Should shatters be removed/changed/replaced in the next elite spec?

[Salt Mode.3780]

The main issue with shatters is that they have progressively nerfed the clone's hp over time. What wouldve been a good change was core keeps original clone hp, chrono 75% hp of core's clones. and mirage 25% hp of core's clones.
As far as the next espec I honestly doubt mesmers will receive a OP spec now that CMC is working on the "balancing." They prob dont want to make the same mistakes they did with mirage.

[Tseison.4659]

@"Salt Mode.3780" said:The main issue with shatters is that they have progressively nerfed the clone's hp over time. What wouldve been a good change was core keeps original clone hp, chrono 75% hp of core's clones. and mirage 25% hp of core's clones.

As far as the next espec I honestly doubt mesmers will receive a OP spec now that CMC is working on the "balancing." They prob dont want to make the same mistakes they did with mirage.

Clone health isn't the issue...again, the evidence has been noted countless of times and just because 60% of people say shatters aren't just proves to me that A) people don't like change that actually progresses the class and B) a lot of people are naive as expected. In a PvP AND WvW scenario, clone health isn't gonna make them last any longer with all the heavy conditions and damage going on out there, and by no means are we even asking for anything OP for the 3rd Elite Spec, however, it sure as hell needs to be different than just exploding clones.

As I've mentioned and I'll also include what's been said by others a hundred times already is that:

14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

additionally, if a clone misses its target or the target dies before the shatter can go off or even shatter but the clones die before they even get there, that's dps LOST. I don't even care about the Mesmers in WvW who say we have good burst when roaming because unless your target is afk or not paying attention then you're "a threat," but even if you unleash your entire rotation, it only takes an evade, dodge, aegis, invul or whatever that mitigates damage to mess up your burst and then you have NOTHING to defend yourself with. Regardless, our dps is still tied to the clones and shatters and they're no better than a sneeze. Sorry but alongside @""Azazel.7536" and others, EoD needs to give us more personal damage and less shatter/clone damage.

[Junkpile.7439]

What ever. Main thing is that core can shatter so i can one hit enemies.

[Salt Mode.3780]

whatever the want is for mesmers i hope they dont make it brain dead dps class like every other class in the damn game. oh yea lemme just use my weapon skill to smash, very boring and non interactive gameplay.

[Mungo Zen.9364]

@Tseison.4659 said:As I've mentioned and I'll also include what's been said by others a hundred times already is that:14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

This is an interesting view on these Traits. DPS is a very narrow lens to decide if these Traits are worthwhile or not. I don't disagree that some of these traits are lackluster but saying that 11 of 14 Shatter traits are not even close to viable is really overselling your position. That you complain about being players being defenseless under a specific situation. I wonder if using some defensive or utility traits would help there..... hmm what are in those other 11 'not close to viable' traits include.... healing, condi cleanse, boonstrip, stabilty, clone generation, alacrity, quickness.....

Again, I do not disagree that some of these traits are lackluster, I am simply pointing out that while they don't all increase the DPS they do serve utility in the total Mesmer package.

[Tseison.4659]

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:As I've mentioned and I'll also include what's been said by others a hundred times already is that:14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

This is an interesting view on these Traits. DPS is a very narrow lens to decide if these Traits are worthwhile or not. I don't disagree that some of these traits are lackluster but saying that 11 of 14 Shatter traits are not even close to viable is really overselling your position. That you complain about being players being defenseless under a specific situation. I wonder if using some defensive or utility traits would help there..... hmm what are in those other 11 'not close to viable' traits include.... healing, condi cleanse, boonstrip, stabilty, clone generation, alacrity, quickness.....

Again, I do not disagree that some of these traits are lackluster, I am simply pointing out that while they don't all increase the DPS they do serve utility in the total Mesmer package.

I’m speaking in PvP/WvW terms which even if solo roaming, those boons and cleanses aren’t gonna mean much unless you’re running a hybrid with some boon increase. Regardless of what they serve as utility wise, that’s good for them, but I’m referring to damage mostly...

[Mungo Zen.9364]

@Tseison.4659 said:

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:As I've mentioned and I'll also include what's been said by others a hundred times already is that:14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

This is an interesting view on these Traits. DPS is a very narrow lens to decide if these Traits are worthwhile or not. I don't disagree that some of these traits are lackluster but saying that 11 of 14 Shatter traits are not even close to viable is really overselling your position. That you complain about being players being defenseless under a specific situation. I wonder if using some defensive or utility traits would help there..... hmm what are in those other 11 'not close to viable' traits include.... healing, condi cleanse, boonstrip, stabilty, clone generation, alacrity, quickness.....

Again, I do not disagree that some of these traits are lackluster, I am simply pointing out that while they don't all increase the DPS they do serve utility in the total Mesmer package.

I’m speaking in PvP/WvW terms which even if solo roaming, those boons and cleanses aren’t gonna mean much unless you’re running a hybrid with some boon increase. Regardless of what they serve as utility wise, that’s good for them, but I’m referring to damage mostly...

You are referring to damage only it appears. Perhaps you would benefit from trying a different profession that offers higher DPS in WvW and PvP? Why suggest sweeping changes to Mesmer that guts the core of it's prof mechanic in the name of DPS and DPS only, when there are 8 other professions you can play that don't use Shatters or Clones?

[Salt Mode.3780]

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:

@Mungo Zen.9364 said:

@Tseison.4659 said:As I've mentioned and I'll also include what's been said by others a hundred times already is that:14 traits for shatters, only 3 of them increase shatter damage and the rest are just “other,” aka not even close to being viable.5 traits that involve our illusions and yet only 3 of them are towards increasing their damage.5 traits that all summon a clone and they’re all useless except for deceptive evasion.

This is an interesting view on these Traits. DPS is a very narrow lens to decide if these Traits are worthwhile or not. I don't disagree that some of these traits are lackluster but saying that 11 of 14 Shatter traits are not even close to viable is really overselling your position. That you complain about being players being defenseless under a specific situation. I wonder if using some defensive or utility traits would help there..... hmm what are in those other 11 'not close to viable' traits include.... healing, condi cleanse, boonstrip, stabilty, clone generation, alacrity, quickness.....

Again, I do not disagree that some of these traits are lackluster, I am simply pointing out that while they don't all increase the DPS they do serve utility in the total Mesmer package.

I’m speaking in PvP/WvW terms which even if solo roaming, those boons and cleanses aren’t gonna mean much unless you’re running a hybrid with some boon increase. Regardless of what they serve as utility wise, that’s good for them, but I’m referring to damage mostly...

You are referring to damage only it appears. Perhaps you would benefit from trying a different profession that offers higher DPS in WvW and PvP? Why suggest sweeping changes to Mesmer that guts the core of it's prof mechanic in the name of DPS and DPS only, when there are 8 other professions you can play that don't use Shatters or Clones?

Exactly what I meant by stop trying to make mesmer another brain dead dps class, instead focus on working on how shatters are landed or how to improve clones etc.

[Mystique.6793]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:41 AM, Jokubas.4265 said:

I haven't voted because I'm not really sure how to categorize my opinion yet.

I would love to see something more bold with the next Elite Specialization. I'm also not sure how feasible it is. In a lot of ways, the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer has a foundational flaw that would require a major rework to properly deal with.

(Disclaimer: While my ability to solo shows me that I'm not terrible at the game, I regularly see players, even other Mesmers, doing a lot better than me, so I'm clearly not great at builds either.)

Here's the thing. Whether you like them or not, the Shatter skills are our F skills. They're supposed to be our main feature.

The problem is... it's backwards? Shatter skills are the finisher to a specific kind of build, not the pieces that you use to make a combo that you finish with your build.

When I first started playing, I prioritized setting up my Phantasms and almost never touched my F skills. Nowadays, I have a much more efficient Shatter build, but it's a very narrow build in order to keep the Shatters going. It doesn't really make sense that the main feature of the class limits your build.

Looking back, I think it would make more sense if it was the F skills that dealt with your illusions, and Shatters be on the weapons or utilities. For instance:F1: Summons a clone that does no damage but looks like you. Short cooldown.F2: Summons a phantasm with your current weapon. Deals damage but is transparent. Moderate cooldown.F3: Randomly shuffles the position of you and your illusions. Moderate cooldown.

Then the F skills would properly involve the main feature of the class, the illusions, while allowing a variety of builds that utilize the illusions in different ways. Instead of the F skills being something that works best with certain builds, and doesn't mesh well with one of the class' actual main features: the phantasm illusions. This would smooth out the access all builds have to the core feature, and make the question what you do with the main feature, instead of the question being whether or not the F skills even make sense with your build.

This would also have opened up the Elite Specializations the freedom to play much more heavily with the main feature of the class (without necessarily replacing it entirely). The Mirage's Mirage Mirror skills would have been great F replacements in this situation as things that fill a similar role but reimagine that part of the class. In the above example, instead of summoning a clone at the location, it could summon a Mirage Mirror.Chronomancer could have handled this in a couple of ways. Either the clones and phantasms could have altered, time-based gimmicks (like the summoned phantasm now repeats your last skill specifically instead of just making an attack based on the weapon), or it could have replaced the clones and phantasms entirely with something like: "Summons a Continuum Rift that resets the position of the first ally or enemy that steps within it."

In such a situation, we could also get a more Guild Wars 1-themed Elite Specialization that replaces the physical illusions with directly debuffing versions of them (like the reverse barrier idea mentioned earlier).

Incidentally, one thing that's always bugged me about the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer's illusions is that... they're not illusions. In Guild Wars 1, they tormented your target, but were otherwise imaginary. In Guild Wars 2, they physically exist for some reason, and it's a weird balance problem. Why do illusions need health or be targetable to begin with (at least any that doesn't just reflect your own for the sake of deception)? How do you root something that doesn't actually exist? How do you damage a person who isn't really there? There are other ways to balance them, like the now-existing-anyway idea of phantasms going away after one attack, or even something like all illusions disperse upon the Mesmer being downed (which would require rebalancing other aspects of the Mesmer, but actually fits really well into the flavor of the usual result when an illusionist finally has their real self sussed out).

I really love your idea for the F skills. So sad we're unlikely to get any kind of rework like that. :c I still enjoy the class but so much potential wasted. I was really intrigued when the mirage mirrors were first mentioned and the same for the idea of a chronomancer, but then in reality the 2 elites weren't very class altering at all, well not to the same degree as some of the other profession elite mechanics. 

As for OP, I'd love shatters to be altered in some way, but I'm not sure how. I definitely don't like how clunky the 'running to the enemy and shattering' is with clones. It didn't bother me much when playing chrono because they could do it so quickly, but without that trait it's so slow. 

Edited May 6, 2021 by Mystique.6793

[Tseison.4659]

12 hours ago, Mystique.6793 said:As for OP, I'd love shatters to be altered in some way, but I'm not sure how. I definitely don't like how clunky the 'running to the enemy and shattering' is with clones. It didn't bother me much when playing chrono because they could do it so quickly, but without that trait it's so slow. 

I understand where you’re coming from! It makes me feel like that trait should be already built in, especially how fast pace things are in PvP/WvW.

[Quadox.7834]

On 3/13/2021 at 10:41 AM, Jokubas.4265 said:

I haven't voted because I'm not really sure how to categorize my opinion yet.

I would love to see something more bold with the next Elite Specialization. I'm also not sure how feasible it is. In a lot of ways, the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer has a foundational flaw that would require a major rework to properly deal with.

(Disclaimer: While my ability to solo shows me that I'm not terrible at the game, I regularly see players, even other Mesmers, doing a lot better than me, so I'm clearly not great at builds either.)

Here's the thing. Whether you like them or not, the Shatter skills are our F skills. They're supposed to be our main feature.

The problem is... it's backwards? Shatter skills are the finisher to a specific kind of build, not the pieces that you use to make a combo that you finish with your build.

When I first started playing, I prioritized setting up my Phantasms and almost never touched my F skills. Nowadays, I have a much more efficient Shatter build, but it's a very narrow build in order to keep the Shatters going. It doesn't really make sense that the main feature of the class limits your build.

Looking back, I think it would make more sense if it was the F skills that dealt with your illusions, and Shatters be on the weapons or utilities. For instance:F1: Summons a clone that does no damage but looks like you. Short cooldown.F2: Summons a phantasm with your current weapon. Deals damage but is transparent. Moderate cooldown.F3: Randomly shuffles the position of you and your illusions. Moderate cooldown.

Then the F skills would properly involve the main feature of the class, the illusions, while allowing a variety of builds that utilize the illusions in different ways. Instead of the F skills being something that works best with certain builds, and doesn't mesh well with one of the class' actual main features: the phantasm illusions. This would smooth out the access all builds have to the core feature, and make the question what you do with the main feature, instead of the question being whether or not the F skills even make sense with your build.

This would also have opened up the Elite Specializations the freedom to play much more heavily with the main feature of the class (without necessarily replacing it entirely). The Mirage's Mirage Mirror skills would have been great F replacements in this situation as things that fill a similar role but reimagine that part of the class. In the above example, instead of summoning a clone at the location, it could summon a Mirage Mirror.Chronomancer could have handled this in a couple of ways. Either the clones and phantasms could have altered, time-based gimmicks (like the summoned phantasm now repeats your last skill specifically instead of just making an attack based on the weapon), or it could have replaced the clones and phantasms entirely with something like: "Summons a Continuum Rift that resets the position of the first ally or enemy that steps within it."

In such a situation, we could also get a more Guild Wars 1-themed Elite Specialization that replaces the physical illusions with directly debuffing versions of them (like the reverse barrier idea mentioned earlier).

Incidentally, one thing that's always bugged me about the Guild Wars 2 Mesmer's illusions is that... they're not illusions. In Guild Wars 1, they tormented your target, but were otherwise imaginary. In Guild Wars 2, they physically exist for some reason, and it's a weird balance problem. Why do illusions need health or be targetable to begin with (at least any that doesn't just reflect your own for the sake of deception)? How do you root something that doesn't actually exist? How do you damage a person who isn't really there? There are other ways to balance them, like the now-existing-anyway idea of phantasms going away after one attack, or even something like all illusions disperse upon the Mesmer being downed (which would require rebalancing other aspects of the Mesmer, but actually fits really well into the flavor of the usual result when an illusionist finally has their real self sussed out).

Interesting and good points