I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

[Obtena.7952]

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever...

The fact that is the success threshold for endgame content is low enough that it accommodates players that play builds they want regardless of their DPS IS a valid argument and any attempt to dismiss it is VERY dishonest ... and you know that and most importantly, the people you need to convince know it too. I've offered that argument up more than once as well, so you can't say you missed it. If it's so not valid, then why do you and others work so hard to ignore it?

Make no mistake ... I'm going to continue to say it and challenge the ideas people like you put forward because those ideas are a direct attack on the fundamental philosophy of allowing me, you and everyone to play how we want to play, EVEN if most people don't realize it. I'm not asking hard questions ... so if you don't want to engage in a discussion, you don't have much to say.

Why do you think the game works like this? HINT: It's not an accident.

[Ryou.2398]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

[Ryou.2398]

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever, simply because it is unable to. Instead, it will continue to attempt to derail any thread like this with theories, irrelevant personal opinions, and conjecture. It is best to ignore the little troll so we can talk about actual facts, data, and balancing concepts.

Right but he always gets away with it while he attacks and insults others and accuses things about them, yet the rest of us get censored hmmm.

[Noodle Ant.1605]

@Obtena.7952 said:Anet has basically already answered that question by how they implement the game. Clearly DPS differences between classes are acceptable to them, in the ranges that we have historically seen them.We don't know that. Unless Anet straight up declares that they hate necro and will forever keep them at the 'bottom', forum posters will continue to make argue about it until it reaches a level they deem reasonable (not even near meta, I'd put figures just at 34-35k, even though the 'standard' is 36-40k). Might as well provoke Anet to state their intentions now so everyone knows whether to switch classes and leave their hopes in necro to die.

@Astralporing.1957 said:(hint: the dps now is not a case of massive buffs that will be eventually reverted back to normal levels. It is a normal level, to which many classes just returned after a wave of massive nerfs that for a short while brought class dps way below usual values.)

I tried answering this in an edit in my last comment, but I'll answer it properly here: some of the specs that have successfully reached the 'normalised' 36-40k standard are currently reliant on situational conditions that dictate ~20% of the given spec's dps (without them, they bench closer to reaper values). Some conditions require more organisation than others. And then there's specs whose effectiveness massively depends on the boss and not the player/comp. And then there's specs that require little to no additional conditions at all.

Although dps is 'balanced', the conditions of use is definitely not. Using similar principles, necro dps should reach these normal values through Dread (which it already does, but the game requires far more sources of fear). But it doesn't seem like a very popular idea, compared to say, Siphoned Power being turned into a ~10% dmg trait (with reasonable conditions).

(Edit: and, looking more closely, and finding among the threads i have looked through, one in which you are tracking the dps history of mesmers, i'm surprised you seem to be unaware of this).

Funny you should bring this up. If you understood why I made that thread, you'd also understand that I'm averse to balancing using said janky traits/conditions (although that thread has other priorities). Just the same as how I'm averse to Anet to balance necro in the same manner (i.e. Dread). You are correct that Anet has only been buffing things recently - but to a normal level? Who can truly say what that value is?

Everything else - like Obtena, you're suggesting that Anet hates necros and all that we should really do is abandon ship. Continually restating that necro has been at the 'bottom' does not contribute anything to the discussion other than 'just give up'. Unless that was your intention.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@"Astralporing.1957" said:(hint: the dps now is not a case of massive buffs that will be eventually reverted back to normal levels. It

is

a normal level, to which many classes just returned after a wave of massive nerfs that for a short while brought class dps way below usual values.)

I tried answering this in an edit in my last comment, but I'll answer it properly here: some of the specs that have successfully reached the 'normalised' 36-40k standard are currently reliant on situational conditions that dictate ~20% of the given spec's dps (without them, they bench closer to reaper values). Some conditions require more organisation than others. And then there's specs whose effectiveness massively depends on the boss and not the player/comp. And then there's specs that require little to no additional conditions at all.Even without the more extreme/wonky cases of such situationals, other classes still place above necro. And the 'boss-specific" modifiers do not usually make their way into benchmarks, because they do not work on golem.

Although dps is 'balanced', the conditions of use is definitely not. Using similar principles, necro dps should reach these normal values through Dread (which it already does, but the game requires far more sources of fear). But it doesn't seem like a very popular idea, compared to say, Siphoned Power being turned into a ~10% dmg trait (with reasonable conditions).Necro's

already

suffering from this - his dps is massively dependant on

not getting damaged when in shroud

. That is a very crippling situational compared to, say, condi soulbeast's requirement of flanking.

Everything else - like Obtena, you're suggesting that Anet hates necros and all that we should really do is abandon ship. Continually restating that necro has been at the 'bottom' does not contribute anything to the discussion other than 'just give up'. Unless that was your intention.No, i am not suggesting Anet hates necros. I am suggesting, that they have a problem balancing it properly due to some other considerations, that have nothing to do with liking or disliking the class, but still have no real place as a balancing factor in PvE.

First, as it was always the case, it's Necro's PvP's effectiveness that limits how good it is in PvE. Anet in the past has been well known to nerf PvE builds because they thought the class was too good in PvP. Or been afraid to buff PvE because they were afraid of PvP consequences. For other classes that happened from time to time, but Necro was for a long time way too good in PvP, and that colored Anet's view of the class. And we're still dealing with the fallout for that.

Second, Anet originally thought that Shroud is a good balancing factor in PvE. Since Necro was so "tanky", it didn't need so much dps as other classes, right? Unfortunately, it turned out that in pve being "tanky" is not just a matter of bigger HP bar (or having two bars, as in this case), but also of active defences, of which necro doesn;t have all that many. Additionally, being "tanky" turns out to be worth less and less the more skilled you are, while the upper limit of offensive effectiveness becomes more and more important.

And there was, of course, Anet's thematic vision for this class that hampered its design. From the very beginning, Anet saw Necro as a "selfish" class - one that does not contribute anything to others (thus, boons, if any, given mostly to yourself, without really considering how this class can contribute to a group). It was not a "balancing" factor, but a thematic one. The same with Reaper being slow, lumbering, untiringly pursuing menace (a vision that put a lot of emphasis on having a few strong attacks with long activation times and cooldowns, and having a lot of HP that is your main defensive feature, but actually ignored any form of active defences and the need for high sustained dps). Scourge had some slightly different paradigms (for one, it was considered to be a support spec, so finally the "selfish" paradigm went out of the window), but brought out with it a slew of other problems those new paradigms caused. You see, it was viewed as a support spec, so obviously it couldn't have dps comparable to that of dps specs (that's something one of the devs actually said straight out in one of the balance discussions at some point, if i remember it right). Incidentally, Scourge happened at the same time Anet decided that Reaper having condi builds doesn't fit with their vision for this class, so they nerfed it. Hard (hint: that initial nerf took off like 10k off reaper dps, and it's still below what those condi builds were capable of at their highest point). Incidentally, when people thought that at least Scourge will pick up the condi role Reaper was deprived of, said "it's not a condi dps, it's a support class" balancing due to vision alone happened.

Basically, necro in PvE is still, even now, being crippled by its thematics, its PvP capability, and the assumption that having a second HP bar through shroud mechanic is a worthy compensation for way lower dps capability in any content where that dps effectiveness actually matters. Even at the time when Anet was buffing everything, necro's still being hampered by Anet's way of thinking that has nothing to do with actual PvE balancing. For anything to change, that has to stop. Or we'll keep seeing those threads again, and again, and again. Just as we kept seeing them on consistent basis since the very beginning of the game.

[Methuselah.4376]

I love power Reaper and am quite decent with it and yes in most raid pugs I am part of the top 3 dps and often even 1st. But once you get a group of skilled players, you will be dead last regardless of how good you are with Reaper. And dps scourge...I've actually grown to hate playing it, far prefer heal scourge which in turn is useless in a good raid group.Buffs I would like to see?Siphoned Power also gives +10% damage while under the effects of might.Unyielding Blast also gives +5% damage when hitting an enemy with vulnerability.Soul Barbs lasts twice as long or have it activate when entering battle and then doubling the bonus damage while in shroud.Soul Eater increase the healing to 10% and restore the 5% healing while in shroud.Greatsword auto being faster and with all gs skills having much reduced after casts.Well of Corruption having the same CD as Well of SufferingLich Form (as much as I personally love the transform visuals) changed to Aura of the Lich, where it's a combination of Summon Madness and Grim Spectre (60-90s CD)

These should put power Reaper comfortably in the 36k range, maybe even as high as 38k. Obviously now a lot of people are going to moan about it being too OP considering it's natural tankiness. Yes there's the argument that higher health helps with things like boss aura damage and all that, but as others have stated, a competent player should be avoiding all avoidable sources of damage. The healer can easily help with the ticking damage. Also some of these changes can easily be left for PvE only; now that we have split balancing, PvP/WvW should no longer be holding necro back.

Now as far as a condi option goes? I am actually in favour of core necro becoming the condi choice, but that would require a LOT of work. Scourge needs to bring better support options than just barrier and power rezzing, something that makes it useful in an good group.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:Because Necro has OP levels of carry options.

Because Necro is the easiest class in the game.

Because Necro is the safe option, even as dps.Stack necros and you cant really fail most raids/strikes.

Necro is by design "slow but steady".

It has the highest chance of success but will not break a record.(If you cant epi bounce)

Basically, Necro is the easymode of Gw2.

Well it is not true.

• Technically any boons or effects deemed as mandatory for end game PvE content are just as OP Carry effects as what the necromancer can do (maybe even more). Most players go through the PvE content through sheer dps, the boons and effects allowing it are just as OP as a bit of barrier and some rallying effects.
• Every profession is easy to play, the necromancer isn't the easiest nor the hardest. You don't need more brain/reflex/skill to play a guardian, a warrior, a ranger, a thief or a necromancer. Saying otherwise would be being hypocritical.
• You can fail raids/strike with full necromancer just as much as you can fail it when anything else.
• Well, indeed, the necro is slow by design, steady... Well let's say that it's not much steadier than other, at least it's less steady on it's feets than other professions since it's weak to CC.
• It doesn't have the highest chance of success, nope. Let try to not forget that the necromancer suffer the same struggle than other profession in front of the boss. A necromancer is just as unlikely to dish out golem dps level on a boss than any other profession is.

The necromancer isn't the "easymode" of GW2 otherwise you'd never play any other profession over it.

[Anchoku.8142]

For perspective, recall that there was a time when Necro was actively excluded from PvE because it did a tiny fraction of top profession dps and brought no utility at all. Arenanet took years to address that issue because they were being pig-headedly stubborn.

Try running numbers with core Necro and recall the years of buffing dps and support to make it that "good."

Mesmer was at the bottom, too, and known mostly for portals.

[Astralporing.1957]

@"Anchoku.8142" said:For perspective, recall that there was a time when Necro was actively excluded from PvE because it did a tiny fraction of top profession dps and brought no utility at all. Arenanet took years to address that issue because they were being pig-headedly stubborn.

Try running numbers with core Necro and recall the years of buffing dps and support to make it that "good."

Mesmer was at the bottom, too, and known mostly for portals.Mesmer at least had timewarp. And after HoT, in the early raid times, even if it still competed with necro in the low damage numbers, it was still considered to be obligatory in raids due to its support chrono builds.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever...

The fact that is the success threshold for endgame content is low enough that it accommodates players that play builds they want regardless of their DPS IS a valid argument and any attempt to dismiss it is VERY dishonest ... and you know that and most importantly, the people you need to convince know it too. I've offered that argument up more than once as well, so you can't say you missed it. If it's so not valid, then why do you and others work so hard to ignore it?

Make no mistake ... I'm going to continue to say it and challenge the ideas people like you put forward because those ideas are a direct attack on the fundamental philosophy of allowing me, you and everyone to play how we want to play, EVEN if most people don't realize it. I'm not asking hard questions ... so if you don't want to engage in a discussion, you don't have much to say.

Why do you think the game works like this? HINT: It's not an accident.

Are you really honest to yourself and your philosophy, or do you secretly have a hidden agenda?I mean, in one of the biggest threads ever in this subforum, you were conveniently silent .... And you know which thread I'm talking about (hint: starts with an E and ends with pidemic ...) I've never saw you spreading your gospel in there ...

[Obtena.7952]

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

[Obtena.7952]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever...

The fact that is the success threshold for endgame content is low enough that it accommodates players that play builds they want regardless of their DPS IS a valid argument and any attempt to dismiss it is VERY dishonest ... and you know that and most importantly, the people you need to convince know it too. I've offered that argument up more than once as well, so you can't say you missed it. If it's so not valid, then why do you and others work so hard to ignore it?

Make no mistake ... I'm going to continue to say it and challenge the ideas people like you put forward because those ideas are a direct attack on the fundamental philosophy of allowing me, you and everyone to play how we want to play, EVEN if most people don't realize it. I'm not asking hard questions ... so if you don't want to engage in a discussion, you don't have much to say.

Why do you think the game works like this? HINT: It's not an accident.

Are you really honest to yourself and your philosophy, or do you secretly have a hidden agenda?

That doesn't make sense ... how the game works isn't MY philosophy .. it's Anet's.

[Obtena.7952]

@Noodle Ant.1605 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Anet has basically already answered that question by how they implement the game. Clearly DPS differences between classes are acceptable to them, in the ranges that we have historically seen them.We don't know that. Unless Anet straight up declares that they hate necro and will forever keep them at the 'bottom', forum posters will continue to make argue about it until it reaches a level they deem reasonable (not even near meta, I'd put figures just at 34-35k, even though the 'standard' is 36-40k). Might as well provoke Anet to state their intentions now so everyone knows whether to switch classes and leave their hopes in necro to die.

Wait what? You don't know if Anet thinks the DPS difference is acceptable? If that's true, why has it existed for 8 years?

If you don't think Anet's ACTIONS towards how they implement the game are a stronger statement than some words they would give you on the forum, you just aren't being honest with yourself. The situation we have now in the game is NOT an accident. If you still hold hope that it is an accident, then your timeframe for changes to fix it are on the same order as the the timeframe it's existed. If you have a problem with continuing to play this class for years in it's current state, then you should ALREADY be switching classes.

[Dadnir.5038]

I wouldn't say that ANet's priority balance-wise is PvE. I don't think I've seen some relevant change in PvE balance in the last 6 month. At best any change to PvE seemed to be collateral damage.

[Agrippa.1693]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever...

The fact that is the success threshold for endgame content is low enough that it accommodates players that play builds they want regardless of their DPS IS a valid argument and any attempt to dismiss it is VERY dishonest ... and you know that and most importantly, the people you need to convince know it too. I've offered that argument up more than once as well, so you can't say you missed it. If it's so not valid, then why do you and others work so hard to ignore it?

Make no mistake ... I'm going to continue to say it and challenge the ideas people like you put forward because those ideas are a direct attack on the fundamental philosophy of allowing me, you and everyone to play how we want to play, EVEN if most people don't realize it. I'm not asking hard questions ... so if you don't want to engage in a discussion, you don't have much to say.

Why do you think the game works like this? HINT: It's not an accident.

Are you really honest to yourself and your philosophy, or do you secretly have a hidden agenda?

That doesn't make sense ... how the game works isn't MY philosophy .. it's Anet's.

Really? Normally you never miss a chance to let yourself heard in every single thread where people complain about balance issues. But the ONE thread where you especially could've shined with your so called "ANet philosophy" (cause epi was already there for ages), and in all those weeks (months even) that the whining about how strong Epi was and it wasnt fair blah die blah die blah kept on going. Not even ones our "hero" Obtena showed up to save the day. And it would've been so easy, you clould just really copy/paste your kitten you always put out: hell, let me do it for you: Epidemic has been like this for years now, maybe that's how ANet wanted it ...But no .... No Obtena. I think you have a whole different agenda, you just don't want to come out for it.

Ow, and btw, I didnt see you in these other threads complaining about the Scourges damage being to high just after launch of PoF either .... coincidence????

[Obtena.7952]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Shaogin.2679 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ryou.2398 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now

that

is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

1. the people that stay are more tolerant to it
2. it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years yet your always there trying to make the other person look bad and defending anet, I wonder how you sleep at night with this kind of job, making people feel horrible when you know your wrong, making people feel very unwelcome to post any constructive criticism what so ever.

You'll have to ignore Obtena. It is just here to troll. It has offered no valid arguments concerning balance what-so-ever...

The fact that is the success threshold for endgame content is low enough that it accommodates players that play builds they want regardless of their DPS IS a valid argument and any attempt to dismiss it is VERY dishonest ... and you know that and most importantly, the people you need to convince know it too. I've offered that argument up more than once as well, so you can't say you missed it. If it's so not valid, then why do you and others work so hard to ignore it?

Make no mistake ... I'm going to continue to say it and challenge the ideas people like you put forward because those ideas are a direct attack on the fundamental philosophy of allowing me, you and everyone to play how we want to play, EVEN if most people don't realize it. I'm not asking hard questions ... so if you don't want to engage in a discussion, you don't have much to say.

Why do you think the game works like this? HINT: It's not an accident.

Are you really honest to yourself and your philosophy, or do you secretly have a hidden agenda?

That doesn't make sense ... how the game works isn't MY philosophy .. it's Anet's.

Really?

Yes Really ... they made the game, they implemented play how you want philosophy ... that's not my decision.

As for the other stuff ... I don't know what you are going on about. My issues with the game has NEVER been about DPS too high or low on some skill, so why you think I would jump in to rescue some thread arguing about DPS on a skill, ... well, that is nonsensical. How that links to what we are discussing here ... even moreso.

let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game.

[Shaogin.2679]

@"Astralporing.1957" said:First, as it was always the case, it's Necro's PvP's effectiveness that limits how good it is in PvE. Anet in the past has been well known to nerf PvE builds because they thought the class was too good in PvP. Or been afraid to buff PvE because they were afraid of PvP consequences. For other classes that happened from time to time, but Necro was for a long time way too good in PvP, and that colored Anet's view of the class. And we're still dealing with the fallout for that.

Second, Anet originally thought that Shroud is a good balancing factor in PvE. Since Necro was so "tanky", it didn't need so much dps as other classes, right? Unfortunately, it turned out that in pve being "tanky" is not just a matter of bigger HP bar (or having two bars, as in this case), but also of active defences, of which necro doesn;t have all that many. Additionally, being "tanky" turns out to be worth less and less the more skilled you are, while the upper limit of offensive effectiveness becomes more and more important.

And there was, of course, Anet's thematic vision for this class that hampered its design. From the very beginning, Anet saw Necro as a "selfish" class - one that does not contribute anything to others (thus, boons, if any, given mostly to yourself, without really considering how this class can contribute to a group). It was not a "balancing" factor, but a thematic one. The same with Reaper being slow, lumbering, untiringly pursuing menace (a vision that put a lot of emphasis on having a few strong attacks with long activation times and cooldowns, and having a lot of HP that is your main defensive feature, but actually ignored any form of active defences and the need for high sustained dps). Scourge had some slightly different paradigms (for one, it was considered to be a support spec, so finally the "selfish" paradigm went out of the window), but brought out with it a slew of other problems those new paradigms caused. You see, it was viewed as a support spec, so obviously it couldn't have dps comparable to that of dps specs (that's something one of the devs actually said straight out in one of the balance discussions at some point, if i remember it right). Incidentally, Scourge happened at the same time Anet decided that Reaper having condi builds doesn't fit with their vision for this class, so they nerfed it. Hard (hint: that initial nerf took off like 10k off reaper dps, and it's still below what those condi builds were capable of at their highest point). Incidentally, when people thought that at least Scourge will pick up the condi role Reaper was deprived of, said "it's not a condi dps, it's a support class" balancing due to vision alone happened.

Basically, necro in PvE is still, even now, being crippled by its thematics, its PvP capability, and the assumption that having a second HP bar through shroud mechanic is a worthy compensation for way lower dps capability in any content where that dps effectiveness actually matters. Even at the time when Anet was buffing everything, necro's still being hampered by Anet's way of thinking that has nothing to do with actual PvE balancing. For anything to change, that has to stop. Or we'll keep seeing those threads again, and again, and again. Just as we kept seeing them on consistent basis since the very beginning of the game.

I feel as the whole "thematic vision" has been one of the greatest hindrances to class as a whole. And about Condi Scourge, I find it hilarious that their dps should be low due to them being a support spec, but at the same time it is completely ok for Firebrand to perform amazing in damage and support roles. Simply comparing the Guardian as a whole to Necromancer will give you an idea of how ridiculous this gap is.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Are you really honest to yourself and your philosophy, or do you secretly have a hidden agenda?I mean, in one of the biggest threads ever in this subforum, you were conveniently silent .... And you know which thread I'm talking about (hint: starts with an E and ends with pidemic ...) I've never saw you spreading your gospel in there ...That's probably because it was a thread in this subforum. This one started in general (i think, although it might have been also a dungeons one), it was just moved into here at some point. If it started in this subforum, i wouldn't know anything about it either.

@Obtena.7952 said:Wait what? You don't know if Anet thinks the DPS difference is acceptable? If that's true, why has it existed for 8 years?I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS) is something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

[Obtena.7952]

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

Not for nothing, but the large majority of your responses can be summed up as gaslighting by any definition. You seriously try to make the point that everyone secretly knows that your view of these things are the only correct possibility of how things are, but somehow they go against both what you AND they know to be true, to complain for no benefit. Makes no sense. The critical reality here is that player feedback is often important. Player outrage often can and has gotten some things changed, including some things that were set for many years (I.E. Epidemic, Meteor Storm, any core that suddenly got a hard nerf because reasons.)

There is no real good reason for Necromancers to be in the place they are in currently, from a utility or dps standpoint. You repeat over and over that clearly Anet wants it this way because that is how it's been, completely ignoring all of the factors that have been involved over the last 8 years. What would be a quick, easy explanation for why necromancer is in the pits in every category of endgame pve? The developers in charge of Necromancer balance, or class balance in general, probably don't play or care about the class very much. From what I've seen of all your posts to any thread I've seen in these sub, you'd fit in quite well with such a group. Saying over and over how it's a player perception problem is just passing the buck off the developers, and onto a player base that will obviously never fall in line with your opinion. It's easy to see why you are likely just someone who doesn't want the class as a whole to thrive in these environments, potentially because your own preferred classes would have more competition for their roles.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

There is no real good reason for Necromancers to be in the place they are in currently, from a utility or dps standpoint.

The complaint here is the preservation of game philosophy. If necros are in a bad place for DPS, then the argument to fix that is NOT because a few people making bad choices can't get teams. If you want a clue about how Anet think about class design and changes, you can look at my signature and convince yourself it has NOTHING to do with how class X does in instanced team content or that a class doesn't hit some DPS threshold Anet sets.

... and furthermore, you can't really say there isn't a 'real' good reason for Necro's current position, because you don't have a clue what criteria Anet is using to justify the current design on ANY class. The best we have been given some vague statements about how shroud sustain 'balances out' the DPS output ... or something like that.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

There is no real good reason for Necromancers to be in the place they are in currently, from a utility or dps standpoint.

The complaint here is the preservation of game philosophy. If necros are in a bad place for DPS, then the argument is NOT because a few people making bad choices can't get teams.

... and furthermore, you can't really say there isn't a 'real' good reason for Necro's current position, because you don't have a clue what criteria Anet is using to justify the current design on ANY class. The best we have are some vague statements about how shroud sustain 'balances out' the DPS output ... or something like that.

So there is a cogent game philosophy that says one class should be bad at everything in endgame content? It's not even about DPS to me, if they had something, anything, that they could be competitive with. I don't really like that people don't want my Tempest healer, but I can't knock the class as a whole because they can be competitive in some areas, just not ones that are the lane I want to be in. Necros are not competitive in endgame pve in ANY role. Not tank, dps, healer or support. Not even asking top tier, just competitive.

Edit: Forgot to say Healer.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

There is no real good reason for Necromancers to be in the place they are in currently, from a utility or dps standpoint.

The complaint here is the preservation of game philosophy. If necros are in a bad place for DPS, then the argument is NOT because a few people making bad choices can't get teams.

... and furthermore, you can't really say there isn't a 'real' good reason for Necro's current position, because you don't have a clue what criteria Anet is using to justify the current design on ANY class. The best we have are some vague statements about how shroud sustain 'balances out' the DPS output ... or something like that.

So there is a cogent game philosophy that says one class should be bad at everything in endgame content? It's not even about DPS to me, if they had something, anything, that they could be competitive with. I don't really like that people don't want my Tempest healer, but I can't knock the class as a whole because they can be competitive in some areas, just not ones that are the lane I want to be in. Necros are not competitive in endgame pve in ANY role. Not tank, dps, healer or support. Not even asking top tier, just competitive.

Edit: Forgot to say Healer.

This doesn't make sense ... what 'competitive' edge do you need to get team if you play with people that embrace the philosophy of the game? You're just playing into the hands of the people that want to tell you how to play the game; YOU are part of the problem if you think this way. Just don't play the game with those people and whatever 'competitive' edge you think you need disappears. If enough people reject this kind of thinking, the people that tell you how to play become extinct ... the only reason this continues to be a problem for you and others that think like you is because you have decided to give up your choice on who to play with.

The breakdown is simple: the ONLY reason you can't get teams that allow you to play necro is because you CHOOSE to play with people that are going to tell you how to play. If you throw yourself in with the population of people that don't understand what playing how you want means and the game is designed around that philosophy ... then OFC you're going to have problems.

So basically ... you advocate throwing the game philosophy under the bus in a chance that giving Necro more DPS increases your meta rank? Do you know insane that sounds? Like somehow you and everyone things Anet engineers the meta to control what classes are haves and have nots? That's crazy and any action taken on it jeopardizing one of the FEW things this game has going for it ... even MORE crazy.

[Ceit.7619]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

There is no real good reason for Necromancers to be in the place they are in currently, from a utility or dps standpoint.

The complaint here is the preservation of game philosophy. If necros are in a bad place for DPS, then the argument is NOT because a few people making bad choices can't get teams.

... and furthermore, you can't really say there isn't a 'real' good reason for Necro's current position, because you don't have a clue what criteria Anet is using to justify the current design on ANY class. The best we have are some vague statements about how shroud sustain 'balances out' the DPS output ... or something like that.

So there is a cogent game philosophy that says one class should be bad at everything in endgame content? It's not even about DPS to me, if they had something, anything, that they could be competitive with. I don't really like that people don't want my Tempest healer, but I can't knock the class as a whole because they can be competitive in some areas, just not ones that are the lane I want to be in. Necros are not competitive in endgame pve in ANY role. Not tank, dps, healer or support. Not even asking top tier, just competitive.

Edit: Forgot to say Healer.

This doesn't make sense ... what 'competitive' edge do you need to get team if you play with people that embrace the philosophy of the game? You're just playing into the hands of the people that want to tell you how to play the game; YOU are part of the problem if you think this way. Just don't play the game with those people and whatever 'competitive' edge you think you need disappears. If enough people reject this kind of thinking, the people that tell you how to play become extinct ... the only reason this continues to be a problem for you and others that think like you is because you have decided to give up your choice on who to play with.

The breakdown is simple: the ONLY reason you can't get teams that allow you to play necro is because you CHOOSE to play with people that are going to tell you how to play. If you throw yourself in with the population of people that don't understand what playing how you want means and the game is designed around that philosophy ... then OFC you're going to have problems.

Like I said in the first place, your entire message completely passes the buck. The developers don't need, and shouldn't be expected to balance their game effectively. Players should just play classes that are meta, or create a social network of people who don't mind bringing along classes that need to be carried through the content.

I will ask again, what cogent philosophy exists that says one class should just be bad at everything? The game is designed around necromancers being bad? What exactly do you think their philosophy is? All you do is state what you think it isn't.

[Obtena.7952]

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Ceit.7619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:let's be clear ... if you want to talk about Epidemic, you go ahead but whether I participate in that discussion has NOTHING to do with why

the DPS gap between classes isn't a problem for getting teams and being successful in endgame instanced content in this game

.Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)

is

something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices.

There is no real good reason for Necromancers to be in the place they are in currently, from a utility or dps standpoint.

The complaint here is the preservation of game philosophy. If necros are in a bad place for DPS, then the argument is NOT because a few people making bad choices can't get teams.

... and furthermore, you can't really say there isn't a 'real' good reason for Necro's current position, because you don't have a clue what criteria Anet is using to justify the current design on ANY class. The best we have are some vague statements about how shroud sustain 'balances out' the DPS output ... or something like that.

So there is a cogent game philosophy that says one class should be bad at everything in endgame content? It's not even about DPS to me, if they had something, anything, that they could be competitive with. I don't really like that people don't want my Tempest healer, but I can't knock the class as a whole because they can be competitive in some areas, just not ones that are the lane I want to be in. Necros are not competitive in endgame pve in ANY role. Not tank, dps, healer or support. Not even asking top tier, just competitive.

Edit: Forgot to say Healer.

This doesn't make sense ... what 'competitive' edge do you need to get team if you play with people that embrace the philosophy of the game? You're just playing into the hands of the people that want to tell you how to play the game; YOU are part of the problem if you think this way. Just don't play the game with those people and whatever 'competitive' edge you think you need disappears. If enough people reject this kind of thinking, the people that tell you how to play become extinct ... the only reason this continues to be a problem for you and others that think like you is because you have decided to give up your choice on who to play with.

The breakdown is simple: the ONLY reason you can't get teams that allow you to play necro is because you CHOOSE to play with people that are going to tell you how to play. If you throw yourself in with the population of people that don't understand what playing how you want means and the game is designed around that philosophy ... then OFC you're going to have problems.

Like I said in the first place, your entire message completely passes the buck. The developers don't need, and shouldn't be expected to balance their game effectively. Players should just play classes that are meta, or create a social network of people who don't mind bringing along classes that need to be carried through the content.

Of course it passes the buck ... who has the control on the game design? That's like saying I'm passing the buck for driving the bus to the busdriver. What's the problem with that? The fact is plain: the threshold for succeeding in endgame content is low, so players can play how they want and succeed. There is no NEED for some 'competitive edge' to do that ... unless you choose to let someone else tell you how to play.

I will ask again, what cogent philosophy exists that says one class should just be bad at everything? The game is designed around necromancers being bad?

There isn't one that I'm aware of . I will say again, I'm not against necros getting improvements but don't make it sound like me supporting playing how you want means I think Necros have to be bad either ... Nice attempt.

What exactly do you think their philosophy is? All you do is state what you think it isn't.

This is not true at all: I've already said what Anet's philosophy is many times: players can play how they want and succeed ... and frankly, that's exactly how the game works if you ally and team with people that think the same. If you don't, then that's on you, not Anet, to fix.