Why is Retaliation Hitting for 300 a Tick?

[primatos.5413]

Why not just remove that shit?

[Virdo.1540]

Retal is an counter against quick-hitting classes, where aegis isnt that useful.

Same other way around. Aegis is strong against for example deadeyes or warriors, where retal isnt that great.

So stop whining and wait until its gone. Or only make single hard-hitting skills.

[Magolith.9412]

Lol. I put down one reflect field and it almost killed me. Granted, it wasn't 100% retal, but a whole bunch of it was.

[primatos.5413]

Like a lot of things just bad designed just remove it.

[Syrus.2174]

@Virdo.1540 said:Retal is an counter against quick-hitting classes, where aegis isnt that useful.

Same other way around. Aegis is strong against for example deadeyes or warriors, where retal isnt that great.

So stop whining and wait until its gone. Or only make single hard-hitting skills.

Aegis does not hit back, it only makes your hit not count. Same as invuln or projectile destruction. They don't give the enemy free damage.Reflects are usually quite noticable and can be avoided.

Retaliation is different. it is easily applied on long term and stays with the zerg, being a boon. It doesn't just avoid you taking damage, but actually rewards you for it.

---

But I feel like I'm just repeating myself. A bad game mechanic stays a bad game mechanic, no matter how much some might wish to defend it, because they like and use it. In my opinion it is hurting the game mode, more now than before, because its damage has not be changed. In my opinion it needs to be removed, because I see no way to improve it without changing it completely, which would just equal to it being removed.

[Sinfullysweet.4517]

@"Syrus.2174" said:I've been pointing out that retaliation is a broken mechanic for quite some time by now:https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87062/retaliation-should-be-removed

Sadly I forgot to get more screenshots of taking massive retaliation damage today, as standard screenshots don't capture arcdps sadly.Happened a few times, it really feels like zergs run retaliation more often since the patch, or it's just the servers we're up against.It's really stupid, when you drop one bomb and die from retaliation alone, what are you supposed to do if there's no boon cleanse around, not every class can do it. It's one thing to have to learn your class to play right so you don't die, but when you can't attack because it will just straight up down you, there's little you can do. It's not a skill issue, but a broken mechanic. The enemy doesn't have to react, they just have to keep the boon active.

I don’t have anything to contribute to the discussion but wanted to let you know of a way to capture tour screen with arcdps.

Press SHIFT S and the windows key all at the same time and you can take an instant screencap with everything on your screen. (TaCo and arcdps included) then just click and save it when it goes to your clipboard.

[Yasai.3549]

Ah yes, another Retaliation thread.I say keep Retaliation as is, reduce the number of hits from multi hit attacks but deal same damage.

Everyone wins. :)

[blp.3489]

Like I said, I'm a newbie, but is passive perma-retaliation a thing? Isn't it something that you have to proc at some expense? How many members of a zerg can have retaliation at any one time? Even in a zerg that is actively trying to maximize retaliation what realistic percent of the players have retaliation at any one time? My intuition may be off but I would think it would be very very rare for an aoe to hit 5 players who all have retaliation at the same time. And if players with retaliation are dashing into your aoe isn't that an active tactic? Isn't there a bit of "I should be able to afflict my massive damage skill on your zerg without there being any chance of blowback" here?

[Syrus.2174]

@Sinfullysweet.4517 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:I've been pointing out that retaliation is a broken mechanic for quite some time by now:

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/87062/retaliation-should-be-removed

Sadly I forgot to get more screenshots of taking massive retaliation damage today, as standard screenshots don't capture arcdps sadly.Happened a few times, it really feels like zergs run retaliation more often since the patch, or it's just the servers we're up against.It's really stupid, when you drop one bomb and die from retaliation alone, what are you supposed to do if there's no boon cleanse around, not every class can do it. It's one thing to have to learn your class to play right so you don't die, but when you can't attack because it will just straight up down you, there's little you can do. It's not a skill issue, but a broken mechanic. The enemy doesn't have to react, they just have to keep the boon active.

I don’t have anything to contribute to the discussion but wanted to let you know of a way to capture tour screen with arcdps.

Press SHIFT S and the windows key all at the same time and you can take an instant screencap with everything on your screen. (TaCo and arcdps included) then just click and save it when it goes to your clipboard.

Good advice, thanks!I already found the tool for doing this some time after I posted that post, since I have my left windows key disabled, I'll stick to using the tool directly, but it's still good to know.

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@"blp.3489" said:Like I said, I'm a newbie, but is passive perma-retaliation a thing? Isn't it something that you have to proc at some expense? How many members of a zerg can have retaliation at any one time? Even in a zerg that is actively trying to maximize retaliation what realistic percent of the players have retaliation at any one time? My intuition may be off but I would think it would be very very rare for an aoe to hit 5 players who all have retaliation at the same time. And if players with retaliation are dashing into your aoe isn't that an active tactic? Isn't there a bit of "I should be able to afflict my massive damage skill on your zerg without there being any chance of blowback" here?

I don't know how well one person can keep it up, but I've hit some zergs where you could practically not attack at all without taking significant retaliation damage. If not everyone, at least half of the zerg had it at any time.For it being an active tactic, I wonder, where is the skill in it? What am I supposed to do against it? I can't go out of range, since it would still keep hitting me if I was near spawn while the fight was on the other end of the map, I can't dodge it, I can't stop my AEs from being around. The only counter, which not every class has available to them, would be boon removal of any kind. Not attacking at all just equals to giving up - if that was the only solution, why even play WvW? It would mean letting the enemy zergs take your stuff unopposed, turning WvW into PvE with only karma trains, if taken to the extreme.I just think the mechanic of retaliation overall is flawed and don't see a place for it in this game mode. Defense, just like offense, should always require the player to act and react.

[Yasai.3549]

@"blp.3489" said:Like I said, I'm a newbie, but is passive perma-retaliation a thing? Isn't it something that you have to proc at some expense? How many members of a zerg can have retaliation at any one time? Even in a zerg that is actively trying to maximize retaliation what realistic percent of the players have retaliation at any one time? My intuition may be off but I would think it would be very very rare for an aoe to hit 5 players who all have retaliation at the same time. And if players with retaliation are dashing into your aoe isn't that an active tactic? Isn't there a bit of "I should be able to afflict my massive damage skill on your zerg without there being any chance of blowback" here?

Straight answer is : No.Usually zerg wide Retaliation stems from one source : Stand Your Ground.

The very vocal community which wants Retaliation nerfs are usually people who :

1. Multi-hit alot with skills, but built glass, and then QQ about how Retaliation does too much damage despite the entire existence of the Boon to deter glass cannons from multi-hitting
2. Eles who drop Meteor at a bad time on 10 people with Retaliation from SYG and then instant nuking themselves.

Imo point 1 stated above has some legitimate cause for concern simply because a so called "defensive" boon doing over 5k damage on a multi hitter (like a DH for example) is kind of out of hand, seeing as people have been hit by this alot in PvP.

Point 2 is just a big haha heehee thing cos Eles who do that and do not notice their health getting chunked honestly deserve to die.

So the proper solution is to probably lower the number of multi hits from multi-hitters, but dealing the same damage.This should prevent them from taking too many Retaliation hits before either it expires or their skill finishes casting.

[Mauzi.5892]

@Lightning Specter.9568 said:300/tick is nothing when you're in a 1v1. when a group of 10 has retal then you can possibly die from it

If you run into 10 people alone you die regardless.

If you are fighting 10 vs 10 you probably have some sustain in your group, like heals and barrier. Retal is just a little poke dmg, nothing more.Funny how a power mesmer, who one shoted people pre-patch, is now complaining about retal killing him xD

[KrHome.1920]

Everyone that learned to deal with the empathy hex (the skill retaliation is derived from) in guild wars 1 can just laugh about complains about retaliation. That single hex did shut down whole builds and the whole assassin class.

The zerg effect of killing meteor eles with retaliation is nothing to complain about. That meteor is ranged and that strong that there should be a risk for the caster. And it's not like ele does not have invulnerabilities to nullify these risks (correct me if I am wrong and invuln does not protect from retal damage!).

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

as pure damage zerg weaver, I see a lot of retal.

I never died to retal.

I die to vault, gunflame, a million conditions, CoR.

But not retal.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@KrHome.1920 said:Everyone that learned to deal with the empathy hex (the skill retaliation is derived from) in guild wars 1 can just laugh about complains about retaliation. That single hex did shut down whole builds and the whole assassin class.

The zerg effect of killing meteor eles with retaliation is nothing to complain about. That meteor is ranged and that strong that there should be a risk for the caster. And it's not like ele does not have invulnerabilities to nullify these risks (correct me if I am wrong and invuln does not protect from retal damage!).

please tell me of those invuls that I can proc and still use skills. I would love the hear about them.

But as I said in the other post, retal is not a problem for me. As a staff weaver. Because among all the 10k hits, 300 dmg is nothing.

[Syrus.2174]

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:as pure damage zerg weaver, I see a lot of retal.

I never died to retal.

I die to vault, gunflame, a million conditions, CoR.

But not retal.

Then you haven't yet landed a perfect bomb on a careless zerg with lots of retal on them.

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I most certainly had many encounters where I had to run from the battle to die in a safe spot as my AEs were killing me, before the big patch and after as well. Both on my Ele and on my DH, despite having a rather tanky build on the DH and running almost full Marauder on my Ele.As has been pointed out earlier: toughness doesn't help, so, what more can I do to not run a, in your opinion, "glassy build"?

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@"KrHome.1920" said:Everyone that learned to deal with the empathy hex (the skill retaliation is derived from) in guild wars 1 can just laugh about complains about retaliation. That single hex did shut down whole builds and the whole assassin class.

The zerg effect of killing meteor eles with retaliation is nothing to complain about. That meteor is ranged and that strong that there should be a risk for the caster. And it's not like ele does not have invulnerabilities to nullify these risks (correct me if I am wrong and invuln does not protect from retal damage!).

I don't care at all about what is or was in Guild Wars 1. This is not Guild Wars 1, it is Guild Wars 2. Some may say there is a connection, but let's be honest, these are two completely different games which happen to take place in the "same world".Ele has 1200 range, that means most ranged classes can hit the Ele if they are in range. Especially those heavy hitters who are excellent counters against Eles outrange them: Deadeyes and Rangers both can hit from farther away and can melt you in a second or less.

I have no idea what kind of invulnerabilities you are talking about in regards to countering retaliation.Staff has no skills that grant invuln or damage mitigation, besides projetile reflection in double earth attunement.Arcane Shield? I don't think that even affects retaliation. If it does, it would be gone instantly anyway though.Mist Form? That's only for getting away, you can't do anything but run in that form, and even running is sometimes not possible (immobilize? roots?)...Twist of Fate? Not really invuln either, not sure if that evade stops retaliation damage even, but it'd still be a waste of the skill, considering how long AEs last compared to the short 1 second evade and how necessary it is to avoid all the big other hits that will fly at you the moment you are at low health due to retaliation...The only other invulnerabilities I can find are via Earth Shield and via Focus, both not used in zergs usually.Maybe I'm missing something?

Those 17k health you'll end up with as Ele melt in seconds. I had bombs with my DH which put me at 20+k damage taken from retaliation alone, a death sentence even if you run full Marauder. How is that balanced? How is that fair? And most of all, what are you supposed to do against that?

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

@Syrus.2174 said:

@"VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618" said:as pure damage zerg weaver, I see a lot of retal.

I never died to retal.

I die to vault, gunflame, a million conditions, CoR.

But not retal.

Then you haven't yet landed a perfect bomb on a careless zerg with lots of retal on them.

since I was top dps in most fight before the patch and in the top 5 since patch: I do land perfect bombs.

But I also know when it is time to stay with/flash to my fb to get my heals.

[Yasai.3549]

@"Syrus.2174" said:

Then you haven't yet landed a perfect bomb on a careless zerg with lots of retal on them.

---

I most certainly had many encounters where I had to run from the battle to die in a safe spot as my AEs were killing me, before the big patch and after as well. Both on my Ele and on my DH, despite having a rather tanky build on the DH and running almost full Marauder on my Ele.As has been pointed out earlier: toughness doesn't help, so, what more can I do to not run a, in your opinion, "glassy build"?

Claims to land a Perfect bomb.Has to run from battle.

What??If yu landed a so called "perfect bomb" yu guys shouldn't even be needing to "run" from battle as if yu have lost the fight and needed to scatter.

Yu should always stick to yur zerg anyway and let their cover heals offset Retaliation for yu.If this happens very often, it means yur not sticking to blob for heals, or all yur healers are brain dead afk, or yur just not part of the zerg in the first place, joining the fight off squad as a straggler pretending to be Rambo which will explain why yu aren't getting heals from the Healers in the squad.

Getting a perfect Bomb off on a "careless zerg" but getting killed by Retaliation?Who's the careless one here?

Besides, the two Professions yu mentioned , DH and Ele, both have 1 button click skills which will give them Invulnerable which will instant stop all incoming damage.

[Syrus.2174]

@Yasai.3549 said:

@"Syrus.2174" said:

Then you haven't yet landed a perfect bomb on a careless zerg with lots of retal on them.

---

I most certainly had many encounters where I had to run from the battle to die in a safe spot as my AEs were killing me, before the big patch and after as well. Both on my Ele and on my DH, despite having a rather tanky build on the DH and running almost full Marauder on my Ele.As has been pointed out earlier: toughness doesn't help, so, what more can I do to not run a, in your opinion, "glassy build"?

Claims to land a Perfect bomb.Has to run from battle.

What??If you landed a so called "perfect bomb" you guys shouldn't even be needing to "run" from battle as if you have lost the fight and needed to scatter.

You should always stick to your zerg anyway and let their cover heals offset Retaliation for you.If this happens very often, it means your not sticking to blob for heals, or all your healers are brain dead afk, or your just not part of the zerg in the first place, joining the fight off squad as a straggler pretending to be Rambo which will explain why you aren't getting heals from the Healers in the squad.

Getting a perfect Bomb off on a "careless zerg" but getting killed by Retaliation?Who's the careless one here?

Endorsing mindless blobbing even more is not a thing I'm for, to be honest. Maybe think about the people who wish to be able to act more independently from the zerg, outsmarting an enemy zerg by going behind them or flanking them, dropping a massive bomb when the zerg is focussed elsewhere. Why is it ok for the enemy to kill you, without needing to actually do anything? Why should I need a dedicated healer, without actually getting hit?How am I careless for getting killed from a passive effect, after dropping AEs which I cannot even stop? Even if I did take care and checked every single enemy for retaliation, by the time my meteor shower - for example - is going down, they might have gotten the boon. What am I supposed to do at this point?You say, stick with the zerg, always keep a healer around. Most times when a "perfect bomb" is possible is in defensive fights, which usually happen when you don't have the perfect zerg around, don't have enough healers (which are already busy keeping the melee alive for example, or those actually getting hit by the enemy). In that case you probably also got decent boon removal, which overall means that retal matters less ... but then the whole situation is different.

I see no way how this mechanic is defendable in any way, why do people think it is ok to reward the attacked for inaction, while the attacker is told to react to something they can only react to via not doing anything?

I fully agree with the fact that with a perfect bomb you shouldn't have to run just because of retaliation damage killing you faster than you can scream "help"...not that that was what you meant, but heh.

@Yasai.3549 said:Besides, the two Professions you mentioned , DH and Ele, both have 1 button click skills which will give them Invulnerable which will instant stop all incoming damage.

Elementalist, invulnerability ... just ... no.Like, what do people mean with that? Mist form? Vapor form?

And neither does DH have the invuln on short cooldown to just waste it every time they want to attack the enemy zerg.Most of the "invuln" you probably see in a fight against one of them has no effect on retaliation.

We are talking about ONE (!) boon, which often enough makes up a significant portion of overall damage taken, depending on how well I play it can be as much as 90% of all incoming damage, but it usually ends up doing around 30-60% when it is applied to the majority of the enemy zerg and I play carefully (in fights where I don't get downed and overrun by the zerg, obviously then the other damage far outweighs retal).

...avoid getting hit by the enemy through positioning and cunning tactics, just to die to passive boon spam killing you through your own attacks with no way to avoid it besides just not attacking. But I am the careless one, probably didn't doge, I guess. Or didn't hit the always available and everlasting invulnerability...

In the end, overall you are missing the point:It's about the lack of skill for retaliation. The lack of action needed by the attacked. The brain dead mechanic that this mechanic represents. The way how it nullifies zergs having to pay attention to their rear or flank, to the few who dare to harrass the zerg with risky attacks. It's about how such attacks are countered without an actual counter, without people actually fighting back.If you think retaliation is nowhere near as significant, try playing a class with low (base) HP and lots of AEs vs a zerg with a good chunk of it. Look at the ArcDPS breakdown for what hurt you the most in the end, then tell me, how is this a well balanced part of the game, of WvW?

[Notsoperky.4291]

Flogging a dead horse here. Been the same rubbish for years but nothing was ever done about it, despite it making several builds unplayable in wvw (grenade engi was the funniest, you literally hit less per grenade than you got back in retal!!).

I highly doubt Anet will take any notice at this late stage.

[RisenHowl.2419]

Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

[Aeolus.3615]

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Junkpile.7439 said:Anet really have revolutionize gaming. Other games you try to avoid damage, but here you try to take damage.

Finally, the facetank meta comes to the foreAnd you guys thought clump up and spam was as tictacal as it could get

Theres a boon that makes damage when i want to spam... plz nerf.

:S thats what ic here, IMO issue is how boons stack so easilly cause everything in this area of the game is boon or condi... to stack.

Some stuff actually i belive needs to became its own mechanic rather than be a boon or condi to stack...

[Lord Trejgon.2809]

This whole talk reminded me of a situation I had in early days of spellbreaker (before the nerfs and stuff).I was enjoying toying with my spellbreaker for zerging with my guild, Ihad at that pointthe traits that 1. deal damage packet to enemy when removing boon 2. removing boon removes additional boon from people around that target (sounded like very nice synergy out there).

so situation was that we were being pushed through a chokepoint and commander sounded retreat to fight them in better spot and not feed bodies to their bomb.since they were going through the chokepoint I have set up winds of disenchantment on their way.

man the amount of retal packets I have received after they ran into it and before retal got purged off was hilarious. Had to use the heal and still nearly died.

The difference in there between me and most posters in this thread is that I laughted off the occurence and have fond memory of "that time I nearly killed myself"on a side note I have ever seen such situation happening exactly once, and while myself I run mostly as a support character (firebrand), I have never heard any of guild mates complaining about retal damage - and they are the kind of folks that complain about virtually everything untill commander tells then to shut up ;)

Thanks guys tho for the enjoyment value of reading thru this thread tho :)

[Junkpile.7439]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordinglyWhy i need to learn how to play, but blobbers don't even need to learn how to dodge?

[RisenHowl.2419]

@Junkpile.7439 said:

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordinglyWhy i need to learn how to play, but blobbers don't even need to learn how to dodge?

?????

Do you think that people playing in a zerg successfully don't dodge or...?

[Mokk.2397]

@RisenHowl.2419 said:Learning how to manage incoming retal damage is part of playing a backline class. If you want to get good at that role, learn the mechanic that counters it and adjust your play accordingly

There are no counters to Retaliation and it can have nearly a 100% up time over nearly 100% of the group. This is the problem . It's a far to powerful boon to be shared so easily . Either drop it from the game entirely or fix the boon share .