Staff Elementalist's (non-existent?) place in post-patch PvP

[Swagg.9236]

tl;dr: this patch is probably the only chance it has to have a real role, but it would still need a lot of work, and it doesn't really need to be nerfed as much as the patch preview says it does. This is about giving staff ele a valued role in a team with possibly the only chance that it will ever get.

The coming update seeks to nerf all damage across the board (which is fine for basically every class and build), but one spec in particular stands to lose far more than just damage. Thinking about how one plays most classes compared to the staff Elementalist, the former generally rely on map knowledge and line-of-sight gimmicks in order to engage quickly and force pressure onto an opponent (i.e. teleporting through walls/terrain, striking with instantaneous, no-projectile ranged attacks, exposing one's self to LoS while under the aegis of damage or effect negation) and mostly employ attacks that utilize GW2's massive melee hitboxes or the tab-target system in order to inflict damage within their prescribed ranges in a rather reliable manner. On the other hand, the Staff Elementalist build relies on mechanics which force out player tactics that are more limited than the generic playstyles featured by other builds: timing, area control, and CC in order to reliably damage targets; damage effects with 1-2s delays; and a skill which, while powerful, requires a profound amount of set-up compared to any other "big hit" ability in GW2. For instance, it's almost irresponsible to make a category of balance principles called "big hit skills" and put something like a 1s-activation melee attack right alongside [Meteor Shower] or, for heaven's sake, even [Lava Font], particularly when many melee attacks are supported by builds which employ teleports and damage negation in order to position properly for the attack.

Effectively, most damage sources of Staff Elementalist, although cast from range, have built-in delays which are far more punishing than any other build that uses ranged or melee attack. This isn't exactly a bad thing at all--if anything, this is probably how the game ought to work in most cases--however, it does mean that the attack range employed by Staff Elementalist (1200 units at max) is often far more permeable beyond the point of real effectiveness. The combination of delayed attacks, AoEs with fixed locations, and projectiles on 0.75-1s activation times often leaves the Staff Elementalist no choice but to burn defensive abilities, movement abilities, and ward lines in order to simply achieve basic levels of threatening damage; or just to merely survive any other class pressing the attack. Moreover, in order to deal respectable damage, the Staff Elementalist generally has to layer multiple skills over a single target, which gives their DPS something unique among classes in GW2: a warm-up period (i.e. Lava Font doesn't follow anyone around, and by itself, it will never reliably kill anything). Again, this is not at all a bad thing, but it means that the effort going into Staff Elementalist damage often involves a lot more baseline effort and time investment than most other classes which often have their no-delay abilities passively aimed for them. To that end, I argue that nerfing Staff Elementalist damage to such a degree, even if it is in-line with an overall, holistic design philosophy, is probably not the best option right now. I'd agree with a mild damage trimming just to keep pace with the rest of the gameplay cadence, but just not to the degree which is discussed in the patch preview.

So, instead, here's a list of suggestions in response to the patch preview. Many of these are things that I've already put forth as ideas before, but now they are just adjusted for the patch preview. Aside from damage changes, there are also a number of suggestions which mainly aim to transition certain skills from clunky or superfluous effects into more ergonomic abilities while adding some niche, anti-meta utility for PvP. Elementalist staff is one of the most balanced weapon sets in the entire game, and I don't really want to mess with that. That said, the PvE-centric nerfs to Lava Font and Meteor Shower were utter trash, and it's worth addressing that.

FIRE

![Fireball] (1)

!* Damage modifier changed from [current/projected] to (0.7).

![Lava Font] (2)

!* Damage modifier changed from [current/projected] to (0.6).

![Flame Burst] (3)!Activation: ½s / Recharge: 10s!Burn foes at the target location. After a delay, the target location explodes, damaging foes. This explosion deals bonus damage to foes per stack of burning on them.! Number of targets: 5! Burning|2| (6s): [damage]! Delay: 1s! Explosion damage: (0.6)! Bonus explosion damage per burning stack: 10%! Maximum bonus damage: 250%! Radius: 180! Range: 1200

!This skill is now a ground-targeted ability.

![burning Retreat] (4)!Recharge: 8s!Quickly roll backward, leaving behind lines of fire that burn foes at every interval.! Damage: (0.6)! Burning (3s): [damage]! Interval: 1s! Duration: 2s! Evade: ¾s! Maximum Count: 2! Count Recharge: 30s! Combo Field: Fire

!Huge buff to the fire line damage (would be on par with the buffed [Lava Font]) which is off-set by a lower duration. The ammo feature adds further flexibility to its PvP usage (not just as increased mobility, but also as a field hazard) and turns it into a strong PvE DPS staple. Evade period shortened by a small amount.

![Meteor Shower] (5)

! Maximum damage modifier value per meteor shower strike changed from [current/projected] to (1.25).! Minimum damage modifier value per meteor shower strike increased from (0.32) to (0.6).

WATER

![Water Blast] (1)!Activation: 1s!Strike with a cone of water that heals allies and damages foes. Heal more and deal more damage the closer you are to targets.! Number of allies: 5! Number of targets: 5! Maximum Damage: (0.5)! Minimum Damage: (0.1)! Maximum Healing: 250 (0.2)! Minimum Healing: 89 (0.2)!* Range: 600

!Uses the same dynamic scaling mechanic as the Engineer [blunderbuss]'s cone attack. Should be re-worked to respect line of sight as does the current [blunderbuss]. Restricting this skill's most effective range to melee without forcing it to rely on tab-targeting (and also keeping it to around a 1.25-1.4s resolution cycle due to the 1s activation time) keeps it strong when used properly without becoming a constant nuisance for opponents.

![ice Spike] (2)

! Damage modifier changed from [current/projected] to (1.15).! Radius reduced from 300 to 240.! Now recharges instantly if it strikes a chilled target (skill would still retain about a minimum 2s recharge due to the attack delay).! Vulnerability stacks changed from [current/projected] to 10 stacks for 5s.

!Honestly, I'd argue that this skill requires no real changes at all outside of maybe reducing its AoE radius rather than reducing its damage, but it's just so EGREGIOUSLY BORING. IT'S SO BORING!! I want it to be something entirely different than "Draw another circle on the ground," but it's hard to say what it ought to be or what purpose it ought to serve.

![Geyser] (3)

! Baseline Pulse Heal changed from [current/projected] to 404.! Healing Modifier per Pulse Heal changed from [current/projected] to (0.2)

![Frozen Ground] (4)!Recharge: 15s!Foes at the target area initially lose defensive boons. Target area inflicts chill and damages downed foes at every interval.! Number of targets: 5! Initial Boons Removed: [stability], [Resistance]! Chilled (2s): -66% Skill Recharge Rate, -66% Movement Speed! Downed Health Damage: 5%! Interval: 1s! Duration: 4s! Radius: 240! Combo Field: Ice! Maximum Count: 2! Count Recharge: 60s! Range: 1200! Unblockable

!The “Downed Health” damage is equivalent to 5% of a respective downed player's total HP, and it is applied simultaneously with the chill effect. If possible, move the chill/downed HP damage effects to pulse at the end of each second of this skill's duration (4 ticks total; 8s chill total; 20% downed damage HP total); however, leave the initial boon strips to occur immediately at the skill resolves at the target location (this gives opponents a second to respond to the skill's placement in open space, but still delivers a powerful effect). All this said, a far more powerful effect demands a slightly shorter duration as well as a smaller AoE radius.

AIR

![Gust] (3)!Activation: 1s / Recharge: 20s!Release a piercing air burst that knocks foes backward. If you fully channel this skill and release it, you instead whirl forward, knocking back foes along your path.! Number of targets: 5! Air burst knockback: 400! Air burst range: 1200! Pierces! Number of Whirl Impacts: 8! Whirl knockback: 400! Whirl radius: 130! Whirl evade: ½s! Whirl range: 900! Combo Finisher: Whirl

!This skill's minimal channel time will be ¼s (same as its current cast-time). If a player were to simply press and release the skill button immediately, this skill would execute immediately after reaching the minimal channel time threshold, resulting in the current iteration of the skill. The listed “activation time” in the tool-tip denotes the “full channel” which is required for the player to perform the whirl attack. The channel can be maintained at full charge, allowing a player to charge up the whirl, hold down the button and then deploy it later upon releasing the button.!The whirl attack's movement behavior and travel distance are respectively identical to the Fiery Greatsword skill [Fiery Whirl].

![Windborne Speed] (4)

! Activation reduced from ¼s to 0 (instant). Can now be used in midair or while CC'ed.! Now also grants superspeed (3s) to affected allies.!* Radius increased from 240 to 360.

![Chain Lightning] (1), [Lightning Surge] (2), and [static Field] (5)

!Damage reductions here were mostly fine. Static Field naturally falls in line with the sweeping adjustment to "Damage which deals hard CC," while the other two don't really suffer much in being knocked down a peg (one being a boring autoattack while the other at least applies a blind from up to 1200 range without a projectile, which can be very strong in certain situations).

EARTH

![stoning] (1)!Activation: 1s!Swing your staff, striking foes in melee while launching a stone at your target. If you strike a weakened foe with your staff, you and nearby allies gain Stone Striker.! Number of targets per attack: 3! Stone damage: (0.333)! Stone impact radius: 120! Stone range: 1200! Staff strike damage: (0.7)! Staff strike range: 150! Stone Striker (10s): +150 Power! Stone Striker radius: 300!* Number of Allies: 5

!The "Number of targets per attack" tool tip applies to both the stone projectile and the melee attack respectively. This skill could potentially hit up to 6 unique targets, or strike twice upon 3 targets respectively, depending on the player's positioning and selected target.!Stone Striker is a unique buff which does not stack. Any new instance of Stone Striker applied to a target already under its effects will simply overwrite the old instance (thus refreshing the duration in the process).!High damage on the melee strike justified by "low-armor/low-HP class must strike in melee with a 1s-activation skill in order to be rewarded with powerful effect." Most classes with sets built for melee often feature equivalent or higher damage modifiers on their melee attacks. For Staff Elementalist, repeatedly swinging in melee with this skill is not going to be a sustainable action (except maybe in PvE).

![Eruption] (2)

! Activation reduced from 1¼s to ¾s.! Recharge reduced from 6s to 1½s.! Now has an ammo count of 2. Count recharge set to 10s.! Radius reduced from 300 to 240.! Damage coefficient changed from [current/projected] to (1.25).! Crippled duration reduced from 3s to 2s.!* Bleeding duration reduced from 12s to 10s.

![Transmute Earth] (3b)!Activation: ½s / Recharge: 10s!Detonate your magnetic aura and knock back adjacent foes. Grant barrier to adjacent allies.! Number of targets: 5! Damage: (0.1)! Knockback: 400! Unblockable! Number of allies: 5! Barrier: 2487 (0.125)!* Radius: 180

![unsteady Ground] (4)

!* Recharge reduced from 30s to 25s.

![shockwave] (5)!Activation: ¾s / Recharge: 25s! Slam the ground and create a cascading shockwave. All impacts immobilize foes. The middle impact also inflicts weakness and removes defensive boons from foes. The closest impact inflicts all prior effects and also blinds and dazes foes.! Number of targets: 5! Number of impacts: 3! Impact damage: (0.1)! Immobilize (2s): Unable to move.! Weakness (4s): Endurance regeneration decreased by 50%; 50% of hits are Glancing Blows (50% damage)! Boons Removed: [stability]; [Resistance]! Blindness (5s): Next outgoing attack misses.! Dazed: 1s!* Range: 1200

!Hitbox, attack animation and skill usage now equivalent to Revenant [Coalesence of Ruin]. Use the Elementalist [Ring of Earth] model asset for each impact animation.

DARK, NECESSARY EVIL FOR DPS STAFF BUILDS

!Arcane Resurrection revival pulse percentage changed from [current/projected] to 2.5%.

!You're going to have to do something better than the current change to basically delete Arcane Tier-Two from the game, considering that everyone would probably just be pigeon-holed into picking a trashy, passive, [Arcane Shield] proc. Moreover, the 2.5% per tick on its own probably wouldn't be all that effective, however a 5% per tick might be enough for it to be viable. The trade-off with the 5%, however, is that YOU ARE USING A STAFF ELEMENTALIST, and you probably won't be able to pull your weight on a team if all you're trying to do is clutch a gimmick-revive on a teammate every once in a blue moon (considering how 5% probably wouldn't still be enough to out-pace focused cleave; and even with the current 14% tick combo, timing is pretty crucial). Furthermore, considering how this entire post-patch period is supposedly going to be some sort of trial-and-error period with rapid adjustments, it'd be worth experimenting with some of these things. I'd even argue that a 3% revival per tick wouldn't be too overtuned.

[MyPuppy.8970]

I agree with the statement. I like the proposed changes but i doubt they will be considered. I'd be happy with just air aa not being a projectile and moving faster.And maybe a new condition exclusive to eles (maybe engie too) "electrified" (walking in water fields causes lighting to strike)

[Downstate.4697]

All the skills going forward is because staff is a wvw weapon.

Interesting ideas and I can tell a lot of effort was put in.

Things that I would consider.

Burning retreat doesn't need 2 charges.

The gust changes alone would improve map mobility and I like the idea.

Chill field does not need charges Ice spike changes are fine.

Earth melee auto is a fantastic idea. It doesn't need to provide additional damage from allies. It would just need to do like 2s of weakness every 3rd auto and its be fine.

Transmute earth. Dont like it. Why should it be better than other auras?

Shockwave. Be better to make it a ranged aoe but yeah I'm picking up what you're throwing down.

Good job op

[Sunshine.5014]

What Staff Ele needs is a big reduction on animation/after cast time. Every skill on Staff Ele is clunky and takes way too much time to cast. That means it's inherently not suitable for fast pace PvP. Need condition cleanse? Press Water #5. It takes 1.5s for the whole thing to finish casting. By that time, you might already be dead.

Staff needs lower cast time. 1/2s max for normal skills.

[storm.3120]

@"Sunshine.5014" said:Staff needs lower cast time. 1/2s max for normal skills.All "normal" skills cast time is 3/4 fyi.

[MyPuppy.8970]

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Sunshine.5014" said:Staff needs lower cast time. 1/2s max for normal skills.All "normal" skills cast time is 3/4 fyi.

Most ele staff skills can be evaded by stepping aside though. It's like fighting perma evade specs.

[storm.3120]

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Sunshine.5014" said:Staff needs lower cast time. 1/2s max for normal skills.All "normal" skills cast time is 3/4 fyi.

Most ele staff skills can be evaded by stepping aside though. It's like fighting perma evade specs.Why you wont just ask instacasts alrdy? Poor staff has melee/small radius attacks that does close to no damage /s

[alain.1659]

Staff fields and blasts should also be improved. In a world where everyone can poop boons with one button, executing a combo in the heat of battle should yield more than... well than this current result at least.

Good ideas op. Staff needs a buff and a rework to its cast times/ after casts.

[Paradoxoglanis.1904]

Staff is such a fun weapon, it would be interesting to see some of the changes suggested. If anything, it would be nice if they increased projectile speed slightly and improved the hitboxes on some of the skills. The weaver dual skills in particular could really benefit from getting looked at.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

it would be cool if certain traits were stronger based on what weapon you have.

[MyPuppy.8970]

@Odik.4587 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Sunshine.5014" said:Staff needs lower cast time. 1/2s max for normal skills.All "normal" skills cast time is 3/4 fyi.

Most ele staff skills can be evaded by stepping aside though. It's like fighting perma evade specs.Why you wont just ask instacasts alrdy? Poor staff has melee/small radius attacks that does close to no damage /s

That's not what i'm advocating; staff is balanced precisely because of that. Every skill gives enough reaction time and counterplay to opponents. If all specs and skills were designed like eles staff, we wouldnt be in present situation. I can't remember a nerf thread about any staff ele skill. It only got nerfed because of Golem Association.

[Arheundel.6451]

Lol....players have been asking to buff skills like dragon's tooth since 2012....and here people are asking for buffs on staff in 2020...like you have more chance finding gold and diamonds digging in your own yard than anet buffing ele properly

[Swagg.9236]

@"FrownyClown.8402" said:All the skills going forward is because staff is a wvw weapon.

Interesting ideas and I can tell a lot of effort was put in.

Things that I would consider.

Burning retreat doesn't need 2 charges.

Considering how far the global damage benchmarks have fallen in PvP/WvW, I could agree. These changes were mostly conceived probably a year ago or something. However, I still want to buff the fire line to be a real hazard. At some point, just being able to evade for a hot second while attuned to Fire isn't enough for Staff Ele.

Chill field does not need charges Ice spike changes are fine.

The reason behind the Frozen Ground changes were mainly to give Staff Ele a reliable means of fighting the generic builds which just slap stability and hit-negation onto themselves while running around and swinging in a fight. With a 240 radius, short duration, 1s-delay on the chill pulses, and a decently high recharge period, these sorts of changes would probably not be too oppressive, but they would definitely allow Staff Ele to ground out a valuable niche for itself in team fights and even rotation duels.

I can understand why someone might think it's "unneeded," though. The chill field is already super strong, and making it even more powerful in a very specific way might scare someone into thinking that it's overtuned. However, considering how easy it is for nearly every class to just walk through all hazards put down by Staff Ele, I felt that it really needed at least one turnabout skill. Admittedly, Shockwave also has this same sort of "remove defensive boons" attribute to it, so maybe making Frozen Ground into something that has a 2-ammo charge was a bit much. I guess, if anything, I could just take it back down a single-charge skill with just the one cooldown.

Earth melee auto is a fantastic idea. It doesn't need to provide additional damage from allies. It would just need to do like 2s of weakness every 3rd auto and its be fine.

I honestly hate the idea of an autoattack inflicting weakness because it just seems too effortless for the reward of netting some 50%, RNG damage negation. I figured that it would be better to have the conditional melee effect grant a party buff rather than an opponent debuff because, in PvP, an opponent could at least play around that by avoiding damage, while, in PvE, it would be a super valuable asset to a team which could only be accessed via a Staff Ele.

Transmute earth. Dont like it. Why should it be better than other auras?

The better question is WHY DO TRANSMUTES EXIST and WHY ARE THEY ALL SO BORING AND BAD? If nothing else, when you decide to add some skills into the game, you should probably at least attempt to make them somewhat unique to what so many classes already bring to the table. All of the transmutes, as they are now, are basically just trash-tier PBAoEs (the only one being remotely good is the static one, and that's only because it applies the un-fun effect of stunning nearby opponents with little warning). Instead of all of them being super bland or outright bad, they probably should be something more worthwhile; especially considering how, in order to use them, you technically have to sacrifice your current aura. In that light, considering how the other auras technically require you to take a hit in order for them to give out an effect, sacrificing the Magnetic Aura (the only one which gives you a powerful effect without needing to eat damage), is probably justified in having the best transmute.

Shockwave. Be better to make it a ranged aoe but yeah I'm picking up what you're throwing down.

I thought about making Shockwave into something like a ranged AoE or a PBAoE with a circular radius, but again, it's sort of like the issue I have with Ice Spike (or, for heaven's sake, look at the tragedy that is Necromancer Staff): you can only have so many "draw circle on ground" skills before you get sick of trying to be creative with them. I felt that the Revenant, cascading hammer attack was both respectively fluid and functional enough to warrant a look as a re-work for Shockwave. Then it just came down to making the actual skill a lot better than its current, bland iteration.

Good job op

Thanks, bro.

[Swagg.9236]

@alain.1659 said:Staff fields and blasts should also be improved. In a world where everyone can poop boons with one button, executing a combo in the heat of battle should yield more than... well than this current result at least.

Good ideas op. Staff needs a buff and a rework to its cast times/ after casts.

I feel like, rather than buffing staff blasts, it would be better, at this point, to just continue to nerf everybody else. GW2 is a rare case where nerfs are probably better than buffs after a certain point. Considering how low the cap threshold is on things like boons and in-battle stat bonuses (I mean, it's not hard for people to passively have a 60%+ crit chance with just armor), if anything, the responsibility of providing ceiling-cap buffs should fall to only a few classes rather than just letting every class passively tick up to max stats and boon stacks by just hitting with rotation skills.

For anyone who played this game way back at launch, they might remember how Elementalist (although, I think the set-up rotation was scepter/focus with some free-aim tech and certain utilities), was the party-wide, pre-fight buffer in dungeons mainly because nobody else could bring everyone up to 20+ might stacks in a single rotation. Engineer could sometimes come close, but it still wasn't really a contest. As time went on, everyone just got passive might ticks, damage kept creeping up, and Ele generally fell to the wayside.

[Swagg.9236]

@Odik.4587 said:

@MyPuppy.8970 said:

@Odik.4587 said:

@"Sunshine.5014" said:Staff needs lower cast time. 1/2s max for normal skills.All "normal" skills cast time is 3/4 fyi.

Most ele staff skills can be evaded by stepping aside though. It's like fighting perma evade specs.Why you wont just ask instacasts alrdy? Poor staff has melee/small radius attacks that does close to no damage /s

Please don't advocate for stripping away one of the only PvP skill ceilings that this game has. Staff Ele is fun because it's satisfying to control an area and pressure people with good timing.

[hotte in space.2158]

Make weaver loose access to staff (doesnt need it anyway) and then buff staff. Would be a perfect occasion to bring back core-ele