Chronomancers state in Pvp/WvW

[Zoser.7245]

@Heika.5403 said:They did the same with Mirage. Instead of promote its basic mechanics and make it fun to play with more!!! dodges, allowing us to administrate them and play with more combos, with, for example, 4 dodges available and conveniently balance around it. They did de opposite. It seems they didn't really feel like doing extra work. And they decided to fu* the Mirage in the worse way, nerfing it to a single dodge. Now, like the Chronomancer, is more boring, i only like to play with it in PvE where we still can play around our dodges and thanks to the Stamina sigil, etc. In PvP now, you can't play with your dodges making combos because you only have a single one. Terrible decision. And watching what they did with Chronomancer who knows if a future rework will make the Mirage even worse...

Now imagine that tomorrow, they decide that shatters must be balanced too. And like with the Mirage, instead of adjust them properly they choose that the most easy way is remove three of them and only give mesmer a single shatter with all together defensive an ofensive in a single skill, so you must choose its single use. Amazing!!! Instead encourage to play with core/specialization mechanics and make the profession fun, you cripple it with a single shatter. It'll be bizarre, right? Praise to not have them the idea of balance the shatters next time, they already removed some ways to play the mesmer, like the glamour builds, the phanstasm ones, the lock interrup, the clone based ones, etc. They give you a basic mechanic and then almost remove it with a single use. Ridiculous. Well, that is what they also did with the single Mirage's dodge. Imagine a future Mirage with a single dodge and a single shatter...

[youle.5824]

I used bunker chrono in plat a few time this season, its still a rly strong node holder vs like holo, core ranger or mirage. Just lack any burst since elite nerf.

[youle.5824]

And condi mirage is still rly strong in good hands.

[Trigr.6481]

Nonexistent, this is the result of them taking away self shatter, and distortion. Getting rid of a shatter not only took away your defensive ability, and also everything that you can spec into regarding shatters is also indirectly nerfed as a result, which includes but not limited to, Deceptive evasion, blinding dissipation, Restorative illusions, Bountiful Disillusionment, etc. It effects our vigor uptime, boon uptime, and so on. Self shatter and distortion simply need to be reverted, and then you can take another shot at balance for chrono. That being said chrono in SPvP didn't even warrant nerfs in the first place in it's current implementation.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@bravan.3876 said:And i don't think the old slow trait was that bad at all in the first place.

The entire slow row was pitiful and was never used.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:And i don't think the old slow trait was that bad at all in the first place.

The entire slow row was pitiful and was never used.

I think it got underestimated just as a lot of stuff gets in a casual game with barely any good build crafting and competition. Playing vs nearly perma slow was annyoing as hell and a strong mechanic. It maybe was just less strong than the both other traits, or less useful in conquest where power shatter was not rly meta anyway. And the sustain phantasm spam build that was meta for a while ofc got more value and synergy out of Chronophantasma trait, that doesn't mean the slow trait was bad, it just means that builds with good synergy to the slow trait were as a whole not meta for other reasons. While for power shatter i think quickness vs slow or Chronophantasma vs slow was a closer decision. But this is just my opinion though. I can be wrong. In the end a little buff or a rework to distinguish the slow traits more from each other wouldn't have been an issue overall.

Still that doesn't change the fact, that they then OVERbuffed it to overshadow both other traits which were already very strong. Made them being unused as result (time to buff them too and power creep the traitline even more, or better nerf slow trait to a more healthy state?). And the whole skill design was just bad, rewarding simple cc spam that high on a class that has an instant range interrupt tool available (for good reasons, MoD is needed to make it even worth to build an interrupt build around that, needed to be range and instant to be able to reactively and on purpose and for that skillful interrupting keyskills with average 3/4 casttime , not even counting in quickness, without being god itself in reactiontime + having NASA connetion. Interrupting keyskills with MoD already needs an over average reaction time and good knowledge of all skill animations right from their caststart and often even still prediction).

With other words cc and interrupt traits on Mesmer need to be balanced around MoD (means: 1. no lock down cc like stun on Mantra, that was broken as hell with old CS trait, almost as brokena as old CI trait; 2. the interrupt reward is not allowed to be strong enough to be a killer mechanic when only lucky random interrupting autoattacks because then there is zero counterplay, you cannot perma cover all your skills incl autoattacks, that just means you only can run away in that encounter) and PB trait shows that such a skillful and healthy balance of the interrupt mechanic based on an range instant interrupt tool is possible.

With PB simple daze spam and lucky bad timed interrupts on autoattacks or a very lucky interrupt on a keyskill at a very lucky good moment with MoD is overall very low impact (not more impact than a lucky high crit at a very lucky good moment), clearly not a killer. Rly impactful and dangerous it only is with well timed interrupts of keykills, what then has high skill ceiling and a lot of counterplay for the opponent (every class has enough ressourced to cover keyskills at important moments, like heal with stabi, los, kiting out of range for the cast duration, aegis application, blocks which allow casting while blocking like Ele and Dh blocks, invuln skills, stowing to bait Mantra uses , cast during the cd and recharge times etc. Aside from the vulnerable time the Mesmer has when he needs to recharge it and can be easy interrupted even by longer cast time lock down cc or high pressured by dmg.Without mindful and well timed interrupts on keyskills (aside from some pure defensive dazes for the daze purpose only, to cover a second ofc, what are also skilled uses of daze) taking another utility and another trait on Mesmer would be way more rewarding while having lower skill cap.

Lot of Mesmers mains call PB too weak but in the end it is just as it needs to be to be balanced and healthy. Powermesmer problem overall is more that other classes are still too strong and too forgiving to play, with way more impact and reward based on less effort and less skill requirement. Ofc aside from the overkill of Powerrmirage and Powerchrono by the nonsense changes (one dodge on Mirgae, no IP and F4 on Chrono) which contradicts base mechanics (base shatter mechanic on Chrono, base dodge mechanic on Mirage) + elite mechanics and nerf around the real balance issues instead solving them. While there were for both Mesmer elite specs clearly better ways of balacing/nerfing and trade offing them, wihtout affecting all builds (including the not op and high skill ceiling builds) as a spin off and without deleting skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the elites.

But in the end it makes no sense at all, that a trait that procs on simple cc spam and not on interrupts like Lost Time (means a lower effort and lower skill ceiling trait) has a stronger reward overall than interrupt traits. PB and PI on Thief got heavily nerfed in base dmg (incl being unable to crit) for good reasons and those are interrupt traits not simple cc spam traits. Lost Time and double Mantra for double instant dmg both braindead spammable without interrupt-need decreased the skill cap from power shatter Chrono remarkable in an unhealthy low/ no counterplay way. And that is not just an opinion, that is simple balance logic.

I rly need to learn to talk more short... :unamused: Sorry for that.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:And i don't think the old slow trait was that bad at all in the first place.

The entire slow row was pitiful and was never used.

I think it got underestimated just as a lot of stuff gets in a casual game with barely any good build crafting and competition. Playing vs nearly perma slow was annyoing as hell and a strong mechanic. It maybe was just less strong than the both other traits, or less useful in conquest where power shatter was not rly meta anyway. And the sustain phantasm spam build that was meta for a while ofc got more value and synergy out of Chronophantasma trait, that doesn't mean the slow trait was bad, it just means that builds with good synergy to the slow trait were as a whole not meta for other reasons. While for power shatter i think quickness vs slow or Chronophantasma vs slow was a closer decision. But this is just my opinion though. I can be wrong. In the end a little buff or a rework to distinguish the slow traits more from each other wouldn't have been an issue overall.

Still that doesn't change the fact, that they then OVERbuffed it to overshadow both other traits which were already very strong. Made them being unused as result (time to buff them too and power creep the traitline even more, or better nerf slow trait to a more healthy state?). And the whole skill design was just bad, rewarding simple cc spam that high on a class that has an instant range interrupt tool available (for good reasons, MoD is needed to make it even worth to build an interrupt build around that, needed to be range and instant to be able to reactively and on purpose and for that skillful interrupting keyskills with average 3/4 casttime , not even counting in quickness, without being god itself in reactiontime + having NASA connetion. Interrupting keyskills with MoD already needs an over average reaction time and good knowledge of all skill animations right from their caststart and often even still prediction).

With other words cc and interrupt traits on Mesmer need to be balanced around MoD (means: 1. no lock down cc like stun on Mantra, that was broken as hell with old CS trait, almost as brokena as old CI trait; 2. the interrupt reward is not allowed to be strong enough to be a killer mechanic when only lucky random interrupting autoattacks because then there is zero counterplay, you cannot perma cover all your skills incl autoattacks, that just means you only can run away in that encounter) and PB trait shows that such a skillful and healthy balance of the interrupt mechanic based on an range instant interrupt tool is possible.

With PB simple daze spam and lucky bad timed interrupts on autoattacks or a very lucky interrupt on a keyskill at a very lucky good moment with MoD is overall very low impact (not more impact than a lucky high crit at a very lucky good moment), clearly not a killer. Rly impactful and dangerous it only is with well timed interrupts of keykills, what then has high skill ceiling and a lot of counterplay for the opponent (every class has enough ressourced to cover keyskills at important moments, like heal with stabi, los, kiting out of range for the cast duration, aegis application, blocks which allow casting while blocking like Ele and Dh blocks, invuln skills, stowing to bait Mantra uses , cast during the cd and recharge times etc. Aside from the vulnerable time the Mesmer has when he needs to recharge it and can be easy interrupted even by longer cast time lock down cc or high pressured by dmg.Without mindful and well timed interrupts on keyskills (aside from some pure defensive dazes for the daze purpose only, to cover a second ofc, what are also skilled uses of daze) taking another utility and another trait on Mesmer would be way more rewarding while having lower skill cap.

Lot of Mesmers mains call PB too weak but in the end it is just as it needs to be to be balanced and healthy. Powermesmer problem overall is more that other classes are still too strong and too forgiving to play, with way more impact and reward based on less effort and less skill requirement. Ofc aside from the overkill of Powerrmirage and Powerchrono by the nonsense changes (one dodge on Mirgae, no IP and F4 on Chrono) which contradicts base mechanics (base shatter mechanic on Chrono, base dodge mechanic on Mirage) + elite mechanics and nerf around the real balance issues instead solving them. While there were for both Mesmer elite specs clearly better ways of balacing/nerfing and trade offing them, wihtout affecting all builds (including the not op and high skill ceiling builds) as a spin off and without deleting skill ceiling, tactical deepness and mechanical complexity from the elites.

But in the end it makes no sense at all, that a trait that procs on simple cc spam and not on interrupts like Lost Time (means a lower effort and lower skill ceiling trait) has a stronger reward overall than interrupt traits. PB and PI on Thief got heavily nerfed in base dmg (incl being unable to crit) for good reasons and those are interrupt traits not simple cc spam traits. Lost Time and double Mantra for double instant dmg both braindead spammable without interrupt-need decreased the skill cap from power shatter Chrono remarkable in an unhealthy low/ no counterplay way. And that is not just an opinion, that is simple balance logic.

I rly need to learn to talk more short... :unamused: Sorry for that.

I was using it on a max condi duration build before the rework, it's was pretty fun but not as good as CP in terms of final impacts.And depending of the meta, people were equiped against condi.

About on rupt traits in general, you are facing class with builds with more reliable GM in general, and again, depending the meta, when you are facing a meta with class with high 75%+ stab/aegis/blind uptime or when in a meta when everyone is under quicknes (which is not the case anymore but was clearly not a good environnement for mind rupt.), it clearly didn't work well. This whatever skill you have, whereas there is traits who work without this amount of prerequite which will make rupts traits va very niche things. And I'm not talking about skill here but about optimal situations.Take for example mental amguish : it's will do high spike if you combo it with might/vuln on a lock on target. If you don't combo it with nice timing it will have way less impact but at last it will do something.So functionnally, having a little effect who activate even if no rupt isn't that bad considering other traits haven't this amount of prerequite.Now the uptime and combo with DT is another story.

Talking about counterplay when 80% of GM used in this game are just boost to existing spells is kinda meh imo.Mean did you just question you why interrupts are on the bottom line of usables traits ? And the "because most people are noob" isn't the answer (and is pretty pretentious).

Secondly, a rupt on keyskill is impactfull with or without rupt trait. We play on a game where everyone has at last 2 rupt in his build, sometimes 4 or + (sometimes on AOE) and they aren't mesmers. So the 15 sec more delay on rupt given by PB is in practise replaced by a teamate rotating their rupt to shutdown an opponent. So the effect on PB isn't that needed as soon as there is teamplay involved around a focus.

Stop talking about skill cap on every post you write please, landing a well timed mental amguish in melee under a optimal situation has nothing to envy to a PB launch on a keyskill at range. It's what I call efficiency.Dunno what you want to do talking about skill in literally every post, make every players feel bad taking traits you don't consider ? You are complexed about something ?

I call PB uneficient for the above reason and as long as :

• 80% of traits haven't drawback.
• Everyone can rupt.

It will be the case.

Pending for this, it make sense that interrupt traits have effect on disabled which they seems to take into account, in regards to vicious expression. And it's not just an opinion, it's simple balance logic. It's easier to rework the few interrupt traits than the other plethora.

To the OP and @Leonidrex.5649 :Fact that alacrity became a boon impacted chrono too.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254
I don't know what you did understand from my post but a lot from your answer feels like not fitting to what i said. Maybe some language problem jumped in again.First, i never said anything about ppl are too bad to play interrupt, i just made a basic analysis of mechanics in terms of how healthy and balanced it is designed by itself. What traits other classes have was also not relevant (and i even pointed out that Mesmers problem is more that other classes are still too strong and also too forgiving to play and not that Mesmer is too bad, aside from the Mirage one dodge and Chrono IP, F4 destruction ofc). I only mentioned the counterplay to MoD because lot of Mesmer hater crying about MoD being lame and low skill because it is max range instant. I just wanted to point out that this view is too trivial and misses reality. Quite the opposite is the case, MoD is one of the highest skill ceiling utilities (aside from stuff like portal), most reactive and with the most counterplay (as long as not combined with too strong or bad designed interrupt or cc spam traits).

My opinion about how good the slow trait was before they overbuffed it i clearly stated as opinion. Slow is a very annoying and strong condition in my view. And that a trait, that rewards simple cc spam instead interrupts has a higher reward than interrupt traits doesn't make sense. You can have traits that rewards simple cc spam in the game, but they should have less reward than traits you need to do more for to proc them. This is simple balance logic. And a cc spam trait reward also should not be too strong to be balanced. I never said traits rewarding simple cc spam should not exist, i just said how they need to be balanced to be healthy and not broken and fair compared to traits need more effort to proc. This is true, no matter what other classes have to offer in their traits. As always that other classes have also, or even more lame, op and unhealthy stuff is never a good counter argument. It just doesn't justify bad balance on a class that other classes have broken stuff too. Means yes, i agree that other classes have lot of stronger traits also providing pretty low skill ceiling, but that doesn't justify it on your main.

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 :To be short : every rupt trait should have a weak effect on disabled and an strong effect on rupt. (should it be for example with old LT 1 sec of slow when disabled, +2 if rupt.)You can't make suggestion with totally put apart the environnement where it take place.

[bravan.3876]

@viquing.8254 said:@"bravan.3876" :To be short : every rupt trait should have a weak effect on disabled and an strong effect on rupt.

No clue where you got that rule from, is it written in stone somewhere? Because logic is not dictating this rule. Interrupt traits don't need any effect when not interrupting. It would even lower their skill ceiling. They CAN have one but that would be subpar in terms of healthy and high skill ceiling balance. Also you can have traits rewarding the cc spam without the need to interrupt. But they are clearly lower skill ceiling and lower effort and for that balance logic says, that their reward needs to be lower/weaker compared to a pure interrupt trait. And that no matter on what class we have this mechanic. I would argue the same way when we would talk about a Warrior cc spam/ interrupt trait. Your bias Mainmesmer "Mesmer is soo weak compared to other classes"- PoV is annoying and limits you insanely for objective discussions.

You can't make suggestion with totally put apart the environnement where it take place.Ofc i can, or do i need to add balance suggestion for every class the moment i talk about one specidifc class? No ofc not, but we can both go into a Warrior thread and discuss Warrior balance there. My point is talking about a balance state where all classes have high skill ceiling and not overly broken or passive stuff. We will not progress in our discussion if we counter every balance issue claim with " but the other classes have lame stuff too mimimi" and justify every unhealthy mechanic with other unhealthy mechanics on other classes.I just make basic balance analysis based on logic, i can do that for all classes at same time (but than you have to read 3000000 wall of texts from me) or i do it for a specific class or a specific mechanic when it is the topic.

Ofc balance overall is always about comparision between classes but you can have balance on a state where all classes are just broken braindead and super low skill, where a bad player looks the same as a good player. It is balanced when it is the same braindead and broken state on all classes. But that is not a balance we want. So i talk about general balance logic leads into higher skill ceiling mechanics and more fairness in terms of effort-reward relation between different mechanics. You can have (and for diversity you need to have) traits and skills with different skill ceiling but balance logic dictates that lower effort/ lower skill requirement in traits/skills has to lead into a lower/ weaker trait/skill reward. Literally the basic rule for good balance on skilful lvl and not on "all is equally braindead" lvl.

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876stop with the immaginary skill ceiling, the point viq is trying to make is that there is no point in taking rupt traits that are 100% useless if you dont rupt when you can take traits that are ALWAYS good as GM, even if on average they would be better consistency is important. shit like 10stab ranger existed, gl interrupting that. or perma stab scrapper. and then it is a dead trait.@viquing.8254 I wouldnt know much about chrono from over 1year ago, have not played it back then. just heard some rumors.

[vareares.1932]

@Trigr.6481 said:Nonexistent, this is the result of them taking away self shatter, and distortion. Getting rid of a shatter not only took away your defensive ability, and also everything that you can spec into regarding shatters is also indirectly nerfed as a result, which includes but not limited to, Deceptive evasion, blinding dissipation, Restorative illusions, Bountiful Disillusionment, etc. It effects our vigor uptime, boon uptime, and so on. Self shatter and distortion simply need to be reverted, and then you can take another shot at balance for chrono. That being said chrono in SPvP didn't even warrant nerfs in the first place in it's current implementation.

I couldn’t have said it better myself, when you mess with the core mechanics your mess the entire spec up the problem with chrono wasn’t the shatters doing to much damage it was the mantras, lots of the utilities in Mesmer need some updating to fit the current meta of the game. For instance girl is a skill from core Mes that is like a curtain that grants 2 seconds of stealth not only is this skill not used but the cool down is 74 seconds, 2 seconds of stealth is not enough to do much and 74 seconds is rediulous

[Eddbopkins.2630]

The entire concept of ai damage, clone generation and visual clutter is just a failed class idea. Any changes to this class doesn't matter cuz when your fighting against it your not fighting one person your fight 3-6 because of clones. It's not a fun class to play against or look at.

[bravan.3876]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876stop with the immaginary skill ceiling, the point viq is trying to make is that there is no point in taking rupt traits that are 100% useless if you dont rupt when you can take traits that are ALWAYS good as GM, even if on average they would be better consistency is important. kitten like 10stab ranger existed, gl interrupting that. or perma stab scrapper. and then it is a dead trait.@viquing.8254 I wouldnt know much about chrono from over 1year ago, have not played it back then. just heard some rumors.

And that exactly depends on good balance. The interupt trait needs to be designed in a way it is more rewarding compared to a simple cc spam trait when you manage to interrupt keyskills - higher skill ceiling/effort - higher reward. Stop arguing with perma stabi neither pre patch and sure n ot post patch after boon duration reduction there ever was omnipresent perma stabi in the game/meta.

[bravan.3876]

@Eddbopkins.2630 said:The entire concept of ai damage, clone generation and visual clutter is just a failed class idea. Any changes to this class doesn't matter cuz when your fighting against it your not fighting one person your fight 3-6 because of clones. It's not a fun class to play against or look at.

The moment you got good at the game clones and finding the real Mesmer are not an issue anymore. I only agree to retargeting mechanic should be deleted, in particular when combined with random position change. GW2 targeting is too slow and bugy for such gimmicks and the whole mechanic is not healthy and randomness kills a lot of mind game potential on both sides (Mesmers and opponents). A lot of classes even have mechanics can use clones to their own advantage. Only problem is too high passive dmg on clones (normal autoattacks from condi clones and too high dmg on too passive designed condi clone ambushes).

[Leonidrex.5649]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876stop with the immaginary skill ceiling, the point viq is trying to make is that there is no point in taking rupt traits that are 100% useless if you dont rupt when you can take traits that are ALWAYS good as GM, even if on average they would be better consistency is important. kitten like 10stab ranger existed, gl interrupting that. or perma stab scrapper. and then it is a dead trait.@viquing.8254 I wouldnt know much about chrono from over 1year ago, have not played it back then. just heard some rumors.

And that exactly depends on good balance. The interupt trait needs to be designed in a way it is more rewarding compared to a simple cc spam trait when you manage to interrupt keyskills - higher skill ceiling/effort - higher reward. Stop arguing with perma stabi neither pre patch and sure n ot post patch after boon duration reduction there ever was omnipresent perma stabi in the game/meta.

ask yourself a question, how many enemies can you RELIABLY PB, not random skills bur important ones?guard? nope, mantra insta blind.mesmer? nope mirage cloak/f4 to cover.ranger? stab/stealthscrapper? stab/stealththief? pb doesnt even work xdele? no idea tbh ;pnecro? yep! it worksrev? not really, 1/4s cast heal + offense/defence kinda approach.warrior? yep!PB cd increase isnt even all that valuable, unless you rupt the heal. for the most part its 1k dmg + weakness. its mostly a way to not get 1shot by bruiser power builds like warrior. And to top it off its double unreliable. 1 you have to proc it, which takes effort and can be countered, but even if you do you just might not get glancing hits #unlucky no value xd

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :To be short : every rupt trait should have a weak effect on disabled and an strong effect on rupt.

No clue where you got that rule from, is it written in stone somewhere? Because logic is not dictating this rule. Interrupt traits don't need any effect when not interrupting. It would even lower their skill ceiling. They CAN have one but that would be subpar in terms of healthy and high skill ceiling balance. Also you can have traits rewarding the cc spam without the need to interrupt. But they are clearly lower skill ceiling and lower effort and for that balance logic says, that their reward needs to be lower/weaker compared to a pure interrupt trait. And that no matter on what class we have this mechanic. I would argue the same way when we would talk about a Warrior cc spam/ interrupt trait. Your bias Mainmesmer "Mesmer is soo weak compared to other classes"- PoV is annoying and limits you insanely for objective discussions.

It's the abstract of why rupt traits will never be tooken apart from "fun" as long as we are in a situation decribed in my above answer which is unlikely to happen.You know some "logic". And I'm not talking about "skill". Your "mesmer should all play power block and be good" reasonnement with skill ceiling in every post you write is annoying too and ofc not objective.

You can't make suggestion with totally put apart the environnement where it take place.Ofc i can...

No you can't because again 80% of traits in this game are just pure buff.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

Thoughtful interrupt in this game doesn't work, sure you can save one rupt for the healing but you end up having a better reward rupting whatever is thrown at you.There's no skill involved in this game, skills are badly design, low risk high reward, and promote thoughless spam.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:Thoughtful interrupt in this game doesn't work, sure you can save one rupt for the healing but you end up having a better reward rupting whatever is thrown at you.There's no skill involved in this game, skills are badly design, low risk high reward, and promote thoughless spam.

Aight, why provide better ideas to change that. Just give up and buff everything that is not that braindead already to an equally braindead lvl. Makes sense! We can close the forum at this point, there is no need to discuss anymore. Anet just buff everything to completely braindead lvl (that lvl should be easy to hit in an equal state on all classes) and we are done here.... or better just shut down servers your game is too low skill and can't be saved anyway. Let us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum.

To everything else you said about interrupts i disagree. You can interrupt often enough, counter is there sure, but that is how it should be and counter is not omnipresent/permanent and also dependent on reaction time and skill lvl of the opponent (again how it should be). You can interrupt specific skills on purpose without problems to make that rewarding and useful to play. I see ppl doing it, i can do it myself. Not with cast time skills like lock down cc ofc (but those skills are not meant for interrupts, they are meant to hit follow up dmg combos after lock down) but with Steal, MoD, Headshot (in close /mid range), instant Necro fear skills for certain with every skill is instant/ as good as instant. If you can't than you either lack in knowledge about skill animations or reaction time, or maybe a not good enough connection or whatever. It is ofc harder to play and subpar to all the braindead low effort-high reward stuff in the game but it is possible also vs good players. No more prove needed. And the teamsupport effect from well timed Pb interrupts for higher cc on not only heal but also big cc and burst skills, peeling for teammates and weakness application is clearly underestimated. How much less dmg and cc uptime you have on opponent team with 15 secs instead 4 secs interrupt cd on the right skills is immense (you buy much more time for yourself or teammates to get cds back, includign endurance reggen, way more than in only 4 seconds). And a Mesmer rly can interrupt often enough when looking at its cds to make a decent interrupt build with it. You are all just too used to all the power creeped low effort high reward stuff in the game i guess.

@viquing.8254 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :To be short : every rupt trait should have a weak effect on disabled and an strong effect on rupt.

No clue where you got that rule from, is it written in stone somewhere? Because logic is not dictating this rule. Interrupt traits don't need any effect when not interrupting. It would even lower their skill ceiling. They CAN have one but that would be subpar in terms of healthy and high skill ceiling balance. Also you can have traits rewarding the cc spam without the need to interrupt. But they are clearly lower skill ceiling and lower effort and for that balance logic says, that their reward needs to be lower/weaker compared to a pure interrupt trait. And that no matter on what class we have this mechanic. I would argue the same way when we would talk about a Warrior cc spam/ interrupt trait. Your bias Mainmesmer "Mesmer is soo weak compared to other classes"- PoV is annoying and limits you insanely for objective discussions.

It's the abstract of why rupt traits will never be tooken apart from "fun" as long as we are in a situation decribed in my above answer which is unlikely to happen.You know some "logic". And I'm not talking about "skill". Your "mesmer should all play power block and be good" reasonnement with skill ceiling in every post you write is annoying too and ofc not objective.

You can't make suggestion with totally put apart the environnement where it take place.Ofc i can...

No you can't because again 80% of traits in this game are just pure buff.

Interrupt traits are also pure buffs just that you have to do more to get it. This can be a better option when the skill reward is fair designed, means stronger when you do the more effort. That is exactly the point. And one reason this game is so braindead and low skill is that Anet doesn't follow that simple balance rule to make higher skill requirement/ higher effort/ higher risk more rewarding than low effort/ low skill requirement/ low risk stuff. Often it is quite the opposite. The failed balance in the sustain-dmg relation is part of this problem (most traitlines have too little opportunity costs in either dmg or sustain is one reason for that).

Lot of stuff is still way too passive or if active than too low effort for still big reward, like Warrior Defense traitline for example. Would you disagree here too and would argue that making Defenseline less passive and higher skill ceiling would be bad and unfair to poor Warriors due to all the lame stuff on other classes? And would you say here too, that it is just fair compared to all other classes so it should just stay at it is, and that providing ideas to make Warrior a class with more healthy mechancis and with more skill requirement would be a waste of time because GW2 is so braindead and no skill aynway? I guess not. Otherwise ( @Lincolnbeard.1735 ) i do not understand why you even take the time to read and write in this forum anymore.

Anyway to say it short: Lost Time was overbuffed and for that as pure cc spam trait totally broken and unhealthy designed, in particular on a class with access to an instant range interrupt tool. That is so obvious that i am not in the mood anymore to have a big discussion over it during we also get carried away and ramble on.

Chrono needs some rework, it is completely destroyed by contradicted mechanics from nonsense low effort trade offs didn't even solve the underlying balance issues but buffing Lost Time to its old state is clearly not what should be done. Give IP and F4 back, and give stat penalty to compensate for the more cds Chronos get from CS reset as trade off aside from the shatter rework, instead killing basic mechanics with a sledge hammer.

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@bravan.3876 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@bravan.3876stop with the immaginary skill ceiling, the point viq is trying to make is that there is no point in taking rupt traits that are 100% useless if you dont rupt when you can take traits that are ALWAYS good as GM, even if on average they would be better consistency is important. kitten like 10stab ranger existed, gl interrupting that. or perma stab scrapper. and then it is a dead trait.@viquing.8254 I wouldnt know much about chrono from over 1year ago, have not played it back then. just heard some rumors.

And that exactly depends on good balance. The interupt trait needs to be designed in a way it is more rewarding compared to a simple cc spam trait when you manage to interrupt keyskills - higher skill ceiling/effort - higher reward. Stop arguing with perma stabi neither pre patch and sure n ot post patch after boon duration reduction there ever was omnipresent perma stabi in the game/meta.

ask yourself a question, how many enemies can you RELIABLY PB, not random skills bur important ones?guard? nope, mantra insta blind.mesmer? nope mirage cloak/f4 to cover.ranger? stab/stealthscrapper? stab/stealththief? pb doesnt even work xdele? no idea tbh ;pnecro? yep! it worksrev? not really, 1/4s cast heal + offense/defence kinda approach.warrior? yep!PB cd increase isnt even all that valuable, unless you rupt the heal. for the most part its 1k dmg + weakness. its mostly a way to not get 1shot by bruiser power builds like warrior. And to top it off its double unreliable. 1 you have to proc it, which takes effort and can be countered, but even if you do you just might not get glancing hits #unlucky no value xd

My 80 yo grandma would maybe agree to you. But you can interrupt Revs very impactful, s3, sword offhand burst skills, the teleportutility etcYou can interrupt Guards gs whirl burst, hammer burst, hammer cc ring cast, you can interrupt Fb when trying to recharge Mantras very impactful (also when the longer cd does not work here), Fb Mantras have closer range than MoD btw., no need to get blinded when going for an interrupt etc.I can do that for all classes you mentioned as not interruptable in any meaningful way. In fact they all are interruptable and all will be punished for getting interrupted well timed at right moment on right skills in offensive or defensive rotations by PB, aside from just heal rupts. Thief is the only class rly counters Pb remarkable but even there interrupting heartseeker stealth combos can be very rewarding and fight deciding. Sword 2 back port use prevention by daze (not even interrupt) can be fight deciding etc. I am not sure if interrupting the consume of the Steal skill triggers longer PB cd. But it should be like that because it has a cd (actually the orb has no cd but there are steal skills with cd can proc PB cd increase like the Ranger healfield tree, whatever Mesmer is just hardcountered by Thief anyway, no matter what build).

That you can't do it always and that classes have tools to counter and cover casts doesn't make it useless it makes it balanced, while no counter stuff should not exist in the game on no class. Otherwise we can argue that each dmg skill should have a little effect when it gets counterd by dodge, blind, invuln etc and do not hit, so that no skill/trait can be completely neutralized by counterplay.

[viquing.8254]

@"bravan.3876" :if you can't get the difference between PB and Superiority complex, I can't argue anything with you, you will always wrote blocs of text based on data with half parameters considering only things that goes in your sense with not taking care of the overall view.To say it short : trait like PB like traits will always be subpar as long as everyone has 2+ CC in his toolbar while having more efficient traits and it's more than unlikely that they will rework the vast majority of traits.

Anyway to say it short: Lost Time was subpar before the rework and is subpar currently even with IP back.

I already answer about chrono and I'm not for a IP back (mesmer was usable during core without it) but for different gameplay than just "core gameplay with different CD".And yeah it's been since HoT that I wrote that as long as CP and CS exist, it will be hell to balance.

---

About your grandma :A good rev will blind you or staff CC you or cast under quickness his 3 sword. Rupting his damaging skills isn't this impactfull as giving +15 sec CD on them ins't this usefull as they will just uses another damaging skill who will be impactful and just will their normal rotation aoe they can make you half life.Same for FB, I never see a plat 2+ FB freecasting a mantra with no LoS + blind, stab or teamate assist.

Even if is moons are aligned and you rupt an opponent, what's the gain rupting an opponent while you can just coordinate to chain rupt with everyone basic CC who is already strong and sufficient in near all case.And in situation where not in teamplay chances are high you are facing thieves on which PB is useless as hell. And yes it work on plasma but situations where thieves cast plasma while not in LoS/out of range are very few, particulary if they know you run PB.

Most rupt situations didn't need longer CD on rupt.

[Lincolnbeard.1735]

@"bravan.3876" said:us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum "

Alright.1 - introduce some kind of energy management, rework all skills.2 - delete initiative, introduce cds and rework thief skills3 - introduce cds to revenant utilities, rework skills and remove the get 50% of energy back on legend swap.4 - delete the evades imbued on weapon skills.5 - remove a bunch of ccs and all stability from game.6 - remove all passives and all rng.7 - quickness makes you take double damage.8 - power block gets a CD (it already has but w/e)9 - conditions stack to a max amount of damage (example: 3k damage it doesn't matter how many condis and how much stacks you have) the damage that isn't ticking negates regen and healing.

Of course something like this will never happen, hence why there is no reason to lose timetrying to get a game that was never skill demanding to change that.

[bravan.3876]

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@"bravan.3876" said:us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum "

Alright.1 - introduce some kind of energy management, rework all skills.2 - delete initiative, introduce cds and rework thief skills3 - introduce cds to revenant utilities, rework skills and remove the get 50% of energy back on legend swap.4 - delete the evades imbued on weapon skills.5 - remove a bunch of ccs and all stability from game.6 - remove all passives and all rng.7 - quickness makes you take double damage.8 - power block gets a CD (it already has but w/e)9 - conditions stack to a max amount of damage (example: 3k damage it doesn't matter how many condis and how much stacks you have) the damage that isn't ticking negates regen and healing.

Of course something like this will never happen, hence why there is no reason to lose timetrying to get a game that was never skill demanding to change that.

You will change the game completely to something else, into a completely different game you like more (maybe GW1?) you are not trying to balance the current GW2 game by keepeing it mechanics. That is not constructive. Btw Interrupt traits don't need a cd just like ICDs on dodge traits are nonsense. The interrupt need is already the limitation. Some of your suggestions could be considered (the quickness one sounds interesting on the first view for example) but stuff like your Thief suggestions are just biased and do not accept GW2 in its nature at all.

@viquing.8254 said:@"bravan.3876" :if you can't get the difference between PB and Superiority complex, I can't argue anything with you, you will always wrote blocs of text based on data with half parameters considering only things that goes in your sense with not taking care of the overall view.To say it short : trait like PB like traits will always be subpar as long as everyone has 2+ CC in his toolbar while having more efficient traits and it's more than unlikely that they will rework the vast majority of traits.

Anyway to say it short: Lost Time was subpar before the rework and is subpar currently even with IP back.

I already answer about chrono and I'm not for a IP back (mesmer was usable during core without it) but for different gameplay than just "core gameplay with different CD".And yeah it's been since HoT that I wrote that as long as CP and CS exist, it will be hell to balance.

---

About your grandma :A good rev will blind you or staff CC you or cast under quickness his 3 sword. Rupting his damaging skills isn't this impactfull as giving +15 sec CD on them ins't this usefull as they will just uses another damaging skill who will be impactful and just will their normal rotation aoe they can make you half life.Same for FB, I never see a plat 2+ FB freecasting a mantra with no LoS + blind, stab or teamate assist.

Even if is moons are aligned and you rupt an opponent, what's the gain rupting an opponent while you can just coordinate to chain rupt with everyone basic CC who is already strong and sufficient in near all case.And in situation where not in teamplay chances are high you are facing thieves on which PB is useless as hell. And yes it work on plasma but situations where thieves cast plasma while not in LoS/out of range are very few, particulary if they know you run PB.

Most rupt situations didn't need longer CD on rupt.

Ofc i get the difference between Pb and Superiority Complex, they have a different position in the active-passive continuum for exactly that reason. That doesn't change the basic balance rule that stuff that is more passive and lower skill cieling should have less reward than something that needs more effort/ skill or risk to proc/ work. Aside from the fact that SC does not compete with PB. SC competes with DE but there you have the same. DE is way less passive gives way more ways of active and tactical usage than a simple dmg multiplicator just imrpoving dmg on all skills on a random crit proc the player cannot even time himself, he just can higher the chance of crits by equipping precision. His gameplay will not be affected at all by SC, it is just a passive dmg multiplier working in the background on all skills. It is ok and a game needs to have those kind of traits too and in a game with good balance more active and higher skill ceiling traits can compete with them simply by rewarding the more skill or effort with higher reward. This basic balance rule is already implemented in GW2 it is just not put in the needed equilibrium because on a lot of classes (includign Mesmer) low effort and low skill ceiling stuff, more passive stuff is overall more rewarding than high risk/ high skill ceiling/ high effort stuff. And that needs to be adjusted all over the game for all classes. Reworking GW2 into a different game is not needed to add more skill into it.

You just mentioning counterplay to interrupts but those don't make it useless. You just claim that the higher PB cd on skills is meaninless while i can tell you from the inside and outside perspective that it has great impact. A lot of ppl (ofc not Mesmer mains) call PB op still (what is not true either). But it is the same state as with the power ambushes, you cannot use them active and tactical, others clearly can, you cannot interrupt often and meaningful enough on good ppl, other player obviously can. Believe what you want at this point. It is your limitation not mine. Your friend Odik will even disagree with you here, he told me how he interrupted a rezz signet of a Guard like 6 times in a game and as far as i know he plays in higher PvP division too when playing. Ofc a Fb who gets interrupted that often during a match after he knows that an interrupt Mesmer with MoD is around missplayed but even vs good ppl you find enough opportunities for impactful interrupts. Because you are not the only player they need to care about, use their cds for and need to defend themself from in a match. And even in duels you can interrupt impactful a lot. The playstyle ofc needs more skill and is harder to play and for that subpar to low effort high reward stuff but that doesn't make it impossible. And my argumentation is, that all classes should get more of those higher skill ceiling, higher tactical deepness, more skillful counterplay including stuff instead all the power creeped low effort high reward stuff they still have access too. It seems at least the patch philosophy tries to go into that direction, only the implementation is in a lot of cases just bad or in case of Mirage one dodge change and Chrono changes even compeltely nonesense. But the philosophy is already there. And i will continue to argue for an overall higher skill ceiling balance on all classes, including Mesmers. And no biased mains of any class will change that. It is not that Mains from other classes never try to justify braindead stuff on their classes too, ofc they do the same, just like you do it here. Funny is when then all the non mains of that class totally agree with me because this time i do not talk about their own main class xD

[viquing.8254]

@bravan.3876 said:

@Lincolnbeard.1735 said:

@bravan.3876 said:us all stop wasting time with playing and giving ideas for better balance on forum "

Alright.1 - introduce some kind of energy management, rework all skills.2 - delete initiative, introduce cds and rework thief skills3 - introduce cds to revenant utilities, rework skills and remove the get 50% of energy back on legend swap.4 - delete the evades imbued on weapon skills.5 - remove a bunch of ccs and all stability from game.6 - remove all passives and all rng.7 - quickness makes you take double damage.8 - power block gets a CD (it already has but w/e)9 - conditions stack to a max amount of damage (example: 3k damage it doesn't matter how many condis and how much stacks you have) the damage that isn't ticking negates regen and healing.

Of course something like this will never happen, hence why there is no reason to lose timetrying to get a game that was never skill demanding to change that.

You will change the game completely to something else, into a completely different game you like more (maybe GW1?) you are not trying to balance the current GW2 game by keepeing it mechanics. That is not constructive. Btw Interrupt traits don't need a cd just like ICDs on dodge traits are nonsense. The interrupt need is already the limitation. Soem of your suggestions could be considered (the quickness one on the first view for example) but stuff like yoru Thief suggestions are just biased and do not accept GW2 in its nature at a.

@viquing.8254 said:@bravan.3876 :if you can't get the difference between PB and Superiority complex, I can't argue anything with you, you will always wrote blocs of text based on data with half parameters considering only things that goes in your sense with not taking care of the overall view.To say it short : trait like PB like traits will always be subpar as long as everyone has 2+ CC in his toolbar while having more efficient traits and it's more than unlikely that they will rework the vast majority of traits.

Anyway to say it short: Lost Time was subpar before the rework and is subpar currently even with IP back.

I already answer about chrono and I'm not for a IP back (mesmer was usable during core without it) but for different gameplay than just "core gameplay with different CD".And yeah it's been since HoT that I wrote that as long as CP and CS exist, it will be hell to balance.

---

About your grandma :A good rev will blind you or staff CC you or cast under quickness his 3 sword. Rupting his damaging skills isn't this impactfull as giving +15 sec CD on them ins't this usefull as they will just uses another damaging skill who will be impactful and just will their normal rotation aoe they can make you half life.Same for FB, I never see a plat 2+ FB freecasting a mantra with no LoS + blind, stab or teamate assist.

Even if is moons are aligned and you rupt an opponent, what's the gain rupting an opponent while you can just coordinate to chain rupt with everyone basic CC who is already strong and sufficient in near all case.And in situation where not in teamplay chances are high you are facing thieves on which PB is useless as hell. And yes it work on plasma but situations where thieves cast plasma while not in LoS/out of range are very few, particulary if they know you run PB.

Most rupt situations didn't need longer CD on rupt.

Ofc i get the difference between Pb and Superiority Complex, they have a different position in the active-passive continuum for exactly that reason. That doesn't change the basic balance rule that stuff that is more passive and lower skill cieling should have less reward than something that needs more effort/ skill or risk to proc/ work. Aside from the fact that SC does not compete with PB. SC competes with DE but there you have the same. DE is way less passive gives way more ways of active and tactical usage than a simple dmg multiplicator just imrpoving dmg on all skills on a random crit proc the player cannot even time himself, he just can higher the chance of crits by equipping precision. His gameplay will not be affected at all by SC, it is just a passive dmg multiplier working in the background on all skills. It is ok and a game needs to have those kind of traits too and in a game with good balance more active and higher skill ceiling traits can compete with them simply by rewarding the more skill or effort with higher reward. This basic balance rule is already implemented in GW2 it is just not put in the needed equilibrium because on a lot of classes (includign Mesmer) low effort and low skill ceiling stuff, more passive stuff is overall more rewarding than high risk/ high skill ceiling/ high effort stuff. And that needs to be adjusted all over the game for all classes. Reworking GW2 into a different game is not needed to add more skill into it.

You just mentioning counterplay to interrupts doesn't make it useless. You jst claim that the higher PB cd on skills is meanign less while i can tell you from the inside andoutside perspective that it has great impact. A lotof ppl (ofc not Mesmer mains) call PB op still (what is not true either). But it is the same state as with the power ambushes, you cannot use them active and tactical, others clearly can, you cannot interrupt often and meaningful enough on good ppl, other player obviously can. Believe what you want at this point. It is your limitation not mine. Your friend Odik will even disagree with you here, he told me how he interrupted a rezz signet of a Guard like 6 times in a game and as far as i know he plays in higher PvP division too when playing. Ofc a Fb who gets interrupted that often during a match after he knows that an interrupt Mesmer with MoD is around missplayed but even vs good ppl you find enough opportunities for impactful interrupts. Because you are not the only player they need to care about, use their cds for, they need to defend themself from in a match. And even in duels you can interrupt impactful a lot. The playstyle ofc needs more skill and is harder to play and for that subpar to low effort high reward stuff but that doesn't make it impossible. And my argumentation is, that all classes should get more of those higher skill ceiling, higher tactical deepness, more skillful counterplay including stuff instead all the power creeped low effort high reward stuff they still have access too. It seems at least the patch philosophy tries to go into that direction, only the implementation is in a lot of cases just bad or in case of Mirage one dodge change and Chrono changes even compeltely nonesense. But the philosophy is already there. And i will continue to argue for an overall higher skill ceiling balance on all classes, including Mesmers. And no biased mains of any class will change that. It is not that Mains from other classes just try to justify braindead stuff on their classes too, just like you do it here. Funny is when then all the non mains of that class totally agree with me because this time i do not talk about their own main class xD

The day they make PB skills like as rewarding as SC traits like you will have 100k+ whine post on forum about skill ceiling trait being op and the poor casual die in few second versus them while not having the possibility to rollface (just look at confusion whine on a confusion with a 3 sec duration...). Which is really unlikely to happen and that's why I think considering the player base and how the vast majority of traits are built, the most reasonnable solution is to give an effect on disabled on every lock trait while giving them a stronger effect when rupt so that they aren't way more unefficient as other traits, conserv somehow a bonus when timed and don't make plethora of whine on them because too strong.

Mentioning counterplay to interrupts when even your grandma could counter with plenthy of option make it useless yeah.It has a great impact on certain class on certain situation. basically you are +1 ing an ele or duelling a war at a point. In literraly every other situation, normal rupt will do the job.Ok, before again saying I'm a noob who didn't enter the matrix yet, like you usually do with your usual snobism, describe me the active and tactical uses of PB. Because I never see a plat2+ player using PB since me playing Jazz build (and no someone playing 20 game/season or duelling people in 1v1 arena isn't a plat2 player.). And don't give me the usual answer that good player didn't play please.Not even talking about the FB level, my friend Odik could rupt the rezz signet of the gard even with no PB and you don't need +15 sec to finish a down.

You really think that if you ask people : would you like to balance a class to a spec in which you easy kill them ? they will answer no ?Funny when you think that non mains of a class aren't biased, particulary when most of them have never played it, nethier understand the gameplay around.I will not make suggestion on other class changes because I don't know enough about them.

[bravan.3876]

The rezz signet example was giving to show that it is possible to interrupt keyskills. Ofc the rezz signet is one of the very few examples where the 15sec cd increase from PB is not that relevant most of the time. I just mentioned that because you said no good Fb will ever be able to be interupted on keyskills in keysituations and that is simply not true. It happens all the time. As said believe what you want about how useful and possible meaningful interrupts and the PB traitreward are, it is your limitation. I will just stop arguing with you about that here.

Ofc non mains are biased too just in the other direction. that is why ppl either call me a hater of a class i try to make balances suggestions for, or they call me main player of that class. Depending if i ask for buffs or nerfs or what kind of reworks i suggest. That was exactly my point. But language barrier probably hits again here.

Anyway buff Chrono!

And Thief!

[viquing.8254]

I never call you a mesmer hater but sometimes I really think you should be more playing the game than writing 100 lines blocs on the forum.