Path of Fire is unrewarding

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:I find the concept of running events on identical 2 hour cycles every day to be the worst design decision the ANet people ever made. Bar none. It's disastrously awkward for people who play roughly the same hours whenever they play, and just incredibly annoying for people who don't intend to synch their agendas with the demands of a light entertainment video game.

And not having a timer means you cannot sync anything. You cannot say to your guild when to gather up to do an event as a guild, you cannot use the LFG to pre-gather people for an event, you cannot do anything. Without a set timer running events is incredibly annoying for everyone, someone with a lot of time to play cannot do them, someone without any time to play will have to pray to RNG for the event to be up during their play time frame.

You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that non-regularity always and absolutely removes agency from players. I call kitten excrement on that. Ever heard of Silverwastes? Player-driven progress, not clock-enslaved. Dozens of instances in different stages of completion at most hours of the day.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:mad, HoT before april 2016 patch was much more gated with events only after players complained anet changed it, it's not like hot was perfect since release, it still isn't, time to take off nostalgia goggles

There was no exploration gating at release. You needed to finish events to get your participation in order to get rewards. That's wasn't a very good system and it was good they changed it.

I still go and finish the meta events in Heart of Thorns, because I know when they are happening and go there to finish them.On the other hand, I'm not looking forward to doing Junundu Rising, Forged with Fire or Maw of Torment PoF meta events ever again.Why? Because I don't have a clue when they are up to go there and finish them. Core Tyria meta events are not like this, they have fail states, if one of the pre-events fail it leads to a fail state that players can still finish to continue the meta event. Other events have pre-events without time limits which allows players to gather up to finish those events on their own schedule. Others have very clear stages that are visible from a huge distance and allow you to know the state of the meta event and decide if you want to participate or not.The PoF meta events have no visibility, no fail states, no timers, they have the worst possible accessibility of any meta Anet has ever done so far, combining the worst parts of core tyria and hot meta events in one.Even if they buffed the rewards of the PoF meta events considerably, they'll still suck and not attract players. The rewards are part of the problem, a huge part, but not the only problem with the PoF meta events.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that non-regularity always and absolutely removes agency from players. I call kitten excrement on that. Ever heard of Silverwastes? Player-driven progress, not clock-enslaved. Dozens of instances in different stages of completion at most hours of the day.

Back in the day but not anymore. Finding a Silverwastes that is about to do Vinewrath is not as easy now. And then you have to figure out if it's CF map or a meta map, and go over the non-sense of arguing with players over it. And starting from a fresh map and going up to Vinewrath takes quite a lot of time.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Manasa Devi.7958 said:You seem to be laboring under the misapprehension that non-regularity always and absolutely removes agency from players. I call kitten excrement on that. Ever heard of Silverwastes? Player-driven progress, not clock-enslaved. Dozens of instances in different stages of completion at most hours of the day.

Back in the day but not anymore. Finding a Silverwastes that is about to do Vinewrath is not as easy now. And then you have to figure out if it's CF map or a meta map, and go over the non-sense of arguing with players over it. And starting from a fresh map and going up to Vinewrath takes quite a lot of time.

What makes you think that every new map they might design with player-driven progress in its meta-events will have to run into exactly the same problems as Silverwastes? Maybe there won't be a chest running thing going on? Maybe it'll take less time to run through a complete cycle? Less than 2 hours even, perhaps!

[Rauderi.8706]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:Verdant Brink: Canopy. Yes,

technically

there are ways to sneak up there, but it's not straightforward, and I'm not sure it's entirely intended.

It's not even hard to go to the Canopy. You go to the Shrouded Ruins Waypoint and follow the vine up. Then you can use the updrafts to go anywhere you like, and besides that, night time lasts 45 minutes, there is no reason to "sneak up". Nothing is blocked in VB

Missing the point. Unless someone knows the "trick" to get up to the Canopy, it is locked until the night bosses. And then, everyone's supposed to be doing the bosses, not the hero challenges or exploration. No one's going to Guano when Matriarch is going to take 12 of the 20 minutes given to do it. That's right, 20. Because the copters don't show up until it's time for the bosses. Half of the Night phase is mostly defending bases.So again, asterisk.But to new players? Blocked.For veterans, it's still wibbling around the map to get to some place that should be more readily accessible.

Auric Basin: Southwatch, and a section of Northwatch are blocked off at some point. The Eastwatch part of the meta requires some very specific attention, or it won't progress, which means no Vinetooth.

Technically

, there is a way to sneak into some of the spots in Northwatch, made easier by mounts.

Southwatch requires some solo events to unlock a single POI. Northwatch has one POI that is blocked, should be accessible now with mounts though. Eastwatch can be explored without any problems and Vinetooth isn't part of exploration.

And if those events aren't running? Locked.I need a mount for HoT? That seems off, and doesn't speak well of the map design.Vinetooth isn't part of map completion, but it is a part of a large number of collections, and if that first Eastwatch event doesn't get done (nigh impossible to solo), then it ain't happening, and it's a several hour wait until the next opportunity.

So it's not "false", it's "Boolean statement with an asterisk." I've seen many newer players to HoT that don't have all the gliding and tricks and masteries get very frustrated by the experience, so I'm very glad that PoF didn't copy that.

There are a LOT of places in PoF that are locked if you don't have the appropriate mount, or mount mastery, unlocked. For some reasons it's a problem when you need Nuhoch Wallows (the first mastery of Nuhoch) while requiring to unlock Skimmer and get to tier 3 is not frustrating at all. PoF copied the exact same thing just fine, but for some reason it's fine because it's PoF, while the same thing in HoT is the end of the world. Nice double standards.

HoT had some other significant problems that were smoothed in PoF.Mastery locks? Sure, but PoF does them in a logical order. I finished all of Crystal Oasis with just a leveled up raptor. I didn't need jackal to finish Highlands (barring some of the mastery points, which are plentiful). HoT required Nuhoch masteries (from the third map) for Verdant Brink (the first map) at one point, until it was updated. Even then, Axemaster is still requiring Nuhoch stealth detection.All the basic versions of the mounts were easy to get. Getting to the required movement masteries in HoT required quite a few mastery points, and some of those came from Adventures which, recursively, required masteries be completed. The whole flow of it was a mess.

Imagine, for a moment, that they weren't on super-long timers. It'd be

easier

to get into them, because they would be rotating more frequently. The chain timing just to make them "flow" from one to another might have been a cute story-related shtick once, but it made actually tracking them a chore and shuts out players without much time to participate.

How would it be easier?

NOW

with 2-hour delays you can barely make it into the meta due to the need to taxi over.You can check this out:

http://gw2timer.com/

As you can clearly see there is no time to put any of the meta events without overlapping with other meta events. The schedule leaves nothing empty. A simple move around means anyone who is interesting in finishing all the meta events, or at least 2 or more, will be severely hampered and take MORE time to finish it. Hurting the players who are actually enjoying the meta events in the long run isn't a good idea. In fact, now we have only Casino Blitz and the Highlands: Treasure meta events in PoF, they should really fill the PoF schedule with more events.

Because I should always need an overlay or external clock to tell me what's going on. :-1:And who needs to every event in some kind of manic chain blitz?

But yes, timers. There are some bosses I don't do, because they're on a 3-hour rotation. Mercy, that's horrible.And for other metas, the set clock is exactly the reason why taxis are abused to make it into meta maps leaving everyone else to shrug and leave. "Dragon Stand not running? Oh well, guess I just won't do it and log off."

Silverwastes is still considered one of the better maps. Mostly player driven, almost always something to do, and decent loot to go with it.

I find Silverwastes to be the worst designed map in the entire game, especially now that there aren't enough people running there so finding an actual Vinewrath event map is hard. For those without time to participate Silverwastes is a nightmare. Go and find a Vinewrath map in less time than it takes to finish a HoT meta...

One, I always see people when I go to Silverwastes. If not, solution: taxis. Always taxis. Just like every other meta.If Silverwastes has a problem, it's that no one wants to stick around for defense events to raise the fort tiers. It requires harnessing the map and keeping people committed to a location, just as much as filling lanes in a successful Gerent run. Only difference is, if the chak overrun a canon, it's a two hour wait. If the forts don't quite level, there's always opportunity to level them.But I get the sense that this is about "I want my loot faster on a timer" than actually playing the meta, for which taxi-bosses make things convenient. So going back to the original theme of the thread, perhaps the rewards for completing steps in a meta need to be more compelling, so people stop trying to hop in at the last second to get the big loot boxes from a boss and then ninja to the next one.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:What makes you think that every new map they might design with player-driven progress in its meta-events will have to run into exactly the same problems as Silverwastes? Maybe there won't be a chest running thing going on? Maybe it'll take less time to run through a complete cycle? Less than 2 hours even, perhaps!

Since it's player-driven can't really have a fixed "time" for completion right?But that's all completely beside the point, I'm comparing the HoT meta events with the PoF events, not with a hypothetical meta event that looks like Silverwastes but is not Silverwastes and doesn't even exist in the game.You should check my response to Kheldorn and my previous posts on this thread when I seriously outline what PoF events do NOT have that exist in Core Tyria meta events, namely failure states, and pre-events without timers. They could've used those mechanics, a modified Silverwastes as you say, but they didn't, they used a messy, low quality meta event version and I'm pointing out that the version they used is inferior to HoT meta events.

[GrubySzymek.1362]

There was no exploration gating at release. You needed to finish events to get your participation in order to get rewards. That's wasn't a very good system and it was good they changed it.

HP under Tarir has been gated. You had to complete octovine. Just one example as I'm too lazy to paste here more. HoT was heavy gated, now it isn't but only after people complained about it.

[Manasa Devi.7958]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:What makes you think that every new map they might design with player-driven progress in its meta-events will have to run into exactly the same problems as Silverwastes? Maybe there won't be a chest running thing going on? Maybe it'll take less time to run through a complete cycle? Less than 2 hours even, perhaps!

Since it's player-driven can't really have a fixed "time" for completion right?But that's all completely beside the point, I'm comparing the HoT meta events with the PoF events, not with a hypothetical meta event that looks like Silverwastes but is not Silverwastes and doesn't even exist in the game.You should check my response to Kheldorn and my previous posts on this thread when I seriously outline what PoF events do NOT have that exist in Core Tyria meta events, namely failure states, and pre-events without timers. They could've used those mechanics, a modified Silverwastes as you say, but they didn't, they used a messy, low quality meta event version and I'm pointing out that the version they used is inferior to HoT meta events.

I entered this conversation in opposition to a claim that Silverwastes was the worst area ever. As for PoF events, they're inferior in every way, all the way from structure to reward. You'll get no argument from me there. Preaching to the choir.

[Ayrilana.1396]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

There was no exploration gating at release. You needed to finish events to get your participation in order to get rewards. That's wasn't a very good system and it was good they changed it.

HP under Tarir has been gated. You had to complete octovine. Just one example as I'm too lazy to paste here more. HoT

was

heavy gated, now it isn't but only after people complained about it.

Heavy is a bit of an exaggeration but yes, it was gated more than it is now.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Rauderi.8706 said:Missing the point. Unless someone knows the "trick" to get up to the Canopy, it is locked until the night bosses.

Mastery points in PoF require mastery and mount unlocks. New players cannot finish those either.

And if those events aren't running? Locked.The event is either finished, so all those are unlocked, or the map is fresh and just finished meta. There is no way for the poi to be locked AND no event running.

Vinetooth isn't part of map completion, but it is a part of a large number of collections, and if that first Eastwatch event doesn't get done (nigh impossible to solo), then it ain't happening, and it's a several hour wait until the next opportunity.

Ever tried any of the meta achievements for PoF? Getting the Vinetooth is simple, you port to AB, you go to Eastwatch and see the state of the meta, gather people for Vinetooth and go kill it. Tried the twin kill achievement in Forged with fire? Good luck getting that with zero indicators on the state of that meta, when it starts, when it ends. Plus the first event has a timer to make things worse.

I don't know why you bring all those arguments against HoT when every single one applies to PoF, only it's worse.

HoT had some other significant problems that were smoothed in PoF.Mastery locks? Sure, but PoF does them in a logical order. I finished all of Crystal Oasis with just a leveled up raptor. I didn't need jackal to finish Highlands (barring some of the mastery points, which are plentiful). HoT required Nuhoch masteries (from the third map) for Verdant Brink (the first map) at one point, until it was updated. Even then, Axemaster is still requiring Nuhoch stealth detection.

That's impossible because getting at least one mastery in crystal desert requires Springer, there are more requirements too.

Because I should always need an overlay or external clock to tell me what's going on. :-1:

And the alternative is to not even bother with them, like the PoF meta events.

[maddoctor.2738]

@"Manasa Devi.7958" said:As for PoF events, they're inferior in every way, all the way from structure to reward. You'll get no argument from me there. Preaching to the choir.

Exactly what I'm saying, that rewards isn't the only thing that is wrong with the PoF meta events. Now we obviously disagree about Silverwastes but maybe we should leave that for another thread, maybe discussing how to "fix" the PoF meta events :)Might start one tomorrow

[maddoctor.2738]

@Kheldorn.5123 said:

There was no exploration gating at release. You needed to finish events to get your participation in order to get rewards. That's wasn't a very good system and it was good they changed it.

HP under Tarir has been gated. You had to complete octovine. Just one example as I'm too lazy to paste here more. HoT

was

heavy gated, now it isn't but only after people complained about it.

Any other gates than that single HP?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Rauderi.8706 said:Missing the point. Unless someone knows the "trick" to get up to the Canopy, it

is

locked until the night bosses.

Mastery points in PoF require mastery and mount unlocks. New players cannot finish those either.

To be fair, PoF Masteries are more accessible and more transparent, than HoT ones.

[flog.3485]

It feels like some people forgot to check the dwarven mining area in northern map ^^

[Esquilax.3491]

It was a good one time experience :/ Honestly I can't even motivate myself to run a second character through it.

[Downfall.4613]

@flog.3485 said:It feels like some people forgot to check the dwarven mining area in northern map ^^

It was a great one time "dungeon", but there is no reason to return besides gambling for ingredients for the bigger bags.