It was supposed to be Abaddon, wasn't it?

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Luindu.2418 said:@Konig Des Todes.2086 @"draxynnic.3719"

3. About the Realm of Torment i'm not sure if he really was Abbadon's realm or a prission that he "corrupt" (I tend more to this one) but i was talking (poor writing :p ) about this: ["The realm has been cut off from mortal access until Nightfall. "](
   https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Realm_of_Torment
   ""The realm has been cut off from mortal access until Nightfall. "") A closed "prission" from 0 AE to 1075 AE aprox while the "Balthazar's Prission" have been closed 250 years at most? (supposing that Balthazar was chained the first days the Gods cut contact).Even if must be a good explanation as you said: the poor writing, the need of more details and the fact that we can compare with Nightfall and gw1 lore, makes the story (imho) worse.

On the other points, more or less I agree with you, we need a tons of details to understand this changes.

Technically, the Realm of Torment was

not

cut off. See: Door of Komalie.

And just because Rytlock managed to stumble into there via an unexpected, unprepared portal doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been "closed off" for far longer than Abaddon's had Rytlock not been there. In the same way, had it not been for Kormir activating the Apocrypha by accident then Varesh wouldn't have been able to perform her rituals (at least not as easily), so Abaddon would have been imprisoned longer.

I don't recall the dialogues from gw1, but are you 100% sure the Realm of Torment was Abbadon's realm and not something he has taken to himself? All the wiki says about the realm is: "[...]Though originally meant as a prison for Abaddon and other corrupted souls, the Realm has become overrun by the god's influence." and also "[...] It has become a place where individuals of twisted evil or corruption are banished to spend eternity in torment (hence the name). ". The connection to the Bone pits, the existence of Ravenheart Gloom and the River of Souls would also seen to me as hints that this place was probably not Abbadon's realm, even though I know the throne of secrets is also there.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

On a quick search:

A tower built from the bones of his dead demonic brethren, Mallyx has established his own domain in the shattered heart of Abaddon's realm.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Ebony_Citadel_of_Mallyx

A more reliable one (as the above comes from the gw.dat description of the landmark):

The Gate of the Nightfallen Lands is the entrance to Abaddon's staging ground for his ultimate invasion of the living world. Beyond the gate lies the dark god's corrupted, nightmarish versions of reality, which will eventually overlay onto the real world, bringing about Nightfall and extending Abaddon's Realm of Terror into the lands of Elona and beyond.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_the_Nightfallen_Lands

A tiny shred of reality clinging to Abaddon's former realm, the Gate of Anguish leads to a domain of unimaginable sorrow and despair. It is here that the evil lord Mallyx the Unyielding builds his bastion of power, which threatens the very existence of the Goddess of Truth.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Anguish

The Shadow Nexus is but a single shard of reality left behind by the Five Gods when they imprisoned Abaddon. Once used to control access to his realm, Abaddon has turned their clever scheme upon them and now uses the Nexus to send his foul spawn of Torment to invade other realities.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Shadow_Nexus_(outpost)

As to the connection to the Bone Pits: It seems that the Fissure of Woe is also connected to the Underworld, as we saw one ghost traveling to Grenth's domain via the Forest of the Wailing Lord. It's probable all afterlives are.

[Fenom.9457]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:On a quick search:

A tower built from the bones of his dead demonic brethren, Mallyx has established his own domain in the shattered heart of

Abaddon's realm.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Ebony_Citadel_of_Mallyx

A more reliable one (as the above comes from the gw.dat description of the landmark):

The Gate of the Nightfallen Lands is the entrance to Abaddon's staging ground for his ultimate invasion of the living world. Beyond the gate lies the dark god's corrupted, nightmarish versions of reality, which will eventually overlay onto the real world, bringing about Nightfall and extending

Abaddon's Realm of Terror

into the lands of Elona and beyond.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_the_Nightfallen_Lands

A tiny shred of reality clinging to

Abaddon's former realm,

the Gate of Anguish leads to a domain of unimaginable sorrow and despair. It is here that the evil lord Mallyx the Unyielding builds his bastion of power, which threatens the very existence of the Goddess of Truth.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Gate_of_Anguish

The Shadow Nexus is but a single shard of reality left behind by the Five Gods when they imprisoned Abaddon. Once used to control access to

his realm,

Abaddon has turned their clever scheme upon them and now uses the Nexus to send his foul spawn of Torment to invade other realities.

https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/The_Shadow_Nexus_(outpost

)

As to the connection to the Bone Pits: It seems that the Fissure of Woe is also connected to the Underworld, as

we saw one ghost

traveling to Grenth's domain via the Forest of the Wailing Lord. It's probable all afterlives are.

so mallyx is still around threatening the goddess of truth? Now he'd be able to take the entire domain and eventually launch demonic invasions into tyria wouldn't he?

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Fenom.9457 said:

so mallyx is still around threatening the goddess of truth? Now he'd be able to take the entire domain and eventually launch demonic invasions into tyria wouldn't he?

Uh, no? Those are all quotes from the gw1 wiki. Mallyx is long dead.

[Daishi.6027]

It's kinda like "The Force Awakens."

[Luindu.2418]

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:

Technically, the Realm of Torment was not cut off. See: Door of Komalie.

And just because Rytlock managed to stumble into there via an unexpected, unprepared portal doesn't mean that it wouldn't have been "closed off" for far longer than Abaddon's had Rytlock not been there. In the same way, had it not been for Kormir activating the Apocrypha by accident then Varesh wouldn't have been able to perform her rituals (at least not as easily), so Abaddon would have been imprisoned longer.

Good point with Komalie, what I think is that RoT has some "exits" for demons/titans but no one functions like a "entrance" for mortals, that will explains why Abaddon can send demons out to perform his plans or the Door of Komalie and RoT count as cut off from mortal access.On other hand, the story make me feel like Rytlock was randomly entering in some portals until he reaches the prission, probably like the RoT must have some rituals to open it, but the lack of information of S3/PoF don't throw any clear light to make me think otherwise :'(

[draxynnic.3719]

The Bone Pits do appear to have been an "entrance" into the Realm of Torment. Not one we make use of ingame (in fact, the quest is about preventing souls from being thrown in), but it does seem like it would have been possible for a mortal to enter the Realm of Torment that way.

[zityz.6089]

Wasn't Balthazar the Half brother of Abanddon? It would makes sense then they could have the same feelings about how they viewed themselves. Would also make sense how their fates also ended up how they did.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@zityz.6089 said:Wasn't Balthazar the Half brother of Abanddon? It would makes sense then they could have the same feelings about how they viewed themselves. Would also make sense how their fates also ended up how they did.

Half brother of Menzies, the 'Lord of Destruction'. Menzies backed Abaddon during Nightfall, but they were very much separate entities, and he was not a god himself.

[Gomes.5643]

Actually they didnt even needed to "revive" Abbadon. Because in Guild Wars Lore dead people go to the mists. And as Gods are all probably humans with an absurd amount of magical power, what might happen to them if they are stripped of their powers and die? The Remnants of there souls going to the mist might be a plausible idea. And to put everything together were did Rytlock find and freed our revenge god? Right in the mists.

They could just say that dead gods will return to their human form and act like any other dead human (or dead thing even - as Glint for example is also there) and venture into the mists. There Rytlock - by some miracle - stumpled about the chained abbadon and released him. TADA! You have your baddie without twisting the lore to much.I think the reason why they didnt do it is because then the story would even felt more like Nightfall 2.0.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Gomes.5643 said:Actually they didnt even needed to "revive" Abbadon. Because in Guild Wars Lore dead people go to the mists. And as Gods are all probably humans with an absurd amount of magical power, what might happen to them if they are stripped of their powers and die? The Remnants of there souls going to the mist might be a plausible idea. And to put everything together were did Rytlock find and freed our revenge god? Right in the mists.

They could just say that dead gods will return to their human form and act like any other dead human (or dead thing even - as Glint for example is also there) and venture into the mists. There Rytlock - by some miracle - stumpled about the chained abbadon and released him. TADA! You have your baddie without twisting the lore to much.I think the reason why they didnt do it is because then the story would even felt more like Nightfall 2.0.

Even if that was the case, though- and that's far from certain- Abaddon's body was destroyed during his first uprising. That would mean that what we fight in GW1, and destroy/feed to Kormir, is his soul. Once the soul is gone, there's nothing left.

[Mickey Frogeater.1470]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:Actually they didnt even needed to "revive" Abbadon. Because in Guild Wars Lore dead people go to the mists. And as Gods are all probably humans with an absurd amount of magical power, what might happen to them if they are stripped of their powers and die? The Remnants of there souls going to the mist might be a plausible idea. And to put everything together were did Rytlock find and freed our revenge god? Right in the mists.

They could just say that dead gods will return to their human form and act like any other dead human (or dead thing even - as Glint for example is also there) and venture into the mists. There Rytlock - by some miracle - stumpled about the chained abbadon and released him. TADA! You have your baddie without twisting the lore to much.I think the reason why they didnt do it is because then the story would even felt more like Nightfall 2.0.

Even if that was the case, though- and that's far from certain- Abaddon's body was destroyed during his first uprising. That would mean that what we fight in GW1, and destroy/feed to Kormir,

is

his soul. Once the soul is gone, there's nothing left.

Killing a person's soul in the Underworld usually sends it to Dhuum to empower him... Dhuum absorbed Abaddon's soul and knows what he knows just as Kormir who absorbed his divine power, knowledge and whatever consciousness his predecessor had does.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:Actually they didnt even needed to "revive" Abbadon. Because in Guild Wars Lore dead people go to the mists. And as Gods are all probably humans with an absurd amount of magical power, what might happen to them if they are stripped of their powers and die? The Remnants of there souls going to the mist might be a plausible idea. And to put everything together were did Rytlock find and freed our revenge god? Right in the mists.

They could just say that dead gods will return to their human form and act like any other dead human (or dead thing even - as Glint for example is also there) and venture into the mists. There Rytlock - by some miracle - stumpled about the chained abbadon and released him. TADA! You have your baddie without twisting the lore to much.I think the reason why they didnt do it is because then the story would even felt more like Nightfall 2.0.

Even if that was the case, though- and that's far from certain- Abaddon's body was destroyed during his first uprising. That would mean that what we fight in GW1, and destroy/feed to Kormir,

is

his soul. Once the soul is gone, there's nothing left.

Killing a person's soul in the Underworld usually sends it to Dhuum to empower him... Dhuum absorbed Abaddon's soul and knows what he knows just as Kormir who absorbed his divine power, knowledge and whatever consciousness his predecessor had does.

Deaths in the Underworld empower Dhuum, but A.) there's no evidence he absorbs their soul, instead of, say, an extended version of the necromancer ability to harness life force, and B.) Abaddon died in the Realm of Torment, not the Underworld. If Dhuum had been empowered by deaths there, and given how much influence he'd already established over the Underworld, we would've expected him to break out during the slaughter of the Forgotten jailors and who knows how many demons before or during Nightfall. Instead, it wasn't until more than three years later that he came close.

And, again, this is all supposing that gods have a soul that is released at death to begin with, which is a guess at best.

[PopeUrban.2578]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Mickey Frogeater.1470 said:

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:

@Gomes.5643 said:Actually they didnt even needed to "revive" Abbadon. Because in Guild Wars Lore dead people go to the mists. And as Gods are all probably humans with an absurd amount of magical power, what might happen to them if they are stripped of their powers and die? The Remnants of there souls going to the mist might be a plausible idea. And to put everything together were did Rytlock find and freed our revenge god? Right in the mists.

They could just say that dead gods will return to their human form and act like any other dead human (or dead thing even - as Glint for example is also there) and venture into the mists. There Rytlock - by some miracle - stumpled about the chained abbadon and released him. TADA! You have your baddie without twisting the lore to much.I think the reason why they didnt do it is because then the story would even felt more like Nightfall 2.0.

Even if that was the case, though- and that's far from certain- Abaddon's body was destroyed during his first uprising. That would mean that what we fight in GW1, and destroy/feed to Kormir,

is

his soul. Once the soul is gone, there's nothing left.

Killing a person's soul in the Underworld usually sends it to Dhuum to empower him... Dhuum absorbed Abaddon's soul and knows what he knows just as Kormir who absorbed his divine power, knowledge and whatever consciousness his predecessor had does.

Deaths in the Underworld empower Dhuum, but A.) there's no evidence he absorbs their soul, instead of, say, an extended version of the necromancer ability to harness life force, and B.) Abaddon died in the Realm of Torment, not the Underworld. If Dhuum had been empowered by deaths there, and given how much influence he'd already established over the Underworld, we would've expected him to break out during the slaughter of the Forgotten jailors and who knows how many demons before or during Nightfall. Instead, it wasn't until more than three years later that he came close.

And, again, this is all supposing that gods have a soul that is released at death to begin with, which is a guess at best.

That's a fun thing about the gods. AFAIK all we know about their true nature (as relayed through them, which is autobiographical information, and thus possibly suspect) is that they contain an absurd amount of magical energy, they found humans on another plane, and the brought them to tyria. We know they're said to have very mundane seeming interactions with each other, similar to other mythical pantheons.

We also know that at least a portion of their power is transient rather than innate. Abby's power was assumed by Kormir. Dhuum and Balthazar's power was forcibly removed, but only partially, as even imprisoned they retained some of it, while some of it was transitioned to other sources. Kormir's monologue seems to suggest that the Elder Dragons are wholly capable of absorbing that power entirely.

Because what we know about the gods is from their own lips and from no other source, its plausible that they were originally mundane humans that stumbled upon or were gifted their power from an outside source. This would make sense given what we know about their specific relationship with humanity. In which case they might, natively have a "soul" in as much as the GW universe recognizes it, as a "ghost" of a being that exists outside a physical body. However we also know that "ghosts" of beings in this universe are not wholly immortal either. There are countless instances of these ghosts being destroyed or consumed.

For the purposes of GW lore, I think the concept of soul, ghost, and consciousness are one in the same. I prefer the term ghost as it seems more appropriate for the typs of interactions noncorporeal beings seem to have with one another, as if they're largely interacting with one another by a set of rules of location and sensation very similar to corporal reality.

Best as I can tell, "death" in the GW universe is a state of decoupling the "ghost" from a specific material plane where it is moved by outside sources, either by direct intervention of beings like the gods or envoys or of its own volition by existing currents in the mists somewhat steered by its owner with varying degrees of success to other locations. We see that this is not unique to humans as we have encountered ghosts of all manner of creatures and races, including Charr (who do not revere gods at all, but are apperantly still subject to the laws of this universe) and Asura (who revere the workings of the universe itself)

Far as I can tell the mists, rather than any specific material plane/location (as the two terms are interchangable in the cosmology of the mists) are the default state of being for anything intelligent in this universe, and that that "ghost" seems an inherant property of simply being born.

Heck, look at Razah. Razah was formed fully conscious from the mists themselves, as far as he can tell with no outside forces right?

I'd wager its not so much a matter of "do the gods have souls" as its obvious that by virtue of being alive in the GW universe they do. A GW "soul" or "ghost" is a given. The more interesting question is "Do the gods need physical bodies, or do they simply manifest them when they want to interact with physical reality?"

All we've learned about the EDs, the mists, and the Gods seems to indicate that the mists react to the presense of ghosts/souls.consciousness by manifesting physical reality. We see this in the revelations about the EDs being crucial to Tyria existing at all (Tyria is a framework created by the mists around a set of several powerful "souls") We see this in fractals or many pvp battlegrounds by recreations of other spaces brought in to being by stray memories or FRAGMENTS of souls/consciousnesses that seem to gravitate toward one another. We see this interconnect in multiple places by the ability of most beings to traverse (though it is often fantastically dangerous to them) outside of their physical realms and in to the mists provided they can make or have access to some doorway to escape the "gravitational pull" of the consciousnesses that make up their reality.

If GW cosmology is such that it is a given that anything that lives has a "soul" and physical bodies and indeed all physical reality is a byproduct of that "soul" having its own sort of magnetic or gravitational pull that coalesces the mists in to amalgamations of shared experience. Those amalgamations, given the right conditions, seem to have the ability to produce, both willingly (though procreation) or passively (through natural forces like those which created Razah) more souls, which can exert passive and active pull on the mists and other souls.

I'd say this points to magic as a sort of super-heavy element that completes the triad of "soul" and "mists" that exerts the same sort of pull as an actual "soul" but is without an inherant will of its own, and unlike a "soul" isn't subject to the natural pull of other souls. That makes magic an extreme catalyst as owning it allows a single "soul" to exert far more pull on that souls-mists continuum than it naturally would.

This complex understanding of the nature of the mists is something beings like the gods, mursaat, or seers seem to have intricate understandings of that Tyrians are only now beginning to grasp, and this understanding could put Tyria on a dangerous collision course with other beings of that order like the EDs even if Glint's Legacy is in some way realized and Tyria itself is stabalized by finding equilibrium between the ED "souls" required to keep it from dissipating.

So, the Gods have "souls" which are possibly quite human, but also a whole lot of magic, which allows them to exert the amount of "gravitational pull" of something approaching the scale of a much larger "soul" like that of an ED. This would explain why they retain some of their abilities even when stripped of their power. It would explain why most prisons for such beings are in realms of their own making. It would also explain why even creatures like the gods, seers, EDs and mursaat are cognizant and fearful of permanent death.

[Djinn.9245]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Luindu.2418 said:The problem is that living world season 3 and the main story of POF don't adequately portray Balthazar's motivations, sure they might have shoe-horned in an explanation in a collectible lore book, but for someone who just plays the story instances, Balthazar ends up being a one-dimensional and stereotypical "I want revenge and power" villain. For these reasons I feel that Abaddon would have been more interesting.

You realize that Abaddon was, in fact, even worse than Balthazar in his portrayal in terms of lore only from the main missions, right?

Until GW2 brought it in the game via obscure objects, the lore about Abaddon granting magic existed only outside of the game. Same with him being a wise being who often advised the other gods, or the events of the war beyond the Temple of the Six and the Horde of Darkness (and of those two, only the Horde of Darkness was in the main plot - but as a footnote; the other was in the game, but as an outpost description). The lore about Abaddon behind behind the events of the Searing, Cataclysm, and Jade Wind was all and solely in side quests. The lore of Abaddon allying with Menzies was in side content. Almost all of Abaddon's lore was not in the main missions.

Abaddon had no dialogue himself, no stated motivation beyond revenge and becoming "the only true god", and certainly no history beyond "he started a war with Margonite followers, lost and was imprisoned before the gods left." The only lore about Abaddon's involvement in pre-Nightfall post-Exodus events in the main plot was that he had Shiro and Khilbron as generals after their deaths, corrupted Tombs (one side comment for that, even), and had an alliance with Dhuum.

And that's how it is for everything in GW lore, really. About 60-80% of lore is always in the open world, not the missions.

And the biggest issue about Balthazar - that he went from honrable to honorless - actually

is

explained in the main plot of S3 and PoF. It's just explained

poorly

because the ultimate defacto cause of conflict was Balthazar shouting "I AM CONFLICT!" which was, sadly, completely out of character... until we think about the fact that he is a warrior, a god of war, who has had no proper personal battle for centuries if not longer. The last personal fight he was in was against Abaddon, as far as we know only the Eternals and mortals fought Menzies' forces (and there are hints that the battle with Menzies ended before Balthazar's imprisonment). If you had someone who's life was defined by the battles he had, only to go a thousand years without a challenging fight, that person would be itching for a new glorious battle.

Abaddon's plot only felt so good after one digs through all the buried lore. It wouldn't be surprising if Balthazar is the same.

So? The fact that the Balthazar story was terrible because of a lack of explanation during the story is ok because the Abaddon story was similar in the previous GW game?

O.o

[Djinn.9245]

@Luindu.2418 said:well, i'm very dissilusioned with the direction of the God's lore.

• Even if Balthazar turns "a bad guy" at least I expect that it has a good explanation (Abaddon's lies, Dragon's Corruption...).Kormir and the others to leave us alone, and the apparently because he are less power of ED's (or because he can't control his own powers?).
• Godhood stripping for Balthazar that doesn't affect his powers and make me suspicious that they don't do the same with Abaddon.
• The decission of not make a realm/prission for him (like they do with Abaddon's) and throw it with chains and no guards in a random place of the mists.
• 90% Abaddon's worshippers changes his minds "magically" (that the balthazar adept in the LS3 that seems too radical to me and the Zhaisens)

On other hand I like the Sunspear, Joko nd Joko's Domains lores. Something can change in time, but the nature/behaviour of the Gods seems more like a static thing for centuries of GW Lore.

I agree, especially why the gods didn't make a better prison for Balthazar. He was trying to kill the dragons which = the destruction of Tyria. That is not a small thing. And he still had followers who could try to find and help him. Very bad plot hole just so someone like Rytlock could come and save him. Bad writing.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Djinn.9245 said:So? The fact that the Balthazar story was terrible because of a lack of explanation during the story is ok because the Abaddon story was similar in the previous GW game?

O.o

That's not what I was saying at all. I wasn't defending the story of PoF there, I was saying that people praise Nightfall and Abaddon's plot as some intricately woven and presented story, but in actuality we got less out of the main story of Nightfall than we did out of the main story of Path of Fire.

It was only with out-of-game sources (many later made in-game in GW2) that Abaddon's plot became so truly interesting.

I'm just denoting a bit of irony of people saying PoF's plot sucks because so little explanation exists in the main plot, while at the same time praising NF which had a plot that had so little explanation in the main plot.

[draxynnic.3719]

@PopeUrban.2578 said:All we've learned about the EDs, the mists, and the Gods seems to indicate that the mists react to the presense of ghosts/souls.consciousness by manifesting physical reality. We see this in the revelations about the EDs being crucial to Tyria existing at all (Tyria is a framework created by the mists around a set of several powerful "souls") We see this in fractals or many pvp battlegrounds by recreations of other spaces brought in to being by stray memories or FRAGMENTS of souls/consciousnesses that seem to gravitate toward one another. We see this interconnect in multiple places by the ability of most beings to traverse (though it is often fantastically dangerous to them) outside of their physical realms and in to the mists provided they can make or have access to some doorway to escape the "gravitational pull" of the consciousnesses that make up their reality.

I largely agree with you up to here.

We don't have any evidence that Tyria formed around the Elder Dragons, and therefore that souls have the kind of 'gravitational pull' that you're talking about.

We know that the Elder Dragons are presently required for Tyria's balance of magic to be preserved, but we don't know if that was always the case. It's possible that in the past, magic in Tyria was regulated by a different method. It's also possible that Tyria originally had magic that was balanced without needing balancing agents, but the Elder Dragons upset that balance by consuming large amounts of magic (which could have created a magical low-pressure-region in Tyria, causing magic from the Mists to be drawn to Tyria, which over a few cycles would create a situation where releasing all the magic stored in the dragons at once becomes incredibly dangerous).

The creation of Tyria seems to just be a case of "the Mists randomly creates stuff, and occasionally it randomly creates entire worlds".

[morsdood.1987]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Sadly, unlike The Force Awakens, to make Path of Fire work they had to twist a lot of lore. They should have gone with Menzies or Dhuum instead.What exactly did they twist? Would love to see some examples that aren't reaching or flatout wrong.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Killerbot.8645 said:

@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:Sadly, unlike The Force Awakens, to make Path of Fire work they had to twist a lot of lore. They should have gone with Menzies or Dhuum instead.What exactly did they twist? Would love to see some examples that aren't reaching or flatout wrong.

Balthazar's personality. Though there's little in GW1, and he was a bit ruthless, he was far from as savage as Season 3 and Path of Fire depict him as. His whole "I AM CONFLICT!" shouting match in Kormir's visions are particularly off of his character. And in Season 3 Episode 6, there was the parables where Balthazar is shown consuming a soul - something that was blatantly downright evil throughout GW1 and was something that the Five would never do because that's the sort of things that condemned Dhuum and Abaddon.

They've been steadily painting Balthazar more darker in GW2 from the beginning, but stepped it up in Season 3, where he's doing blatantly evil things.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Actually it could have been Menzies or Dhuum, makes much more sense than Balthazar

[Slowpokeking.8720]

Since Jeff and Ree are no longer working at Anet, different ppl handle the story so they changed direction.

[Slowpokeking.8720]

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@Djinn.9245 said:So? The fact that the Balthazar story was terrible because of a lack of explanation during the story is ok because the Abaddon story was similar in the previous GW game?

O.o

That's not what I was saying at all. I wasn't defending the story of PoF there, I was saying that people praise Nightfall and Abaddon's plot as some intricately woven and presented story, but in actuality we got less out of the main story of Nightfall than we did out of the main story of Path of Fire.

It was only with out-of-game sources (many later made in-game in GW2) that Abaddon's plot became so truly interesting.

I'm just denoting a bit of irony of people saying PoF's plot sucks because so little explanation exists in the main plot, while at the same time praising NF which had a plot that had so little explanation in the main plot.

Abaddon manipulating Tyria makes sense, but Cantha, "fortune teller was a demon" kinda ruined the weird move of the emperor.

But anyway, bringing Abaddon back would be a bad move.

[Konig Des Todes.2086]

@Slowpokeking.8720 said:Abaddon manipulating Tyria makes sense, but Cantha, "fortune teller was a demon" kinda ruined the weird move of the emperor.

Not all that weird, IMO. Shiro didn't just kill Angsiyah and throw Cantha into panic over the loss of their leader. He stole a gift from Dwayna. Had Shiro lived, he likely would have used that immense magic to help bring about Nightfall sooner. All of Abaddon's actions were, ultimately, to break his prison and get revenge. Either directly weakening the prison (Varesh), by devastating humanity's chances to fight back (the Cataclysm, the Searing), or by moving his minions into Tyria (Flameseeker Prophecies, Tombs, Dragon Festival). We don't know what his original plans with Shiro were, but it's safe to say that the Jade Wind wasn't it - that was his Xanatos Gambit maneuver with Shiro (as were the charr - if Khilbron failed, Orr fell to charr; if Khilbron succeeded, Orr sunk beneath the waves; a win no matter what).

Honestly, I think the fact that all of Abaddon's plots were, effectively, xanatos gambits or batman gambits (or both) is what made Abaddon such a fan favorite, tied in with the reason for his downfall being so questionable of whether he was originally a good guy or a bad guy for his initial rebellion.

Anet tried to make Balthazar an Abaddon, but they failed in the most critical points. First, that it made no real sense to twist Balthazar into a villain. And second, because Balthazar was a straightforward warrior. After his Lazarus guise was gone, he had no deceptions to play, no trickery or the like. He just rushed head long into the matters. Which is fitting for Balthazar - and makes his Lazarus guise even more strange - but doesn't make for a good big bad.

[draxynnic.3719]

Third, they were too busy making Balthazar a scenery-chewing, mass murdering villain to present any reason to think that maybe he was in the right. In Abaddon's case, all of his actions up to his imprisonment are compatible with the idea that he just wanted to do the best thing for his followers, and possibly was even only dragged into war with the other gods due to the actions of said followers.

Balthazar, on the other hand: The gods knew that a war between the dragons and the gods was a lose-lose proposition that would destroy Tyria no matter who won, and before his imprisonment Balthazar basically had no motivation for wanting to carry out that war anyway besides stroking his own ego.

If there was any hint that Balthazar might have had a plan for defeating the dragons without Tyria - even if he stopped caring after his imprisonment and release - then that might change things. That would present his motivations pre-imprisonment as being willing to take a gamble that the other gods weren't willing to take. Instead, he's presented, both before and after imprisonment, as a hothead who doesn't care who else gets hurt as long as he gets what he wants.