I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Ceit.7619" said:

Like I said in the first place, your entire message completely passes the buck. The developers don't need, and shouldn't be expected to balance their game effectively. Players should just play classes that are meta, or create a social network of people who don't mind bringing along classes that need to be carried through the content.

Of course it passes the buck ... who has the control on the game design? That's like saying I'm passing the buck for driving the bus to the busdriver. The fact is plain: the threshold for succeeding in endgame content is low, so players can play how they want and succeed. There is no NEED for some 'competitive edge' to do that.

The developers are the bus drivers, we are the passengers. Your arguments are like saying "if the bus is going too slow, blame the passengers who got on that bus, they should have known it was slow before they tried to get to work on time with that driver."

I will ask again, what cogent philosophy exists that says one class should just be bad at everything? The game is designed around necromancers being bad?

There isn't one and I will say again, I'm not against necros getting improvements.

This is strange considering how often I see you crop up to defend the status quo of necros being bad at things. If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion, you're just trying to silence people who want positive change in their preferred profession.

What exactly do you think their philosophy is? All you do is state what you think it

isn't

.

This is not true at all: I've already said what Anet's philosophy is many times: players can play how they want and succeed ... and frankly, that's exactly how the game works if you ally and team with people that think the same. If you don't, then that's on you, not Anet, to fix.

This is not at all what I've come to believe their core game philosophy to be. If I were to put my finger on it, I would say it would be accessibility and a friendly environment. The more balanced the playing field, the more open and accepting people are of everyone which creates a more positive environment. Anet loves that their player base is often one of the most friendly, helpful bases by comparison to other MMO's who often possess a more toxic environment. Large potential discrepancies like these leave a large window for toxicity to grow from. Is it possible to find more casual groups to do stuff with? Of course it is. Nobody has made the point counter to that. Going to this point over and over again is just distracting from a conversation.

[Obtena.7952]

@"Ceit.7619" said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all and I won't repeat continually just for you to continually ignore it to make an argument with me. If it's not clear to you what my argument is, you just aren't trying hard enough or you aren't capable. I'm not going to defend my position with someone that can't even be bothered to understand it in the first place. Nothing I have ever said or believe resembles that point, EVER. I'm not going to get wrapped up in a discussion where you attempt to make me appear that I don't want improvements for the class.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@"Ceit.7619" said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

[Ryou.2398]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

Exactly, I have tried to give this person the benefit of a doubt and checked their history and it is literally the same thing except when others blindly praise anything that is not negative about the game.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

Well, if you're going to tell me what my arguments are even though I've clarified them over and over again, you might as well just send me a DM for what my next post should be too ... because clearly you know better my own thoughts then I do. Maybe you have been letting people tell you how to play too long ... you must think telling me how I think will work too.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

Well, if you're going to tell me what my arguments are, you might as well just send me a DM for what my next post should be too ... because clearly you know better my own thoughts then I do.

You have been quite vocal about what your arguments are, no mind reading or puppetry required. People can state your points in different ways when they listen to them. I realize listening to what other people are trying to say is a little beyond the scope of your habits, but we're not all the same.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

Well, if you're going to tell me what my arguments are, you might as well just send me a DM for what my next post should be too ... because clearly you know better my own thoughts then I do.

You have been quite vocal about what your arguments are, no mind reading or puppetry required.

Then you shouldn't have a problem following. If you're just going to tell me what I'm thinking and what my argument is despite what I'm posting here, there isn't much point in me being part of that discussion.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

Nercos do not need a DPS boost because players make bad choices in the game. There isn't anything hiding behind that statement.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

Well, if you're going to tell me what my arguments are, you might as well just send me a DM for what my next post should be too ... because clearly you know better my own thoughts then I do.

You have been quite vocal about what your arguments are, no mind reading or puppetry required.

Then you shouldn't have a problem following. If you're just going to tell me what I'm thinking and what my argument is despite what I'm posting here, there isn't much point in me being part of that discussion.

I agree, there is no point in you being part of this discussion, which actually is my original point. You are destruction to conversation, rather than being constructive. Would you prefer I only pull exact quotes? From someone who continually tries to claim that not only do you know what Anet's exact game philosophy is, but what anyone who thinks about it will come to the conclusion of is? You can mind-read entire swaths of the player population, but if someone re-phrases your comments, it is somehow putting words in your mouth you didn't say? Hilarious.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:If your entire point is "Yeah, Necromancers are bad, but just find people who are fine with that." I'm not sure what your comments are adding to the discussion,

It's a good thing that's never been my argument at all.

No, your argument is it doesn't matter if necromancers are bad compared to other classes, because having competitive ability in roles is irrelevant if you play with people who don't care. But good job evading everything except a 'If' statement and acting like that is all there is to respond to. Like I said before, Gaslighting at it's core.

Well, if you're going to tell me what my arguments are, you might as well just send me a DM for what my next post should be too ... because clearly you know better my own thoughts then I do.

You have been quite vocal about what your arguments are, no mind reading or puppetry required.

Then you shouldn't have a problem following. If you're just going to tell me what I'm thinking and what my argument is despite what I'm posting here, there isn't much point in me being part of that discussion.

I agree, there is no point in you being part of this discussion, which actually is my original point.Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because all of you have a contrived argument based on inability to get endgame teaming based on the idea that the DPS difference is wrong. How did you come to that conclusion? That CAN'T be a true statement ... because people team with necros and succeed all the time, according to the play how you want philosophy of the game.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

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@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

Nercos do not need a DPS boost because players make bad choices in the game. There isn't anything hiding behind that statement.

But you said anything to hide, this is not just about necros but your constant trolling, attempt to discredit, or manipulation to players who have anything constructive to state about balance or anything negative about the game as a whole.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

Nercos do not need a DPS boost because players make bad choices in the game. There isn't anything hiding behind that statement.

But you said anything to hide, this is not just about necros but your constant trolling, attempt to discredit, or manipulation to players who have anything constructive to state about balance or anything negative about the game as a whole.

I have lots of constructive things to say about the state of balance. I love the fact that I don't have to worry about crunching numbers and perfecting rotations to be successful. I love that I can play builds and classes I want to play in the endgame ... and it was as simple as finding and teaming with people that think the exact same way I do. I love the fact that Anet enables us to do this by having a low threshold for success by considering DPS differences on the content side vs. the class side. That was a really smart move if you want my opinion.

[Ceit.7619]

@"Obtena.7952" said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

If you would recall, or scroll back up to witness, I never stated the dps was an explicit issue. The issue is that necromancer as a class has NO clearly defined role or place where they can be effective in relation to their peer professions. The reason people focus on necromancer dps being bad is because it is the only role necromancer can try to take in a realistic environment. Scourge healer is right next to my Tempest Healer, completely undesirable and ineffective in end-game content. Necromancer as a tank is not viable due to tanking in this game being about full mitigation with active skills over value mitigation via hp or defensive functions. Necromancers have no support to speak of, as they can provide no party buffs in any meaningful way (Barrier, I place in the healing category given that it scales off HP, and is really only for damage sponging or allowing HoT's to tick due to a lack of burst potential). The only role left is a damage dealing role, which they can fill in only a sub-par manner.

Why do I think the dps difference exists? Could be many things. Developer oversight is a very real possibility, as Anet seems to have certain classes they focus more on (Guardian, Mesmer) and other classes they tend to ignore more (Necro, Engi). I don't know what the balance teams structure is like, and the fun bit is NEITHER DO YOU. You can only assume it is like this for a reason, but how about we flip that on it's head for a moment.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

If you aren't against Necro getting a DPS boost, why do you magically end up on every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS? You add this strange little caveat to it, but I don't see anyone arguing that it's impossible for necros to complete content. Most people don't have time to find and form a community of like-minded people who are willing to spit in the face of all logic and numbers and take whoever with whatever. Taking a discussion that is about comparing statistics and turning it into a complaint about community-based ideals is derailing the entire point.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

If you aren't against Necro getting a DPS boost, why do you magically end up on every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS?

Because every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS is doing so because of endgame team difficulties. That's not a necro DPS problem ... it CAN'T be because I don't have that problem and lots of other people don't have that problem. So why are people that CAN play necro different from people that CAN'T ... EVEN though we play the same class, maybe the same build and gear, etc ? It's NOT a class issue, it's not a game mechanics issue. ... it's a player issue, it's about how people make choices.

I'm not (and never have) had a problem with Anet buffing Necro DPS. DPS changes also never affected my endgame teaming ability ... because if you play how you want and team with people that also respect that ... it doesn't matter.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

Nercos do not need a DPS boost because players make bad choices in the game. There isn't anything hiding behind that statement.

But you said anything to hide, this is not just about necros but your constant trolling, attempt to discredit, or manipulation to players who have anything constructive to state about balance or anything negative about the game as a whole.

I have lots of constructive things to say about the state of balance. I love the fact that I don't have to worry about crunching numbers and perfecting rotations to be successful. I love that I can play builds and classes I want to play in the endgame ... and it was as simple as finding and teaming with people that think the exact same way I do. I love the fact that Anet enables us to do this by having a low threshold for success by considering DPS differences on the content side vs. the class side. That was a really smart move if you want my opinion.

Like this has anything to do with the balance issues, you keep going on how you can find a guilt that does not crunch numbers which you may be able to find in any mmo. Your just avoiding the points as you do best, nice editing btw.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

If you aren't against Necro getting a DPS boost, why do you magically end up on every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS?

Because every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS is doing so because of endgame team difficulties. That's not a necro DPS problem ... it CAN'T be because I don't have that problem and lots of other people don't have that problem. So why are people that CAN play necro different from people that CAN'T ... EVEN though we play the same class, maybe the same build and gear, etc ? It's NOT a class issue, it's not a game mechanics issue. ... it's a player issue, it's about how people make choices.

I'm not (and never have) had a problem with Anet buffing Necro DPS. DPS changes also never affected my endgame teaming ability ... because if you play how you want and team with people that also respect that ... it doesn't matter.

So your problem is... a semantics problem? Because you have the benefit of time and access to enough people to help pull you through endgame content regularly (or as regularly as you want), examining the statistics of performance is irrelevant? Nobody is even talking about whether necromancers CAN do the content. But the state of professions in relation to each other effects how agreeable the community is toward one another. If raising the dps floor of underperforming classes makes it so MORE people get the kind of enjoyment you are already privileged to enjoy, then that means more people are enjoying the game and their class of choice.

There is a difference between whether there is a game mechanics or balance issue, and whether that issue EFFECTS you. It doesn't effect you. Great for you! It effects other people. Maybe let those people air out their concerns freely without detracting needlessly with no true goal other than disliking the way it is presented. If PUG groups improve because of a raised floor, your carefree guild wont change at all, but more people will be able to play in a less aggressive environment. Why fight against that, just because it isn't a problem YOU experience?

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

Nercos do not need a DPS boost because players make bad choices in the game. There isn't anything hiding behind that statement.

But you said anything to hide, this is not just about necros but your constant trolling, attempt to discredit, or manipulation to players who have anything constructive to state about balance or anything negative about the game as a whole.

I have lots of constructive things to say about the state of balance. I love the fact that I don't have to worry about crunching numbers and perfecting rotations to be successful. I love that I can play builds and classes I want to play in the endgame ... and it was as simple as finding and teaming with people that think the exact same way I do. I love the fact that Anet enables us to do this by having a low threshold for success by considering DPS differences on the content side vs. the class side. That was a really smart move if you want my opinion.

Like this has anything to do with the balance issues, you keep going on how you can find a guilt that does not crunch numbers which you may be able to find in any mmo. Your just avoiding the points as you do best, nice editing btw.

Hold on ... you said I didn't have anything constructive to say about the state of balance; way to change the goal posts buddy. I actually have lots of praise to the current state of balance because of what it allows me to do that other games don't.

You see, what you view as issues because you don't want to make choices, I simply see as consequences of the things that make this attractive to play because I do make the choices you avoid.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

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@Obtena.7952 said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

If you aren't against Necro getting a DPS boost, why do you magically end up on every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS?

Because every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS is doing so because of endgame team difficulties. That's not a necro DPS problem ... it CAN'T be because I don't have that problem and lots of other people don't have that problem. So why are people that CAN play necro different from people that CAN'T ... EVEN though we play the same class, maybe the same build and gear, etc ? It's NOT a class issue, it's not a game mechanics issue. ... it's a player issue, it's about how people make choices.

I'm not (and never have) had a problem with Anet buffing Necro DPS. DPS changes also never affected my endgame teaming ability ... because if you play how you want and team with people that also respect that ... it doesn't matter.

So your problem is... a semantics problem?

So you don't think the reason behind the request for more DPS is relevant? I'm going to argue that it's even MORE important than the request for DPS itself. Besides, a completely different discussion here is if more DPS is the answer to endgame teaming ... even you agree to some degree it's not. So let's just say that there are at least two problems with the reasoning here.

I mean, if it's not relevant, why do you guys appeal so hard to push for more DPS on such a faulty reason to being with? I have a problem with semantics? I don't think so. I have a problem with people asking Anet to remove their ability to choose so others can tell them how to play. That doesn't JUST affect them. It affects everyone.

[Ceit.7619]

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@Obtena.7952 said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

If you aren't against Necro getting a DPS boost, why do you magically end up on every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS?

Because every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS is doing so because of endgame team difficulties. That's not a necro DPS problem ... it CAN'T be because I don't have that problem and lots of other people don't have that problem. So why are people that CAN play necro different from people that CAN'T ... EVEN though we play the same class, maybe the same build and gear, etc ? It's NOT a class issue, it's not a game mechanics issue. ... it's a player issue, it's about how people make choices.

I'm not (and never have) had a problem with Anet buffing Necro DPS. DPS changes also never affected my endgame teaming ability ... because if you play how you want and team with people that also respect that ... it doesn't matter.

So your problem is... a semantics problem?

So you don't think the reason behind the request for more DPS is relevant? I'm going to argue that it's even MORE important than the request for DPS itself. Besides, a completely different discussion here is if more DPS is the answer to endgame teaming ... even you agree to some degree it's not. So let's just say that there are at least two problems with the reasoning here.

I mean, if it's not relevant, why do you guys appeal so hard to push for more DPS on such a faulty reason to being with? I have a problem with semantics? I don't think so. I have a problem with people asking Anet to remove their ability to choose so others can tell them how to play. That doesn't JUST affect them. It affects everyone.

Necromancers having lower end, but somewhat competitive dps would in no way effect your ability to choose who or how to play. I do not see why you keep trying to tie these two completely unrelated things together as if one is connected to the other. Maybe you want to play a Magi Scourge Healer. My elementalist is setup as a magi healing tempest. Is Magi Healing Tempest meta? No. Is it even wanted anywhere? No. Did it stop me from making it? No. If they made Tempest healing more desirable, would it change my decisions here? No.

Now replace undesirable tempest healer with Necro dps, and it is all the same. Is DPS the one shot solution for necromancer as a class? No, it's a solution to improve their public environment of accessibility at no expense to anything else. That is the topic of the thread, so that is what they are talking about. Having more DPS wouldn't remove anyones ability to choose anything, it would give them MORE choices. Elementalist has meta builds, I choose a non-meta build. Your fear is 100% unfounded, but is definitely derailing the conversation.

[Ceit.7619]

@Ryou.2398 said:

Like this has anything to do with the balance issues, you keep going on how you can find a guilt that does not crunch numbers which you may be able to find in any mmo. Your just avoiding the points as you do best, nice editing btw.

Rofl, I just scrolled up some and realized that he edited a one sentence reply into a paragraph after I had already replied to it. Class right there.