I'm sorry but how is this acceptable?

Ryou.2398 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Ryou.2398 said:
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@Obtena.7952 said:
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@Agrippa Oculus.3726 said:Imo, there's only one real reason why ANet didnt do anything about it yet: they use their resources elsewhere. And let's be honest, it's not even a weird conclusion, if they do anything about balancing (about 4 times a year, ... which already says enough imo), it's mostly (and definitely as of late) only for PvP and WvW anyway. PvE balance is just not that important for them. Are they making the wrong decision there ... I actually don't know. Now
that
is something to discuss ...

It's absolutely a weird conclusion considering the number of times Anet have made adjustments to classes in balance patches. Maybe you have convinced yourself otherwise but ... it CAN'T be true that every balance patch to hit us was because of PVP/WvW; there are simply too many changes and PVE is too big a game mode for them to ignore it.

I mean, look at what you JUST said:

PVE balance is just not that important to them (you're talking DPS balance correct?)

Um ... how does that NOT lead you to conclude that even if they DID have the resources, they wouldn't balance all classes to an equivalent DPS level? You guys need to come around to the idea that the game already accommodates the DPS differences. PVE balance is totally important ... that's why the threshold for completing endgame content is low ... so that everyone can play the builds they want. The balance is NOT about everyone doing the same DPS with a specific build ... that's a stupid idea. The balance here is allowing people to use the builds they want to succeed in the game ... which is what they promised us this game would be.

More damage control on balance it seems.

Can you explain? What's happening here isn't new; it's been the way it worked for almost 8 years.

Other then the pure damage control there is nothing to explain.

OK ... I'm satisfied with that. I gave the benefit of the doubt you had something of value to discuss; it's your choice if that's how you want to waste your replies to me. Regardless, I will give you the courtesy of a response.

Unless someone has a reason that Anet needs to adjust class DPS despite the current accommodations the game already has to account for those DPS differences, we will all settle for 'damage control' until that changes I guess. There certainly isn't one from a game mechanics perspective to change it.

Maybe Anet just decides to do it regardless ... but I'm willing to bet my last dollar that as time goes on, that possibility becomes smaller every day because:

the people that stay are more tolerant to it
it's less work and they have more experience in adjusting for that DPS difference on the content side vs. the class side.

There has been tons of evidence stacking up when anet has been able to fix things for years

Just because Anet fixes something doesn't mean it's relevant to the problem we are talking about here. I mean, that's so vague it's meaningless ... if Anet has done so much to fix this problem ... why are we still seeing these threads? I mean, is there some unspoken rule of physics that says Anet can only close the gap by 100 DPS every year or something? If you know something, go ahead and tell us, otherwise I'm going to assume that if this was the significant problem everyone here says it is, anet would fix it and not wait 8 years to do. Is 8 years not enough? How much time do you think they will need to change this DPS difference? maybe 12? 15? I mean, you HAVE to assume that if they haven't done it yet, but they want to, there must be some REALLY compelling reason behind that. I would love to here your theory on that because trust me, this isn't a question I haven't asked myself.

Seems like you are saying that because Anet CAN fix something, DPS differences between classes is bad and needs to be fixed? That doesn't make sense. There is no relationship between Anet being able to change the game and the idea that DPS differences are a problem that needs to be fixed.

@Ryou.2398 said:making people feel horrible when you know your wrong ...

But I'm not wrong because the game doesn't follow the traditional ideas that people impose on it ... the solution to this already exists ... you just want to ignore it. Want to feel better? Team with people like me that don't care what your DPS is. If you're looking to 'feel better' waiting for a solution from Anet, then obviously you don't care that much about your well-being in the first place.

I think one of the worst aspects is that people aren't even asking for what they really want. It's not DPS ... it's a higher level profile in the PVE endgame meta ... What would you rather have? 35K DPS and still no guarantee to teams or 20K DPS and guaranteed team spot every time? People, you got to start thinking. You got to start asking yourselves the hard questions, even the ones where you don't like the answers.

That is not an excuse ...

Of course it's not an excuse ... it wasn't intended to be and don't try to make it sound like it was. You tell me I'm wrong, but you don't ask yourself the fundamental question about why the game works like this in the first place, since the beginning. I'm asking you to think about that, you avoid doing so. You know the answer is one you don't want to believe.You are constantly trying to excuse anet for their decisions so stop trying to pretend you ever did anything else different.

My process is simply observing how the game works and it's Anet's perrogative to implement the game how they want to. There is no 'excusing' Anet because they aren't held accountable to a standard of game design ... and it they do, it's certainly not based on what any player thinks it should be. If you don't like how the game works, OK ... but don 't pretend how it works is wrong because you don't like it.

... and you still aren't asking yourself why it works this way either ... of course.

Your only proving what I said more.

That's good, cause I got nothing to hide.

Your always defending yourself when your being called out, one would think that indictates quite well it is something to hide.

Nercos do not need a DPS boost because players make bad choices in the game. There isn't anything hiding behind that statement.

But you said anything to hide, this is not just about necros but your constant trolling, attempt to discredit, or manipulation to players who have anything constructive to state about balance or anything negative about the game as a whole.

I have lots of constructive things to say about the state of balance. I love the fact that I don't have to worry about crunching numbers and perfecting rotations to be successful. I love that I can play builds and classes I want to play in the endgame ... and it was as simple as finding and teaming with people that think the exact same way I do. I love the fact that Anet enables us to do this by having a low threshold for success by considering DPS differences on the content side vs. the class side. That was a really smart move if you want my opinion.

Like this has anything to do with the balance issues, you keep going on how you can find a guilt that does not crunch numbers which you may be able to find in any mmo. Your just avoiding the points as you do best, nice editing btw.

Hold on ... you said I didn't have anything constructive to say about the state of balance; way to change the goal posts buddy. I actually have lots of praise to the current state of balance because of what it allows me to do that other games don't.

You see, what you view as issues because you don't want to make choices, I simply see as consequences of the things that make this attractive to play because I do make the choices you avoid.

If only I could count how many times you make this claim against me and countless others lol, typical trolling tactics.

Lan Deathrider.5910 · June 5, 2020

@Besetment.9187 said:Its not a fake resource. You can replicate every aspect of the benchmark and the information to do so is in the log files in the video description.
Once you replicate the test setup, the only difference between you and [sC] is your execution/micromanagement, which is what these benchmarks are for. It is to establish a theoretical ceiling for a particular build and then use it to practice your execution.
Power Reaper has a lower ceiling than all the other meta dps builds but it also has one of the highest floors. Consistantly high average dps in practical, real world scenarios is easy to achieve on a Power Reaper, more so in sub optimal conditions. Its pretty great in fractal pugs and tends towards godliness the more hopelessly disorganized and incompetent your team is. Slow and steady, its the tortoise which beats all the hares that close their eyes long enough to make a mistake. There is a good reason why it is frequently noted as a strong off meta dps build.
For basically everything except high end speed clears, it is not unusual to see a Power Reaper top arcDPS when your Weaver is flinging their camera all over the place and rides the lightning off a cliff (not gonna lie, I've done it) or your Power Berserker doesn't have iron wrists + rhythm commensurate with a guitar hero world champion.

Can confirm. My wrists are stiff after a FotM run.

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Ceit.7619 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Ceit.7619 said:
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@Ceit.7619 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:Again, I'm just going to ask you ... why do you think this DPs difference exists? It's not a pure accident. There IS a point to being part of this discussion .... because it's not a foregone conclusion that the DPS difference is wrong.

In what way would necromancer having a viable dps spec (Say, 34kish. Not 36-40k like other classes who output that kind of damage AND provide utility) upset the game philosophy in any way? If the philosophy is "Anyone can beat the game playing how they want.", How does raising the floor hurt this concept?

It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.

I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

If you aren't against Necro getting a DPS boost, why do you magically end up on every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS?

Because every post that comments about necros being bad at DPS is doing so because of endgame team difficulties. That's not a necro DPS problem ... it CAN'T be because I don't have that problem and lots of other people don't have that problem. So why are people that CAN play necro different from people that CAN'T ... EVEN though we play the same class, maybe the same build and gear, etc ? It's NOT a class issue, it's not a game mechanics issue. ... it's a player issue, it's about how people make choices.

I'm not (and never have) had a problem with Anet buffing Necro DPS. DPS changes also never affected my endgame teaming ability ... because if you play how you want and team with people that also respect that ... it doesn't matter.

So your problem is... a semantics problem?

So you don't think the reason behind the request for more DPS is relevant? I'm going to argue that it's even MORE important than the request for DPS itself. Besides, a completely different discussion here is if more DPS is the answer to endgame teaming ... even you agree to some degree it's not. So let's just say that there are at least two problems with the reasoning here.

I mean, if it's not relevant, why do you guys appeal so hard to push for more DPS on such a faulty reason to being with? I have a problem with semantics? I don't think so. I have a problem with people asking Anet to remove their ability to choose so others can tell them how to play. That doesn't JUST affect them. It affects everyone.

Necromancers having lower end, but somewhat competitive dps would in no way effect your ability to choose who or how to play.

And likewise, Necromancers having lower end, but somewhat competitive dps would in no way enable players to get into teams with people that want optimal play either. You know what is funny about that? We already saw this happen a few times in the game history already and are we better off now for it? ... so this isn't some new idea that we have to try to see if it works ... we already know it doesn't.

There are two kinds of people here:

The people that think they can justify a DPS increase because of 'not getting teams' ... to which there is already a solution for that they simply choose to not use.

... and the people that think Anet will give them enough DPS to displace an already favoured Meta DPS class.

Which one are you? The fact is that you already acknowledged you don't entirely believe that DPS will get a meta spot for Necros .. I believe that because the amount of DPS increase power Reaper needs to compete, even at a 'lower end' is somewhere around a 15% increase across the board which is absolutely ridiculous ... so while you accuse me of just being here to make trouble, the truth is that you aren't any different because you know necro's aren't going to get enough DPS from a buff to displace a DPS meta class.

So where does that leave us? A bunch of clueless players that have DPS buffs that still can't get a team ... and a bunch of stubborn players that can't be bothered to choose teams better. Sounds like the exact same place we are now.

Methuselah.4376 · June 5, 2020

Love it when Obtena takes over a post :expressionless:

Dadnir.5038 · June 5, 2020

@"Obtena.7952" said:It wouldn't ... and I never said I was against Necro getting DPS either ... that's something you decide to keep throwing in my face.
I'm against the idea that Necro gets DPS just because people don't make good choices in who they team with.

You're probably aware that in a casual game like GW2 it's harder to find players that have the same mindset than you have than anything. It's even more the case when you have to find 9 such players for a raid team.

Often, people have a limited time to play (Because "Life") and thus look for the less straining way to enjoy the game. This lead them to simply not care about the mindset of their teammates and base their requirements on the cold objective truth of the numbers that are conveniently given through benchmarks realised by overachievers. And fact is that those numbers don't show any attractive side to the necromancer.

Worse than that, there is also the factor of "reputation" often bleeding from the PvP side and it's "slightly" warped perception of things, depicting the necromancer as the "noob" profession leading the average player to question whether or not it's a good idea to jeopardize it's playtime in a group that use a "noob" profession known to be "less" than the other professions in the content they target.

The average player want experienced players on the most effective known professions to team with them. The average player don't want to struggle, he just want to have fun. The average player want to be able to enter an effective team quickly and have a smooth sailing journey to it's "reward". The average player also have a lot of pride and thus is most likely to point out the shortcoming of other than it's own. A nice package and good advertisments often end up with better sales than an ugly one and unfortunately the necromancer's package is ugly and advertisment about the necromancer is less than savory, the "noob/easy" profession with below average performance isn't quite likely to fit the buying requirement of the average player.

There is two essential things to do to make the necromancer more attractive:

Make it's numbers more relevant to the content: Per se, the current design of the necromancer don't need buff to it's numbers, it need those numbers to have an equal impact to the impact of the numbers of it's peers. (Which is a thing that ANet never managed to achieve)
Change it's image: This is purely a player work there. We want the average Joe to stop calling the kettle black and look at the necromancer like a noob easy profession. We want people to lower a bit their pride in their "main". (Which is something that can't happen when numbers aren't up to par)

Axl.8924 · June 5, 2020

I got a question Why was the dps increased in pve? I thought pve raids were supposedly easy and blowing them up fairly fast? so why increase dps? why not decrease everyones dps to 35k maybe 34k?

Dadnir.5038 · June 5, 2020

@Axl.8924 said:I got a question Why was the dps increased in pve? I thought pve raids were supposedly easy and blowing them up fairly fast? so why increase dps? why not decrease everyones dps to 35k maybe 34k?

It's not deliberate dps increase it's just perverse consequences of ANet trying to make attractive some unattractive options.

Funky.4861 · June 5, 2020

Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)

Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.

If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).

Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Axl.8924 · June 5, 2020

@Funky.4861 said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

I personally got a counter to buffing: Nerf other classes down. If the encounters are supposedly too easy, then dps of everyone should be reduced to around 32-34k ish, instead of power creeping damage so much in pve, that we blow up pve raids and pve fractals.

Personally, I think reaper is already more balanced wise than others, so its time to nerf others down to reaper levels damage.

Funky.4861 · June 5, 2020

I don't mind nerfing other classes down a bit; it's all a bit 'e-peen' anyway because the timers on encounters allow for lowish dps (eg: 15k is fine providing you have enough ppl doing it). The issue then becomes one of low-manning encounters (which my static does, not through choice^^) as it's vital to pass dps checks to complete the encounter.

Astralporing.1957 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
I already answered that in my posts - If you haven't read it, short version is that i don't think Anet's reasons have anything to do with PvE balance at all, or overall design philosophy. The necro problem in PvE is simply a sideeffect of completely unrelated reasons.

Right, so fixing it because of PVE balance is a nonsense to do so.No. Balancing a class based on actual balancing factors is not a nonsense. Nonsense is doing that using

thematics

and performance in another content. I mean, if you ignore balance factors in PvE balancing, why do you even

have

PvE balance passes in the first place? And notice how that inconsistency only affects some classes, but not others, so it's not even like there's some underlying vision behind that, like you claim.

@"Astralporing.1957" said:Except the build you use, and how usefull it is compared to others (including in things like DPS)
is
something that affects your chance of getting teams and being succesful in endgame instanced content.

No it doesn't if you choose properly ... just like any other choices you have to make in this game. The decision to make a choice that leads to difficulty in getting a team doesn't mean Anet needs to change the class so it ranks higher on the meta. Just make better choices. Again, I have NEVER had a problem with this, so it's not that there is some game mechanic cause it ... it's the result of players and their choices....so, first you are saying that my choice doesn't affect my chance of getting teams and being succesful, and

then

you add a caveat "but only if you make a right choice". You do realize, that you're flat out contradicting yourself here. If i need to "choose properly", it means that the choice does matter.

I also have noticed, by the way, that your approach to balance problems for other classes (was it Berserker that i saw?) is completely different, and suddenly there your opinion on balance and how it matters changes 180 degrees. Is t because you simply do not play necro?

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Funky.4861 said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.

Sigmoid.7082 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Funky.4861 said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.

This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role.

It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec.

Astralporing.1957 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.That has nothing to do with understanding meta. That is just accepting that Anet is bad at balancing when it comes to PvE necro. Which, being a reasonable person, i do understand, and i don't really expect them to suddenly become better at it. I will still call them out on this, and i will still expect them to at least try to do better, because what is happening now is still bad balancing. Even if it's something you got used to expect.

The day i'll stop calling out devs on things i consider a mistake just because my expectations of them will get so low that i will no longer hope they will fix anything will be the day i will stop posting on this forum completely, and stop logging into the game at all. Because by that point i'd have lost all hope i still have for this game.

So, i won't accept your premise that asking for necromancer to be reasonably balanced in PvE is hopeless. Not yet, anyway.

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.So, i won't accept your premise that asking for necromancer to be reasonably balanced in PvE is hopeless. Not yet, anyway.

That's not my premise ... my premise is that if you don't want to have problems teaming with people in PVE ... make the right choices with who you team with.

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Funky.4861 said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.

This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role.

It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec.

Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed.

Sigmoid.7082 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Funky.4861 said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.

This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role.

It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec.

Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed.

Each spec has a design goal in mind? That's very clear to see.

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Funky.4861 said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.

This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role.

It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec.

Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed.

Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see.

That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity.

Besides, there aren't any black or white DPS specs in that case, so even though in theory it sounds nice with absolutely everything considered, we should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role ... in practical terms, we don't have that differentiation in roles. That's way too simple a model if you look at the complexity of how especs are assigned skills based on their theme.

Sure, at the simplest level, it's fair that one DPS class does the same performance as another, but there are a few things going on that adjust performance in this game:

The theme affects the skills of a class, not a pre-determined role
Other skills/features of a class affect performance and no one but Anet knows how they do that.

These things are obviously affecting the overall performance of a spec.

Astralporing.1957 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity.And yet Druid exists. Reasons for at least one Scourge dps nerf was based on it being considered by Anet a support spec. Reason why condi dmg build for reaper got nerfed into the ground was because condi dps didn't fit their vision for that espec role.But yeah, they don't balance with roles in mind at all.
Besides, there aren't any black or white DPS specs in that case,There are. Just look through the current and past metas, and you will find a handful of those.so even though in theory it sounds nice with absolutely everything considered, we should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role ... in practical terms, we don't have that differentiation in roles.So, there's no practical difference between power reaper dps spec and a power chrono?...i think i can see the problem. If you don't see a practical difference between two dps specs, one of which can output up to 10k more dps (so, an increase of 33%) than the other, there's no point of even discussing balance problems with you. Because you will be unable to see them anyway.

Sigmoid.7082 · June 5, 2020

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@"Funky.4861" said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.

Yes, I would be beneficial to buff necro in this way because anyone that understands meta and who is reasonable understands that Necro isn't going to get a 15-20% flat DPS increase to compete with established DPS meta classes to being with.

This depends on what the designed role of the spec is supposed to be. If its supposed to be a DPS spec then its performance, with absolutely everything considered, should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role.

It also has to remain within the scope and thematic of the class or direction Anet want to take it via and elite spec.

Except when have you known Anet to assign roles to specs? That approach doesn't work in this game. It's not how content is designed.

Each spec has a design goal on mind? That's very clear to see.

That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity.

Its not really that different. Its pretty much arguing semantics. Enabling something that was previously not that possible or prevalent on a spec is no less different than saying this spec is supposed to be played as X/Y/Z. Players can, and will, play the spec how the current meta and game design allows in a fashion for some form of being acceptable / "viable" but this doesn't detract from the specific goals of the specs design. Neither should the possible multiple role scopes of the specs. Just because there is a lot of grey doesn't mean that one of the assigned roles, by design, of something isn't there. I.e scourge by design is supposed to fit into a support role as one of its scopes.

Things are grey but I don't think they are as grey as you think they are.

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Astralporing.1957 said:
@"Obtena.7952" said:That doesn't answer my question. Anet doesn't assign roles to specs. They give skills to themes applied to them. That's a very different approach to class design that allows quite a large area of grey in what 'role' something has in a game with no holy trinity.And yet Druid exists. Reasons for at least one Scourge dps nerf was based on it being considered by Anet a support spec. Reason why condi dmg build for reaper got nerfed into the ground was because condi dps didn't fit their vision for that espec role.But yeah, they don't balance with roles in mind at all.Druid existing doesn't change what I said ...
Besides, there aren't any black or white DPS specs in that case,There are. Just look through the current and past metas, and you will find a handful of those.so even though in theory it sounds nice with absolutely everything considered, we should be around the same total power level as others who are designed to be in the same role ... in practical terms, we don't have that differentiation in roles.So, there's no practical difference between power reaper dps spec and a power chrono?...i think i can see the problem. If you don't see a practical difference between two dps specs, one of which can output up to 10k more dps (so, an increase of 33%) than the other, there's no point of even discussing balance problems with you. Because you will be unable to see them anyway.

That's not true ... the practical difference is that the performance of those specs are MORE than just the measure of their DPS ... because saying the are 'dps specs' doesn't accurately represent the sum of what those specs can do. Labeling a spec as "DPS" is just a massive simplification ... and your taking advantage of that simplification to justify your desire for more DPS.

Obtena.7952 · June 5, 2020

@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Sigmoid.7082 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@"Funky.4861" said:Well, having read three pages of 'discussion' i thought i'd add my tuppence :)
Correct me if i'm wrong, but the OP sees a massive difference in dps between classes for pve instanced content and assumes that the desirability of a class depends on what they bring to the table in terms of a combination of dps, healing, and party-wide buffs (like banners or assassins' presence). Noting that necro is at the bottom of the dps charts, the solution appears to be to buff dps to increase desirability, because necro cannot compete with say SB/Temp/firebrigade regarding group utility.
If necro dps is buffed, it has to compete with other dps classes (noting that some benchmarks depend on the class having buffs and/or the target having conditions, eg: power chrono relies on high slow uptime).
Would it perhaps be beneficial to buff necro in other ways, for example manifest sand shade grants quickness, or entering reaper shroud gives alacrity, exiting death shroud heals and rips/converts a boon? I love my necro, but being told by my raid static that i did good on it because of epi timings feels kinda bad.