Why is Retaliation Hitting for 300 a Tick?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

Boon strip no longer exists?

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@"RisenHowl.2419" said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

And yet, somehow I'm still countering it? If you're going to backline, learn how to manage retal.

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.

[Junkpile.7439]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

And yet, somehow I'm still countering it? If you're going to backline, learn how to manage retal.

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.What if you don't have blob or healers? What if you flank behind enemy and you are alone?

[Junkpile.7439]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordinglyWhy i need to learn how to play, but blobbers don't even need to learn how to dodge?

?????

Do you think that people playing in a zerg successfully don't dodge or...?Today i saw blob who just stand in one place like 3 minutes and didn't die. Broken healing, broken boon sharing, damage nerfs and aoe cap make it so easy.

[Syrus.2174]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

And yet, somehow I'm still countering it? If you're going to backline, learn how to manage retal.

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.

As much as I appreciate this video to showcase how many times retal still ends up being a significant damage source in most battles, from what I saw there was not a single enemy zerg among them that had any real retaliation upkeep. Luckily they are quite rare, it really depends on which server you fight against and I don't know how common they are in NA, but retaliation on the whole zerg hits much worse than what you encountered.Of course, you also seem to have some proper boon removable in your group, which helps, but even without it, when you bomb the enemy zerg before your zerg engages, it is quite clear they didn't have much retaliation to begin with, because in such cases I usually had to immediatly heal up due to eating several thousand points of damage in a few seconds.

And even with all this, STILL often retal ends up as the highest percentage of damage taken for you.I mean, look at the fight in the tower at ~4 min, the enemy seems to barely have any retaliation on them (watch how rarely it ticks considering how many hits you land) and still you end up with almost 15k damage taken from it for a grand total of 33% of all damage taken despite getting hit a few times and running through AEs.I'm just questioning how that is justifiable for a passive boon?

Luckily you also have capable healers around, as well as teammates who don't soak up all damage so your healers are busy trying to keep them alive.But that just as a side node.

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Syrus.2174 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

And yet, somehow I'm still countering it? If you're going to backline, learn how to manage retal.

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.

As much as I appreciate this video to showcase how many times retal still ends up being a significant damage source in most battles, from what I saw there was not a single enemy zerg among them that had any real retaliation upkeep. Luckily they are quite rare, it really depends on which server you fight against and I don't know how common they are in NA, but retaliation on the whole zerg hits much worse than what you encountered.Of course, you also seem to have some proper boon removable in your group, which helps, but even without it, when you bomb the enemy zerg before your zerg engages, it is quite clear they didn't have much retaliation to begin with, because in such cases I usually had to immediatly heal up due to eating several thousand points of damage in a few seconds.

And even with all this, STILL often retal ends up as the highest percentage of damage taken for you.I mean, look at the fight in the tower at ~4 min, the enemy seems to barely have any retaliation on them (watch how rarely it ticks considering how many hits you land) and still you end up with almost 15k damage taken from it for a grand total of 33% of all damage taken despite getting hit a few times and running through AEs.I'm just questioning how that is justifiable for a passive boon?

Luckily you also have capable healers around, as well as teammates who don't soak up all damage so your healers are busy trying to keep them alive.But that just as a side node.

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally

. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.

let me add timing to that list. look at what the sources of retaliation are, then think about when the enemy group is going to use it.https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Retaliation

[Mokk.2397]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

Boon strip no longer exists?

Not a reasonable counter because not every class has boon removal or boon corruption . That again leaves the playing field dominated by 2 classes . It's a cheap crutch only and needs removal from the game.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

Boon strip no longer exists?

Not a reasonable counter because not every class has boon removal or boon corruption . That again leaves the playing field dominated by 2 classes . It's a cheap crutch only and needs removal from the game.

Retal is only an issue in zergs. Your zerg should have boon strips. Place bombs on bubbles. GG, retaliation is countered. /Endofthread.

[Mokk.2397]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

Boon strip no longer exists?

Not a reasonable counter because not every class has boon removal or boon corruption . That again leaves the playing field dominated by 2 classes . It's a cheap crutch only and needs removal from the game.

Retal is only an issue in zergs. Your zerg should have boon strips. Place bombs on bubbles. GG, retaliation is countered. /Endofthread.

Like hell it is . Many groups run in small havoc groups No it needs to go because it only serves the precious META that people have become addicted to .REMOVE RETALIATION !!END OF THREAD

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

Boon strip no longer exists?

Not a reasonable counter because not every class has boon removal or boon corruption . That again leaves the playing field dominated by 2 classes . It's a cheap crutch only and needs removal from the game.

Retal is only an issue in zergs. Your zerg should have boon strips. Place bombs on bubbles. GG, retaliation is countered. /Endofthread.

Like hell it is . Many groups run in small havoc groups No it needs to go because it only serves the precious META that people have become addicted to .REMOVE RETALIATION !!END OF THREAD

Small havoc groups aren't going to be balled up enough that retaliation is an issue there. Fck, I even run large multi hit skills on a DH and retaliation is never an issue, and that included medium scale fights. I'm talking 2 symbols, AA, and rapid casts of SoJ on 5 or more peeps.

Every single player in WvW can bring boon rip on cc with a sigil. If boons are a problem for you, build in the counter given to you by Anet into your build. Retaliation isn't the issue here, it's QQ over poorly placed and poorly timed nukes going against the nuker who refuses to run the counter or learn how to be a better nuker.

[ArchonWing.9480]

@Syrus.2174 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

And yet, somehow I'm still countering it? If you're going to backline, learn how to manage retal.

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.

As much as I appreciate this video to showcase how many times retal still ends up being a significant damage source in most battles, from what I saw there was not a single enemy zerg among them that had any real retaliation upkeep. Luckily they are quite rare, it really depends on which server you fight against and I don't know how common they are in NA, but retaliation on the whole zerg hits much worse than what you encountered.Of course, you also seem to have some proper boon removable in your group, which helps, but even without it, when you bomb the enemy zerg before your zerg engages, it is quite clear they didn't have much retaliation to begin with, because in such cases I usually had to immediatly heal up due to eating several thousand points of damage in a few seconds.

And even with all this, STILL often retal ends up as the highest percentage of damage taken for you.I mean, look at the fight in the tower at ~4 min, the enemy seems to barely have any retaliation on them (watch how rarely it ticks considering how many hits you land) and still you end up with almost 15k damage taken from it for a grand total of 33% of all damage taken despite getting hit a few times and running through AEs.I'm just questioning how that is justifiable for a passive boon?

Luckily you also have capable healers around, as well as teammates who don't soak up all damage so your healers are busy trying to keep them alive.But that just as a side node.

If you watch the video, there are many parts where he is too far away from the source of the main heals-- that's not why he survives. The key here is to not be full glass and launch litany before you begin the burst. I don't have trouble with surviving on burn dh when pugging when we're random classes.

And yes, the better organized group should do better. It's your server's responsibility as a whole to bring builds that will support their group. If everyone brings selfish snowflake builds that do not synergize, then it doesn't matter what the mechanics are-- they are going to die unless the other side potatoes.

I'm not sure what people can expect when they bring full damage builds that literally cannot survive without support, when they know they may not get it. With build templates, there aren't really any good excuses.

And oh yes, I think Retaliation could use a nerf. I just think it won't help most of the complaints.

[XenoSpyro.1780]

Ret should be limited to melee range.

[Mokk.2397]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Small havoc groups aren't going to be balled up enough that retaliation is an issue there. kitten, I even run large multi hit skills on a DH and retaliation is never an issue, and that included medium scale fights. I'm talking 2 symbols, AA, and rapid casts of SoJ on 5 or more peeps.

Every single player in WvW can bring boon rip on cc with a sigil. If boons are a problem for you, build in the counter given to you by Anet into your build. Retaliation isn't the issue here, it's QQ over poorly placed and poorly timed nukes going against the nuker who refuses to run the counter or learn how to be a better nuker.

Many times Havoc groups need to gather together to fight a map blob So retaliation is an issue .People can have as many sigils as they can carry but it won't do sweet F A because they won't work when the hit is reflected back. Retaliation is to over powered .

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:Small havoc groups aren't going to be balled up enough that retaliation is an issue there. kitten, I even run large multi hit skills on a DH and retaliation is never an issue, and that included medium scale fights. I'm talking 2 symbols, AA, and rapid casts of SoJ on 5 or more peeps.

Every single player in WvW can bring boon rip on cc with a sigil. If boons are a problem for you, build in the counter given to you by Anet into your build. Retaliation isn't the issue here, it's QQ over poorly placed and poorly timed nukes going against the nuker who refuses to run the counter or learn how to be a better nuker.

Many times Havoc groups need to gather together to fight a map blob So retaliation is an issue .People can have as many sigils as they can carry but it won't do sweet F A because they won't work when the hit is reflected back. Retaliation is to over powered .

A havoc group that gets found by a blob is going to die or WP while they are still out of combat regardless of the presence of retaliation, and frankly that blob wouldn't bother with retaliation, they'd just 1111 the havoc group to death. Hits are only 'reflected' if they are projectiles. Use non projectile CC, they exist, at range, and are aoe.

You've made absolutely no case for the removal of retaliation. Its a boon. Take a teammate to deal with it. No Teammate? Grab some CC and a sigil. Too much stability? Bring a Spellbreaker or Necro along for the ride or play one of them since your group seems to be lacking in the essentials.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@XenoSpyro.1780 said:Ret should be limited to melee range.

Not a bad idea, but then the damage would have to increase. Would be silly lolz if it reflected the whole damage packet back. Thieves would 1 shot themselves lol. Seriously though, limiting the range is not a bad idea, but depending on how much you limit it you'd have to increase the damage.

How about making it deal 1500 damage at 120 units that drops down dynamically over range to 150 damage at 1000 units and gone completely at 1200 units.

That would be cool. Thief repellant too.

[Mokk.2397]

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:A havoc group that gets found by a blob is going to die or WP while they are still out of combat regardless of the presence of retaliation, and frankly that blob wouldn't bother with retaliation, they'd just 1111 the havoc group to death. Hits are only 'reflected' if they are projectiles. Use non projectile CC, they exist, at range, and are aoe.

You've made absolutely no case for the removal of retaliation. Its a boon. Take a teammate to deal with it. No Teammate? Grab some CC and a sigil. Too much stability? Bring a Spellbreaker or Necro along for the ride or play one of them since your group seems to be lacking in the essentials.

LMAOYou fail because your trying to defend a clearly over powered boon that requires absolutely NO skill to implement and absolutely NO skill to hold at Near 100% up time and and tell everyone else to get good .

[Ansau.7326]

Easiest fix is to limit retaliation hit every 1s, following mechanics of auras, sigils and so on.

Forget about weirdo solutions like limiting range or only applied to melee. The issue is with the unlimited times you can get hit by it.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Mokk.2397 said:

@Lan Deathrider.5910 said:A havoc group that gets found by a blob is going to die or WP while they are still out of combat regardless of the presence of retaliation, and frankly that blob wouldn't bother with retaliation, they'd just 1111 the havoc group to death. Hits are only 'reflected' if they are projectiles. Use non projectile CC, they exist, at range, and are aoe.

You've made absolutely no case for the removal of retaliation. Its a boon. Take a teammate to deal with it. No Teammate? Grab some CC and a sigil. Too much stability? Bring a Spellbreaker or Necro along for the ride or play one of them since your group seems to be lacking in the essentials.

LMAOYou fail because your trying to defend a clearly over powered boon that requires absolutely NO skill to implement and absolutely NO skill to hold at Near 100% up time and and tell everyone else to get good .

The only people getting killed by retal are careless players. Its a boon. Strip it or what for your team to strip it before nuking. If you Leeroy Jenkins you are going to die, front line or back line, don't be like Leeroy.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Ansau.7326 said:Easiest fix is to limit retaliation hit every 1s, following mechanics of auras, sigils and so on.

Forget about weirdo solutions like limiting range or only applied to melee. The issue is with the unlimited times you can get hit by it.

You would still have to increase the damage dealt by it if you did that, and of course limit its duration.

[Harum.2896]

Fun reading bad players defending and justifying retal.Even more giggles is to sometimes watch a organized group stading still packed in open field and letting a blob of bads just freecast on them and while pumping out retal like now tomorrow and outhealing the dmg. Just watching for luls as enemy backline gets downed by retal only.It's just a shame that rarely the good play is rewarded by retal. No matter how well you play your role as dmg dealer and position yourself out of harm, retal will get you eventually. Sure you can invuln or heal through the retal but soon you run of out invulns/heals. Not all fights are over in 20sec. And even with good play you can't always afford to waste your heal just so you can live through your own well cast MS or other high frequency hitting bomb.Just slap a 1s CD on individual players taking retal dmg and problem solved. Still relevant in 1v1 and not out of proportion in 50v50.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:

@Mokk.2397 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation

and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .

And yet, somehow I'm still countering it? If you're going to backline, learn how to manage retal.

You can heal through it, you can go into your stack to get healed, you can pull off when there's too much incoming damage, you can even save CDs and go down- so long as you're sure you generated enough downs that you'll rally. Each class has different ways of dealing with it, learn how to use them.What if you don't have blob or healers? What if you flank behind enemy and you are alone?

then use your heal skill or flash to your fb and get healed up.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@Harum.2896 the bad players are the ones not coordinating their spikes with the Zerg properly and nuking themselves. Stop defending bad players.

An ICD still isn't a bad idea for it though.

[Trejgon.9367]

I am getting the weird vibes off this thread that some players just wants to be able to bomb zergs without that zerg having ability to fight back.

In most cases brought up in here even if the retal didn't get you - the zerg would, you were outnumbered and outpositioned. It's just that you killed yourself before zerg could.

And there there is that guy with dragonhunter that believes that dropping a trap and then waypointing and having that trap damage enemy zerg while he was back on spawn is ok, but retal hitting him back across this distance is not. And to his case I offer simple solution - all traps despawn when the one who placed them move to far away from them. Here, no more retal ticks across the map.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

@"Lord Trejgon.2809" said:I am getting the weird vibes off this thread that some players just wants to be able to bomb zergs without that zerg having ability to fight back.

In most cases brought up in here even if the retal didn't get you - the zerg would, you were outnumbered and outpositioned. It's just that you killed yourself before zerg could.

And there there is that guy with dragonhunter that believes that dropping a trap and then waypointing and having that trap damage enemy zerg while he was back on spawn is ok, but retal hitting him back across this distance is not. And to his case I offer simple solution - all traps despawn when the one who placed them move to far away from them. Here, no more retal ticks across the map.

This. Every retal QQ thread can be summed up as "I didn't coordinate with the zerg bomb and died to Retal procs plz nerf cus I'm too bad to learn how to play better" to which the reply is "wait for the boon strips..." to which the QQers accuse others as being bad players defending the boon that is doing its job right.

Either strip the boon yourself or wait for it to be stripped. Bubbles are big hints on where to put the nukes, or hop into voice chat and hold your nukes for when the tag calls for them.

[ArchonWing.9480]

The funny part is even if you do land a burst without coordinating, it's unlikely to do much because the zerg will just heal it. You need more disruption from your team to land any real burst.

Big fights are won by everyone in the area localizing damage, not by rambos thinking they can 1v40 and showing off on arcdps lol.