Should Fractals be more Intuitive at Lower Levels?

[Game of Bones.8975]

I'm mainly talking about the moral of teaching a person to fish vs giving them a fish.

I rarely get caught in that happy medium between "the bunch of noobs who can't get anything right" or the group of vets who do everything so I don't know if I'm contributing anything to the fight.

I just died a bunch of times completing Mai Trin's fractal a couple times with groups. Even after reading the wiki description and watching YouTube vids I still tripped all over the place trying to figure out what to do when the orbs popped up. I think I spent more time dead/rezing than actually alive on that one.

Cliffside is one of the easiest to learn as long as you can hand off the hammer to a teammate and not die.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Westenev.5289 said:T1 Fractals aren't the problem; it's an entry level instance that people need to succeed to feel confident enough to move up to teir 2 and beyond.

In that regard t3 is the real problem ... one or two people can easily carry a group through t1 and 2. Usually t4 groups are competent enough. T3 is the place to go for a horrible experience.

@Asum.4960 said:As for people not being able to learn well by text, absolutely. But the wiki and guides is just the backup for people who can't learn by doing by just playing the game (or for those who wish to prepare slightly beforehand), which is certainly already possible.

videos are also a thing

[Westenev.5289]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@Westenev.5289 said:T1 Fractals aren't the problem; it's an entry level instance that people need to succeed to feel confident enough to move up to teir 2 and beyond.

In that regard t3 is the real problem ... one or two people can easily carry a group through t1 and 2. Usually t4 groups are competent enough. T3 is the place to go for a horrible experience.

The problem with t3 is that t4 isn't much harder, and is more richly rewarded. Alternitively, t2 has similar rewards and is much less hassle. This leaves t3's in an awkward spot, where the only people willing to do them are inexperienced players who can't do t4 fractals for whatever reason.

[Cuks.8241]

@Turkeyspit.3965 said:

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:Take any random Initiate level Fractal and five players who haven't heard anything about how to defeat it and what are the chances they will be successful?

I've been more active on that scene recently and playing "follow-the-leader."

How do a group of noobs learn when the trial-and-error usually ends in error and frustration?

Intuitive? Where in this game is anything intuitive? Forget Fractals, how many times over the years have we walked into a personal story / LW story encounter and took a bit to figure out what the mechanics were, and how to win?

I'm not advocating for full on hand-holding or anything, but there is a middle ground, but I find it way too many situations ANET just expects players to already know what they should do.

No, they expect you to learn, maybe die once or twice, which is just fine. And there are very few story encounters where you need to learn a mechanic.

I always found this game quite intuitive when it comes to fight mechanics. Most deadly stuff have clear red indication. In many games first you need to stand in the stuff and figure out if its good or bad.

[Excursion.9752]

I can understand the want for this. But from my experiences so far is that people do not read or listen to most instruction. You can even have a person in group trying to constructively give good advice about an encounter and people either ignore the help or maybe they never read it to begin with. I think most people who are struggling just search for a solution online. I know its not in game but it is what it is.

[JekthAvid.1408]

Well... I recently started fractals, doing the dailies and whatnot. I'm almost to t2 fractals, and I never really struggled to beat them. Just went to lfg, put my group up and went. Usually I get other players new to fractals, but once in a while I do get people who have deigned to sacrifice their time on lowly tier one fractals. They tend to be helpful, and I appreciate it, but it becomes a "follow the leader do what he says" type deal. I understand the fractal better when I can do it myself. And yeah, it may take a few minutes longer, but now I can do the fractal regularly.

[daisyk.4523]

Awh yeah, it really does help when there's a more experienced player in the group. I don't think it's a big problem, since in my experience (pugging T1-3 Fracs in early 2019 NA) 9 times outta 10, there almost always is a leader who knows a little bit more than the other people.

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:Take any random Initiate level Fractal and five players who haven't heard anything about how to defeat it and what are the chances they will be successful?

I've been more active on that scene recently and playing "follow-the-leader."

How do a group of noobs learn when the trial-and-error usually ends in error and frustration?

For me at least, it felt like a gentle enough learning slope.

And a lotta times the trial-and-error did lead to error, but not frustration. ^_^

But that's just me personally, and the way I like to learn in this game. It was pretty fun way to learn "experiencing it by yourself" (without just watching one billion videos or memorizing what's on guides). It's easy to tell who to follow, and then eventually, you kind of just know where to go and see "Hey, so this is a cool skip" and learn stuff along the way.

But yeah, sometimes the encounter goes very, very painful if no one knows what they're doing, and if that's not your style, and you're genuinely getting frustrated, it's time to call it quits hehe.

[Daddicus.6128]

I like the idea of making it more intuitive, but there's also the argument that having to learn things is a good thing, too.

But, a feature I would really like to see is some kind of mentoring bonus. If a level 100 does T1s, it's not because he needs the loot. No, it's to help others.

Can ANet reward T4 players who do T1s with extra loot (vs. what the T1s by themselves would grant), if (say) there are three people at levels 1-30 or something like that?

If that's a good idea, how about the same thing for T2s and T3s?

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Game of Bones.8975" said:I'm mainly talking about the moral of teaching a person to fish vs giving them a fish.

I rarely get caught in that happy medium between "the bunch of noobs who can't get anything right" or the group of vets who do everything so I don't know if I'm contributing anything to the fight.

I just died a bunch of times completing Mai Trin's fractal a couple times with groups. Even after reading the wiki description and watching YouTube vids I still tripped all over the place trying to figure out what to do when the orbs popped up. I think I spent more time dead/rezing than actually alive on that one.

In the specific case of Mai Trin the intended strategy is intuitive enough, she has stacks of shielding which reduces the effectiveness of your skills against here, there is a thing that removes the shield, then you unload all damage, change phase, repeat.

In theory this means the fixated person and the person targeted for the electric field(you can tell based on the symbol above their head) that will remove the shield should stick together and if it is the damaging cannon shot the person targeted should move away from the rest of the group. This can work and sometimes you are pretty much forced into this strategy when pugging but it results in a chaotic and messy fight.

The arguably better strategy definitely isn't intuitive since it pretty much involves doing the opposite of how you should be playing the game. In this case everyone stay close together at all times on one spot while healing through all the damage with a healer. Ideally CC would also be timed to break the bar as the last shield is removed, ideally you also have enough damage to phase the fight but otherwise it is just repeating the same thing then kill adds, phase Horrik, repeat.

A common mistake phasing Horrik before clearing adds which leaves you having to deal with the adds and Mai Trin at the same time. Not necessarily wrong but it leads to the chaotic messy situation again.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

I'm with the people who don't think fractals are broken in this manner and don't want them fixed. I was there to figure them out when they were new in 2012, and I continue to enjoy figuring out new ones when they are released. Everything a person needs to know is already taught through open world PvE: event descriptions, listening to and reading NPC dialogue, looking for interact-able objects, watching the minimap for symbols, and to some extent, the achievement panel. Not every fractal (or event in the game) has event directions that are as well-written as every other event, but that's just a quality control issue. (Mai Trin could use some help, granted--there's just too much going on for new people to be able to see what they're supposed to see while they're dodging bombs every which way. But I still think that's more of a quality control issue than a systems issue.)

Put simply, if people haven't learned how to find directions by the time they start fractaling, then the fact that fractals mode itself offers no further explanation is probably a good thing because it will force people to start recognizing that those are the basic places to find information. That is how learning works: the person doing the learning must at some point have nowhere to turn but to him- or herself (or the team, in this case). Fractals aren't the instructions area for PvE skills (those are the leveling zones), and they're not the drill and practice areas (level 80 zones). Fractals are end-game content. They're the test.

[Daddicus.6128]

Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

[Khisanth.2948]

@"Daddicus.6128" said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

The majority of fractals are exactly the same at high and low levels. Just different health and damage ...

If you make lower easier so it can be done without knowing anything then all you have done is to delay the problem. We can leave that sort of thing to politicians.

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

@"Daddicus.6128" said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

Do you mean, me personally? Because it isn't affecting my gameplay directly--in your opinion--I'm not allowed to weigh in? Would you like me to submit my fractal trainer's resume? Account for the times I spend in T1 fractals?

Yeah...no. The fact that an experienced player has had the experience being discussed is all the more qualifications a person needs.

Essentially, you're saying that people who have gone through the process of learning fractals shouldn't share an opinion about the process of learning fractals because only people who have minimal or no experience can truly understand the topic at hand. That doesn't make any sense. Or, perhaps you are saying that because I myself am not biased by being personally affected by the outcome of the request, my opinion is of less value to the conversation than someone who will either suffer or prosper as a result. :/

Sounds to me like you just don't want to hear opinions that disagree with yours.

[Nephalem.8921]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

The majority of fractals are exactly the same at high and low levels. Just different health and damage ...

If you make lower easier so it can be done without knowing anything then all you have done is to delay the problem. We can leave that sort of thing to politicians.

Not really. A lot of fractals scale. Weapon test has additional golems and retal mechanics. mai trin loses less stacks in electric fields and has special mobs spawn in higher levels.SO orb is way easier. most mechanics are only deadly in t4 which is a reason why so many t3/4 groups fail there. never had to do them in lower levels.

[Khisanth.2948]

@Nephalem.8921 said:

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

The majority of fractals are exactly the same at high and low levels. Just different health and damage ...

If you make lower easier so it can be done without knowing anything then all you have done is to delay the problem. We can leave that sort of thing to politicians.

Not really. A lot of fractals scale. Weapon test has additional golems and retal mechanics. mai trin loses less stacks in electric fields and has special mobs spawn in higher levels.SO orb is way easier. most mechanics are only deadly in t4 which is a reason why so many t3/4 groups fail there. never had to do them in lower levels.

So you think more people arriving at t4 and still failing is a good idea?

[Daddicus.6128]

@Khisanth.2948 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

The majority of fractals are exactly the same at high and low levels. Just different health and damage ...

If you make lower easier so it can be done without knowing anything then all you have done is to delay the problem. We can leave that sort of thing to politicians.

I can't think of a single fractal that's the same at T4 vs T1.

And that's not what OP is asking for, nor what I said. We want it more explanatory, as a tutorial (the OP's word). Not easier.

[Daddicus.6128]

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@"Daddicus.6128" said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

Do you mean,

me personally

? Because it isn't affecting

my

gameplay directly--in your opinion--I'm not allowed to weigh in? Would you like me to submit my fractal trainer's resume? Account for the times I spend in T1 fractals?

Yeah...no. The fact that an experienced player has had the experience being discussed is all the more qualifications a person needs.

Essentially, you're saying that people who have gone through the process of learning fractals shouldn't share an opinion about the process of learning fractals because only people who have minimal or no experience can truly understand the topic at hand. That doesn't make any sense. Or, perhaps you are saying that because I myself am not biased by being personally affected by the outcome of the request, my opinion is of less value to the conversation than someone who will either suffer or prosper as a result. :/

Sounds to me like you just don't want to hear opinions that disagree with yours.

Not what I said. Not at all.

I asked how making tutorial-like changes to low-level fractals does anything to a high-level player. If it does nothing, then how can you say "it's not broken"?

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

Do you mean,

me personally

? Because it isn't affecting

my

gameplay directly--in your opinion--I'm not allowed to weigh in? Would you like me to submit my fractal trainer's resume? Account for the times I spend in T1 fractals?

Yeah...no. The fact that an experienced player has had the experience being discussed is all the more qualifications a person needs.

Essentially, you're saying that people who have gone through the process of learning fractals shouldn't share an opinion about the process of learning fractals because only people who have minimal or no experience can truly understand the topic at hand. That doesn't make any sense. Or, perhaps you are saying that because I myself am not biased by being personally affected by the outcome of the request, my opinion is of less value to the conversation than someone who will either suffer or prosper as a result. :/

Sounds to me like you just don't want to hear opinions that disagree with yours.

Not what I said. Not at all.

I asked how making tutorial-like changes to low-level fractals does anything to a high-level player. If it does nothing, then how can you say "it's not broken"?

Because I went through the process, and it functioned just fine.

[Daddicus.6128]

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

Do you mean,

me personally

? Because it isn't affecting

my

gameplay directly--in your opinion--I'm not allowed to weigh in? Would you like me to submit my fractal trainer's resume? Account for the times I spend in T1 fractals?

Yeah...no. The fact that an experienced player has had the experience being discussed is all the more qualifications a person needs.

Essentially, you're saying that people who have gone through the process of learning fractals shouldn't share an opinion about the process of learning fractals because only people who have minimal or no experience can truly understand the topic at hand. That doesn't make any sense. Or, perhaps you are saying that because I myself am not biased by being personally affected by the outcome of the request, my opinion is of less value to the conversation than someone who will either suffer or prosper as a result. :/

Sounds to me like you just don't want to hear opinions that disagree with yours.

Not what I said. Not at all.

I asked how making tutorial-like changes to low-level fractals does anything to a high-level player. If it does nothing, then how can you say "it's not broken"?

Because I went through the process, and it functioned just fine.

Nice dodge, but you didn't answer the question. How does it affect you?

[Bridget Morrigan.1752]

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:

@Bridget Morrigan.1752 said:

@Daddicus.6128 said:Question for all the experts: how does changing low-level fractals do ANYTHING to you?

If you can't answer that, then any answer that "it isn't broken" should be an answer you refrain from giving.

Do you mean,

me personally

? Because it isn't affecting

my

gameplay directly--in your opinion--I'm not allowed to weigh in? Would you like me to submit my fractal trainer's resume? Account for the times I spend in T1 fractals?

Yeah...no. The fact that an experienced player has had the experience being discussed is all the more qualifications a person needs.

Essentially, you're saying that people who have gone through the process of learning fractals shouldn't share an opinion about the process of learning fractals because only people who have minimal or no experience can truly understand the topic at hand. That doesn't make any sense. Or, perhaps you are saying that because I myself am not biased by being personally affected by the outcome of the request, my opinion is of less value to the conversation than someone who will either suffer or prosper as a result. :/

Sounds to me like you just don't want to hear opinions that disagree with yours.

Not what I said. Not at all.

I asked how making tutorial-like changes to low-level fractals does anything to a high-level player. If it does nothing, then how can you say "it's not broken"?

Because I went through the process, and it functioned just fine.

Nice dodge, but you didn't answer the question. How does it affect you?

Are you just not paying attention? I'll spell it out: You are wrong to claim that "changing low-level fractals [must] do ANYTHING" to someone before they can participate in this discussion. Stop gatekeeping because you don't like what people have to say. Again, the fact that an experienced player has had the experience being discussed is all the more qualifications a person needs. Direct observation, yo.

You don't need to say word for word that you don't want to hear opinions that differ from your own when you're literally telling people to stop giving answers you don't like, based on a criteria that you just made up that has self-interest as its primary basis. It's pretty obvious.

In case you're still not getting it: I reject your question about the effects on an "expert" because it's biased and irrelevant.

I can answer your question about how I can say "it's not broken" because I did the thing, and lo! Not broken.

[Daddicus.6128]

The question has great bearing: it determines standing.