I have nonissues with shield 4 it’s a strong aoe heal and prot, guardian shield 4 imibthatvway worse.Not true, for reasons I've outlined earlier in this thread.The healing from Envoy's Exuberance, assuming you manage to land it in the first place (not saying that's hard, but with a projectile you throw towards an ally that may be trying to dodge attacks, it's not guaranteed either) is about the equivalent of an autoattack chain. That's better than a poke in the eye with a pointy stick, but it's not exactly what I'd call a strong heal. Theoretically you can increase this by investing in Healing Power, but nowadays if you're going for a healing revenant, you're probably better off going renegade for Kalla in most circumstances.Shield of Judgement is almost instantaneous in its effects, so it's much better at reacting to situations, especially since it also provides Aegis to completely block an attack. It also provides better overall Protection uptime, especially with the reduced cooldown trait. It offers enough damage to not be a DPS loss (unlike Envoy of Exuberance, which does no damage) while also offering a lot of interaction with traits (anything that triggers off a block or an Aegis proc, for instance, both of which are common in the guardian traitline), which means you can get SoJ to do a lot of things for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aeolus.3615 Posted July 8, 2019 Share Posted July 8, 2019 @draxynnic.3719 said:@Aeolus.3615 said:@draxynnic.3719 said:And there's the difference between what we're saying - I'm not promoting a complete rework. Significant buffs, yes, especially to skill 4 (it really is so bad it might as well just not exist right now), but adding more buffs is still leaving it essentially performing the same function (something you throw out to buff your allies) except making those buffs meaningful rather than two seconds of protection that arrives too slowly to be used for protection against a spike.I don't think slapping a CC onto shield 4 would be the right move - it's reasonable for herald shield to have different functions to the shields of other professions, as long as those functions are actually meaningful. I have nonissues with shield 4 it’s a strong aoe heal and prot, guardian shield 4 imibthatvway worse.Not true, for reasons I've outlined earlier in this thread.The healing from Envoy's Exuberance, assuming you manage to land it in the first place (not saying that's hard, but with a projectile you throw towards an ally that may be trying to dodge attacks, it's not guaranteed either) is about the equivalent of an autoattack chain. That's better than a poke in the eye with a pointy stick, but it's not exactly what I'd call a strong heal. Theoretically you can increase this by investing in Healing Power, but nowadays if you're going for a healing revenant, you're probably better off going renegade for Kalla in most circumstances.Shield of Judgement is almost instantaneous in its effects, so it's much better at reacting to situations, especially since it also provides Aegis to completely block an attack. It also provides better overall Protection uptime, especially with the reduced cooldown trait. It offers enough damage to not be a DPS loss (unlike Envoy of Exuberance, which does no damage) while also offering a lot of interaction with traits (anything that triggers off a block or an Aegis proc, for instance, both of which are common in the guardian traitline), which means you can get SoJ to do a lot of things for you.But that logic is how rev heal stuff tends to work, tablet heals can miss targets as well.Shield on guard is easy since it’s a cone and shield 5 toon is on center, aoe like shield 4 tend to miss if caster don’t communicate nor precogs wherebtarget is moving, ventari 10k aoe heal work with the same gameplay.I didn’t like kala, I prefer herald besides 10 targets passive 900-1k heal, makes every one have like a personal healing signet on steroid ticking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draxynnic.3719 Posted July 9, 2019 Share Posted July 9, 2019 You can dislike it, but I don't think Facet of Nature: Centaur and shield 4 make up for Breakrazor's Bastion, Soulcleave's Summit, and the Alacrity and other boons that Revenant can provide (outside of WvW, anyway, where the spirits probably get killed too quickly). I don't like grenade and bomb kits on Engineer, but I recognise that optimal engineer DPS usually involves using one or both of those kits (the exceptions typically being static discharge holosmith builds).Even if we were to put that aside, though, that's still leaving Envoy in its current form as only being useful for healing builds: both the heal and the protection are not particularly significant for regular builds. While some weapons naturally lend themselves more to certain roles than others, I'm inclined to think that weapon skills should have a little more versatility than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knighthonor.4061 Posted October 3, 2019 Share Posted October 3, 2019 I like having a unique weapon.So here some suggestions.Shield 4 Envoy of Exuberance need a cooldown reduction. Make this more frequently used since there is no main hand support weapon anyway. Cool down on this should be greatly reduced. no reason this should be 15 seconds recharge.Skill 5 has potential to be very creative if changed a bit.Skill 5 Crystal Hibernation should be made into a chain skill as well as a AoE Support defense skill.Has 3 seconds of duration, I would like the first channel skill to also pulse Aegis to nearby allies, but to keep this balanced, you still cant move, so allies need to stay near you for this. Second chain skill consumes the Shield exploding, knocking back enemies and healing allies nearby and granting fury or retaliation ( two boons that synergize with other specializations in the class) Now this weapon becomes both a Support, and bunker weapon depending on how you build your stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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