I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Agrippa.1693]

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@avey.4201 said:give up about10k of your base health, and we'll talk, risk/reward.Let me just laugh a bit in my warrior.

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It's sad that we lost GW2Raidar. IT had way more accurate data than any "benchmark"

edit: and it showed a much much different picture than the "benchmarks", especially for the builds on top.True, it showed a different picture than the benchmarsk, but as far as i can remember from when it was still up, it still quite supported OPs point. The actual breakdown of classes in real raid situations looked a bit different than the theoretical benchmarks that's true,, but necros were

still

near the bottom. Well, apart from that short time where you could abuse the kitten out of epi bouncing on few selected fights, but even then those results were visible only on 90/99% ranges, because average pugs weren't really able to utilize those strats all that well.

I did give you a thumbs up, because you at least try to break common tongue by looking at real numbers, but it's actually even worse than what you describe. Reapers in the mediocre spectrum (50th percentile) were even further behind mediocre Dragon Hunters (for example) than what these top benchmarks show now. In percentages of course. Like I said, it sometimes goes up to 60% behind even. And for a DPS role, that's just pathetic.And let me repeat, cause some people find it really hard to read, this is within the mediocre raiding spectrum. Not the speedclearers, TOP benchmarkers, etc. (they will min-max the kitten out of the Reaper so they will only be 30% behind).

EDIT: And let me add, it's probably even worse now, cause GW2Raidar went down before all the buffs to the other classes!!!!

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.But pretty much ALL other classes are as well, people just tend to forget that there's also something like Marauder gear out there, and you'll still outdps a Necro!!!Hell, you can literally not die with a Marauder Daredevil with Invigorating Precision and still easily outdps a Berserker Reaper.Or any Marauder Warrior, for that matter, you could even go in Tactics, still outdps a Necro and be more of use to other players (while being extremely tanky as well!).Don't even mention a Marauder Dragonhunter which will laugh at the dps of a Reaper ...These days, I wouldnt even surprise if a Marauder Scrapper can outdps a Reaper. And they are literally the embodiment of: facetanking everything!!!

EDIT: I really would like to add: YES, a Necro can be very tanky in soaking up damage, but the trade-off is imminent: it is then officially worthless in the role it has! No other class has that as extremely the Necro has that. Also a very important note: GW2 doesnt have a

real classic

tank role where it's good to have one

tank

to soak up extreme amounts of damage, and really has to build as such, in order so that other players can go glassy. It's not designed like that. ANd even then, the Necro is not even the right choice to go for! .... Which says enough!

Yes, and once you factor for gear, builds and everything you can do: you have left pretty much 70% of the entire player base behind.

Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

And this is where you're wrong, the Reaper is NOT

just

10% behind in real raid scenarios, not under speedclearers and not even under mediocre players. Even in best raid scenarios for the Reaper, they're at least 20% behind, and in worst case scenarios even up to

60%

!!! I've showed you the numbers before with high enough 'n' to make it conclusive (when Raidar was still online), but you still hold on to your stigma ... just like almost everyone else does!!!

ah, but we are arguing about necro not hitting benchmerk as main argument now don't we? At least that is the premise of topic creator. Also you did not specify where you saw Marauder gear difference. You simply said Marauder gear on dps XYZ will outclass necro by a lot, which is plain false (if you knew about the exact damage loss from berserker to marauder). It MIGHT outclass a necro on berserker gear on certain bosses, IF other benefits affect the outcome in favor of the other class. On a similar benchmark situation though, it won't, at least not to the extent you were pretending it would.

Oh and I remember the discussion going a bit differently, mainly you not understanding bosses since you don't raid (or have very limited raiding experience at best, at least back then), me having to explain WHY a certain boss favors a class, then eventually realizing that the average necro was behind was far less unless cherry picking bosses.

Small hint again: everything is outclasses by Mirage on Twins, that's not necro only.

Yes, necro is outclasses by DIFFERENT classes on different bosses in different amounts. Not always the same class. That makes a huge difference. Just like necro outclassed other classes on anything where epi bounce was possible, until it got nerfed. Yes, necro has no 1 trick pony skill like other classes to make it a mandatory pick on bosses. On other bosses where those gimmicks do not kick in, Reaper will lose just as much or little as any other class to benchmark, unless you'd care to explain why they are more adversely affected (aka more difficult rotation, special condition, etc).

[Agrippa.1693]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.But pretty much ALL other classes are as well, people just tend to forget that there's also something like Marauder gear out there, and you'll still outdps a Necro!!!Hell, you can literally not die with a Marauder Daredevil with Invigorating Precision and still easily outdps a Berserker Reaper.Or any Marauder Warrior, for that matter, you could even go in Tactics, still outdps a Necro and be more of use to other players (while being extremely tanky as well!).Don't even mention a Marauder Dragonhunter which will laugh at the dps of a Reaper ...These days, I wouldnt even surprise if a Marauder Scrapper can outdps a Reaper. And they are literally the embodiment of: facetanking everything!!!

EDIT: I really would like to add: YES, a Necro can be very tanky in soaking up damage, but the trade-off is imminent: it is then officially worthless in the role it has! No other class has that as extremely the Necro has that. Also a very important note: GW2 doesnt have a

real classic

tank role where it's good to have one

tank

to soak up extreme amounts of damage, and really has to build as such, in order so that other players can go glassy. It's not designed like that. ANd even then, the Necro is not even the right choice to go for! .... Which says enough!

Yes, and once you factor for gear, builds and everything you can do: you have left pretty much 70% of the entire player base behind.

Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

And this is where you're wrong, the Reaper is NOT

just

10% behind in real raid scenarios, not under speedclearers and not even under mediocre players. Even in best raid scenarios for the Reaper, they're at least 20% behind, and in worst case scenarios even up to

60%

!!! I've showed you the numbers before with high enough 'n' to make it conclusive (when Raidar was still online), but you still hold on to your stigma ... just like almost everyone else does!!!

ah, but we are arguing about necro not hitting benchmerk as main argument now don't we? At least that is the premise of topic creator. Also you did not specify where you saw Marauder gear difference. You simply said Marauder gear on dps XYZ will outclass necro by a lot, which is plain false (if you knew about the exact damage loss from berserker to marauder). It MIGHT outclass a necro on berserker gear on certain bosses, IF other benefits affect the outcome in favor of the other class. On a similar benchmark situation though, it won't, at least not to the extent you were pretending it would.

Oh and I remember the discussion going a bit differently, mainly you not understanding bosses since you don't raid (or have very limited raiding experience at best, at least back then)Exactly, and this is the whole point.

You

remember it incorrectly. Actually, it's even the opposite. Look it up, I told you right there: I just haven't raided for ages

since

then! But before that ... (and again, this is nothing new, cause I told you before) I

used to be

in that 90th/99th percentile with pretty much ALL classes (hardly ever played Necro, cause they're useless, as every speedclearer knows (except for epi bounce, back then)).But this is how minds work, even if something is the exact opposite, if

you

planted that seed in your own mind, it will stick, even if evidence shows you're completely wrong, it WILL stick, like a broken record!!! Just like your false premises about Necro's.

Anyway, back to the discussion at hand: benchmarks, real raid scenarios, veterans, casuals etc. it doesn't matter. It's 100% proven that the Necro is FAR behind (up 60%) all other classes, especially now, if it comes to DPS in the PvE endgame. And they just don't deserve to be there! It's really NOT rocket science!

Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now that is something to discuss ...

[Cyninja.2954]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Now one could argue IF balance should be done around the top 10%, or the entire player base. Just stop this bs that necro isn't tanky. It's tanky af for most players.But pretty much ALL other classes are as well, people just tend to forget that there's also something like Marauder gear out there, and you'll still outdps a Necro!!!Hell, you can literally not die with a Marauder Daredevil with Invigorating Precision and still easily outdps a Berserker Reaper.Or any Marauder Warrior, for that matter, you could even go in Tactics, still outdps a Necro and be more of use to other players (while being extremely tanky as well!).Don't even mention a Marauder Dragonhunter which will laugh at the dps of a Reaper ...These days, I wouldnt even surprise if a Marauder Scrapper can outdps a Reaper. And they are literally the embodiment of: facetanking everything!!!

EDIT: I really would like to add: YES, a Necro can be very tanky in soaking up damage, but the trade-off is imminent: it is then officially worthless in the role it has! No other class has that as extremely the Necro has that. Also a very important note: GW2 doesnt have a

real classic

tank role where it's good to have one

tank

to soak up extreme amounts of damage, and really has to build as such, in order so that other players can go glassy. It's not designed like that. ANd even then, the Necro is not even the right choice to go for! .... Which says enough!

Yes, and once you factor for gear, builds and everything you can do: you have left pretty much 70% of the entire player base behind.

Marauder is approximately a 10-12% dps loss versus berserker (without factoring for over capping crit chance on Maurauder). So I'm not seeing how a Marauder Dragonhunter leaves a Power Reaper behind. They are pretty close in the damage they can put out if the DH is on Maurauder. Unless you are assuming Virtues, which requires permanent retaliation to achieve its 38k benchmark, which should be obvious is only available on maybe 2-3 raid bosses and if the entire squad is built around this setup.

The same goes for Warrior. Drop the benchmark by 10%, and you are very close to the Power Reaper Benchmark.

Really not sure where you are getting your numbers from here. Given the dps loss on Marauder gear and current benchmarks, I'd say taking Marauder gear on other classes to make them as tanky as necro for day to day stuff works perfectly balance wise.

And this is where you're wrong, the Reaper is NOT

just

10% behind in real raid scenarios, not under speedclearers and not even under mediocre players. Even in best raid scenarios for the Reaper, they're at least 20% behind, and in worst case scenarios even up to

60%

!!! I've showed you the numbers before with high enough 'n' to make it conclusive (when Raidar was still online), but you still hold on to your stigma ... just like almost everyone else does!!!

ah, but we are arguing about necro not hitting benchmerk as main argument now don't we? At least that is the premise of topic creator. Also you did not specify where you saw Marauder gear difference. You simply said Marauder gear on dps XYZ will outclass necro by a lot, which is plain false (if you knew about the exact damage loss from berserker to marauder). It MIGHT outclass a necro on berserker gear on certain bosses, IF other benefits affect the outcome in favor of the other class. On a similar benchmark situation though, it won't, at least not to the extent you were pretending it would.

Oh and I remember the discussion going a bit differently, mainly you not understanding bosses since you don't raid (or have very limited raiding experience at best, at least back then)Exactly, and this is the whole point.

You

remember it incorrectly. Actually, it's even the opposite. Look it up, I told you right there: I just haven't raided for ages

since

then! But before that ... (and again, this is nothing new, cause I told you before) I

used to be

in that 90th/99th percentile with pretty much ALL classes (hardly ever played Necro, cause they're useless, as every speedclearer knows (except for epi bounce, back then)).But this is how minds work, even if something is the exact opposite, if

you

planted that seed in your own mind, it will stick, even if evidence shows you're completely wrong, it WILL stick, like a broken record!!! Just like your false premises about Necro's.

Right. To lazy to look up the old thread. There you at least admitted to having little raid experience. Yeah you are right, that's how minds work.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Anyway, back to the discussion at hand: benchmarks, real raid scenarios, veterans, casuals etc. it doesn't matter. It's 100% proven that the Necro is FAR behind (up 60%) all other classes, especially now, if it comes to DPS in the PvE endgame. And they just don't deserve to be there! It's really NOT rocket science!

No they don't. Each class deserves a spot at the table. Depends on the arguments used. I'm simply opposed to the arguments used here.

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now that is something to discuss ...

and/or they have metrics which make them happy on this classes participation. No changes needed.

[Jimbru.6014]

I dunno. Maybe some people just need to find something besides DPS numbers (or truck size) to measure their self-worth. I play heal scourge for my guild's strike team; my measure of success is simply keeping my team alive to win the fight. YMMV.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Wait so is unscathed contender really a thing in most fights?

[Obtena.7952]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now that is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

[Shaogin.2679]

I swear it's like some of the people commenting on this don't even raid. It is irrelevant if a player can or cannot hit the max benchmark. The benchmarks simply show the max potential of a class. The higher the max potential of your class, the more you can mess up and still pull great dps. Like I mentioned earlier, I played power chrono and could easily out dps my power reaper without even putting the time in to properly get the rotation down. People here wanna compare a professional's power reaper dps to a noob's soulbeast dps and say it is even. Fact is, if you were to take a player that is equally skilled on all classes, their dps would be significantly higher on anything other than a Necromancer. I say this as a raider that plays Necromancer, Guardian, Ranger, Engineer, Revenant, and Mesmer.

I would even be ok with this if it weren't for the fact that the Necromancer brings little to no group utility in the dps builds, especially when compared to the other classes with significantly higher dps and utility. Also, anyone that keeps bring up Necromancers being tanky, does not actually raid with a Necromancer. In reality, the Necromancer is no more tanky than these other dps builds. The Necromancer's shroud is a key part of their dps. I cannot stress this enough. If a Necromancer uses their Life Force to tank some damage, their dps will suffer and possibly their rotation as well. So if you want to talk about how "tanky" Necromancers are, then let's go ahead and assume their dps is well below the benchmark.

As for Scourge Healing, it is fun but completely unnecessary and a detriment to your team. Necromancers have a reputation for being a good fit in unorganized pugs. This is because of things like a power reaper being able to maintain its own might and fury and Scourges being able to revive allies. But what happens when you are now in a group that can maintain buffs on the whole group, and the players aren't noobs and know the mechanics so people aren't going down anymore? What of your Necromancer then? I'll tell you, you are either asked to swap classes, or you continue to play Necromancer despite the fact that literally any other class in this game would be more efficient in your role. And sure, many people are ok with gimping their squad to play what they enjoy, and many squad members are ok with picking up the slack, but it shouldn't be this way in the first place.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

There is a gap between necro’s top performing dps spec relative to other classes. Arguing back and forth about its existence doesn’t change how the difference used to be smaller, and there were generally less complaints about dps discrepancy, if any at all. Nor will it do anything constructive for necro either.

So to fix this gap, why don’t we try discussing these instead:

Is necro’s dmg too low, or are the other professions too high?Dmg used to be lower overall but content was still completable. Is higher dmg the new standard for future content, or just unnecessary powercreep? Additionally, it’s only been ~two balance patches since the massive buffs, so maybe they just haven’t done a pass for necro yet? Alternatively, the massive buffs could just be reverted, or the broken traits that are defining these specs shot down for PvE.

If necro requires buffing, where/how would you even buff it?Power: skill coefficients already bonkers. Trait %s as high as they can be without being relatively broken. Lower CDs/cast times, or trash & replace which skills/traits w/o destroying PvP? Maybe necro (reaper) is stuck here, not in sustain.Condi is a bit less problematic: just add more stacks/duration (PvE only). Whether epi/utility needs to be considered is covered in the following point:

Are balancing factors actually relevant?Having necro doing anything near power weaver dps is instant bs. Where it is right now is acceptable (32k vs 36k). But there’s already specs with more utility/sustain/playability already benching higher than those with less. Are balancing factors really at play here and/or should they be?Let’s also try to at least acknowledge the more demanding conditions required by some of the specs.

What about other ‘necro-tier’ dps specs?Hypothetical: reaper got buffed somehow. So what about condi scg? Dps spb, dps herald, condi DD, dps scrapper etc? Don’t they count as ‘dps specs’ too? Or do we have to go on a nerfing spree for existing ‘dps specs’ that shouldn’t exist (and COMMIT to keeping it that way for future specs/balance)?

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

[LadyKitty.6120]

@"Noodle Ant.1605" said:There is a gap between necro’s top performing dps spec relative to other classes. Arguing back and forth about its existence doesn’t change how the difference used to be smaller, and there were generally less complaints about dps discrepancy, if any at all. Nor will it do anything constructive for necro either.

So to fix this gap, why don’t we try discussing these instead:

Is necro’s dmg too low, or are the other professions too high?Dmg used to be lower overall but content was still completable. Is higher dmg the new standard for future content, or just unnecessary powercreep? Additionally, it’s only been ~two balance patches since the massive buffs, so maybe they just haven’t done a pass for necro yet? Alternatively, the massive buffs could just be reverted, or the broken traits that are defining these specs shot down for PvE.Considering how there already was high-performing specs and lots of the buffs were to core specs, it looks like a new standard. Wouldn't be that much of an issue if they didn't ignore some already mid-low performing classes (which they did) putting them to bad position.

If necro requires buffing, where/how would you even buff it?Power: skill coefficients already bonkers. Trait %s as high as they can be without being relatively broken. Lower CDs/cast times, or trash & replace which skills/traits w/o destroying PvP? Maybe necro (reaper) is stuck here, not in sustain.Condi is a bit less problematic: just add more stacks/duration (PvE only). Whether epi/utility needs to be considered is covered in the following point:Except that reaper's supposed "heavy hitters" hit like a wet noodle compared to other power classes and the normal auto-attacks are weak considering the cast times. Having 2 relevant power damage-related utilities doesn't really help. So Kitty's suggestions for reaper:Revert off-hand Life Siphon-changes, boost auto-attacks to similar dps/cast time ratio as more powerful classes, boost Well of Corruption a bit, boost dagger 2 and 3. We're talking of 10ish% boosts here to aforementioned things and in total they'd contribute about 6-8% due to reaper dps consisting of lots of other things, too.For Scourge: boost numbers on off-hand dagger 5 (currently pretty much unused and would reward for swapping off-hands for more active play), scepter 2, 3 and torch 4. Increase torment duration on Desert Shroud from 10 to 12 seconds and burning to 6 seconds on Trail of Anguish.

Are balancing factors actually relevant?Having necro doing anything near power weaver dps is instant bs. Where it is right now is acceptable (32k vs 36k). But there’s already specs with more utility/sustain/playability already benching higher than those with less. Are balancing factors really at play here and/or should they be?Let’s also try to at least acknowledge the more demanding conditions required by some of the specs.Power weeber could also use a boost as well as condi engi (Shrapnel bleed from 6 to 7 seconds and Incendiary Powder burn from 8 to 10 seconds) and also power dagger (Heartseeker to 1.2 above 50% and 1.6 below 50%) and sword deadeyes (Pistol Whip initial hit from 0.37 to 0.8-1.0 multiplier) after those recent changes.

What about other ‘necro-tier’ dps specs?Hypothetical: reaper got buffed somehow. So what about condi scg? Dps spb, dps herald, condi DD, dps scrapper etc? Don’t they count as ‘dps specs’ too? Or do we have to go on a nerfing spree for existing ‘dps specs’ that shouldn’t exist (and COMMIT to keeping it that way for future specs/balance)?Boost condi thief (Panic Strike poison to 6 seconds, Death Blossom from 3 to 4 stacks of bleed, Lotus Strike poison from 5s to 6s) and dps spb (boost dagger autos by 0.10 multiplier, Aura Slicer from 1.2 to 1.4, Breaching Strike from 1.5 to 1.6, Wastrel's Ruin from 1.5 to 1.6 and Bladestorm from 2.45 to 2.6). DPS scrapper is already above reaper (and it's god-tier in everything except below average dps). Some other weapons that need MASSIVE boost in PVE are rev hammer, warrhammer and engi's Tool kit. Warr's off-hand sword and thief's shortbow could also use a bit of boost as well as ele's earth auto-attacks on dagger, scepter and staff. Elixir Gun on engi should just be turned into a booning support weapon as it currently has strictly one skill worth using and that's EG5 for heals. EG4 sometimes for blast finisher.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

[Obtena.7952]

@Shaogin.2679 said:And sure, many people are ok with gimping their squad to play what they enjoy, and many squad members are ok with picking up the slack, but it shouldn't be this way in the first place.

Again, there isn't some rule that you can beat Anet over the head with that says it shouldn't be that way. I get you have this as an opinion, but do not throw your opinion around like its some holy decree of MMO game design that Anet is defying.

You have jumped too far ahead and missed many steps, making the wrong conclusion that class DPS differences are wrong. You have to ask yourself why it's like this in the first place.

[Obtena.7952]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:There is a gap between necro’s top performing dps spec relative to other classes. Arguing back and forth about its existence doesn’t change how the difference used to be smaller, and there were generally less complaints about dps discrepancy, if any at all. Nor will it do anything constructive for necro either.

So to fix this gap, why don’t we try discussing these instead:

Is necro’s dmg too low, or are the other professions too high?

This question can't be answered because there is nothing in this game that prevents an individual player from succeeding because their individual DPS is too low. If we can't answer this question because of a lack of a game mechanic, the ACTUAL question to ask is why it matters in the first place ... the answer to that is simply because players want equality.

[Sobx.1758]

How is this different from this thread: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/101131/raids-are-not-balanced-when-there-is-a-9-10k-difference-between-professions/p1 ?

Also look for answers there.tl;dr: It's acceptable, because raids aren't balanced around highest possible dps, you don't need anywhere close to those numbers to easly succeed; it's not a competitive mode so it doesn't matter and finally you're not bound to one character -if you want optimal setup, pick optimal setup.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Noodle Ant.1605" said:There is a gap between necro’s top performing dps spec relative to other classes. Arguing back and forth about its existence doesn’t change how the difference used to be smaller, and there were generally less complaints about dps discrepancy, if any at all. Nor will it do anything constructive for necro either.

So to fix this gap, why don’t we try discussing these instead:

Is necro’s dmg too low, or are the other professions too high?Dmg used to be lower overall but content was still completable. Is higher dmg the new standard for future content, or just unnecessary powercreep? Additionally, it’s only been ~two balance patches since the massive buffs, so maybe they just haven’t done a pass for necro yet? Alternatively, the massive buffs could just be reverted, or the broken traits that are defining these specs shot down for PvE.i just went looking for old benchmarsk, and found out (for example) this:[qT] May 16, 2017 Balance Patch: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6ch3ot/qt_updated_benchmarks_for_all_classes_may_16_2017/[qT] August 8th, 2017 Balance Patch: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/6tumlb/qt_updated_benchmarks_and_builds_for_all_classes/[qT] November 7th, 2017 Balance Patch: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7dtd6o/qt_updated_benchmarks_and_builds_november_7th/[sC] Updated Benchmarks 12.12.2017: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7kda0q/sc_updated_benchmarks_12122017/[sC] Updated Benchmarks (06/02 Patch) 2018: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/7xr60v/sc_updated_benchmarks_0602_patch/[sC] Updated Benchmarks (10/07 Balance Patch) 2019: https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8z1xk2/sc_updated_benchmarks_1007_balance_patch/

Yes, sure, definitely the dps nowaday is so much higher than in the past, it was always lower before [/sarcasm]

(hint: the dps now is not a case of massive buffs that will be eventually reverted back to normal levels. It is a normal level, to which many classes just returned after a wave of massive nerfs that for a short while brought class dps way below usual values.)

(Edit: and, looking more closely, and finding among the threads i have looked through, one in which you are tracking the dps history of mesmers, i'm surprised you seem to be unaware of this).

Notice, by the way, where the necro sits in all this. Yep, seems familiar, doesn't it.

In all the benchmarks i have seen there was exactly one case where necro was relatively high - a 38k condi scourge benchmark, due to some trait/skill interactions devs overlooked - and like expected, that got nerfed hard very fast. For the most time necro benchmarks were flipflopping between as high as 32-33k down to 24k low (and a lot of cases where the dps was so low necro didn't even get mentioned at all).And i should add that all the cases where necro got a benchmark above 30k were also the cases where other classes were very high on dps - the overall relative dps gap between necro builds and top dps ones pretty much remained as big as it is now (or even bigger at many times).

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@Obtena.7952I posed the questions so that these complaints would maybe become slightly more constructive (or at least reduce the back-and-forth spam). You are correct in that these can’t be properly answered (by us, at least). But that doesn’t stop players from trying - hence the persistence of these threads.

Regardless, the fact that the questions I posted are unanswerable is... irrelevant. If these players truly want to buff/‘balance’ necro, their suggestions could come off as better constructed if they actually answered aspects of these questions.

@Astralporing.1957It’s great that you went for 3 years ago (potentially highest avg dps) instead of the time with the lowest avg dps (something somewhere post meteor shower & banner nerfs). Whatever, I found a nice friend who you can argue with, their name is the top of this comment and you probably already know why I think you should argue with them on this matter.

Edit: the ‘standard’ right now is 36-40k. The first list you posted has rough avg of 29-35k?

Edit2 (after seeing your edit): if normalising dps requires the use of janky traits, then I’m not so sure about this ‘balance’ because the required conditions for each class is technically not balanced.

I can just remove the ‘used to be’ part if you want, everything else still stays intact.

[Obtena.7952]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:@Obtena.7952I posed the questions so that these complaints would maybe become slightly more constructive (or at least reduce the back-and-forth spam). You are correct in that these can’t be properly answered (by us, at least). But that doesn’t stop players from trying - hence the persistence of these threads.

Regardless, the fact that the questions I posted are unanswerable is... irrelevant. If these players truly want to buff/‘balance’ necro, their suggestions could come off as better constructed if they actually answered aspects of these questions.

Well, it sort of is relevant because the question has to be answerable if we want Anet to change it. I mean, Anet has basically already answered that question by how they implement the game. Clearly DPS differences between classes are acceptable to them, in the ranges that we have historically seen them.

You know the irony is that EVEN if all classes were equivalent in DPS that this would still not ensure Necro had a place in the meta right? It's so sad that it's almost funny to see how desperate people are to get something that doesn't actually get them what they want ... when they could already have it by making good choices.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse or the issue and you know it again how do you sleep at night when you know what your really doing?

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.

[Shaogin.2679]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever, simply because it is unable to. Instead, it will continue to attempt to derail any thread like this with theories, irrelevant personal opinions, and conjecture. It is best to ignore the little troll so we can talk about actual facts, data, and balancing concepts.