This Balance Patch

[Angelweave.1856]

Firstly let me state that I don't follow the meta often. My power ranger uses sword/dagger and I even use this build in tier 4 fractuals, so to all the meta haters I'm with you. However when I struggle I grab a meta build and all of a sudden I have no issues.

Though the meta still affects my gameplay, take my sub-optimal power ranger. Power is never ever going to cut it, so I gimp myself firstly by playing power instead of condition and then secondly by using a dagger instead of an axe.

The meta is too disparate,

1. Best ranger power build = 26k dps
2. Best ranger condi build = 37k dps

A balanced meta would be similar to gear stats 5% between exotic and ascended, why does the meta have a 30% gap...??? Can this balance patch close the gap please.

(side note) I will still play my sub-optimal builds, though they can be 30% more viable if the meta had improved balance

[KTap.4381]

As a power reaper main, I agree that the gap should be lessened (easier said than done). Power reaper is great in open world PvE, but I'd like to be 'viable' for more than that :p

[Einlanzer.1627]

@Angelweave.1856 said:Firstly let me state that I don't follow the meta often. My power ranger uses sword/dagger and I even use this build in tier 4 fractuals, so to all the meta haters I'm with you. However when I struggle I grab a meta build and all of a sudden I have no issues.

Though the meta still affects my gameplay, take my sub-optimal power ranger. Power is never ever going to cut it, so I kitten myself firstly by playing power instead of condition and then secondly by using a dagger instead of an axe.

The meta is too disparate,

1. Best ranger power build = 26k dps
2. Best ranger condi build = 37k dps

A balanced meta would be similar to gear stats 5% between exotic and ascended, why does the meta have a 30% gap...??? Can this balance patch close the gap please.

(side note) I will still play my sub-optimal builds, though they can be 30% more viable if the meta had improved balance

Yeah, they need to do a better job of benchmarking it. Here's how I see it - Condi (Viper) should be about 10-20% stronger vs an enemy with average armor. With higher armor, condi can get up to 50% stronger, and against low armor, power (Berserker) should slightly surpass condi. That way, power can at least have some longer fights that it shines over condi in.

Condi has the drawback of taking time to apply the damage, but it has the benefit of applying that damage passively, allowing for a better ability to set up and more ability to focus on defense and utility while you're dealing damage, which is a pretty huge perk in this game's active defense combat system. I feel like Karl's comment in the AMA failed to take that into account, which is worrisome.

It also has the benefit of coming closer to its apex with less gear investment, since the condi damage attribute ( for gods sake, Anet, revert it to Malice so that it's clearer and rolls off the tongue better) gives way more alone to condition builds than power alone gives to burst builds. This is something that probably needs to be reworked in the attributes themselves - I've always been an advocate of combining Precision and Ferocity in part for this reason.

[Angelweave.1856]

True condi does take time to apply, but if you mess up your rotation for a condi build your dps drop is hardly noticed... with power if you mess up your rotation on your spike you're not going to get your dps up again for another 5-10 seconds. So to me they are balanced in that condi takes time but is forgiving, power is instant but don't mess up the critical skills.

[Oldirtbeard.9834]

@Angelweave.1856 said:True condi does take time to apply, but if you mess up your rotation for a condi build your dps drop is hardly noticed... with power if you mess up your rotation on your spike you're not going to get your dps up again for another 5-10 seconds. So to me they are balanced in that condi takes time but is forgiving, power is instant but don't mess up the critical skills.

If thats true then I'm better off going Condi Reaper, I hate specter though it bores me.

On a side note whats that overlay that shows your cool downs counting down?

[Carighan.6758]

@Angelweave.1856 said:The meta is too disparate,

1. Best ranger power build = 26k dps
2. Best ranger condi build = 37k dps

A balanced meta would be similar to gear stats 5% between exotic and ascended, why does the meta have a 30% gap...??? Can this balance patch close the gap please.

Erm, the Ranger DPS build does 37k DPS. An inferior different DPS build does 26k.

What does it matter whether the numbers above the enemy head are slightly larger or smaller and have a small icon next to them or not? You play a damage build, you do damage. Each class hopefully has one well-designed one (they don't, but that's besides the point here).

Why does a class need two well-designed damage builds?

[Reverielle.3972]

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Angelweave.1856 said:The meta is too disparate,

1. Best ranger power build = 26k dps
2. Best ranger condi build = 37k dps

A balanced meta would be similar to gear stats 5% between exotic and ascended, why does the meta have a 30% gap...??? Can this balance patch close the gap please.

Erm, the Ranger

DPS build

does 37k DPS. An inferior different DPS build does 26k.

What does it matter whether the numbers above the enemy head are slightly larger or smaller and have a small icon next to them or not? You play a damage build, you do damage. Each class hopefully has one well-designed one (they don't, but that's besides the point here).

Why does a class need

two

well-designed damage builds?

I may be wrong, but I think they're just asking for balance. Of the nine classes we have, which have a dps meta power build that does more damage than dps meta condition build? I don't know the answer to this, but if it's something like 4-5 classes then that's fine, but if it's 1 or 0, then there are perhaps some fundamental problems.

[Carighan.6758]

@Reverielle.3972 said:I may be wrong, but I think they're just asking for balance. Of the nine classes we have, which have a dps meta power build that does more damage than dps meta condition build? I don't know the answer to this, but if it's something like 4-5 classes then that's fine, but if it's 1 or 0, then there are perhaps some fundamental problems.

But again, why is that a problem? There's no difference between the two types of damage specs other than how the game formats the damage numbers you deal to the enemy. You even play similar gameplay-wise, considering how restricted the skill/ability setups are in GW2 due to the hotbar layout and all.

If the classes aren't balanced against each other (example Weaver vs Mirage) that's a problem, yes. But it's damage Weaver vs damage Mirage. Because that's the role, "damage dealer". Not "power damage dealer", that's a function of dev-side class design, and if DoTs are supposed to trade burst for overall damage then by default on longer-lasting bosses they will be superior. Which again is perfectly fine and not an inherent issue because all it changes to the player aside from some minimal loss of burst-potential (we don't truly have burn phases in raids though) is that the numbers above the enemies' heads look different. That's it.

[Dawdler.8521]

To make bosses better against both condi and power, just give them all a skill thats on a very short cd - lets say 7s for laughs because thats gonna be so unbalanced - offer total damage immunity for a couple of seconds (power and condi), stability and - get this - when you hit the boss during this time he counters it and hit back, not only doing tons of damage but also dazing, crippling and slowing you.

[vinterberg.2783]

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:On a side note whats that overlay that shows your cool downs counting down?

F11 -> Show Skill Recharge :)

[Carighan.6758]

@Dawdler.8521 said:To make bosses better against both condi and power, just give them all a skill thats on a very short cd - lets say 7s for laughs because thats gonna be so unbalanced - offer total damage immunity for a couple of seconds (power and condi), stability and - get this - when you hit the boss during this time he counters it and hit back, not only doing tons of damage but also dazing, crippling and slowing you.

That affects fast attackers more than slow attackers though. Has nothing to do with power vs condi. Both spam abilities like crazy.

[Reverielle.3972]

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Reverielle.3972 said:I may be wrong, but I think they're just asking for balance. Of the nine classes we have, which have a dps meta power build that does more damage than dps meta condition build? I don't know the answer to this, but if it's something like 4-5 classes then that's fine, but if it's 1 or 0, then there are perhaps some fundamental problems.

But again, why is that a problem? There's no difference between the two types of damage specs other than how the game formats the damage numbers you deal to the enemy. You even play similar gameplay-wise, considering how restricted the skill/ability setups are in GW2 due to the hotbar layout and all.

If the

classes

aren't balanced against each other (example Weaver vs Mirage) that's a problem, yes. But it's

damage

Weaver vs

damage

Mirage. Because that's the role, "damage dealer". Not "power damage dealer", that's a function of dev-side class design, and if DoTs are supposed to trade burst for overall damage then by default on longer-lasting bosses they will be superior. Which again is perfectly fine and not an inherent issue because all it changes to the player aside from some minimal loss of burst-potential (we don't truly have burn phases in raids though) is that the numbers above the enemies' heads look different. That's it.

Because if there is significant imbalance there is a problem. Why? Because there are character build choices. It's only sensible that choices are there for a reason to provide variability and individual choice for players (e.g. equipment choices, build choices, etc). The choices aren't there to provide a 'this is the right choice' and 'this is the wrong choice' which is what is the case in this context if there is significant imbalance between power and condition builds. If there is as huge a discrepancy between power and condition damage dealing potential as has been suggested that only does one thing; damages the game, through lack of variation.

There is nothing wrong with asking for balance. Perhaps a more prudent question is; why are people against wanting balance?

[Offair.2563]

@Oldirtbeard.9834 said:

@Angelweave.1856 said:True condi does take time to apply, but if you mess up your rotation for a condi build your dps drop is hardly noticed... with power if you mess up your rotation on your spike you're not going to get your dps up again for another 5-10 seconds. So to me they are balanced in that condi takes time but is forgiving, power is instant but don't mess up the critical skills.

If thats true then I'm better off going Condi Reaper, I hate specter though it bores me.

On a side note whats that overlay that shows your cool downs counting down?

General options> Show Skill Recharge.

[Carighan.6758]

@Reverielle.3972 said:If there is as huge a discrepancy between power and condition damage dealing potential as has been suggested that only does one thing; damages the game, through lack of variation.

As I said, and this part seems to be missed repeatedly, "condi should be balanced against power" has no inherent value. It's just a different way of formating the numbers above an enemies head, for PvE purposes at least.

So equivalently, you could say "A bleed spec should not be stronger than a torment spec on a Necro". As in, you expect multiple condi builds to be balanced on the same class. That's the very same argument actually, if someone could build say... 16 DPS specs, say 12 power and 4 condi, they all need to be balanced, right?

But, what if I make a minimal adjustment? Say I swap two Viper pieces to Sinister. That's a different spec, I sacrificed some condi duration for condi damage. Should that still be balanced? What if I equip a power weapon instead but keep the rest the same? Should that still be balanced?

Wouldn't you rather say "No that's rubbish, of course you're doing something silly and your spec is going to be weak as a result"? Because that makes sense, you wouldn't use a power weapon with a condi spec. You wouldn't intentionally make a worse spec. But then, why would you spec power if condi is inherently doing more damage in a context where the upsides of power have no meaning?

(edit)Or, in yet other words, why is this specific instance of worse vs better spec supposed to be balanced, but not all the other 15 gazillion ones?

[TheGrimm.5624]

I admit I am glad that ANet came out in that last AMA and said what some people believed was the case which was that power should be burst and condi should be higher damage over time. I am not in either camp, play both condi/power/hyrbrid in all the classes, but do agree with that thought that power should excel in short term and condi over long haul. I am also in the camp of f the meta, play what you enjoy and is effective for you and that dead peeps do no deeps. So if you can survive in more dps armor, do so, if you can't don't kill your buddy as they try and keep getting you back up. Do your part and don't be dead weight but don't be rez bait either.

Power was king of the hill for a long time and now condi is more in line where it should be. The thing with statistics is that its easy to release mis-information. So what you have to ask since ANet has stated its goal is power=more short term condi over longer time is, is that true. What we don't know is the amount of time defined for a fight since that will vary. A PvEr might think a minute, a PvPer/WvWer 10 seconds. So in that light from seconds 0 thru 60 what was the output and did power do more in the start and condi more from mid to end. Playing both sets of builds its more in line now then it was in the power days. In addition to me it feels like ANet is trying to lead people more and more to hybrid builds as we see more elites that are mixes of both power and condi. Hybirds in the community has often over time been seen as the black sheep so its going to be even more important to keep that balance of time to acquire that damage between power and condi if hybrids are the goal of more future elite specs.

Balancing will always be needed and I would never expect a perfect state since that would mean the game stopped releasing new features which means people would move on. So to the OP, how long was this test for to determine the average damage per second?

[IndigoSundown.5419]

@Carighan.6758 said:

As I said, and this part seems to be missed repeatedly, "condi should be balanced against power" has no inherent value. It's just a different way of formating the numbers above an enemies head, for PvE purposes at least.

So equivalently, you could say "A bleed spec should not be stronger than a torment spec on a Necro". As in, you expect multiple condi builds to be balanced on the same class. That's the very same argument actually, if someone could build say... 16 DPS specs, say 12 power and 4 condi, they all need to be balanced, right?

But, what if I make a minimal adjustment? Say I swap two Viper pieces to Sinister. That's a different spec, I sacrificed some condi duration for condi damage. Should that still be balanced? What if I equip a power weapon instead but keep the rest the same? Should that still be balanced?

Wouldn't you rather say "No that's rubbish, of course you're doing something silly and your spec is going to be weak as a result"? Because that makes sense, you wouldn't use a power weapon with a condi spec. You wouldn't intentionally make a worse spec. But then, why would you spec power if condi is inherently doing more damage in a context where the upsides of power have no meaning?

(edit)Or, in yet other words, why is this specific instance of worse vs better spec supposed to be balanced, but not all the other 15 gazillion ones?

Power damage versus condition damage is the main choice one must make when choosing how to play GW2. That choice is much more basic than the choice of which runes and sigils to use, whether to use Sinister or Viper or whether one is aiming to buff torment versus bleed. The minor decisions all follow after one has chosen condi or power.

Some people who play the game favor efficiency. Others favor a vision as to who their character is, what weapons he uses, and many other factors that go into the mental construct they've built. Neither type of player wants to be ineffective. You're arguing from the efficiency standpoint. While that is a valid way to look at a gaming experience, it is not the only valid way.

[Blaeys.3102]

I like the idea of power for spike and condi for sustained.

The problem is that most fights aren't balanced with that dynamic in mind. With the exception of things like VG, where roles are forced upon players, it is almost always best to go one way or the other, depending on the nature of the fight.

If they want to push that design philosophy, which I would wholeheartedly support, then they need both the balance and the various content teams to be on the same page in developing around it. As it stands, it is a disjointed system that caters to min/maxers who find switching toons between every encounter fun.

And then there is the deeper issue of the revenant and engineer (and sometimes necro) - professions that are more or less excluded from competitive PVE play and have been since the beginning.

And, finally, they need to do something about the imbalanced reliance on chronomancers. 100% group alacrity and quickness either needs to be given to other professions or toned down. In the current meta, chronomancers are just way too important and indispensable, meaning some players (like myself) will be stuck playing just that profession for the rest of time.

[Reverielle.3972]

@Carighan.6758 said:

@Reverielle.3972 said:If there is as huge a discrepancy between power and condition damage dealing potential as has been suggested that only does one thing; damages the game, through lack of variation.

As I said, and this part seems to be missed repeatedly, "condi should be balanced against power" has no inherent value. It's just a different way of formating the numbers above an enemies head, for PvE purposes at least.

So equivalently, you could say "A bleed spec should not be stronger than a torment spec on a Necro". As in, you expect

multiple

condi builds to be balanced on the same class. That's the very same argument actually, if someone could build say... 16 DPS specs, say 12 power and 4 condi, they all need to be balanced, right?

But, what if I make a minimal adjustment? Say I swap two Viper pieces to Sinister. That's a different spec, I sacrificed some condi duration for condi damage. Should that still be balanced? What if I equip a power weapon instead but keep the rest the same? Should that still be balanced?

Wouldn't you rather say "No that's rubbish, of course you're doing something silly and your spec is going to be weak as a result"? Because that makes sense, you wouldn't use a power weapon with a condi spec. You wouldn't

intentionally make a worse spec

. But then, why would you spec power if condi is inherently doing more damage in a context where the upsides of power have no meaning?

(edit)Or, in yet other words, why is this specific instance of worse vs better spec supposed to be balanced, but not all the other 15 gazillion ones?

No, that's simply not true: Balance almost always has some inherent value. It's one of the very fundamentals of a successful MMO. And, as others have said: the condition/power choice is not a specific or one of '15 gazillion'; It's basically the fundamental first choice you make when deciding which path to go down: Condition or Power. This very fundamental is reflected not only in equipment, but class traits too, as well as some combat/enemy mechanics. If one were to made a flow diagram of the process of making a dps character, the first split would more than likely be basically be a choice: Condition or Power. I don't think it's too much to ask there to be balance between these two broad categories.

You've stripped away the game and are just looking at it in terms of numbers. 'numbers above an enemies head', as you say yourself. But the game is much more than that to most players. Most of the player base don't see the game as a glorified spreadsheet, they want to enjoy it. Condition and Power damage player are different in both their application and their feel in combat. Some players like the feel and game-play of one type, some like the other, some like both. Just because the minority do not care about which they use, as long as they see good numbers above the enemy's head in battle, does not mean there is no value in providing balance between these - and I'll say again - two most fundamental of choices, for the majority of the player base that does care about game-play beyond zeros and ones.

[Carighan.6758]

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Some people who play the game favor efficiency. Others favor a vision as to who their character is, what weapons he uses, and many other factors that go into the mental construct they've built. Neither type of player wants to be ineffective. You're arguing from the efficiency standpoint. While that is a valid way to look at a gaming experience, it is not the only valid way.

Yes but looking back to when I started MMORPGs (EQ1, early days), the idea that you can have "excessive" valid choices is entirely utopian. Even chiseled down to just the bare minimum of design space, "balance" is utopian. As such, I'd be damn happy if we can have one DPS spec per class, and get those balanced. That alone will factually just never happen. Nevermind two!

Also, to express my underlying "doesn't matter"-point differently: I bet everyone that if you had no way to see debuffs on an enemy, no tooltips on your skills and no numbers above the enemies, in PvE raids you wouldn't even be able to tell whether you're using DoTs or DDs. That's how weirdly implemented they are in GW2. That's not a positive thing, mind you. It should feel very different. But our DoTs are easily spammed, have high DPS and low DPC. They feel like DDs used at high latency more than DoTs.

[Reverielle.3972]

@Carighan.6758 said:

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:Some people who play the game favor efficiency. Others favor a vision as to who their character is, what weapons he uses, and many other factors that go into the mental construct they've built. Neither type of player wants to be ineffective. You're arguing from the efficiency standpoint. While that is a valid way to look at a gaming experience, it is not the only valid way.

Yes but looking back to when I started MMORPGs (EQ1, early days), the idea that you can have "excessive" valid choices is entirely utopian. Even chiseled down to just the bare minimum of design space, "balance" is utopian. As such, I'd be kitten happy if we can have one DPS spec per class, and get

those

balanced. That alone will factually just never happen. Nevermind

two

!

I don't think two is excessive. But oh yes, definitely: Gaming history shows us it's exceptionally difficult, but that doesn't mean for one second development should give up striving to achieve for such balance. The moment they say 'it's too hard' and stop, it's basically a death sentence for the game. Some important things are worth working towards even when it's known that the perfect utopian result will never likely be achieved.

[Carighan.6758]

@Reverielle.3972 said:I don't think two is excessive. But oh yes, definitely: Gaming history shows us it's exceptionally difficult, but that doesn't mean for one second development should give up striving to achieve for such balance. The moment they say 'it's too hard' and stop, it's basically a death sentence for the game. Some important things are worth working towards even when it's known that the perfect utopian result will never likely be achieved.

Frankly looking at ANet's last 5 years they don't even begin to get to where other games where when they ran into the "can't even balance one spec per class"-problem. We're not even there. Not nearly. I sincerely doubt they have a "balance team", even. As in, there's devs doing balance work every so often but no dedicated people who do it day in / day out.

If there were, we'd see bigger changes. Ripping out entire skills, even skill types. Replacing them. Changing the underlying design of conditions to truly feel like DoTs before even attempting any sort of "pick for yourself"-balance against DDs (other MMORPGs bake this into their class design, some classes are more DoT centric, others more DD centric, which frankly works well to differentiate classes). And this would happen frequently.

Instead we get 2-4 balance patches a year, each them pushing a few dozen numbers around and maybe retooling a single skill or so. At that speed, I predict somewhere in late 2040 we might see the first careful attempts at reworking the underlying issues of DoTs not being DoTs in GW2 and of skill-spam in general, both of which would be prerequisites for attempting such a balance where DD vs DoT becomes an entirely voluntary per-player choice.

Or in other words: Not going to happen. Just... no.

And frankly I wouldn't know how to do it even if I had the manpower available. DoTs as a concept trade inferior damage-per-second, and hence burst and pressure, for superior damage-per-cast-time. So they increase your overall DPS because you only spend 1 second casting an effect which will then deal damage over the next 30 or so seconds, but their individual damage is negligible. That's what defines them. And yet GW2 couldn't be further from realizing this if it tried, having our DoTs be short-duration glorified pseudo-DDs.