The problem with mirage isn't CI or shatters...

[UBcktieDL.5318]

It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.

[mortrialus.3062]

Staff is indeed an outlier as the only ambush that doesn't have either reduced condition stacks, or stack duration like the axe and scepter ambushes.

It's also an outlier in that it can be literally circle strafed and avoided completely.

But circle strafing means jack when you're perpetually immobilized, and stun locked, and stuck eating literally 100% of everything thrown at you.

There isn't a single meta build that isn't going to kill someone with 9 seconds to freely whale on them.

It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.

[praqtos.9035]

@mortrialus.3062 said:It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

[praqtos.9035]

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

[Xervite.5493]

The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.

[praqtos.9035]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

[Leonidrex.5649]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

yep, right now shattering clones on staff is usually DPS loss, becouse ambush clones deal ALOT of dmg. depends on situation ofc. I like how ambush works on axe, having clones ambush with you is nice small bonus, instead of must have. then again axe is kinda shit so i dont know if i should be wishing for axe treatment.

[UBcktieDL.5318]

@praqtos.9035 said:One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

I'm actually fine with sharper images. To get meaningful damage from the bleed stacks, you need to invest into precision, cdmg and expertise (=deadshot or wanderer amulet). It's a heavy investment into damage, leaving the mirage quite squishy and extremely vulnerable to targeted ranged pressure. It's literally the equivalent to marauder/demolisher on power classes, so these builds should have high damage.The problematic part is, spamming clones and casting a few ambushes is enough to have the required damage output. The build has no telegraphed hard hitting skills, and fighting it feels like playing against a mindless spammer who interrupts everything you try to do. mirage should have less emphasis on passive clone play and should be rewarded for hitting shatters accurately.

[praqtos.9035]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

yep, right now shattering clones on staff is usually DPS loss, becouse ambush clones deal ALOT of dmg. depends on situation ofc. I like how ambush works on axe, having clones ambush with you is nice small bonus, instead of must have. then again axe is kinda kitten so i dont know if i should be wishing for axe treatment.They could give the real damage on ambush and make clone ambush lasts only 1s, so to do the damage, you would need to use ambush yourself, not to rely on the clones. Also axe was destroyed and worthless, was my favorite weapon until they took away all damage and cant be casted backwards, RIP.

[bravan.3876]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

CI+Mantra on power is from the general mechanic also broken because it gives you an instant lock down for a burst and the dmg from a chaos or inspiration Powermes is still high enough, in particular because of the might stacks which should not exist in a defensive traitline. The opportunity cost to take defensive traitlines or any kind of (passive) sustain are way too low (not only for mesmer, on all classes, that's why stuff like Holo exist with perma mini burst and high sustain and resustain he can cover by strealth or stabi). An instant lock down should not exist simple as it is. CI needs to get reworked no matter what. Mantra itself or Mantra with not overperforming traits combined (like Powerblock) is no balance problem at all.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

The condi ambushes but also the normal clone autoattacks are insanely overperforming when it comes to condi application that is why Condimesmer (in particular Mirage with double overperforming autoattacks) will always be an issue no matter how much you nerf the traits, weapons or shatters. Compare the power dmg from clones on their autoattacks (around 1-8 dmg per attack) and sword/ gs ambush clone dmg (mostly way less than 1k per dodge/ clone) with the condi dmg from clones coming from staff, axe or scepter. It is the same here, the problem is not IH itself, the problem is the imbalance from mesmer clones when it comes to condis and we already have this imbalance on core Mesmer. Condi clones do 10 times more dmg than power clones with autoattack and ambushes. Clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks need to be nerfed to power lvl. Atm Condimes can play very defensive and let clones do all the work.

Means instead changing Chrono for no reason in a bad way no one asked for and never touch the rly op stuff like Lost Time (still an issue also when Chrono doesn't get played atm) and Mantra of Pain (still an issue also on Mirage and core builds) they need to do this:

1. Nerf condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks to power dmg lvl
2. CI needs to be reworked by deleting the immob (we said give Chill with icd if i remember right @praqtos.9035 ?)
3. no might stacks in a defensive traitline like Chaos. For all classes Anet needs to create way higher opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustain
4. Mantra of Pain still needs cds inbetween charges and inbetween uses and less dmg. We could also consider a remake and turn it into something bahave like the Ele utility Arcane Blast.

Also why Anet detroyed Portal to then give Thief an even better pre nerf version, with no counterplay at all? You can't even see if a Portal got placed or not. Thief can literally bait you without even using it.

Anet balance lately is rly out of control... and i thought it can't get worse but Anet proved me wrong with last balance patch.

I still don't understand why we have 30 new mirage complain traits a day during perma evade Ele got buffed, Holos still perma miniburst and cc with high sustain, Fb+Necros still dominate every teamcomp, Condithieves killing you with one instant steal attack+1 skill if you don't have massive condiremove and so on

[praqtos.9035]

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:

@"praqtos.9035" said:One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

I'm actually fine with sharper images. To get meaningful damage from the bleed stacks, you need to invest into precision, cdmg and expertise (=deadshot or wanderer amulet). It's a heavy investment into damage, leaving the mirage quite squishy and extremely vulnerable to targeted ranged pressure. It's literally the equivalent to marauder/demolisher on power classes, so these builds should have high damage.If its fine then we all should stop complaining about condi builds, case closed. /sThe problematic part is, spamming clones and casting a few ambushes is enough to have the required damage output. The build has no telegraphed hard hitting skills, and fighting it feels like playing against a mindless spammer who interrupts everything you try to do. mirage should have less emphasis on passive clone play and should be rewarded for hitting shatters accurately.Few ambushes is enough? For who? Or you mean few ambushes from the mesmer+3 clones is enough?Can you tell me what skills are "hard hitting" and have no telegraph?F1 direct damage,does nothing at all. F2 gutted, F3 can be used to interrupt something but you probably want to keep your clones for more ambushes,if you have endurance for it, F4 is self defense. With IH you want your clones to be alive, shattering is pretty much pointless

[praqtos.9035]

@bravan.3876 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

CI+Mantra on power is from the general mechanic also broken because it gives you an instant lock down for a burst and the dmg from a chaos or inspiration Powermes is still high enough, in particular because of the might stacks which should not exist in a defensive traitline. The opportunity cost to take defensive traitlines or any kind of (passive) sustain are way too low (not only for mesmer, on all classes, that's why stuff like Holo exist with perma mini burst and high sustain and resustain he can cover by strealth or stabi). An instant lock down should not exist simple as it is. CI needs to get reworked no matter what. Mantra itself or Mantra with not overperforming traits combined (like Powerblock) is no balance problem at all.Its enough for ? Take someones 50% hp and then trying to figure out how to get another 50% or 100% because he would heal ?So enlighten me how its broken, sacrifice real dps traitline in favor of no damage traitline + utility slot where I could take something like cleanse or stealth or SoI?

@praqtos.9035 said:

@"UBcktieDL.5318" said:It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

The condi ambushes but also the normal clone autoattacks are insanely overperforming when it comes to condi application that is why Condimesmer (in particular Mirage with double overperforming autoattacks) will always be an issue no matter how much you nerf the traits, weapons or shatters. Compare the power dmg from clones on their autoattacks (around 1-8 dmg per attack) and sword/ gs ambush clone dmg (mostly way less than 1k per dodge/ clone) with the condi dmg from clones coming from staff, axe or scepter. It is the same here, the problem is not IH itself, the problem is the imbalance from mesmer clones when it comes to condis and we already have this imbalance on core Mesmer. Condi clones do 10 times more dmg than power clones with autoattack and ambushes. Clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks need to be nerfed to power lvl. Atm Condimes can play very defensive and let clones do all the work.Dont you feel like something splipping from your sight ? Mesmer personal damage is garbage because clones/phantasms exists.

Okay I have a challenge for you: find me skills from the mesmer kit that would make condi mesmer viable without clones/phantasms

Mesmer shatters for condi mesmer are pretty worthless (for mirage, chrono will try to spam f2 cuz REWIENDIER!) but for power its very useful as the main "F1" shatter has lowest CD and do only power damage and F2 is pretty much useless outside of boon rip or just abit more damage.Clones applying condition always been there since game release. They wanted it to be condi spec desperately and so we have mirage that everyone enjoy.Means instead changing Chrono for no reason in a bad way no one asked for and never touch the rly op stuff like Lost Time (still an issue also when Chrono doesn't get played atm) and Mantra of Pain (still an issue also on Mirage and core builds) they need to do this:

Yes chrono was killed for the sake of having PoF vastly better than HoT, all HoT specs got gutted/demolished you name it.

1. Nerf condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks to power dmg lvlWont work, condi mesmer have no reliable or any source of condi damage except clones, condi application through shatters were guted.
2. CI needs to be reworked by deleting the immob (we said give Chill with icd if i remember right @praqtos.9035 ?)No icd, why interrupt traits need an ICD? Actually its weird trait and hard to make it "fine" without making too good or too meh for a grandmaster trait. One boon one condition would feel underwhelming...
3. no might stacks in a defensive traitline like Chaos. For all classes Anet needs to create way higher opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustainIf you apply the same on every traitline in the game to be one dimensional and offer only defensive options/offensive/utility in the entire traitline.I will repeat myself : spellbreaker defensive-offensive traitline with might gen-utility option in 1. Engineer traitline responsible for vomiting boons -> Elixirs. Tools that focus on being utility-endurance traitline also provide 10% damage bonus. Etc. If you do for one, do for everyone
4. Mantra of Pain still needs cds inbetween charges and inbetween uses and less dmg. We could also consider a remake and turn it into something bahave like the Ele utility Arcane Blast.You can delete MoP or nerf in any way you please.Also why Anet detroyed Portal to then give Thief an even better pre nerf version, with no counterplay at all? You can't even see if a Portal got placed or not. Thief can literally bait you without even using it.Then you see thieves being UH UH its bad, then suddenly this will become a super meta choice. That crap not just invisible, that also recharge background, you teleport there, decap, place another portal and go somewhere again. (tho its 1 way for 1 person iirc)Anet balance lately is rly out of control... and i thought it can't get worse but Anet proved me wrong with last balance patch.My thread when I said that new team succ and old team had an idea what they are working on...
   it was deleted as its not allowed to say ANYTHING what they wouldnt like about them
   I still don't understand why we have 30 new mirage complain traits a day during perma evade Ele got buffed, Holos still perma miniburst and cc with high sustain, Fb+Necros still dominate every teamcomp, Condithieves killing you with one instant steal attack+1 skill if you don't have massive condiremove and so onBecause they are lost in clones.
   They think if it was only 1 guy gang-banging them its fine
   .
   But when they have to face 1 player and 3 paper-made clones, they think its not ONE VS ONE thus unfair
   . Pretty obviousEdit: some typos, added alternative to CI, tho, its hard to decide what should be there, if should be at all.Also I would like to add : Daze mantra dont need 1.5s daze. 1s should be enough.I think they should solve this problem throug giving Mirage real ambush skill with the damage,so you have to cast it yourself if you want to do the damage and reduce clone ambushes to 1s to be more of distracting than 80% of memser damage. So IH wouldnt be no longer a MUST have to make mirage work. If we want to remove MC functionality then revert undeserved/unjustified nerfs and we have a deal :D

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

CI+Mantra on power is from the general mechanic also broken because it gives you an instant lock down for a burst and the dmg from a chaos or inspiration Powermes is still high enough, in particular because of the might stacks which should not exist in a defensive traitline. The opportunity cost to take defensive traitlines or any kind of (passive) sustain are way too low (not only for mesmer, on all classes, that's why stuff like Holo exist with perma mini burst and high sustain and resustain he can cover by strealth or stabi). An instant lock down should not exist simple as it is. CI needs to get reworked no matter what. Mantra itself or Mantra with not overperforming traits combined (like Powerblock) is no balance problem at all.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

The condi ambushes but also the normal clone autoattacks are insanely overperforming when it comes to condi application that is why Condimesmer (in particular Mirage with double overperforming autoattacks) will always be an issue no matter how much you nerf the traits, weapons or shatters. Compare the power dmg from clones on their autoattacks (around 1-8 dmg per attack) and sword/ gs ambush clone dmg (mostly way less than 1k per dodge/ clone) with the condi dmg from clones coming from staff, axe or scepter. It is the same here, the problem is not IH itself, the problem is the imbalance from mesmer clones when it comes to condis and we already have this imbalance on core Mesmer. Condi clones do 10 times more dmg than power clones with autoattack and ambushes. Clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks need to be nerfed to power lvl. Atm Condimes can play very defensive and let clones do all the work.

Means instead changing Chrono for no reason in a bad way no one asked for and never touch the rly op stuff like Lost Time (still an issue also when Chrono doesn't get played atm) and Mantra of Pain (still an issue also on Mirage and core builds) they need to do this:

1. Nerf condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks to power dmg lvl
2. CI needs to be reworked by deleting the immob (we said give Chill with icd if i remember right @praqtos.9035 ?)
3. no might stacks in a defensive traitline like Chaos. For all classes Anet needs to create way higher opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustain
4. Mantra of Pain still needs cds inbetween charges and inbetween uses and less dmg. We could also consider a remake and turn it into something bahave like the Ele utility Arcane Blast.

Also why Anet detroyed Portal to then give Thief an even better pre nerf version, with no counterplay at all? You can't even see if a Portal got placed or not. Thief can literally bait you without even using it.

Anet balance lately is rly out of control... and i thought it can't get worse but Anet proved me wrong with last balance patch.

I still don't understand why we have 30 new mirage complain traits a day during perma evade Ele got buffed, Holos still perma miniburst and cc with high sustain, Fb+Necros still dominate every teamcomp, Condithieves killing you with one instant steal attack+1 skill if you don't have massive condiremove and so on

mantra of pain deals 1 auto worth of damage, please stop.for power ambushes you forgot to mention several things.1 GS is heavy aoe, that preety much always lands.2 GS is not a projectile ( cant be reflected )3 Its a beam, cant be sidestepped.4 It applies vulnerability.5 Its faster ( no casttime )staff ambush has longer cast time then ambush itself, so you can even interrupt it if you care enaught, doesnt happen with GS.

and if you think clones themselfs apply too much condi dmg, take a class, summon 3 clones and let clones hit him while he afks. calculated dmg.I do agree that needs to be toned down but people are overblowing this out of proportion.

[alain.1659]

Ok condi mirage with ci is bugged and should be nerfed but you guys are really pushing hard to destroy mirage altogether. Gs is op, clones are op, phantasms are op. Mesmer has no unique ability except distortion (which chrono lost after nerf). Alacrity? Renegade has perma. Invis? Even scrapper has better. Portal? Thief has better. Well I dont see anything except playing cheese builds.

Give mes a proper build diversity and remove these buggy builds. And stop giving mes abilities to other professions.

[bravan.3876]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

CI+Mantra on power is from the general mechanic also broken because it gives you an instant lock down for a burst and the dmg from a chaos or inspiration Powermes is still high enough, in particular because of the might stacks which should not exist in a defensive traitline. The opportunity cost to take defensive traitlines or any kind of (passive) sustain are way too low (not only for mesmer, on all classes, that's why stuff like Holo exist with perma mini burst and high sustain and resustain he can cover by strealth or stabi). An instant lock down should not exist simple as it is. CI needs to get reworked no matter what. Mantra itself or Mantra with not overperforming traits combined (like Powerblock) is no balance problem at all.Its enough for ? Take someones 50% hp and then trying to figure out how to get another 50% or 100% because he would heal ?So enlighten me how its broken, sacrifice real dps traitline in favor of no damage traitline + utility slot where I could take something like cleanse or stealth or SoI?

@praqtos.9035 said:

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

The condi ambushes but also the normal clone autoattacks are insanely overperforming when it comes to condi application that is why Condimesmer (in particular Mirage with double overperforming autoattacks) will always be an issue no matter how much you nerf the traits, weapons or shatters. Compare the power dmg from clones on their autoattacks (around 1-8 dmg per attack) and sword/ gs ambush clone dmg (mostly way less than 1k per dodge/ clone) with the condi dmg from clones coming from staff, axe or scepter. It is the same here, the problem is not IH itself, the problem is the imbalance from mesmer clones when it comes to condis and we already have this imbalance on core Mesmer. Condi clones do 10 times more dmg than power clones with autoattack and ambushes. Clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks need to be nerfed to power lvl. Atm Condimes can play very defensive and let clones do all the work.Dont you feel like something splipping from your sight ? Mesmer personal damage is garbage because clones/phantasms exists.

Okay I have a challenge for you: find me skills from the mesmer kit that would make condi mesmer viable without clones/phantasms

Mesmer shatters for condi mesmer are pretty worthless (for mirage, chrono will try to spam f2 cuz REWIENDIER!) but for power its very useful as the main "F1" shatter has lowest CD and do only power damage and F2 is pretty much useless outside of boon rip or just abit more damage.Clones applying condition always been there since game release. They wanted it to be condi spec desperately and so we have mirage that everyone enjoy.Means instead changing Chrono for no reason in a bad way no one asked for and never touch the rly op stuff like Lost Time (still an issue also when Chrono doesn't get played atm) and Mantra of Pain (still an issue also on Mirage and core builds) they need to do this:

Yes chrono was killed for the sake of having PoF vastly better than HoT, all HoT specs got gutted/demolished you name it.

1. Nerf condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks to power dmg lvlWont work, condi mesmer have no reliable or any source of condi damage except clones, condi application through shatters were guted.
2. CI needs to be reworked by deleting the immob (we said give Chill with icd if i remember right @praqtos.9035 ?)No icd, why interrupt traits need an ICD? Actually its weird trait and hard to make it "fine" without making too good or too meh for a grandmaster trait. One boon one condition would feel underwhelming...
3. no might stacks in a defensive traitline like Chaos. For all classes Anet needs to create way higher opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustainIf you apply the same on every traitline in the game to be one dimensional and offer only defensive options/offensive/utility in the entire traitline.I will repeat myself : spellbreaker defensive-offensive traitline with might gen-utility option in 1. Engineer traitline responsible for vomiting boons -> Elixirs. Tools that focus on being utility-endurance traitline also provide 10% damage bonus. Etc. If you do for one, do for everyone
4. Mantra of Pain still needs cds inbetween charges and inbetween uses and less dmg. We could also consider a remake and turn it into something bahave like the Ele utility Arcane Blast.You can delete MoP or nerf in any way you please.Also why Anet detroyed Portal to then give Thief an even better pre nerf version, with no counterplay at all? You can't even see if a Portal got placed or not. Thief can literally bait you without even using it.Then you see thieves being UH UH its bad, then suddenly this will become a super meta choice. That kitten not just invisible, that also recharge background, you teleport there, decap, place another portal and go somewhere again. (tho its 1 way for 1 person iirc)Anet balance lately is rly out of control... and i thought it can't get worse but Anet proved me wrong with last balance patch.My thread when I said that new team succ and old team had an idea what they are working on...
   it was deleted as its not allowed to say ANYTHING what they wouldnt like about them
   I still don't understand why we have 30 new mirage complain traits a day during perma evade Ele got buffed, Holos still perma miniburst and cc with high sustain, Fb+Necros still dominate every teamcomp, Condithieves killing you with one instant steal attack+1 skill if you don't have massive condiremove and so onBecause they are lost in clones.
   They think if it was only 1 guy gang-banging them its fine
   .
   But when they have to face 1 player and 3 paper-made clones, they think its not ONE VS ONE thus unfair
   . Pretty obviousEdit: some typos, added alternative to CI, tho, its hard to decide what should be there, if should be at all.Also I would like to add : Daze mantra dont need 1.5s daze. 1s should be enough.I think they should solve this problem throug giving Mirage real ambush skill with the damage,so you have to cast it yourself if you want to do the damage and reduce clone ambushes to 1s to be more of distracting than 80% of memser damage. So IH wouldnt be no longer a MUST have to make mirage work. If we want to remove MC functionality then revert undeserved/unjustified nerfs and we have a deal :D

Ofc you need to reverse the useless nerfs to shatters and traits giving condi-applications on stuff the player has to do actively when you nerf the clone dmg. But this is the biggest point why Powermes is not op and braindead but condi is for most parts. Too much dmg is put into clones who applied it passively or by just spam dodges (means you can play defensive during clones do the dmg). That is the problem why Condimes is broken and braindead. Not to mention the general op design of condis in this game (also not only Mesmers problem), or tell me where is the logic in being able to burst with condis during you can take more defensive stats not counting in that you still also deal dmg over time makes you able to go afk after hit your stuff during your taget dies from ticks after your burst.Chaos and Inspiration Powermes are still able to oneshot at least light armor targets and thieves. The dmg is still very high, and way too high for the sustain these traitlines give. And yes as said it is not only Mesmers problem, it is on all classes, that you have barely any opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustain, that is one of the biggest points the power creep comes from. I just argue about Mesmer as example because we again have 30 new threads about it.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@mortrialus.3062 said:It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.Where are these OP CI power builds been and where they are now? Playing chaos on power spec means huge damage loss but not the case for cmirage(rather its damage boost beacuse might stacks). Sure the problem lies only in CI/mantra and not cmirage itself ;)

CI+Mantra on power is from the general mechanic also broken because it gives you an instant lock down for a burst and the dmg from a chaos or inspiration Powermes is still high enough, in particular because of the might stacks which should not exist in a defensive traitline. The opportunity cost to take defensive traitlines or any kind of (passive) sustain are way too low (not only for mesmer, on all classes, that's why stuff like Holo exist with perma mini burst and high sustain and resustain he can cover by strealth or stabi). An instant lock down should not exist simple as it is. CI needs to get reworked no matter what. Mantra itself or Mantra with not overperforming traits combined (like Powerblock) is no balance problem at all.

@praqtos.9035 said:

@UBcktieDL.5318 said:It's actually just the interaction between mirage cloak, infinite horizon and staff clone ambush. As long as mirage has a staff equipped and infinite horizon trait, he can probably slot whatever the heck he wants into the 2 remaining trait lines and still be a condi threat. The current CI dueling/chaos build just adds some interrupts and cc pressure to the staff build, but it's not what causes the actual damage. That's still staff clones and it's ambush. If Ci, daze mantra or pistol 5 get nerfed, mirage will still play condi, just with a more defensive/utility focused build (might be dueling/inspiration then).If we actually want to remove that toxic condi mirage playstyle, I suggest reworking the staff ambush or introducing a skill split to reduce the condi application from clone's staff ambush. What I don't want to see is core mesmer or chrono (rip chrono 15.07 btw) getting nerfed even more because of mirage. Power mirage or even condi shatter builds (with illusion traitline) aren't broken at all, and if condi mirage is played, it should be condi shatter since shatters can be evaded and have actual cooldowns, instead of clone ambush spam. Mesmer got hit with so many nerfs over the last months, that IH staff is probably the only good build left for them, and it is super cheesy and annoying to fight. Mirge and mesmer could be much better than this degenerate playstyle.One of the culripts, in my opinion, is condi duration amulets, look how much high base duration conditions benefit from it, especially staff ambush and passive trait in dueling that cause bleeds.Look at SCEPTER ambush as well - without condi duration its damage so pathetic that u can just wait a bit and it wouldnt do anything but then you have sharper images trait and you being unploaded with barrage of critical strikes from the clones that result in HUGE amount of bleed stacks in no time just from this trait alone, immobilize helps to land all your hits and boost damage further for cmirage, while pretty big damage loss on power builds.

The condi ambushes but also the normal clone autoattacks are insanely overperforming when it comes to condi application that is why Condimesmer (in particular Mirage with double overperforming autoattacks) will always be an issue no matter how much you nerf the traits, weapons or shatters. Compare the power dmg from clones on their autoattacks (around 1-8 dmg per attack) and sword/ gs ambush clone dmg (mostly way less than 1k per dodge/ clone) with the condi dmg from clones coming from staff, axe or scepter. It is the same here, the problem is not IH itself, the problem is the imbalance from mesmer clones when it comes to condis and we already have this imbalance on core Mesmer. Condi clones do 10 times more dmg than power clones with autoattack and ambushes. Clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks need to be nerfed to power lvl. Atm Condimes can play very defensive and let clones do all the work.

Means instead changing Chrono for no reason in a bad way no one asked for and never touch the rly op stuff like Lost Time (still an issue also when Chrono doesn't get played atm) and Mantra of Pain (still an issue also on Mirage and core builds) they need to do this:

1. Nerf condi clone autoattacks and clone ambush attacks to power dmg lvl
2. CI needs to be reworked by deleting the immob (we said give Chill with icd if i remember right @praqtos.9035 ?)
3. no might stacks in a defensive traitline like Chaos. For all classes Anet needs to create way higher opportunity costs in dmg for taking (passive) sustain
4. Mantra of Pain still needs cds inbetween charges and inbetween uses and less dmg. We could also consider a remake and turn it into something bahave like the Ele utility Arcane Blast.

Also why Anet detroyed Portal to then give Thief an even better pre nerf version, with no counterplay at all? You can't even see if a Portal got placed or not. Thief can literally bait you without even using it.

Anet balance lately is rly out of control... and i thought it can't get worse but Anet proved me wrong with last balance patch.

I still don't understand why we have 30 new mirage complain traits a day during perma evade Ele got buffed, Holos still perma miniburst and cc with high sustain, Fb+Necros still dominate every teamcomp, Condithieves killing you with one instant steal attack+1 skill if you don't have massive condiremove and so on

mantra of pain deals 1 auto worth of damage, please stop.for power ambushes you forgot to mention several things.1 GS is heavy aoe, that preety much always lands.2 GS is not a projectile ( cant be reflected )3 Its a beam, cant be sidestepped.4 It applies vulnerability.5 Its faster ( no casttime )staff ambush has longer cast time then ambush itself, so you can even interrupt it if you care enaught, doesnt happen with GS.

and if you think clones themselfs apply too much condi dmg, take a class, summon 3 clones and let clones hit him while he afks. calculated dmg.I do agree that needs to be toned down but people are overblowing this out of proportion.

Rofl you rly wanna argue that Powermes is op? IH clones on power weapons are not a problem at all. There is a reason that in mAts or higher ranked tryhards don't play Powermirage. Yes Greatswords has aoe but the biggest numbers come from the Mesmers own ambush not from the clone ambushes. And ofc it is way easier to interrupt gs autoattack cast (it is even a channel, lol do you even know what instant is? Gs auto and ambush is as far as possible away from being instant) or even the slow and well animated sword leap but you better do it on the Mesmer because the clones dmg or effects doesn't even worth the effort. If you have problems to beat a Powermirage not using Choas or Inspiration it is clearly a l2p issue. Mesmers own GS ambush could get a little nerf if you want but that is very low on the agenda of stuff that need to get addressed. All classes have way biggger balance issues than that.Mantra of Pain is a braindead mechanic and for the easy applied instant no animation max range dmg the dmg is way too high. Not to mention it has no cds. It is the same or more, it is even worse with fresh air Ele, the instant range dmg mechanic is just stupid when dmg is that high.Yes i saw what only clones form an afk infight Condimesmer with Singet of Illusion (why ever he used that utility on a condibuild) do, the condistacks from only normal clone autoattack (not even ambushes, the Mesmer didn't dodge a single time) were ridiculous and it was only scepter i was dead before the signet generated the 3. clone (i was doing nothing just to see how fast i die, means i didn't trigger the higher dmg on confusion or torment by using skills or moving).

@alain.1659 said:Ok condi mirage with ci is bugged and should be nerfed but you guys are really pushing hard to destroy mirage altogether. Gs is op, clones are op, phantasms are op. Mesmer has no unique ability except distortion (which chrono lost after nerf). Alacrity? Renegade has perma. Invis? Even scrapper has better. Portal? Thief has better. Well I dont see anything except playing cheese builds.

Give mes a proper build diversity and remove these buggy builds. And stop giving mes abilities to other professions.

I rly don't want to nerf Mesmer into the ground, i just see 30 complain threads addressing the wrong things maybe will result in other useless nerfs neither solve the problems nor give Conidmesmer any higher skillfloor or ceiling. I want a Mesmer with viable but not op and skillful (Power and Condi) builds. That is why i address the stuff that is by logic designed to be low skill. Passive dmg application from clones instead give Mesmer active sources of Condi dmg is just the wrong way. It is the reason why after several big and needed nerfs on weapons Condimes is still an issue even aside from CI.

[SPESHAL.9106]

@"mortrialus.3062" said:Staff is indeed an outlier as the only ambush that doesn't have either reduced condition stacks, or stack duration like the axe and scepter ambushes.

It's also an outlier in that it can be literally circle strafed and avoided completely.

But circle strafing means jack when you're perpetually immobilized, and stun locked, and stuck eating literally 100% of everything thrown at you.

There isn't a single meta build that isn't going to kill someone with 9 seconds to freely whale on them.

It is CI and Mantra of Distraction. Those aren't the only problems with mirage. But they are the main problems right now. And if they weren't using staff they would go Axe or maybe Sword.

The more global issue is "How in the world hasn't ANET noticed this???" There's been a full year and half of mesmer nerfs and STILL they have OP builds. How did mesmers get out of internal testing 1.5 years ago???

[Eurantien.4632]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

Are you kidding? Power mesmer is incredibly good. It's just hard to play. Probably the only build in this game that's properly balanced in that regard.

[praqtos.9035]

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

Are you kidding? Power mesmer is incredibly good. It's just hard to play. Probably the only build in this game that's properly balanced in that regard.More like : are you kidding me, i'm getting outplayed by Zeromis 24/7 thus this damn class is broken. I remember that. Also its HARD to play not because its rly hard, but because you have to OUTPLAY everyone else compared to roflspecs

[bravan.3876]

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

Are you kidding? Power mesmer is incredibly good. It's just hard to play. Probably the only build in this game that's properly balanced in that regard.More like : are you kidding me, i'm getting outplayed by Zeromis 24/7 thus this kitten class is broken. I remember that. Also its HARD to play not because its rly hard, but because you have to OUTPLAY everyone else compared to roflspecs

He is NA don't even bother tbh, they have a weird view on Mesmer and Mesmer utilities. That is from a different meta and because even high rated ppl there tunnelvision very hard and can't dodge the most obvious burst from what i see on NA streams. And Powermes always was a good noobkiller, that is why it is working very well on NA on every rank. And no i am not biased vs. NA i know they are not all bad. But the number of decent and above player is so low that you can be sure to find enough noobs in a team you can take out easy with Powermes no matter how carried by build they are. NA is just dead, sad as it is, no competition at all, it makes no sense to base any balance suggestions or statements about how skilled someone is on experiences made in NA only. In EU we have more than one Powermes i consider way better than Zeromis and still you only play Powermes in EU for some weird honor claim for playing soemthing not carrying you or when you just want to have a much harder time than everyone else on Metabuilds because you are a masochist. I mean yes i say too, when you are very high skilled you can make it work even on higher ranks and mATs EU but you indeed have to play better than everyone you meet the moment player are decent mechanically and have some map awareness. I only agree to Powermes balance from skill vs reward is the most balanced in this game, sadly everything else gives you more reward even when you are lower skilled.

[Eurantien.4632]

@bravan.3876 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:

@praqtos.9035 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@Xervite.5493 said:The only thing that makes people complain about mirage is target breaking. Target breaking is very strong since mirage can produce so many targets on screen.

current metabattle has 0 targetbreaking in its build, ofc you can switch it up but you will lose other things.I for one would be happy if clone condi got nerfed, and mesmer condi got buffed.TLDR : take away damage from the clones and trasnfer to mesmer hismelf.I wish power memer would be good too ;-;

Are you kidding? Power mesmer is incredibly good. It's just hard to play. Probably the only build in this game that's properly balanced in that regard.More like : are you kidding me, i'm getting outplayed by Zeromis 24/7 thus this kitten class is broken. I remember that. Also its HARD to play not because its rly hard, but because you have to OUTPLAY everyone else compared to roflspecs

He is NA don't even bother tbh, they have a weird view on Mesmer and Mesmer utilities. That is from a different meta and because even high rated ppl there tunnelvision very hard and can't dodge the most obvious burst from what i see on NA streams. And Powermes always was a good noobkiller, that is why it is working very well on NA on every rank. And no i am not biased vs. NA i know they are not all bad. But the number of decent and above player is so low that you can be sure to find enough noobs in a team you can take out easy with Powermes no matter how carried by build they are. NA is just dead, sad as it is, no competition at all, it makes no sense to base any balance suggestions or statements about how skilled someone is on experiences made in NA only. In EU we have more than one Powermes i consider way better than Zeromis and still you only play Powermes in EU for some weird honor claim for playing soemthing not carrying you or when you just want to have a much harder time than everyone else on Metabuilds because you are a masochist. I mean yes i say too, when you are very high skilled you can make it work even on higher ranks and mATs EU but you indeed have to play better than everyone you meet the moment player are decent mechanically and have some map awareness. I only agree to Powermes balance from skill vs reward is the most balanced in this game, sadly everything else gives you more reward even when you are lower skilled.

Well maybe someday, we will see some of these mythical EU players come win a monthly against a team who is like 250-0 for W-L. That'd be really exciting to see an EU team score more than 100 points against them. Would be a nice change from the other EU teams that have tried.

I really wish you guys could understand what a mechanically great power mesmer can do. You wouldn't be asking for buffs.

[Tayga.3192]

@Eurantien.4632 said:snip

I mean, Shorts was dueling Cellofrag when ele was really bad and it wasn't one sided.

[Eurantien.4632]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@Eurantien.4632 said:snip

I mean, Shorts was dueling Cellofrag when ele was really bad and it wasn't one sided.

I said mechanically great. Shorts isn't even good.

[Tayga.3192]

@"Eurantien.4632" said:I said mechanically great. Shorts isn't even good.

1) Let me say this first: It's not like every EU player is better than every player in NA in similar ranks.2) I know that when ESL existed, EU teams were winning more than NA teams.3) I don't know how "reliable" will you find this but I played on both servers and I had easier time (I don't have any expansions in my alt) in NA even though I had way higher ping.4) Last but not the least, both servers have a very different meta. Any power mesmer is rarely seen in EU (there are close to no streamer mesmers in EU) while NA is full of them.

[Eurantien.4632]

@Tayga.3192 said:

@"Eurantien.4632" said:I said mechanically great. Shorts isn't even good.

1) Let me say this first: It's not like every EU player is better than every player in NA in similar ranks.2) I know that when ESL existed, EU teams were winning more than NA teams.3) I don't know how "reliable" will you find this but I played on both servers and I had easier time (I don't have any expansions in my alt) in NA even though I had way higher ping.4) Last but not the least, both servers have a very different meta. Any power mesmer is rarely seen in EU (there are close to no streamer mesmers in EU) while NA is full of them.

I get it, for the most part I agree. Generally EU has a higher level of skill than NA - that's my own experience from playing. At the top levels, I think things can be pretty even.

When It comes to mesmer and NA a lot of people play power and I guess stream power (no one actually good streams on NA unlike EU). But this is because Zeromis plays power in an unparalleled fashion. So people know it can be great and also want to get there and try to play it and just... aren't as good.

Of course, everyone and their mother also plays condi mesmer because the effort required to get good at it is so low and it's extremely effective. And that's definitely more in the meta. But people get bored and have dreams of being good, so they try power.

From my experience (and as a ranger main):Condi mesmer is easy and effective.It's easy to beat with the right stuff.Power Mesmers are easy to beat.Zeromis on power is impossible to beat.

I don't think EU and NA metas are that different. I would argue that EU general skill is higher than NA skill.And id also argue that EU doesn't have much basis to talk about Mesmer.

Even a month ago I was getting flamed when I insisted Condi mirage was good and needed nerfs because Flandre and fanboys claimed that mirage was dead after axe and scepter nerfs. And here we are with every thread on the forums complaining about the same Condi mes spec i was complaining about in March.