Would you like to see specializations for minions, elementals etc?

[KinderOutlaw.5846]

trying to kick start the topic again :)

[derd.6413]

besides the obvious AI issues there already is a mm spec for necro called death magic

[Sigmoid.7082]

Would be a complete and utter waste of an elite spec.

[Dadnir.5038]

@"derd.6413" said:besides the obvious AI issues there already is a mm spec for necro called death magic

I wouldn't say that the issue only lie in the AI... Some of the minion's active skills also suffer from terrible design and the fact that they scale on the minion's stats and the associated traits tend to lack a bit of "logic".

Let's just say that before beginning to try and introduce a MM e-spec, it would be good to fix/mend the existing one.

[Schnuschnu.9857]

Only under one condition: the AI has to be controlled to be effective. No passive minion just doing damage. No one wants turret engi all over again.

[DuckDuckBOOM.4097]

@"mulzi.8273" said:as dumb as this may sound, i really wish they'd look at bit at GW1. I really miss the different types of golems you could use. The variety added fun and strategy to minions on which ones to use.

I also wish they would look to gw1 but not at minions themselves. Orders, mark ofPain and death nova gave minion builds an active dangerous playstyle instead of being a tanky easy mode in gw2. Death nova/magic has its own thread going so i won't comment on that here.

Offensive support elite spec.F1 Order of pain: 10% lf. Give bonus damage to 5 allies. DF etc adds burning and other shroud 1 procs.

If you have minions, this is now a "mm" spec despite not having actual minion utilities because you can buff them when you are solo. In teams, you're buffing allies.

F2 through f4 could be other order skills. F5 some kind of shroud proc.

GM trait that turns orders into personal "venom stacks" with 3 charges for those that want to be selfish.

[Dace.8173]

@ZDragon.3046 said:Yes because it would force them to develop whole new minions or totally revamp the old ones into decent ones. MY ONLY ISSUE IS the elite spec should have at least 1 option to be played without the need of the minions for those who dont want them with that being said.yesyesyes

Scrapper says hello.

Also, what the point of building a minion Elite and then say folks don't need to use minion? It would be counterproductive to do that.

[The Demonic Spirit.3157]

Being a summoner besides a vampire is the main reason I love to play as a necromancer in all games. I really love the MM Reaper zerker necro ( staff\GS ). Using blood fiend , bone minions , shadow fiend , Rise! and flesh golem . I really enjoy being the mighty one man army being. Getting an elite spec that is focused on MM would be certainly epic !

[Revanent.9715]

I certainly love the idea of more minions!But, I agree with Zdragon, in that there should be a way to play the build without minions, should someone choose.Besides that, I'm all for a minion based elite spec!

[Nimon.7840]

As long as it's not a necro spec I'm fine xD

[Dace.8173]

@Revanent.9715 said:I certainly love the idea of more minions!But, I agree with Zdragon, in that there should be a way to play the build without minions, should someone choose.Besides that, I'm all for a minion based elite spec!

Ok, I don't get this. Why would you play a minion focused Elite if you don't want minions? There are two other Elites and core Necro that doesn't focus on that aspect (not that I am making an argument for, just pointing that out). If the were to make a minion Elite and then tried to make so that it was playable without minions the final product would be an Elite spec that sucked at minions and unpowered without them. The entire point of such an Elite would be to provide a narrow focus on minions to make them more powerful and such builds more viable. Making it playable for those who don't want to run it with minions would dilute the overall Elite and would deliver a subpar product. Why ask for an Elite just to make it not effective at what it is supposed to be doing?

[Catchyfx.5768]

I voted NO only because we all know how bad AI pets works.

[Revanent.9715]

@Dace.8173 said:

@Revanent.9715 said:I certainly love the idea of more minions!But, I agree with Zdragon, in that there should be a way to play the build without minions, should someone choose.Besides that, I'm all for a minion based elite spec!

Ok, I don't get this. Why would you play a minion focused Elite if you don't want minions? There are two other Elites and core Necro that doesn't focus on that aspect (not that I am making an argument for, just pointing that out). If the were to make a minion Elite and then tried to make so that it was playable without minions the final product would be an Elite spec that sucked at minions and unpowered without them. The entire point of such an Elite would be to provide a narrow focus on minions to make them more powerful and such builds more viable. Making it playable for those who don't want to run it with minions would dilute the overall Elite and would deliver a subpar product. Why ask for an Elite just to make it not effective at what it is supposed to be doing?

I do want to play minions. I'm just saying i'm aware that there are others that don't. They can simply make the minions good enough that they don't need to lean heavily on traits to make them viable, which they need to do anyway, and they can do, which baffles me why they don't. Since minions have been popular on necro since before any of the expansions, a minion focused elite would be kind of fun. And I'd love to see some better AI, new pets (like skeletons or ghosts, as someone above mentioned), and perhaps each pet could have a small selection of skills they could fire on their own, on top of my command skill for them. Would be fun. At least for me.

As for how you could get a minion build, and get it to work without minions. There could be a trait that sacrifices the minions for stats, skills and other benefits, not unlike soulbeast. Then as for utility skills, the pets command skills could become your own, in that you would act in place of your minion. Or choose other utility skills (the old ones), if you like those better.

There are plenty of ways that anet could make minions work. They could make a lot of things work, if they wanted to. It's just a matter if they want to.

[Dace.8173]

@Revanent.9715 said:

@Dace.8173 said:

@Revanent.9715 said:I certainly love the idea of more minions!But, I agree with Zdragon, in that there should be a way to play the build without minions, should someone choose.Besides that, I'm all for a minion based elite spec!

Ok, I don't get this. Why would you play a minion focused Elite if you don't want minions? There are two other Elites and core Necro that doesn't focus on that aspect (not that I am making an argument for, just pointing that out). If the were to make a minion Elite and then tried to make so that it was playable without minions the final product would be an Elite spec that sucked at minions and unpowered without them. The entire point of such an Elite would be to provide a narrow focus on minions to make them more powerful and such builds more viable. Making it playable for those who don't want to run it with minions would dilute the overall Elite and would deliver a subpar product. Why ask for an Elite just to make it not effective at what it is supposed to be doing?

I do want to play minions. I'm just saying i'm aware that there are others that don't. They can simply make the minions good enough that they don't need to lean heavily on traits to make them viable, which they need to do anyway, and they can do, which baffles me why they don't. Since minions have been popular on necro since before any of the expansions, a minion focused elite would be kind of fun. And I'd love to see some better AI, new pets (like skeletons or ghosts, as someone above mentioned), and perhaps each pet could have a small selection of skills they could fire on their own, on top of my command skill for them. Would be fun. At least for me.

As for how you could get a minion build, and get it to work without minions. There could be a trait that sacrifices the minions for stats, skills and other benefits, not unlike soulbeast. Then as for utility skills, the pets command skills could become your own, in that you would act in place of your minion. Or choose other utility skills (the old ones), if you like those better.

There are plenty of ways that anet could make minions work. They could make a lot of things work, if they wanted to. It's just a matter if they want to.

AI across the game sucks. So it's not like Necromancer is special in that regard. If they stick close to their current pattern then I wouldn't really expect better AIs on the minions. Scrapper pretty much can tell you all about that. However, again, if you make an Elite that is for minions but you also make it good enough to be viable for non-minions then you are pretty much going to dilute the effectiveness of the minion Elite. It really doesn't make much sense being as how there are two other Elites and then core Necromancer for people who don't want to use minions. Why would you give people something they really want and then water it down?

Also, Soulbeast is not comparable. Soulbeast doesn't add a pet and then give you an option to take it away. Soulbeast allows you to take your pet that you already have and do something else with it. What you're asking for is to have two separate mechanics that don't compliment each other attached to an Elite that you want to have new minions that you could also pick skills with and then give them commands. I'm sure they could make minions work. However, after 6 years with the same bad AI I don't really think they are going to really deliver on that without them overhauling the entire pet AI system. I just think that if you ask them to give you a minion master Elite but also want it to be able to be just as good without using the minions that the Elite you get is going to be worse than the minion abilities you have now.

[Revanent.9715]

I've already addressed most of your arguments in my previous post, so I'm not really sure why you keep rounding back to AI sucks. Again, if they wanted to make it better, they could.

As for scrappers AI, which i see a lot of people talk about, it's worse than minions and rangers pets. And I wouldn't even really call gyros pets. At least not pets on the same level as minions or rangers. They are closer to the spirits that renegades summon.

As for soulbeast not being relevant, it actually is. Like here, rangers have people that hate their AI too, and for a long time have asked for a means to rid themselves of their pet, and get stats or skills in it's place. Soulbeast was a response to that. So, in regards to a minion elite, the spec could come with pets as our utility skills, that have their own skills they fire, but also a command skill they we tell them to fire. Not unlike how a ranger pet has it's own skills it can fire, then an f2 which we tell them to fire. Then you could have a trait, or series of traits (Or some other means if you prefer), that eliminates the pets for stats and control of the minions command skills. In an example, it would be like you select a trait so you no longer have minions. But lets say you have flesh golem on your bar. Then instead of summoning the golem, you would simply get access to charge, and you would charge in place of your golem, because you have the traits selected to eliminate minions.

To be clear, though. I'm not necessarily arguing for necro's to get a minion elite. More so that a minion elite would be cool, even if it was on another class, like mesmer, or elementalist, or something else. Anet just needs to give some love to our minions, and maybe some cooler skins, and I'd be happy on my necro.

Anyway, hope that helped.Have fun.

[DeathsProphet.7460]

I'd love to see an elite spec for necros that revolves around minions. However, I wouldn't want it to be the same braindead gameplay that current minions offer. I would want the necro's damage to come mainly from the minions with the player sacrificing his\her health to buff his minions and have notable effects. Also, allowing the necro to command his minions would be awesome and require more skill then allowing the a.i. to do all the work.

[Dace.8173]

@Revanent.9715 said:I've already addressed most of your arguments in my previous post, so I'm not really sure why you keep rounding back to AI sucks. Again, if they wanted to make it better, they could.

Because the AI sucks and saying they could change it doesn't actually address that it does in fact suck. If we were discussing Ranger and someone said the AI for pets sucks a statement that they could make it better doesn't change the reality that they have yet to actually do that. There are any number of things that they could change. Necromancer, in general, has a lot of issues that they could make better that they have yet to make better. Saying that they could make it better doesn't address the fact that it is not better. One can not just assume that they would make the AI better for the purpose of an Elite.

As for scrappers AI, which i see a lot of people talk about, it's worse than minions and rangers pets. And I wouldn't even really call gyros pets. At least not pets on the >same level as minions or rangers. They are closer to the spirits that renegades summon.

They are closer to pets than they are Renegades summons. Renegade summons don't use an AI in order to attack, you just drop it and it does it's thing automatically in the AOE field. Gyros, on the other hand, perform the same way pets do, only for a limited time span.

As for soulbeast not being relevant, it actually is. Like here, rangers have people that hate their AI too, and for a long time have asked for a means to rid themselves of their >pet, and get stats or skills in it's place. Soulbeast was a response to that. So, in regards to a minion elite, the spec could come with pets as our utility skills, that have their >own skills they fire, but also a command skill they we tell them to fire. Not unlike how a ranger pet has it's own skills it can fire, then an f2 which we tell them to fire. Then >you could have a trait, or series of traits (Or some other means if you prefer), that eliminates the pets for stats and control of the minions command skills. In an example, it >would be like you select a trait so you no longer have minions. But lets say you have flesh golem on your bar. Then instead of summoning the golem, you would simply get >access to charge, and you would charge in place of your golem, because you have the traits selected to eliminate minions.

Soulbeast is still not the same thing. Soulbeast is a single mechanic. You are talking about two to three separate mechanics. Soulbeast is not made to be good for people who don't want a pet and then people who do want a pet. It is narrowly focused on delivering a pet free experience. You can still run it with a pet but the strength of the build at that point relies on the strength of Ranger, not Soulbeast itself. The Soulbeast skills don't change based on whether or not you are using your pet or not. Your Stances work the same way, regardless of the status of the pet at that moment. Soulbeast is not a comparable Elite.

What you are basically suggesting is building two Elites into one Elite. A minion themed Elite should be about running minions. An Elite that gave you powers based on minion traits is really a completely separate kind of thing. In either case, devoting part of your mechanical power into giving a minionless minion master nifty powers means they took things that could have been feed into being an awesome minion master into being an ok minion master. The Elite would be balanced with both aspects in mind and not balanced as minion master and then balanced again as minionless minion master. Such a balancing will deliver a weaker experince than what a full on commited minion master Elite would have given them.

None of which address why folks who want to play a minion master should have their Elite watered down to accommodate something that a player can already do with Reaper, Scourge, and core Necromancer. It really shouldn't be important to give people who don't want to play minion master powers from an Elite that was not created for them in the first place. Or why people who don't want to run with minions should be given powers and abilities in an Elite that is clearly not aimed at them. People who don't want to play with minions already have more options than people who do want to play with minions. Why not focus on giving the folks who want a minion master experience a true minion master experience?

[Revanent.9715]

They can.

I was just trying to meet in the middle, so players who do want minions, and the ones that don't, can both get benefits from a new elite. Since whenever a new expansion drops, everyone is looking at the new build in hopes that can derive fun out of it. Old builds get stale after years of use. So new ones are looked at with hope. I was simply trying to devise a way where everyone could take enjoyment out of it, and be happy. Again, meet in the middle.

Your entire argument so far has been, AI sucks. Yet, it hasn't stopped most people from finding enjoyment with minions, or pets, despite this. On top of that, my argument still stands. They CAN make it better. Now, maybe they wont make it better. But they COULD if they wanted to, and they should. Since so many people clearly want it better, and have for a long time.

I still stand by soulbeast being a good comparison. It does accommodate those who like pets, and those who don't.

As for scrapper again, there really isn't much AI to them. 4/6 follow the scrapper, 1/6 is put down and just aoe's, 1/6 actually follows the target. They pretty much have the same AI as minipets.

As for the rest of this discussion. It seems mute. You don't like minions, and I do, and it appears neither of us will convince the other, so, seems pointless to continue.

[Dace.8173]

@Revanent.9715 said:They can.

I was just trying to meet in the middle, so players who do want minions, and the ones that don't, can both get benefits from a new elite. Since whenever a new expansion drops, everyone is looking at the new build in hopes that can derive fun out of it. Old builds get stale after years of use. So new ones are looked at with hope. I was simply trying to devise a way where everyone could take enjoyment out of it, and be happy. Again, meet in the middle.

Your entire argument so far has been, AI sucks. Yet, it hasn't stopped most people from finding enjoyment with minions, or pets, despite this. On top of that, my argument still stands. They CAN make it better. Now, maybe they wont make it better. But they COULD if they wanted to, and they should. Since so many people clearly want it better, and have for a long time.

I still stand by soulbeast being a good comparison. It does accommodate those who like pets, and those who don't.

As for scrapper again, there really isn't much AI to them. 4/6 follow the scrapper, 1/6 is put down and just aoe's, 1/6 actually follows the target. They pretty much have the same AI as minipets.

As for the rest of this discussion. It seems mute. You don't like minions, and I do, and it appears neither of us will convince the other, so, seems pointless to continue.

People enjoy a working and well balanced Elite more than they do one that tries to make everyone happy. Not everyone likes Reaper. Not everyone wants to play Scourge. Those Elites weren't made to meet folks in the middle. They were made to fit their theme. If you didn't like that theme then you played something else. Trying to meet in the middle is how you get bad mechanics and poor balance. I think you would find that most people would not be happy with an Elite that was medicore on the grounds that it was trying to meet folks in the middle.

Also, my argument hasn't been just AI sucks. To claim otherwise is to ignore everything else I've said on the matter and focus solely on one of many points made. I've made mention several times that there is no logical reason to give people a watered down version of a concept. I've also questioned why there should even be a middle ground, instead of a solid Elite aimed at the people who want to play amped up minion master. Though the bad AI is important. Despite how thematic Golemancer is for Engineer you will find few people who support the idea due to the fact that the AI's in this game sucks. Engineer players, in general, have pretty much shot down any suggested Elite that involves having an AI buddy. If something is based around having an AI the fact that it currently sucks, has sucked for six years, and they have passed on making it not suck are all important points to consider and work through. The fact that they can make it better doesn't change that they haven't made it better. They could also make Necromancer strong enough not to be the worse profession in the game. They haven't. The fact that people still run with the games AI doesn't mean that they don't suck. An argument based on what they can do isn't going to sway a lot of people when there are a great deal of things that they can do that they haven't done. In the realm of Necromancer alone, just getting the profession to a power level that won't get it autokicked for PvE content is something they can do but haven't done.

Soulbeast is still a bad comparison. The part of the profession that accommodates people who want to use the pet is the Ranger itself, not the Soulbeast. The Soulbeast doesn't do two separate things based on whether or not you run with a pet. If you run with a pet then you run it as a standard Ranger with no additional mechanics aside from the same Utilities that you would get if you joined with your pet. They are not comparable as the Soulbeast doesn't do what you are talking about. There isn't an option with Soulbeast where the Elite gives you a different set of powers if you decide not to use the Soulbeast mechanic. You are talking about giving a person who doesn't want to use minions on a minion master Elite their own separate powers and abilities. The two are nowhere near the same. To claim otherwise is to blatantly ignore how Soulbeast and Ranger actually works.

Also, I never said I didn't like minions. What I have said thus far is that the AI for it sucks and that I do not see a point in doing a minion based Elite and watering that Elite down so that it is less powerful than what it could be if it wasn't trying to meet folks in the middle (which no Elite does anyway). The basic question of why should folks be given a less powerful Elite to sastify people who don't want to play with minions hasn't actually been addressed.

[Revanent.9715]

First I'll remind you I'm not necessarily arguing for necromancers to get a minion elite. I want one, but necro doesn't really need one. Having minions on another class, as an elite, would be pretty cool.

Also, my argument hasn't been just AI sucks.Then you went on about how people hate how the AI sucks.

There isn't an option with Soulbeast where the Elite gives you a different set of powers if you decide not to use the Soulbeast mechanic.The trait that I was talking about earlier, would work exactly like how entering soulbeast does now. Soulbeast does give extra stats, and new skills. Namely your pets skills. This is how the trait would function, save on a more permanent basis, since you can't switch traits in combat, and all. Any traits affecting your pets, would affect you, and you would gain access to their command skills as your own. To elaborate further on my example in my previous post, I mentioned flesh golems charge as an example. Currently, you have to summon the golem to get access to charge. If you select the trait, the summon flesh golem disappears, and get direct access to charge as your own skill. Could also come with nifty things like condi removal and stun breaks, or whatever the dev team comes up with, to help them feel more like real utility skills.

Also, I never said I didn't like minions. What I have said thus far is that the AI for it sucks and that I do not see a point in doing a minion based Elite and watering that Elite down so that it is less powerful than what it could be if it wasn't trying to meet folks in the middle (which no Elite does anyway).I'm not really sure why you think this build would be watered down by a single trait. Using the necro as an example here, we would still get a new weapon that shouldn't be affected by this, new shroud (or whatever they decide) that shouldn't be affected, and a trait tree, where 8 out of the 9 selectable traits would still focus on either the weapon, new shroud, or minions. Which I've already mentioned that any traits affecting minions, would benefit you, should you select the trait that foregoes minions. So I'm not really seeing how this would be watered down.

The basic question of why should folks be given a less powerful Elite to sastify people who don't want to play with minions hasn't actually been addressed.Again, it has. To meet in the middle. I know you hate that answer, but this conversation is exactly the reason why to try. A lot of people like minions, and a lot of people don't. So if they did do a minion based elite, my suggestion, or maybe something better if someone comes up with it, could help people of either side enjoy the new build. Because it has a way for people who like minions to play with minions. And a way for people who don't like them, to enjoy it, too.

[perilisk.1874]

I think it would be interesting to have a spec which is a tanking/offensive support spec based on minions. Meaning, the minions aren't very useful at doing damage directly, but they try to draw aggro, then pulse boons as they get pounded.

[perilisk.1874]

@mulzi.8273 said:as dumb as this may sound, i really wish they'd look at bit at GW1. I really miss the different types of golems you could use. The variety added fun and strategy to minions on which ones to use.

Making an educated guess: seeing how they tweeked minions in the joko story on how you can control them, i'm guessing that is the direction they are looking for any minion style spec.minor spoiler>

Pikmancer. Sounds kind of fun. Maybe they replace shroud with limited-duration minions you spawn using LF, so you can just toss out a full bar of nothing but minions. Utilities would be necro banners, for directing your army.

[Knighthonor.4061]

I find it ironic how people trashing on Minion/ AI for Necromancer, when that was a big thing in GW1. So if they can make AI work in GW1 why cant they in this game as well if they wanted to?

[Dace.8173]

Then you went on about how people hate how the AI sucks.

I see, so you are opting to ignore the other points made in favor of pushing the narrowest view of what I've said.

The trait that I was talking about earlier, would work exactly like how entering soulbeast does now. Soulbeast does give extra stats, and new skills. Namely your pets skills. >This is how the trait would function, save on a more permanent basis, since you can't switch traits in combat, and all. Any traits affecting your pets, would affect you, and >you would gain access to their command skills as your own. To elaborate further on my example in my previous post, I mentioned flesh golems charge as an example. >Currently, you have to summon the golem to get access to charge. If you select the trait, the summon flesh golem disappears, and get direct access to charge as your own >skill. Could also come with nifty things like condi removal and stun breaks, or whatever the dev team comes up with, to help them feel more like real utility skills.

Still a bad comparison. The new pet skills you get are for when you are in Beastmode. You do not gain new skills for when you are not in Beastmode. You can play Soulbeast without going into Beast mode but as I have said, that plays on the strength of Ranger. Soulbeast itself does not add a seperate and unique skill package for people who play Soulbeast but do not use Beast mode.

I'm not really sure why you think this build would be watered down by a single trait. Using the necro as an example here, we would still get a new weapon that shouldn't >be affected by this, new shroud (or whatever they decide) that shouldn't be affected, and a trait tree, where 8 out of the 9 selectable traits would still focus on either the >weapon, new shroud, or minions. Which I've already mentioned that any traits affecting minions, would benefit you, should you select the trait that foregoes minions. So >I'm not really seeing how this would be watered down.

Mostly because I understand the general balance outlook of ANet, combined with the history of Necromancer to be able to say that what you are asking for would produce a watered down Elite. They wouldn't balance it as Minion Master with Minions and Minion Master without Minions. It would be balanced as Minion Master and the traits that are used to give the Minionless Minion Master would take up design space from the overall build. You're asking for two Elites for the price of one. That will come at a cost to overall efficiency to the Minion Master concept. People have this mistaken idea that you can have all these cool powers ontop of each other and it would still be awesome and good. Look at the past six years of Necromancer balance and you will see that doing what you want is going to deliver a weaker Minion Master than what could be had otherwise.

People who play Minion Master but don't want to play with Minions don't need accommodating.

Again, it has. To meet in the middle. I know you hate that answer, but this conversation is exactly the reason why to try. A lot of people like minions, and a lot of people >don't. So if they did do a minion based elite, my suggestion, or maybe something better if someone comes up with it, could help people of either side enjoy the new build. >Because it has a way for people who like minions to play with minions. And a way for people who don't like them, to enjoy it, too.

Thus far, no other Elite meets in the middle. There is no logical reason why there should even be a middle. The folks who don't like minions already have mechanical options and two Elites that they can play. Those folks shouldn't have any bearing in a conversation about satisfying the folks who like minions and want something more. Doing what you suggest will likely make only a handful of people happy. Any perceived shortcomings that such an Elite had would be blamed on them having to accommodate people who don't need accommodating. Those people shouldn't be important, yet for some bizarre reason you feel they are.

@Knighthonor.4061 said:I find it ironic how people trashing on Minion/ AI for Necromancer, when that was a big thing in GW1. So if they can make AI work in GW1 why cant they in this game as well if they wanted to?

Yeah, I really don't get why the AI is so weak in this game

[Jethro.9376]

I voted No

but

I could change my mind, if it would be a ranger like petsystem (1 or 2 pets at most) with a complete rework of Deathmagic.