The correct way to rework mirage.

mortrialus.3062 · July 18, 2020

@Yasai.3549 said:Mirage should be reduced to 2 clones max and IH made baseline.
2 Dodges can return, and Mirage Cloak is fine for the most part, but the traits that make Mirage Cloak extremely powerful should be adjusted or nerfed (Stuff like Mirage Mantle which gives Protect after Mirage Cloak wears off and Sand Shards which deals Bleed in AoE on Mirage Cloak)

Whatever we do with Mirage I don't think we want something that will just completely disincentive shattering entirely the way reducing the clone cap would.

Yasai.3549 · July 18, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:
Whatever we do with Mirage I don't think we want something that will just completely disincentive shattering entirely the way reducing the clone cap would.

That's extremely cute because currently with IH Condi builds, all incentive to shattering basically doesn't exist and even if yu wanted to use Cry for more Condi, yu have to follow up with more clone generation in order to make up for the DPS yu would be losing from shattering those clones.

Clones are more valuable for applying and sustaining Condi than to Shatter with.

whoknocks.4935 · July 18, 2020

@mortrialus.3062 said:
@whoknocks.4935 said:My rework is simple.
-Mirage gets back 2 dodges.
-Dodge doesn't apply Mirage Cloak anymore, so you cannot use dodge while CC.
Replace F4 Distortion with Mirage Cloak.Instead of using dodge to proc Mirage Cloak for ambush and traits, you now have it on the F4 maybe with a 15-20 seconds cooldown, you press F4 and you gain Mirage Cloak and that's it.
Same as Chrono have Contiuum Split and lost Distortion.
You rework is more complex than searching for the proof of God's existence.
Keep it simple.

Mirage Cloak would need to have a 9.25 second cooldown on this system maintain similar levels of evade frames that distortion provides.

Possible but that is maybe equivalent of having 3 dodges if you consider dodge cooldown too, in the beginning i wanted say 10-15 seconds cooldown to put it on par of common professions main skills (shroud, soulbeast merge, photon forge mode, avatar etc,). But yeah without testing it you don't know how it could actually be too overturned or not, that's the problem with balance team, they make changes without testing them and so everything results always in an ultra nerf or ultra buff.

But you think my idea could work?I think it's on line with the changes anet would make, it loses distortion on f4 and get mirage cloak in it. Simple but effective.

bravan.3876 · July 18, 2020

@Daishi.6027 said:-Restore second evade.
-Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

That would kill some active outplay options from sword where you want to get a daze at specific times without the mesmer needs to leap and change position himself, for example dodging with a sword clone up after swaping to gs for a gs2 burst into the clone daze. Those are skillful combos have counterplay. Deleting those options would lower the skill ceiling from sword mirage.It is also an unnecessary change when you make also condi clone ambushes more about utility effects and not dmg (what they should have been since pof release anyway, similar to what i want for ranger pets), means a mirage who dodges some follow up while being stunned cannot counterburst with clone dmg anymore anyway.

Leonidrex.5649 · July 18, 2020

@Yasai.3549 said:Mirage should be reduced to 2 clones max and IH made baseline.
2 Dodges can return, and Mirage Cloak is fine for the most part, but the traits that make Mirage Cloak extremely powerful should be adjusted or nerfed (Stuff like Mirage Mantle which gives Protect after Mirage Cloak wears off and Sand Shards which deals Bleed in AoE on Mirage Cloak)

educate yourself before posting.protection at the end of mirage cloak is worse version of ranger skill that gives 2s instead of 1,5s on top of giving it to pet.and sand shards no longer does bleeding in aoe since July 16, 2019. dont comment on things you dont understand

Leonidrex.5649 · July 18, 2020

@bravan.3876 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:-Restore second evade.
-Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

That would kill some active outplay options from sword where you want to get a daze at specific times without the mesmer needs to leap and change position himself, for example dodging with a sword clone up after swaping to gs for a gs2 burst into the clone daze. Those are skillful combos have counterplay. Deleting those options would lower the skill ceiling from sword mirage.It is also an unnecessary change when you make also condi clone ambushes more about utility effects and not dmg (what they should have been since pof release anyway, similar to what i want for ranger pets), means a mirage who dodges some follow up while being stunned cannot counterburst with clone dmg anymore anyway.

removing 1 specific combo from unplayable build is a small price to pay, not to mention you can trigger ambush and cancel it with weapon swap to do the combo, or simply trigger gs ambush and then do the gs combo. awkward but doable

bravan.3876 · July 18, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:-Restore second evade.
-Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

That would kill some active outplay options from sword where you want to get a daze at specific times without the mesmer needs to leap and change position himself, for example dodging with a sword clone up after swaping to gs for a gs2 burst into the clone daze. Those are skillful combos have counterplay. Deleting those options would lower the skill ceiling from sword mirage.It is also an unnecessary change when you make also condi clone ambushes more about utility effects and not dmg (what they should have been since pof release anyway, similar to what i want for ranger pets), means a mirage who dodges some follow up while being stunned cannot counterburst with clone dmg anymore anyway.

removing 1 specific combo from unplayable build is a small price to pay, not to mention you can trigger ambush and cancel it with weapon swap to do the combo, or simply trigger gs ambush and then do the gs combo. awkward but doable

It is not only this one combo, it was just one example. You are the Mesmer main you should know about how to play Powermirage near its pretty high skill cap more than me.And what you say is not a solution considering how telegraphed and slow the gs2 combo already is, sword ambush also is not stowable after it started and starting gs ambush then stow before going for the gs2 burst will most likely not even be enough time to hit gs2 near the daze from the clone leap, not to mention that even my 90 years old grandma would dodge or simply outrun that. I also disagree to how much value you give to those combos. Deleting them is a big price considering we want a more skillbased game and not a less skillful game. Also as mentioned it is unnecessary when clone ambushes are more about utility instead dmg what they should be anyway for other reasons too. Dumbing down Powermirage to nerf the power lvl from condi ih without even adding skill ceiling to condi ih mechanic is not a good option and exactly the same what we have with the one dodge nerf. Just because you are not able to play Powermirage near its skill cap (and probably are afraid that condi ih Mirage gets a higher skill floor/ ceiling too) doesn't mean it is something this game should delete to become even more noobfriendly.

Leonidrex.5649 · July 18, 2020

@bravan.3876 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:-Restore second evade.
-Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

That would kill some active outplay options from sword where you want to get a daze at specific times without the mesmer needs to leap and change position himself, for example dodging with a sword clone up after swaping to gs for a gs2 burst into the clone daze. Those are skillful combos have counterplay. Deleting those options would lower the skill ceiling from sword mirage.It is also an unnecessary change when you make also condi clone ambushes more about utility effects and not dmg (what they should have been since pof release anyway, similar to what i want for ranger pets), means a mirage who dodges some follow up while being stunned cannot counterburst with clone dmg anymore anyway.

removing 1 specific combo from unplayable build is a small price to pay, not to mention you can trigger ambush and cancel it with weapon swap to do the combo, or simply trigger gs ambush and then do the gs combo. awkward but doable

It is not only this one combo, it was just one example. You are the Mesmer main you should know about how to play Powermirage near its pretty high skill cap more than me.And what you say is not a solution considering how telegraphed and slow the gs2 combo already is, sword ambush also is not stowable after it started and starting gs ambush then stow before going for the gs2 burst will most likely not even be enough time to hit gs2 near the daze from the clone leap, not to mention that even my 90 years old grandma would dodge or simply outrun that. I also disagree to how much value you give to those combos. Deleting them is a big price considering we want a more skillbased game and not a less skillful game. Also as mentioned it is unnecessary when clone ambushes are more about utility instead dmg what they should be anyway for other reasons too. Dumbing down Powermirage to nerf the power lvl from condi ih without even adding skill ceiling to condi ih mechanic is not a good option and exactly the same what we have with the one dodge nerf. Just because you are not able to play Powermirage near its skill cap (and probably are afraid that condi ih Mirage gets a higher skill floor/ ceiling too) doesn't mean it is something this game should delete to become even more noobfriendly.

I dont mean stowing, I mean weapon swapping, depending how IH is coded it could trigger the moment you start casting, so you could instantly weaponswap.making combo take extra 0,05s or 0,1s would make a difference but as it is right now the build is not good anyways, might as well make it better.AND if it gains sustain damage it might not be forced into one trick pony bursts it has and be able to actually chew through peoples hp piece by piece instead of doing only predictable bursts. And at this point the burst could be left even more predictable and be a thing you use against enemy that you KNOW has nothing left to defend himself, its what you do 50% of the times now anyways

bravan.3876 · July 18, 2020

@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Leonidrex.5649 said:
@bravan.3876 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:-Restore second evade.
-Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

That would kill some active outplay options from sword where you want to get a daze at specific times without the mesmer needs to leap and change position himself, for example dodging with a sword clone up after swaping to gs for a gs2 burst into the clone daze. Those are skillful combos have counterplay. Deleting those options would lower the skill ceiling from sword mirage.It is also an unnecessary change when you make also condi clone ambushes more about utility effects and not dmg (what they should have been since pof release anyway, similar to what i want for ranger pets), means a mirage who dodges some follow up while being stunned cannot counterburst with clone dmg anymore anyway.

removing 1 specific combo from unplayable build is a small price to pay, not to mention you can trigger ambush and cancel it with weapon swap to do the combo, or simply trigger gs ambush and then do the gs combo. awkward but doable

It is not only this one combo, it was just one example. You are the Mesmer main you should know about how to play Powermirage near its pretty high skill cap more than me.And what you say is not a solution considering how telegraphed and slow the gs2 combo already is, sword ambush also is not stowable after it started and starting gs ambush then stow before going for the gs2 burst will most likely not even be enough time to hit gs2 near the daze from the clone leap, not to mention that even my 90 years old grandma would dodge or simply outrun that. I also disagree to how much value you give to those combos. Deleting them is a big price considering we want a more skillbased game and not a less skillful game. Also as mentioned it is unnecessary when clone ambushes are more about utility instead dmg what they should be anyway for other reasons too. Dumbing down Powermirage to nerf the power lvl from condi ih without even adding skill ceiling to condi ih mechanic is not a good option and exactly the same what we have with the one dodge nerf. Just because you are not able to play Powermirage near its skill cap (and probably are afraid that condi ih Mirage gets a higher skill floor/ ceiling too) doesn't mean it is something this game should delete to become even more noobfriendly.

I dont mean stowing, I mean weapon swapping, depending how IH is coded it could trigger the moment you start casting, so you could instantly weaponswap.making combo take extra 0,05s or 0,1s would make a difference but as it is right now the build is not good anyways, might as well make it better.AND if it gains sustain damage it might not be forced into one trick pony bursts it has and be able to actually chew through peoples hp piece by piece instead of doing only predictable bursts. And at this point the burst could be left even more predictable and be a thing you use against enemy that you KNOW has nothing left to defend himself, its what you do 50% of the times now anyways

Even on weaponswap it does a big part of the leap animation and locks you into that. Anyway as said, it is not necessary to change ih that way when you make clone ambushes mainly about buff/debuff or utility condi effects and not dmg, how it should be for other reasons anyway (to create higher opportunity costs and harder decision making in dodge management for example to balance out mc). That already prevents Condimirage from being able to counterburst with clones while being stunned itself. Dumbing down Powermirage to deal with Condimirage problems in a way that doesn't even add skill ceiling to Condimirage either is a bad way. Even more when you have better ways available. If a build is playable for you or not also is not a valid argument in balance discussions. In particular since Powermirage has a good chance to be playable again for more than 1-2 player when getting 2 dodges back. Same for Condimirage.

Daishi.6027 · July 18, 2020

@bravan.3876 said:
@"Daishi.6027" said:-Restore second evade.
-Change Infinite horizion clone ambushes to trigger when the Mirage actives their ambush themselves.

That would kill some active outplay options from sword where you want to get a daze at specific times without the mesmer needs to leap and change position himself, for example dodging with a sword clone up after swaping to gs for a gs2 burst into the clone daze. Those are skillful combos have counterplay. Deleting those options would lower the skill ceiling from sword mirage.It is also an unnecessary change when you make also condi clone ambushes more about utility effects and not dmg (what they should have been since pof release anyway, similar to what i want for ranger pets), means a mirage who dodges some follow up while being stunned cannot counterburst with clone dmg anymore anyway.

I realize this, but I also think the game is healthier as a whole this way. I am a power mirage main and it's the most fun I've ever had in this game since release, but I want real balance that considers other classes and builds not just buffs to my class. Us missing out on combos like this while also increasing over all frequency I think gives it a fair trade off. On the balance end, please keep in mind utility is still a powerful tool, particularly dazes; I think the inability for clones to ambush (by the main mes not being able to commit to it) while stunned does necessitate this kind of change, particularly when it takes away synergies like proccing power block while stunned.

Yes "damage" while stunned particularly from condi was far more egregious, but I think preserving this just creates a similar problem that put mirage in this nerf wave mess to begin with, just to a slightly lesser degree. Say my suggestion for changes went through and scepter or axe was to set up a large hit, if they are neatly stacked with vulnerability and weakness, so that when mirage cloak ends you have protection and are ready to burst; I don't think that is particularly fair after already dodging their attack while stunned. Now most people debate about the "dodging while stunned" which I think is a big boon, but isn't that big a boon considering mesmer's design and player complaints go into a lot of hyperbole. However, the interchangeable play between players is important to preserve; being able to evade while stunned alone is enough, and despite what other people argue isn't to big of a deal. (Since even in the early days of PoF people were timing their attacks for the end of the dodge/ mirage cloak and players only screwed up because they were syncing to normal evade timings.) The way I see it, what creates more of a problem is giving illusions a substantial, on demand action while stunned, even if it's not damage. I think that matters more than combos.

Besides you'll still get dazes to accompany a split surge, that isn't as good as a shatter setup, and that may change both the skill floor and ceiling; but after the damage changes split surge is a comparably reasonable spike in PvP, and given the increased on demand frequency (as I suggested with the changes to mirage mirrors) I think that is a fair and reasonable change in exchange for also being a shatter set up option, when it fulfills a greater purpose of balance.

If you want to discuss the other combos list your grievances and we can talk about them too. But I truly think this is healthier over all.

bravan.3876 · July 18, 2020

@Daishi.6027 said:I get your points but i still think the deletion of skill ceiling doesn't worth it.

Yes ofc getting a clone daze after a dodge is an additional defensive effect, but you have to trait into that (atm even a major gm trait). Instead you could just give a trait that gives a short thoughness buff after each dodge, or gives prot or aegis or a trait that in general buffs your stat sustain, so you can just facetank the skill that would be delayed by a clone daze. We have those kind of traits also on other classes (look a Warrior even gets rewarded for eating a cc with high thoughness bonus for quite some time), they are even more passive and with even less counterplay.

Also you forget, that Mesmer has pretty high downsides for being forced to have illusions up for offensive and defensive plays. Often those costs (double opportunity of interrupting Mesmers abilities before the reward from the illusion procs, cleave of illusions before they can do anything etc) overshine the good effects of having npcs around (confusion from clones, bodyblock ability etc). And having clones and phantasms who are out being independent from cc that is on the Mesmer is like a basic mechanic.It also means you can interrupt Mesmer actions twice. You can interrupt the illusion generating skill on the Mesmer or when you fail that you can also interrupt (or cleave) the illusion itself. No other class can be interrupted twice from opponents before the reward of the skill even procs. No other classes weapon skills can be countered by cleaving npcs before they do anything. Also you forget, that IH is already the worst dodge trait in the game. The Mesmer either needs to generate clones with other skills before dodging to even have an effect from IH with each dodge, or they have to use another trait (DE) to make sure each dodge gets the traited value from IH. No other class needs 2 traits to have a reward on each dodge from their dodge trait. That is why i think it is kind of balanced to allow Mesmers to have utility effects on clones also working when the Meswmer itself is stunned. It already has several trade offs. You will just add another one which also kills skill ceiling in addition.

The only thing that needs to be avoided is, that this illusion generated dodge reward during stun doesn't become too strong and doesn't neutralize the applied cc to the Mesmer completely (like a stunbreak on dodge would do). Means yes, a blind on dodge, a short immob, a short daze on clone ambushes (i mean it is a 1/4 sec daze it is laughable, the interrupt you can avoid by stabi, aegis etc or just not casting until the clone dazed you. Means Powerblock is rly no argument here, it is no problem to avoid getting interrupted by any sword clone when Mesmer dodges. It is simply a missplay from the opponent when you get interrupted by that slow and well animated leap animation. For example a Warrior will still get plenty hits on the Mesmer out of his 2 secs stun, around 1 sec he can just fully dmg the Mirage and even when not, the offensive power of the Mirage and its ability to move out of danger zone are still neutralized by the hard cc, so there is still value of hitting the cc and there is still a skill ceiling and a reward for the Mirage to dodge the cc itself).

Means: Ofc a Condimirage that can dodge while stunned and avoid some follow up (and IH will just increase the delay for the opponent to hit the Mesmer, in case of daze or blind) is kind of ok in terms of balance, but not that he also barely has costs in his offensive power by being able to counterburst with high condi or power dmg pressure from clones during being stunned. Also: When you make condi ambushes equally to power ambushes, means more utility based and with creating the incentive/ need to dodge also pure offensive then the Mirage will not have that much dodges left to dodge while being cced in the first place.

Means you limit the mc power in 2 ways with the condi ambush rework already (no counterburst dmg on clone ambushes anymore + less defensive dodges from the need to dodge offensive also on Condimirage), there is no need for more restrictions to IH as one of the weakest dodge traits in the game due to Mesmers class mechanic, what then also kills skill ceiling instead adding it, slows down the gameplay and makes it more clunky. Don't forget that you have to invest a whole traitline to get access to mc.

Just my 2 cents.

jsp.6912 · July 19, 2020

mirage is an aberration of gw2 (like deadeye as exemple but it's bad so it's ok) , i rather it's trash tier and they work for chrono or mesmer core become better

Aihao.5824 · July 20, 2020

the fact that bots running mirage tells a lot how skillful is this class.

Zawn.9647 · August 10, 2020

@otto.5684 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:
@Daishi.6027 said:
@mortrialus.3062 said:Frankly, I always thought Mirage's focused on accenting the profession's capacity to be a mobile, evasive, condition skirmisher the obvious draw back should be towards Mirage should be a serious vitality penalty. You'd become as evasive as a thief, but you'd have their same health pool so that if you screw up on a mirage it's significantly more punishing.
It's more in line with the philosophy of the elite spec while providing very clear tangible weakness. It even fits thematically because as a Mirage you have the capacity to be come intangible, but you're less stable when attacks do land.

I would 10,000x be down for that were they to give mirage the thieves level of on demand access to evades.

Having draw backs or trade offs doesn't NECESSARILY mean screwing with the profession mechanic. I've never agreed with Arenanet's approach to this at all. I've thought just in terms of how laser focused the spec is, Druid never really needed a real trade off due to the fact that taking Druid means you will NEVER do as much damage as a core ranger, let alone Soulbeast. Taking druid already has strengths and weaknesses just due to the nature of their traits and skills and unique weapon. The main problem with Druid wasn't a lack of trade off but how it is both terrible at actually supporting other players in PvP and also GW2's inherent problem where anything that heals others a lot becomes an absurdly resilient bunker as opposed to a squishy healer who can keep the team alive but is susceptible to being focused like how healers work in other games.

Another one for example is I've always believed Holosmith should have some sort of healing penalty due to how the elite spec is designed around being a higher risk+higher reward super DPS augment to core engineer. Very high and easy damage, but you

need

to land it correctly and avoid counterattacks properly because you just wouldn't have the sustain of a core engineer, let alone a scrapper.

You can build in strengths and weaknesses to the elite specs without having to gut the class mechanic entirely. Sometimes the elite spec altering the profession mechanic is the right thing to do, sometimes it's not. That's always been my philosophy.

If the capabilities of a core profession look like this;

Elite specs should in turn be altering the profession like this.

I really wish Anet understood this. Having a mechanic that is different does not create a "trade-off." And you also could have a trade-off without changing any mechanics.The result of the implementing trade-off has to match-up with the goal of it, and they rarely do. I personally view the trade-off balance talk as nothing more than a publicity stunt. There might be a grandiose idea of how things should work, but in reality, it never does, cuz Anet devs do not think things through.

what do you mean? the graph displays a clear tradeoff... you're trading off some mobility+defense for damage/range... :)

Leonidrex.5649 · August 10, 2020

@jsp.6912 said:mirage is an aberration of gw2 (like deadeye as exemple but it's bad so it's ok) , i rather it's trash tier and they work for chrono or mesmer core become better