Thief - Deadly Ambition - Possible Up-coming change

[saerni.2584]

@Irenio CalmonHuang.2048 : For your consideration this thread is better focused feedback than in the megathread.

Deadly Ambition change from just Dagger attacks to all attacks is what annoyed people most. It made the mythical “S/D condi OP” better so of course people complained about it loudly.

Reducing the stacks of poison but allowing more damage over time is more consistent with Anet’s balancing philosophy but doesn’t address why people were complaining about the trait:

1. Applies to all weapons (silly complaint)
2. Gives high uptime of -33% healing with little counterplay other than don’t get hit by anything.

If Anet wanted to address the concerns above:

Deadly Ambition 2.0

• Striking a poisoned target inflicts additional 2 stacks of poison for 5 seconds.
• Cooldown: 2 seconds

This change would mean someone can cleanse the poison and stop this trait from passively stacking poison. However, if the thief plays well and keeps the enemy poisoned they get stacking poison over time which becomes deadly eventually. More counterplay and more focused on the concerns people have expressed with this trait.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

[babazhook.6805]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

I think he meant to say 2 and hit 5 instead. 2 stacks of poison (3 with panic strike) with 3s base duration and 100% extra condi duration from thorns etc is 6s poison on 5s cd, so you get 1s leeway. After the patch, you'd get 2 stacks for 4 seconds on a 2s cooldown with thorns, panic strike etc, so you get 2s leeway which is a duration buff, and potentially keep up 4 stacks of poison if you attack consistently. It's a nerf that actually turns out to be a buff, whichever way you look at it.

Are thorns runes in PvP? for WvW it would be a buff, but I'm unsure if the change wouldn't make more sense in PvP.

[Trianox.3486]

Indeed, I'm using thorn rune in PvP on a P/D build at the moment.

[babazhook.6805]

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

I think he meant to say 2 and hit 5 instead. 2 stacks of poison (3 with panic strike) with 3s base duration and 100% extra condi duration from thorns etc is 6s poison on 5s cd, so you get 1s leeway. After the patch, you'd get 2 stacks for 4 seconds on a 2s cooldown with thorns, panic strike etc, so you get 2s leeway which is a duration buff, and potentially keep up 4 stacks of poison if you attack consistently. It's a nerf that actually turns out to be a buff, whichever way you look at it.

Are thorns runes in PvP? for WvW it would be a buff, but I'm unsure if the change wouldn't make more sense in PvP.

I still do not see it as a buff as far as condition damage concerned. You are not squeezing a whole lot more damage out of this even if you manage an attack every 2 seconds.

We are talking about a single extra stack of poison after all IF those attacks maintained. If that added stack that telling we would have condition users rushing to use Sigil of Blight and doom.

It IS a buff for power as they will have on demand poison for heal inhibit. This does not apply to a condition build as much as they tend to have other poison sources other then the steal. (which is where power generally got it from)

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

I think he meant to say 2 and hit 5 instead. 2 stacks of poison (3 with panic strike) with 3s base duration and 100% extra condi duration from thorns etc is 6s poison on 5s cd, so you get 1s leeway. After the patch, you'd get 2 stacks for 4 seconds on a 2s cooldown with thorns, panic strike etc, so you get 2s leeway which is a duration buff, and potentially keep up 4 stacks of poison if you attack consistently. It's a nerf that actually turns out to be a buff, whichever way you look at it.

Are thorns runes in PvP? for WvW it would be a buff, but I'm unsure if the change wouldn't make more sense in PvP.

I still do not see it as a buff as far as condition damage concerned. You are not squeezing a whole lot more damage out of this even if you manage an attack every 2 seconds.

We are talking about a single extra stack of poison after all IF those attacks maintained. If that added stack that telling we would have condition users rushing to use Sigil of Blight and doom.

It IS a buff for power as they will have on demand poison for heal inhibit. This does not apply to a condition build as much as they tend to have other poison sources other then the steal. (which is where power generally got it from)

I don't disagree with what you said above, I guess my point is more that if the change was intended as a nerf, it didn't work.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

I think he meant to say 2 and hit 5 instead. 2 stacks of poison (3 with panic strike) with 3s base duration and 100% extra condi duration from thorns etc is 6s poison on 5s cd, so you get 1s leeway. After the patch, you'd get 2 stacks for 4 seconds on a 2s cooldown with thorns, panic strike etc, so you get 2s leeway which is a duration buff, and potentially keep up 4 stacks of poison if you attack consistently. It's a nerf that actually turns out to be a buff, whichever way you look at it.

Are thorns runes in PvP? for WvW it would be a buff, but I'm unsure if the change wouldn't make more sense in PvP.

I still do not see it as a buff as far as condition damage concerned. You are not squeezing a whole lot more damage out of this even if you manage an attack every 2 seconds.

I actually don't see it as a buff either. What I'm trying to say is that there is no significant difference except for the fact that this change will make cleanse useless -- which in some sense is a buff I suppose.

[rowdy.5107]

I just don't get it.. I don't see how S/D is supposed to be op? from my experience of a little over 2 years playing d/d condi. d/d seems so much more superior. never had a problem fighting a s/d. Also, you can team fight plus have enough mobility to move from point to point. I guess im just a noob, i cant figure out what the whole fuss is with s/d?

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@rowdy.5107 said:I just don't get it.. I don't see how S/D is supposed to be op? from my experience of a little over 2 years playing d/d condi. d/d seems so much more superior. never had a problem fighting a s/d. Also, you can team fight plus have enough mobility to move from point to point. I guess im just a noob, i cant figure out what the whole fuss is with s/d?

Unblock able attack, boon steal, sw2 allows u to port in and out also the range on s2 kinda make up for swipe range(when traiting DD). Those are the main reasons I'd guess.

[Jugglemonkey.8741]

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@rowdy.5107 said:I just don't get it.. I don't see how S/D is supposed to be op? from my experience of a little over 2 years playing d/d condi. d/d seems so much more superior. never had a problem fighting a s/d. Also, you can team fight plus have enough mobility to move from point to point. I guess im just a noob, i cant figure out what the whole fuss is with s/d?

Unblock able attack, boon steal, sw2 allows u to port in and out also the range on s2 kinda make up for swipe range(when traiting DD). Those are the main reasons I'd guess.

It's evasive, but has more tools vs other builds than what D/D has. S/D in general can counter mesmer quite nicely, so there's that. I never liked S/D condi though, always thought it was outclassed as a condi weapon by shortbow since choking gas was buffed to apply daze.

[saerni.2584]

People don’t like losing to a teleport from out of LoS.

But the hate against condi S/D is probably 70% condi 30% teleport.

[Psycoprophet.8107]

@saerni.2584 said:People don’t like losing to a teleport from out of LoS.

But the hate against condi S/D is probably 70% condi 30% teleport.

This ^Wasnt many s/d complaints until DA trait change making s/d DD easily apply alot of condi stacks

[babazhook.6805]

When you think about it this not a bad solution to builds that might not be able to generate enough power damage out. Rather then go the route of boosting damage which is referred to as power creep, an ability to inhibit heals on an ongoing basis is an alternative. When fighting this build take the approach of "I am fighting a thief therefore my ongoing heals regens and the like will be impacted"

[babazhook.6805]

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

I think he meant to say 2 and hit 5 instead. 2 stacks of poison (3 with panic strike) with 3s base duration and 100% extra condi duration from thorns etc is 6s poison on 5s cd, so you get 1s leeway. After the patch, you'd get 2 stacks for 4 seconds on a 2s cooldown with thorns, panic strike etc, so you get 2s leeway which is a duration buff, and potentially keep up 4 stacks of poison if you attack consistently. It's a nerf that actually turns out to be a buff, whichever way you look at it.

Are thorns runes in PvP? for WvW it would be a buff, but I'm unsure if the change wouldn't make more sense in PvP.

I still do not see it as a buff as far as condition damage concerned. You are not squeezing a whole lot more damage out of this even if you manage an attack every 2 seconds.

I actually don't see it as a buff either. What I'm trying to say is that there is no significant difference except for the fact that this change will make cleanse useless -- which in some sense is a buff I suppose.

Oh it hardly makes cleanse useless. If I can cleanse 20 stacks of bleed , 10 stacks torment and 5 confusion with a cleanse and just take another 2 stacks poison after that cleanse the cleanse was not useless. I can survive with heals inhibited by 33 percent and a couple of poison stacks. Now what it might do is lead to a shakeup in various builds out there. As example a healing signet warrior might rethink the heal they select if facing said thief as some thing mending like might be better. Hide in Shadowsmight be preferable for a daredevil thief over channeled vigor.

[roamzero.9486]

If the problem is sword 2 spam/front loaded bursts then the trait could be changed to work on xth strike instead of guaranteed every hit with a cd. Like 2 stacks of poison on every 4th strike (for example), which would benefit fast attacks like death blossom, sneak attack/repeater, etc that's found more on thief's condi weapons over power.

[babazhook.6805]

@"rowdy.5107" said:I just don't get it.. I don't see how S/D is supposed to be op? from my experience of a little over 2 years playing d/d condi. d/d seems so much more superior. never had a problem fighting a s/d. Also, you can team fight plus have enough mobility to move from point to point. I guess im just a noob, i cant figure out what the whole fuss is with s/d?

It a multiple of things in one package.

The port .There have always been complaints about ports but #2 power or condition tends to draw more simply because it can port from behind obstacles and has a built in return port. Couple this with the INI system where you can pull a few of these off in a row and complaints rise

Bias against Conditions. This is true across the spectrum of Condition builds. They all tend to be referred to as "cheese". Generally the same people complaining about s/d condition have complained about Scourge conditions , Guardian fire builds , Mesmer condition builds. Entire topics have been started asking that damaging conditions be removed from the game because they somehow not fair.

Unwillingness to adapt. Many people have given very specific advice as to how to deal with such builds, be it a change of tactics or selecting different traits. See the thread started today as to how to avoid s/d #2 as example. One common retort is "I do not want to change my build to deal with one singular build". In essence this group feels there should be one build that can deal with any build they might face. This is what leads to "the meta". If a metabuild is not working as it should against a specific build then the latter becomes OP or cheese.

S/d has a bit of each of these.

[rowdy.5107]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@"rowdy.5107" said:I just don't get it.. I don't see how S/D is supposed to be op? from my experience of a little over 2 years playing d/d condi. d/d seems so much more superior. never had a problem fighting a s/d. Also, you can team fight plus have enough mobility to move from point to point. I guess im just a noob, i cant figure out what the whole fuss is with s/d?

It a multiple of things in one package.

The port .There have always been complaints about ports but #2 power or condition tends to draw more simply because it can port from behind obstacles and has a built in return port. Couple this with the INI system where you can pull a few of these off in a row and complaints rise

Bias against Conditions. This is true across the spectrum of Condition builds. They all tend to be referred to as "cheese". Generally the same people complaining about s/d condition have complained about Scourge conditions , Guardian fire builds , Mesmer condition builds. Entire topics have been started asking that damaging conditions be removed from the game because they somehow not fair.

Unwillingness to adapt. Many people have given very specific advice as to how to deal with such builds, be it a change of tactics or selecting different traits. See the thread started today as to how to avoid s/d #2 as example. One common retort is "I do not want to change my build to deal with one singular build". In essence this group feels there should be one build that can deal with any build they might face. This is what leads to "the meta". If a metabuild is not working as it should against a specific build then the latter becomes OP or cheese.

S/d has a bit of each of these.

ahhh ok I understand now. thanks for the explination!

[rowdy.5107]

makes sense now that I kind of understand how it works. thanks for the responses everybody. In my experience fighting an s/d thief. when they skill2 to you, ill start slowly moving while fighting towards their original spot. so when they skill2 back. ive already closed the distance quite a bit. usually about that time they are in some trouble. I guess you are right babazook. people need to learn to adapt to new builds or they are gonna be left in the dust.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@rowdy.5107 said:makes sense now that I kind of understand how it works. thanks for the responses everybody. In my experience fighting an s/d thief. when they skill2 to you, ill start slowly moving while fighting towards their original spot. so when they skill2 back. ive already closed the distance quite a bit. usually about that time they are in some trouble. I guess you are right babazook. people need to learn to adapt to new builds or they are gonna be left in the dust.

One other thing is the cheap cleanse from Sword #2 Infiltrator's Return. That's actually the main reason I pick Sword over Dagger.

[Sir Vincent III.1286]

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Sir Vincent III.1286 said:

@babazhook.6805 said:

@Trianox.3486 said:Just keep in mind that with the current 5 sec cooldown, you can very well hit at sec0, sec4, sec6 or 7...and therefore loose efficiency too just like you would with a 2sec cooldown. If you land many successful hits within 5 sec which does not trigger new poison application, but misses at the 5th, 6th secondes because your target evades, it is still not that great.

5sec is more tactical, 2sec is more spammy.

Understood , but that said NEEDING to hit a target every 5 seconds is still easier then needing to hit a target every 2 seconds. The main advantage of a 2 second cooldown over a 5 is after a cleanse by the enemy you can get that poison on again quicker but again this more about inhibiting a heal then it about accruing more overall stacks relative to the other. My main point is that this change will not translate to a rush of more players into condition builds. It much more likely to result in more power builds dropping mug to take this over mug.

You don't really need to hit a target every 2s, although ideal it's not necessary. Even if you hit 4 out of 5 tries within 10s, this proposed change will still put you ahead of the current iteration.

As the math shows above you are talking a minimal difference. It comes to less then 3 percent IF those 4 attacks are made every two seconds and again that important. It not hitting with 4 attacks in 10 seconds. It is making sure those 4 attacks are two seconds apart. I can hit with the full 5 attacks out of a singular sneak attack in a second but that still only one trigger.

Again in a typical fight the added damage from conditions due to the number of stacks obtained by the proposed version over the old will not be of any great consequence.

With Potent, you have a 1.5 second margin of error which make it unnecessary to hit every 2 seconds. If you take Runes of Thorns, that extends the duration further to 5 seconds, which gives you way more leeway when trying to hit your target. The ICD will go out of CD before your poison drops off.

How do you manage to extend a duration to 5 seconds for that poison? You seem to suggest you can do this.

I think he meant to say 2 and hit 5 instead. 2 stacks of poison (3 with panic strike) with 3s base duration and 100% extra condi duration from thorns etc is 6s poison on 5s cd, so you get 1s leeway. After the patch, you'd get 2 stacks for 4 seconds on a 2s cooldown with thorns, panic strike etc, so you get 2s leeway which is a duration buff, and potentially keep up 4 stacks of poison if you attack consistently. It's a nerf that actually turns out to be a buff, whichever way you look at it.

Are thorns runes in PvP? for WvW it would be a buff, but I'm unsure if the change wouldn't make more sense in PvP.

I still do not see it as a buff as far as condition damage concerned. You are not squeezing a whole lot more damage out of this even if you manage an attack every 2 seconds.

I actually don't see it as a buff either. What I'm trying to say is that there is no significant difference except for the fact that this change will make cleanse useless -- which in some sense is a buff I suppose.

Oh it hardly makes cleanse useless. If I can cleanse 20 stacks of bleed , 10 stacks torment and 5 confusion with a cleanse and just take another 2 stacks poison after that cleanse the cleanse was not useless. I can survive with heals inhibited by 33 percent and a couple of poison stacks. Now what it might do is lead to a shakeup in various builds out there. As example a healing signet warrior might rethink the heal they select if facing said thief as some thing mending like might be better. Hide in Shadowsmight be preferable for a daredevil thief over channeled vigor.

lol, some people who just cleansed a bunch of conditions only to receive another stack of poison 2s later will sure feel that their cleanse is useless. The entire point is, it continuously puts them on a defensive. I saw this first hand last night when I was playing with my Scourge. Instead of poison, I'm applying burning and they all just have to run away to recuperate because they just can't handle the pressure. If they cleanse, they will only find another stack afterwards. This is exactly what will happen with this change. The Thief will be able to apply the same amount of pressure as my Scourge. The only difference, my Scourge have 20k HP and 3k armor, while the Thief, well, squishy.

And I'm talking about the majority of people who are not using your build baba, lol.

[Exitus.3297]

Less poison burst but with a lower cooldown?

I don't really dislike the change. I get what they are going for and it isn't like it is a massive change. I prefer it when ANet takes baby steps instead of overshooting.

When ANet overshoots, everything gets shaken up in weird ways. That's how we get changes like Swipe.

[Elxdark.9702]

is it so hard to remove the immobilize part of IS and add something else like cripple or even chill???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????I mean anyone with a single brain cell can tell the problem isn't the poison itself but how it is applied, guess anet has a hamster working in pvp.

that way you remove condi s/d thief from the earth while having other condi builds viable without killing them because 1 of them is overperforming.

[Sindrener.1592]

@Elxdark.9702 said:is it so hard to remove the immobilize part of IS and add something else like cripple or even chill???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????I mean anyone with a single brain cell can tell the problem isn't the poison itself but how it is applied, guess anet has a hamster working in pvp.

that way you remove condi s/d thief from the earth while having other condi builds viable without killing them because 1 of them is overperforming.

tbh many things can be done to remove condi s/d thief, which in fairness they should too, that build can be played by anyone with their feet its that easy, its overperforming and is so easy to play.

1 Make steal only put 1 stack of poison

2 make poison application skillfull (in example, land interrupts on a target to add poison stacks) not just sword#2 into steal+dodge

would also argue to reduce sword#2 port again back to 900, 1.2k makes it really crazy easy for a thief to jump you from miles away as well

[saerni.2584]

@bluri.2653 said:

@Elxdark.9702 said:is it so hard to remove the immobilize part of IS and add something else like cripple or even chill???????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????I mean anyone with a single brain cell can tell the problem isn't the poison itself but how it is applied, guess anet has a hamster working in pvp.

that way you remove condi s/d thief from the earth while having other condi builds viable without killing them because 1 of them is overperforming.

tbh many things can be done to remove condi s/d thief, which in fairness they should too, that build can be played by anyone with their feet its that easy, its overperforming and is so easy to play.

1 Make steal only put 1 stack of poison

2 make poison application skillfull (in example, land interrupts on a target to add poison stacks) not just sword#2 into steal+dodge

would also argue to reduce sword#2 port again back to 900, 1.2k makes it really crazy easy for a thief to jump you from miles away as well

I thought only the return port was 1200. I don’t play this but the wiki says it already is 900 for the initial port.

Disagree with on stun. It limits it to too few builds and I don’t like making condi application an interrupt because it is a very niche definition of skill (especially with all the stability floating around 90% of the time even a skillful daze wouldn’t trigger the application). That’s why condi thief doesn’t generally take the existing torment on interrupt trait, it’s just not effective.

I’d rather move Deadly Ambition to apply poison on Stealth Attacks or apply more poison to targets under 50% health.

But I do think the main issue is with the sword teleport and would suggest adding line of sight to one port. If you did that on the return you could port from behind a wall but the return port would leave you on the other side of the wall. That leaves the thief open to counterplay and you can’t just reapply conditions endlessly from behind a wall.