Permanent fix to Elementalist DPS in PvE

[Jski.6180]

Why not just spate pve dps from wvw/spvp dps. Then you can do all the balancing you want with out destroying other prats of the game.

[Zero.5307]

But it's not. Pve weaver is basically the onlu dps in the game, dealing 10k more dps than any other condi class

Your joking right?? lol

[Razor.6392]

Nothing more fun than seeing my shower do damage 5 times then all the meteors whiff even though I'm seeing them connect.

Excellent desisn.

[Zero.5307]

What I see being the big problems are:

1) Pretty much most pve - and alot of WvW - still favors the Elementalist staff builds due to survivability issues, which means your hitting and 'area' instead of a target. On top of which the staff is also favored for the dps and range, making the dagger, and sword kind of bad trade offs with the scepter being mildly tolerable.

2) Every other caster class can target one NPC then 'spread' that dps from that one target to multiple or has a similar effect via skills or talents, which hampers condition damage on the Elementalist. This particularly hampers the Elementalist from going single target to multi target then back to single target as fluidly as other caster can, essentialy its a dps control issues where they can't direct it as well as other casters.

3) Single target suffers because Elementalist too often has to target an area rather than a target so even the burst potential is wasted if there is only a single target, which when you factor in the casting times, cooldowns, and the survibability the ele trades for it isn't very pleasant. Some other classes burst potential is much higher and comes with much more stability in other areas. Though we can get pretty good early onset burst, it just fizzles out to quickly though its really more of a finishing combo.

4) An Elementalist 'glass cannon' really is a 'glass' build. Other classes tend to call 'glass cannon' builds that name because they put all the traits they can into dps, however their trait lines also some with built in survibability mechanics with the trait lines regardless. Where Elementalist 'glass cannon' builds for full dps really are just 'glass cannon' with no survibability mechanics and not enough dps in exchange to justify the loss of those mechanics, and if the exchange was fair people would complain that their OP creating new problems.

5) Condition removal is locked to water. Damage condition or burst is locked to Fire traits regardless. Which means you can only go:

• A> elite spec, fire for damage, waster for condition removal - limiting burst and condition damage -
• B> elite spec, fire for damage, earth for condition damage and tiny survibability - but limited burst and condition removal -
• C> elite spec, fire for damage, Air for crit burst and slight mobiliy - but limited condition damage and condition removal -
• D> elite spec, fire for damage, Arcaina for an under-powered application of each dps area with weird stuff mixed in - but poor burst dps, condition dps, and no condition removal -ps: you factor condition removal as dps too because any 'time' your down is 'time' your not doing damage.

The Elementalist was originally a class designed so you could go partially up which ever trait line you chose and fully up one trait line you wanted and weren't limited to 3 trait lines before HoT. Elementalists originally weren't necessarily supposed to go all the way up a trait line as they didn't always receive as generous trait abilities as other classes but could easily make up for it with different lower tier traits in different areas to balance their build out in area other classes couldn't. Actually going all the way up more than one trait line back then always resulted in a lopsided Elementalist build that another class could always reliably out preform.

Which means without the tempest boost to single attainments its a weird meta class, and tempest favors ele as a back end AOE and Support only. Making the Ele's meta in general the most lopsided of all the classes. Other classes get much more general benefit from going up a single trait line than an Elementalist will without the original trait lines being reworked, meaning most of the time Elementalist feel lopsided because in-fact their meta really is lopsided. The elite spec's trait lines and fire being a possible exception.

In light of all that no one should really complain about the amount of dps or support the Elementalist currently provided, as in it dose too much. Everyone should complain the the dps trade off quite isn't worth it as far as over all balance for anything but for the niche roles its currently used for. It doesn't mean that the Elementalist is broken either or not viable, it is, it just has weird hard limits of its lopsided Meta. It still a very desirable class.

I'm actually super excited for weaver, but I suspect that there is alot of reworking to be done with it so just be patient with it.

[Asurch.9352]

Ele suffers from so called "necro syndrome" where you don't really bring anything useful to the group so your only plus side is DPS. If this part isn't marginally high where the allegedly support specs called firebrand and scourge are outDPSing you, your class is pretty much dead. All power ele builds that I'm aware of on small hitbox golem are around 30-35k band right now. Sure, we have a condi build that camps FGS to do good DPS but good luck doing that on any fight that has adds. Forget that, even on Matthias your periodic #2 casts sometimes hit the ceiling for no apparent reason.

So if your point is to fix meteor in some way to get ele back in line with other classes, by no matter do that please, do something so that it does more DPS because ele is already far behind on small hitbox where all other classes compete at.

[Feanor.2358]

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Just make meteor shower work like a big lava font. Pulsing dmg overtime.

Considering reliant on rng this skill is, this would be a welcome change and easier to balance too

It would reduce rng and enemy hitbox size would not affect the dmg output. Win-win situation. AC fire is has arrows that fall from the sky and the dmg is a pulsating aoe.

Put a target cap of 10 to compensate in wvw.

Again, why do you want to remove an actual choice from the game? The dependency on hitbox size isn't something bad.

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

stop taking qT golem dps benchmarks so srs

[MyPuppy.8970]

@Zero.5307 said:What I see being the big problems are:

1) Pretty much most pve - and alot of WvW - still favors the Elementalist staff builds due to survivability issues, which means your hitting and 'area' instead of a target. On top of which the staff is also favored for the dps and range, making the dagger, and sword kind of bad trade offs with the scepter being mildly tolerable.

2) Every other caster class can target one NPC then 'spread' that dps from that one target to multiple or has a similar effect via skills or talents, which hampers condition damage on the Elementalist. This particularly hampers the Elementalist from going single target to multi target then back to single target as fluidly as other caster can, essentialy its a dps control issues where they can't direct it as well as other casters.

3) Single target suffers because Elementalist too often has to target an area rather than a target so even the burst potential is wasted if there is only a single target, which when you factor in the casting times, cooldowns, and the survibability the ele trades for it isn't very pleasant. Some other classes burst potential is much higher and comes with much more stability in other areas. Though we can get pretty good early onset burst, it just fizzles out to quickly though its really more of a finishing combo.

4) An Elementalist 'glass cannon' really is a 'glass' build. Other classes tend to call 'glass cannon' builds that name because they put all the traits they can into dps, however their trait lines also some with built in survibability mechanics with the trait lines regardless. Where Elementalist 'glass cannon' builds for full dps really are just 'glass cannon' with no survibability mechanics and not enough dps in exchange to justify the loss of those mechanics, and if the exchange was fair people would complain that their OP creating new problems.

5) Condition removal is locked to water. Damage condition or burst is locked to Fire traits regardless. Which means you can only go:

• A> elite spec, fire for damage, waster for condition removal - limiting burst and condition damage -
• B> elite spec, fire for damage, earth for condition damage and tiny survibability - but limited burst and condition removal -
• C> elite spec, fire for damage, Air for crit burst and slight mobiliy - but limited condition damage and condition removal -
• D> elite spec, fire for damage, Arcaina for an under-powered application of each dps area with weird stuff mixed in - but poor burst dps, condition dps, and no condition removal -ps: you factor condition removal as dps too because any 'time' your down is 'time' your not doing damage.

The Elementalist was originally a class designed so you could go partially up which ever trait line you chose and fully up one trait line you wanted and weren't limited to 3 trait lines before HoT. Elementalists originally weren't necessarily supposed to go all the way up a trait line as they didn't always receive as generous trait abilities as other classes but could easily make up for it with different lower tier traits in different areas to balance their build out in area other classes couldn't. Actually going all the way up more than one trait line back then always resulted in a lopsided Elementalist build that another class could always reliably out preform.

Which means without the tempest boost to single attainments its a weird meta class, and tempest favors ele as a back end AOE and Support only. Making the Ele's meta in general the most lopsided of all the classes. Other classes get much more general benefit from going up a single trait line than an Elementalist will without the original trait lines being reworked, meaning most of the time Elementalist feel lopsided because in-fact their meta really is lopsided. The elite spec's trait lines and fire being a possible exception.

In light of all that no one should really complain about the amount of dps or support the Elementalist currently provided, as in it dose too much. Everyone should complain the the dps trade off quite isn't worth it as far as over all balance for anything but for the niche roles its currently used for. It doesn't mean that the Elementalist is broken either or not viable, it is, it just has weird hard limits of its lopsided Meta. It still a very desirable class.

I'm actually super excited for weaver, but I suspect that there is alot of reworking to be done with it so just be patient with it.

That's a good analysis that i completely agree with. Fine job writing all that!

[Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582]

Why are there even different sized hitboxes in the first place?

[sokeenoppa.5384]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Why are there even different sized hitboxes in the first place?

It would feel stupid to use ground targeted skill on big Enemy. You see that Enemy is in ur Aoe but it doesent take damage coz Part of The Enemy that is in aoe isnt Part of its hitbox

[Feanor.2358]

@Heimskarl Ashfiend.9582 said:Why are there even different sized hitboxes in the first place?

Because we have vastly different sized enemies? Why the hell not? It just adds more variety in the game mechanics.

[mulzi.8273]

@Kidel.2057 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:

@Kidel.2057 said:All "meteor-like" skills can't hit the same target more than X times.

Done.

If you're talking PVE you're too late ;)

"February 22, 2017

This skill now has a 0.5-second cooldown when hitting nonplayer targets."

But it's not. Pve weaver is basically the onlu dps in the game, dealing 10k more dps than any other condi class

Good Lord! Anet, I hope you read this and make this a blocker for the next patch. how DARE you make a power build that beats, or even equals, condi. That is just not exceptable, the aoe-condi spammers are jealous and will revolt!

That being said, they make this change, they should change ALL condi Aoes to ONLY apply type of condi, to only 3 targets.

[Vova.2640]

Ill never understand why something that is only achievable with every boon/buff in the game having a 100% uptime is EVER taken seriously and should make the game be balanced around it.You literally cannot upkeep all these buffs in 99% of the content in the game.And if anything, take away the ability to upkeep all those buffs 100% of time instead of nerfing dmg on classes over and over.Staff power Eles already not viable in pvp and wvw.

[Edu.6984]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Just make meteor shower work like a big lava font. Pulsing dmg overtime.

Considering reliant on rng this skill is, this would be a welcome change and easier to balance too

It would reduce rng and enemy hitbox size would not affect the dmg output. Win-win situation. AC fire is has arrows that fall from the sky and the dmg is a pulsating aoe.

Put a target cap of 10 to compensate in wvw.

Again, why do you want to remove an actual choice from the game? The dependency on hitbox size isn't something bad.

Because the different hitbox size is a big source of unbalance with some skills like meteor shower. If you balance it to do OK dmg against players (wvw +spvp) and most pve mobs (small hitbox) then it will do insane dmg on large hitboxes. On the other hand, if they balance it to do OK dmg against large hitboxes, it will do trash dmg against players and small hitboxes.

[Feanor.2358]

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Just make meteor shower work like a big lava font. Pulsing dmg overtime.

Considering reliant on rng this skill is, this would be a welcome change and easier to balance too

It would reduce rng and enemy hitbox size would not affect the dmg output. Win-win situation. AC fire is has arrows that fall from the sky and the dmg is a pulsating aoe.

Put a target cap of 10 to compensate in wvw.

Again, why do you want to remove an actual choice from the game? The dependency on hitbox size isn't something bad.

Because the different hitbox size is a big source of unbalance with some skills like meteor shower. If you balance it to do OK dmg against players (wvw +spvp) and most pve mobs (small hitbox) then it will do insane dmg on large hitboxes.

So what if it does insane damage on large hitboxes? It can never become "the only dps" because of how much better are the condi builds against small targets, which are the predominant ones. The status quo makes ele the king of KC, and that's all. That's your big issue? That's why you want the game diversity reduced? A single raid boss?

[Edu.6984]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Just make meteor shower work like a big lava font. Pulsing dmg overtime.

Considering reliant on rng this skill is, this would be a welcome change and easier to balance too

It would reduce rng and enemy hitbox size would not affect the dmg output. Win-win situation. AC fire is has arrows that fall from the sky and the dmg is a pulsating aoe.

Put a target cap of 10 to compensate in wvw.

Again, why do you want to remove an actual choice from the game? The dependency on hitbox size isn't something bad.

Because the different hitbox size is a big source of unbalance with some skills like meteor shower. If you balance it to do OK dmg against players (wvw +spvp) and most pve mobs (small hitbox) then it will do insane dmg on large hitboxes.

So what if it does insane damage on large hitboxes? It can never become "the only dps" because of how much better are the condi builds against small targets, which are the predominant ones. The status quo makes ele the king of KC, and that's all. That's your big issue? That's why you want the game diversity reduced? A single raid boss?

You call it diversity, I call it unbalance game breaking factor.

[Feanor.2358]

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:

@Raguel.9402 said:

@xDudisx.5914 said:Just make meteor shower work like a big lava font. Pulsing dmg overtime.

Considering reliant on rng this skill is, this would be a welcome change and easier to balance too

It would reduce rng and enemy hitbox size would not affect the dmg output. Win-win situation. AC fire is has arrows that fall from the sky and the dmg is a pulsating aoe.

Put a target cap of 10 to compensate in wvw.

Again, why do you want to remove an actual choice from the game? The dependency on hitbox size isn't something bad.

Because the different hitbox size is a big source of unbalance with some skills like meteor shower. If you balance it to do OK dmg against players (wvw +spvp) and most pve mobs (small hitbox) then it will do insane dmg on large hitboxes.

So what if it does insane damage on large hitboxes? It can never become "the only dps" because of how much better are the condi builds against small targets, which are the predominant ones. The status quo makes ele the king of KC, and that's all. That's your big issue? That's why you want the game diversity reduced? A single raid boss?

You call it diversity, I call it unbalance game breaking factor.

How is it breaking the game, exactly?

[Agrippa.1693]

I think the OP does have a good idea, he only fails to mention (which is posted underneath tho) that once that nerf has hit, the devs can think of buffing and tweaking the Ele as a whole again. Which will make them viable as DPS on small AND large hitboxes and not just under less common circumstances and conditions, gamebreakingly good! Come on, let's be honest: at least 25% better than all the other professions under those conditions, is just ridiculous. And 10k (25%) difference is a perfect argument to call it gamebreaking, also because the conditions are not THAT rare, if you do a simple google search you can quite easily find already a few good examples of weavers doing insane (burst) damage in Raids, Fractals and even in WvW, cause we're all keep forgetting it's not JUST some raid bosses with large hitboxes, it's insane AoE mob damage as well. Hey, and what about world bosses ..... Anywho, and that all mainly because of 1 skill only ... So, OP has my points!

[Daedraz.1650]

I tend to agree with @Feanor.2358. I'm okay with weaver as is. The weaver benchmark does seem absurd when taken at face value, but keep in mind weaver is a ridiculously difficult spec to play well. It is easy to play 'decently' but you won't be getting any more dps than a staff tempest by playing weaver on a 'decent' level. My personal observations from 2 exp statics and pugs are as follows: aside KC, weavers rarely outdps firebrands or renegades (and pre-nerf scourge as well). Most of the time, I am seeing firebrands dominating the dps logs (scourges used to as well, but RIP now). On certain bosses like Gorseval, I'll sometimes see a weaver pull higher dps than the rest, but never by huge 'game-breaking' margins- usually 2-3K at most. What I am actually seeing most of the time are players who think they can play weaver and then proceed to spend half of the fight on the floor giving our druids strokes.