A guard review on guard buffs

[aelska.4609]

[some firebrand changes + WvW changes]

Not willing to discuss those, as i'm unqualified to do so

Shouts buffs

"Feel My Wrath!": Reduced recharge from 35 seconds to 30 seconds. This skill now grants 6 seconds of quickness to the guardian and 3 seconds to other nearby allies. It previously granted 5 seconds of quickness to all affected characters.

Why not. It is always a bit odd to see a shout not having a full party support, but I guess this change was driven by PvE. I have never seen this shout being taken in PvP as Renewed Focus brings way more, this small modification will not change it.

"Hold the Line": Reduced cooldown from 30 seconds to 25 seconds.

It could be 10s cooldown that it will still not be a solid option. Protection on an utility slot is an outdated design, your teammates probably already have that boon or better defensive options.

"Retreat!": This skill now uses ammunition with 5 seconds between activations and a 30-second count recharge.

A bit better, double aegis can really be a life saver. But taking an utility slot for swiftness is so laughable in 2020. The 5s between activations is hardly justified. I wish this skill could be reworked to be a valid defensive (like blocks N next attacks) or mobility option (like Superspeed for X seconds) with a balanced cooldown.

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Overall the shouts buffs are meaningless. The teammates probably already have the boons you want to apply. They still suffer from the same flaws: they do not provide any efficient defensive/mobility/anti-CC abilities. They do not cleanse conditions (1 ... if you take a grandmaster trait) to be meaningful. They are stucked in 2012 and any cooldown change will not make them any better.

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Meditation buffs

Judge's Intervention: Reduced cooldown from 45 seconds to 40 seconds.

One good example on an unecessary change. This skill is powerful and justified the high cooldown, it was already a very popular option yet nobody complained about it because it was what it is: balanced. Lowering the CD by 5s is not much but do not do it any further, JI on a 25s CD is definitely an open door to spam gameplay. There are other ways to give mobility to guards.

Litany of Wrath: Increased damage to healing conversion from 25% to 33%.

It is nice to have but do not make this heal option any more or less viable. Reason being that guards rely more on the combo "Monk's Focus" (1470 heal) + "Smiter's Boon" (1470 heal) + litany of wrath base heal (1640 heal) to heal their 11645 hp, instead of the damage to healing conversion. Outcoming damage to heal is clunky in pvp and does not bring much: what will the opponent do to counter it ? Avoid getting hit ? That's already what he was doing.

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These changes are unnecessary, as they bring nothing new to already popular and balanced utilities.

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Weapon buffs

Leap of Faith: Increased base healing from 234 to 1,053 in PvP and WvW.

No one asked for healing at first place, but at least now it is significant. I'd still use this skill for mobility more than as dps/healing thing, but I guess it's nice to have.

Mighty Blow: Reduced cooldown from 10 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW.Glacial Blow: Reduced cooldown from 10 seconds to 8 seconds in PvP and WvW.

I kinda liked the cooldown matching the dodge regeneration one, as it was promoting more tactical gameplay. Hammer #2 is already the sole reason to take hammer (alongside with #5), buffing it further just accentuates the cheese side. Hammer buffs should go through a rework of the #1 (AA), #3 (Zealot's embrace) and #4 (Banish) skills, not the ones that are already working.

Whirling Wrath: Increased melee strike power coefficient from 0.3 to 0.4 in PvP and WvW. Reduced projectile power coefficient from 0.25 to 0.1 in PvP and WvW.

Damage on GS #2 was already fine but hard to land because of the reduced mobility while casting it. This change makes it way more cheese, as it's basically "if it hits it will hit like a truck, but it won't probably hit". There are way healthier way of buffing it.

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It is hard to know why Anet decided to buff the already strong offensive weapon skills.

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Final words

I do think these buffs are completely off-target. It is difficult to understand the reason behind these changes in PvP; as guards need more quality of life improvements than buffs. So many weapon bugs are unresolved (gs #2 doing the animation but not the damage, mighty blow #2 not hitting vertically, gs and torch #5 not randomly missing, ...), and others could be improved (sword #3 not rooting, gs #2 on normal movement speed, hammer #2 not going on full cooldown if voluntarily interrupted, ...).Core virtues should be more impactful (with an adapted cooldown), while trait tree should be reorganized. Lesser used utilities (signets/shouts/spirit weapons/consecrations) will need a more serious rework than cooldown adjustments to bring them in line with nowadays game. Condition pressure, CCs and mobility are very present today, these utilities cannot find their way out if they don't answer efficiently to these.

As a conclusion, I'd rather have no patch than this one, as the changes are unconsistent and unnecessary. Guard flaws are obvious when you start playing them, and this patch does not solve them at all. This class is often refered as "noob friendly" thanks to few very strongs options (big symbols on condibunker, gs or hammer #2 on dps), etc. that are on the cheese side. That makes guard outrageously powerful in the hands of inexperienced players, while playing it in higher levels requires a flawless gameplay with sometimes disappointing results. Buffing these strong options can only worsen the problem; and that's exactly what this patch has done.

[Rukia.4802]

I always felt like gs2 needed a rework, it feels horrendous to land in any game mode, its radius feels like less than melee lul.

I feel you on those weapon glitches, guards have a lot, basically on every skill. Hammer is 1 trick pony, awful weapon. But any class in this game has those issues because in GW2 your abilities can fail or miss at random, the engine is very clunky.

As usual, Anet do not address anything that matters, but who even cares anymore lol I was just surprised to see a legit post.

[Shiyo.3578]

Guardian is too squishy and immobile. It's an anomaly of design, when you have classes like holosmith that are insanely tanky AND mobile, or thief which has a ton of evades and mobility. If a class is going to be as immobile as guardian, it should be a brick wall.

[otto.5684]

Ya these are buffs and yet they are useless.

Retreat is not worthy a utility slot, even if it’s CD and ammo recharge is much lower. Hold the line, is garbage shout. CD is not the issue. Shouts, as a whole, do not work in sPvP cuz taking them means you need to take honor, and the buff trait is weak. Not enough boon removal and you lose access to much more, since you will have to take this over mediation. If you are running FB you will stick to mantras and maybe CoF. I still would not consider any of the shouts or the honor trait. This is another example though the years of Anet realizing something is not working and doing a random pointless buff, where the skill still remains not working. Seriously, have an interim go to GW2 meta so he can tell you the possible fucking sPvP builds so you don’t do this random shit.

Hammer is a garbage weapon. Not much else to be said. Not one should ever use it on guardian. GS skill 2 change is good, but still no where close to enough to make the weapon useable. The only build that can effectively use GS is core and core has no CC. GS only worked when damage levels where very high, which made it useable without CC, since it acted as a deterrent. At the current abysmal damage output and the fact that guardian cannot use berserker amulet, this does not matter. Anet, GS 3 is almost exclusively used in sPvP to leap out of combat. Why this skill ever had healing to being with never made any fucking sense. Buffing the healing is doubling down on idiocy.

I don’t get the JI change. I personally never was a fan of this skill, but no one ever thought this skill is lacking CD.

Anyway, no one in there right mind should use core, shouts, GS or hammer. I will be nice for once and tell you what needs to change.

Core needs more damage, either it is on traits or on the weapons themselves.

Hammer has literally no damage, except for one skill, which does not deal that much damage, highly telegraphed and has an 8 secs CD. Also, hammer CCs do not work in sPvP. Way too slow.

GS needs damage on both AA and GS2. GS only ever worked when it is a deterrent though damage. Guardian lacks the mobility and CC, so the weapon has to hit like a truck, otherwise you will be run over.

Now, someone who does not play, or understand guardian, like sPvP devs maybe asking: “why not use DH with melee weapons, it has the mobility and CC.” It does but not the damage. Power damage is reliant on radiance. Using radiance and retaliation. Virtues generate retaliation (or zeal if you like to live on the edge). DH does not, so it is not an option. Also, virtues in now an absolute must, since it is the only stability option. Now more than ever, power builds must use virtues.

For shouts, Core guardian is married to mediations due to the heal, boons, condi removal and heal skill. Honor + mediations = no damage. Without healing power honor is terrible choice, and you do not have any stats space to use heal power. All shouts are currently weak to be with utility slot. The condi removal is extremely weak, 1 on each use. LoW is like an order of magnitude better heal than receive the light.

[Bazsi.2734]

I mostly agree with OP, but after having some "fun" in unranked with the newly buffed skills, I must add my own insight and commentary.I think sharing my perspective would really help further development of this class, not to mention improve the ways others can experience it. So after careful deliberation, my thoughts condensed down to their very essence trying to grip what this class is really about:

Mediguard goes brrrrrrr!

[ollbirtan.2915]

@otto.5684 said:Ya these are buffs and yet they are useless.

Retreat is not worthy a utility slot, even if it’s CD and ammo recharge is much lower. Hold the line, is garbage shout. CD is not the issue. Shouts, as a whole, do not work in sPvP cuz taking them means you need to take honor, and the buff trait is weak. Not enough boon removal and you lose access to much more, since you will have to take this over mediation. If you are running FB you will stick to mantras and maybe CoF. I still would not consider any of the shouts or the honor trait. This is another example though the years of Anet realizing something is not working and doing a random pointless buff, where the skill still remains not working. Seriously, have an interim go to GW2 meta so he can tell you the possible kitten sPvP builds so you don’t do this random kitten.

Hammer is a garbage weapon. Not much else to be said. Not one should ever use it on guardian. GS skill 2 change is good, but still no where close to enough to make the weapon useable. The only build that can effectively use GS is core and core has no CC. GS only worked when damage levels where very high, which made it useable without CC, since it acted as a deterrent. At the current abysmal damage output and the fact that guardian cannot use berserker amulet, this does not matter. Anet, GS 3 is almost exclusively used in sPvP to leap out of combat. Why this skill ever had healing to being with never made any kitten sense. Buffing the healing is doubling down on idiocy.

I don’t get the JI change. I personally never was a fan of this skill, but no one ever thought this skill is lacking CD.

Anyway, no one in there right mind should use core, shouts, GS or hammer. I will be nice for once and tell you what needs to change.

Core needs more damage, either it is on traits or on the weapons themselves.

Hammer has literally no damage, except for one skill, which does not deal that much damage, highly telegraphed and has an 8 secs CD. Also, hammer CCs do not work in sPvP. Way too slow.

GS needs damage on both AA and GS2. GS only ever worked when it is a deterrent though damage. Guardian lacks the mobility and CC, so the weapon has to hit like a truck, otherwise you will be run over.

Now, someone who does not play, or understand guardian, like sPvP devs maybe asking: “why not use DH with melee weapons, it has the mobility and CC.” It does but not the damage. Power damage is reliant on radiance. Using radiance and retaliation. Virtues generate retaliation (or zeal if you like to live on the edge). DH does not, so it is not an option. Also, virtues in now an absolute must, since it is the only stability option. Now more than ever, power builds must use virtues.

For shouts, Core guardian is married to mediations due to the heal, boons, condi removal and heal skill. Honor + mediations = no damage. Without healing power honor is terrible choice, and you do not have any stats space to use heal power. All shouts are currently weak to be with utility slot. The condi removal is extremely weak, 1 on each use. LoW is like an order of magnitude better heal than receive the light.

While I agree with all your points about the 'buffs' to guardian which are kitten random and useless, I'm also perplexed by your and many other players' unhealthy fixation on POWER ONLY HUR DUR mindset. Not all core / dh / fbs play power, and condi is more than viable.

[Rukia.4802]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:While I agree with all your points about the 'buffs' to guardian which are kitten random and useless, I'm also perplexed by your and many other players' unhealthy fixation on POWER ONLY HUR DUR mindset. Not all core / dh / fbs play power, and condi is more than viable.

Hm idk maybe cuz people want to play power instead of hurr durr condi toxic garbage. Instead you should be asking what is ANets unhealthy fixation on condi?

[otto.5684]

@ollbirtan.2915 said:

@otto.5684 said:Ya these are buffs and yet they are useless.

Retreat is not worthy a utility slot, even if it’s CD and ammo recharge is much lower. Hold the line, is garbage shout. CD is not the issue. Shouts, as a whole, do not work in sPvP cuz taking them means you need to take honor, and the buff trait is weak. Not enough boon removal and you lose access to much more, since you will have to take this over mediation. If you are running FB you will stick to mantras and maybe CoF. I still would not consider any of the shouts or the honor trait. This is another example though the years of Anet realizing something is not working and doing a random pointless buff, where the skill still remains not working. Seriously, have an interim go to GW2 meta so he can tell you the possible kitten sPvP builds so you don’t do this random kitten.

Hammer is a garbage weapon. Not much else to be said. Not one should ever use it on guardian. GS skill 2 change is good, but still no where close to enough to make the weapon useable. The only build that can effectively use GS is core and core has no CC. GS only worked when damage levels where very high, which made it useable without CC, since it acted as a deterrent. At the current abysmal damage output and the fact that guardian cannot use berserker amulet, this does not matter. Anet, GS 3 is almost exclusively used in sPvP to leap out of combat. Why this skill ever had healing to being with never made any kitten sense. Buffing the healing is doubling down on idiocy.

I don’t get the JI change. I personally never was a fan of this skill, but no one ever thought this skill is lacking CD.

Anyway, no one in there right mind should use core, shouts, GS or hammer. I will be nice for once and tell you what needs to change.

Core needs more damage, either it is on traits or on the weapons themselves.

Hammer has literally no damage, except for one skill, which does not deal that much damage, highly telegraphed and has an 8 secs CD. Also, hammer CCs do not work in sPvP. Way too slow.

GS needs damage on both AA and GS2. GS only ever worked when it is a deterrent though damage. Guardian lacks the mobility and CC, so the weapon has to hit like a truck, otherwise you will be run over.

Now, someone who does not play, or understand guardian, like sPvP devs maybe asking: “why not use DH with melee weapons, it has the mobility and CC.” It does but not the damage. Power damage is reliant on radiance. Using radiance and retaliation. Virtues generate retaliation (or zeal if you like to live on the edge). DH does not, so it is not an option. Also, virtues in now an absolute must, since it is the only stability option. Now more than ever, power builds must use virtues.

For shouts, Core guardian is married to mediations due to the heal, boons, condi removal and heal skill. Honor + mediations = no damage. Without healing power honor is terrible choice, and you do not have any stats space to use heal power. All shouts are currently weak to be with utility slot. The condi removal is extremely weak, 1 on each use. LoW is like an order of magnitude better heal than receive the light.

While I agree with all your points about the 'buffs' to guardian which are kitten random and useless, I'm also perplexed by your and many other players' unhealthy fixation on

POWER ONLY HUR DUR

mindset. Not all core / dh / fbs play power, and condi is more than viable.

I used to play sage FB all the time. Now it is weak. I have not played in a while, but I was mostly playing core condi before that. It is the only guardian build that can do any damage. It is a C rated build. Maybe a B. To a large extent, the problems with guardian core/DH power are the same with core/DH condi. And since the buffs pertain mostly to power build (less the shouts which pertain to RNG) they are predominately what is being discussed.

In any case, the the issues in sPvP are fair deeper than power or condi guardian. At least for the current changes, I know that whoever made them clearly never set foot in an sPvP match before.

[avey.4201]

@Shiyo.3578 said:Guardian is too squishy and immobile. It's an anomaly of design, when you have classes like holosmith that are insanely tanky AND mobile, or thief which has a ton of evades and mobility. If a class is going to be as immobile as guardian, it should be a brick wall.

add a damage version of dragons mawat least we had some blockable/dodgeable bite beforethe knockdown CC aspect is funny, but mostly useless/unusedDM was DH's answer to those very salty thieves/deadeye's hunting/trolling us when we only wanna fly kitesguards burst was it's defense against burst+mobile specs, else they run away/reset until they kill the guard

[Math.5123]

The only thing keeping dps guard out of being viable is agility sigil. Give guards a semi frequent way of gaining quickness, like on f1 for example and it would be usable.

[aelska.4609]

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:The only thing keeping dps guard out of being viable is agility sigil. Give guards a semi frequent way of gaining quickness, like on f1 for example and it would be usable.

Yup but it promotes bad gameplay. Mighty blow is 3/4s cast time so that it forces you to set up the burst. If you lower the cast time (even artificially through quickness) , you leave no chance to the opponent "even if he could dodge". You will have more troubles recognizing a bad guard from a good guard with that change. Opponent should tell themselves "I should have dodged that" instead of "The f*ck did I die from ?"

My vision of dps guard remains the same: burst should be "avoid or die" with big tells so that the opponent "knows he has to avoid it". It should be tactical for the guard to land the burst in the most appropriate moment (when ennemy has no dodge left, is rooted, is getting cced, etc.), and if the guard fails at it he should be punished hard.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

for every class they let theme pour over into combat mechanics. it should be relegated to animations, artwork, colors, and general combat abilities. instead it is: guard theme - slow, tough, support. guard in practice - slow = handicap, tough = either broken bunker or useless cuz damage scales better (not to mention no more toughness amulets lol), support = yay one point for you.

[Math.5123]

@aelska.4609 said:

@"AngelLovesFredrik.6741" said:The only thing keeping dps guard out of being viable is agility sigil. Give guards a semi frequent way of gaining quickness, like on f1 for example and it would be usable.

Yup but it promotes bad gameplay. Mighty blow is 3/4s cast time so that it forces you to set up the burst. If you lower the cast time (even artificially through quickness) , you leave no chance to the opponent "even if he could dodge". You will have more troubles recognizing a bad guard from a good guard with that change. Opponent should tell themselves "I should have dodged that" instead of "The f*ck did I die from ?"

My vision of dps guard remains the same: burst should be "avoid or die" with big tells so that the opponent "knows he has to avoid it". It should be tactical for the guard to land the burst in the most appropriate moment (when ennemy has no dodge left, is rooted, is getting cced, etc.), and if the guard fails at it he should be punished hard.

But then why would you ever run hammer guard over something like dp thief, nade holo or power rev. All those classes can easily disengage if they miss burst.