Suggestions to the Balance Team towards the PVE

[Brynioch.1873]

@Scipion.7548 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:WoW is exactly the same. From the first 20 Sargeras Mystic kills 19 of them used druids as tanks (not the first raid of the expansion). There will be always an optimal way to play. You can change it but you can't remove it. Removing unique buffs just makes it worse. With unique buffs you have a reason to take classes even if they are not on the top. Without it just pick the best and rotate whatever the best of the current patch is.

On WoW, 1% of the raid groups use the very optimal way to play.On GW2, 99% of the raid groups use the very optimal way to play.On WoW, the 36 specs are allowed to raid (in all difficulties).On GW2, sometimes even some classes aren't allowed to raid.

Stop comparing the average raid group of GW2 and the raid group of WoW participating to the first kill server race. I was an hardcore player in an hardcore guild and we never refused someone because of his class, even when we were first of the server. And this was during WOTLK, today it is even more balanced.

Stop throwing around percentages especially when everyone knows that they are wrong....

Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars. The classes just change more frequently because of the item scaling. There are servers that get their server firsts in the next expansion. It says nothing about the setup if you are overgeared. Not a thing in Guild Wars.

There are no classes that are not allowed to raid. There are pugs that kick you, but pugs are nothing a raid is measured. Most PUGs in WoW search for a itemlevel to outgear the raid, of course it doesn't matter then what you take. The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

[nsleep.7839]

It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

At the same time, I never saw a game where everyone is so much of metasheep as this one, even a lot of static groups will follow qT guides blindly even if the setup don't work for them and refuse to adjust one or two roles to something that isn't meta even if it might make the run smoother for them. Let's not even talk about pugs because these are the ultimate meta-nazis.

[TexZero.7910]

@nsleep.7839 said:It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

This literally cannot happen until we remove the sheer amount of passive power in the game. The current meta we have is stack all the strong passive status, then get 24/7 boon uptime. This has to change for use to see any real composition changes.

[SmashGd.1056]

Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

[vicious.5683]

You can be sure of two things when speaking about Anet balance team:

1. WoW balance seems perfect when compared to GW2 balance.
2. You know a balance team stinks, when a single class has been neglected for 5 years in dungeons/raids.

[Rain.7543]

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rain.7543 said:Reading some points in your post OP I have to wonder... do we play the same game? What taunt skills? The only instance when CC is used is to break CC bars. Such taunt mechanic doesnt even exist in raids, so you genarally ask the devs to completely rework some of the basic mechanics and how raids function at its core, which alone will require a MASSIVE amount of work. No, thanks. I rather have the small raid and fractals teams focus on getting new content out. Also what bosses are there that would require 2 tanks at the same time and even if they did how is that going to help at all with build diversity, considering the monopoly chronos have on tanking and for good reason? Consider that even if alacrity and quickness gets nerfec, chronos will still be laregely prefered as tanks. They arent just alacrity/quickness bots. They bring much more on the table, as far as utility and team support goes. Are we again playing the same game? Mind also explain to me how you will kill Xera without any healer at all, or any boss at all for that matter?

As far, as Weaver goes 47k dps on golem is a qT benchmark. Outside of the hardcore raiding groups a large percent of the Ele's fail to reach even half that number and thats on golem, let alone in real raid scenario, so Weaver is far from the most prefered dps option at the moment. Quite the opposite - the dps spots now are more devirsed then ever - you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems (excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally)

You dont really ask for balance, no. From what I've gathered from your post you are asking for complete rework on how raids and fractals function, so you can play your necro. I've seen a lot of people asking for massive changes and balances, so they can play whatever they want in raids. The reality is... that really cant happen in high level challenging content, because no matter what balances Anet do, players will always come up with most effecient team comps, and that will inevitably leave some classes out of the meta. META's arent something unique to Guild wars 2 either, you have those in almost any MMO that ever existed. But also META is not the only way to play, its the way to go if you want to be most efficient in your gameplay, but you can do pretty smooth raid clears with a lot of different raids setups, which arent META.

Who cares about bad players not adapting to the class. I'm talking about competitive and not casuals! People in my guild hit the benchmark of qT and do way more DPS than they did on Tempest on power favored bosses which are the most bosses in raids and 95% of the fractals. Ya have no idea what ya're talking about when ya tell me I don't have to go META. META=most efficient tactics available. In WoW there's not much of META.Ya just said ya can clear raids but "(excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally) ". so yer argument goes to trashcan. Those bosses are part of the game and ya can't ignore 'em. Can ya do KC mid with 4 Necros? Can ya do Sloth 3 Mushrooms Sloth with DD Power? Can ya do Xera middle with 2 rangers and 2 engineers? Why can't I do perform hardcore tactics with those classes? ya know why? cuz NO BALANCE BETWEEN CLASSES AND BUILDS!Also about xera I killed Xera middle with any healer. 4 tempest f/a staff, 2 condi druids, 1 minstrel chrono, 1 power chrono and 2 CPS. So don't tell me ya need healers for faceroll content.Why would the devs actually do a massive load of work when they can design some useless skin in the gemstore and sell it for money. Gemstore is more important than balance and healthy gameplay in both hardcore and casual PvE.aslo " you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems"????????? are ya kidding me? necro prefered over tempest? It was maybe prefered in W4, Matthias and Sabetha yes before the "fix" now it's just completely useless and no one takes it anymore. even qT removed it from benchmark and necro doesn't even exist as valid PvE choice anymore. Power any ranger, thief, warr, mesmer and rev don't exist at all. Even LFG won't take 'em since they're useless and can't perform any significant DPS.Ya clearly don't know what ya're talking about when ya said necro is prefered over weaver on most bosses. Do yer homework before saying such BS.

First of all, go drink some cold water to cool off or something. Did I ever said necro would be prefered in META or even most groups opposed to the more potent dps classes? No, I didnt. I said Guild wars 2 raids arent THAT challenging that you always need to go full META to get a clear. So you can pretty much bring even four necros and still clear MOST bosses, it wont efficient, it wont be as fast, but you can still do it. Most efficient team comps are used for speed clears or low man raids, but not everyone care about that. Hell I've done VG kill with 8 crangers and 2 druids. No quickness, no alacrity, no might and we still killed with 3 minutes left on timer. So clearly the one who doesnt know what he is talking about is you. As for Sloth and KC, those have specific mechanics that just make condi useless, opposed to power burst builds. To make condi more viable option on those Anet will need to entirely rework the bosses mechanics.

As for Xera - in your first post you said NO HEALER at all. So here's newsflash for you - Cdruids are still healers and you can perfectly do most bosses (except maybe Deimos, Matt), without any magi druid whatsoever. And why wouldnt you able to do mid Xera with 2 rangers and 2 engi's if they hit dps uptime? Honestly i think you need to loose up a bit, maybe sleep over and come again to see the nonsenses you are typing down. Balance while no perfect, especially with the new specs that just flooded in, is in pretty good place, just like build diversity and the classes you can clear raids with. I just even started seeing revs showing in some groups, which were unthink of before. Balance is a tricky thing to do, and there isnt such a thing, as perfect balance. But right now balance and class/build diversity is much better when we had only 4 tempest perma locked in the dps slots.

[Scipion.7548]

@nsleep.7839 said:It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

@Miellyn.6847 said:Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse, the big bad wow has item spiral :anguished: the big bad wow is much older :( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

[OnizukaBR.8537]

So like in WoW you would prefer class homonization across the board, so everyone does the same thing but just with different animations right?If you want WoW go to play WoW, but you wont because GW2 is better, and it is because its not like WoW.

[Brynioch.1873]

@Scipion.7548 said:

@nsleep.7839 said:It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

@Miellyn.6847 said:Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse,

the big bad wow has item spiral

:anguished:

the big bad wow is much older

:( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

[Feanor.2358]

@Scipion.7548 said:

@nsleep.7839 said:It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

That's an interesting angle, but it leads to either homogenization of all classes (meaning less class identity) or lack of real balance. Which one do you prefer?

[Scipion.7548]

@Miellyn.6847 said:http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

The difference is about 12% when taking the best spec of each classes. Can you say there is a 12% of difference between the best build of each classes of GW2 ?

So like in WoW you would prefer class homonization across the board

There is a difference between homogeneization and balance. Homogeneization = all classes use the same way. Balance = all classes lead to the same chance of success.

If you want WoW go to play WoW, but you wont because GW2 is better, and it is because its not like WoW.

I dont play GW2 instead of WoW because GW2 is better but because I play WoW since vanilla and search something new and fresh (and also balanced and with professionnal devs, I hope).

That's an interesting angle, but it leads to either homogenization of all classes (meaning less class identity) or lack of real balance. Which one do you prefer?

I admit that perfect balance don't exist, it's an ideal, but even without homogenization of all classes you can have a game that is enough balanced to permit the players to play the class and even the spec they want if they don't aim the top 0,1%. There is a balance between the balance and the homogenization.In fact what is frustrating is not the lack of balance of GW2, it is the fact that Anet doesn't seem to aim the ideal of balance.

[OriOri.8724]

@SmashGd.1056 said:Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

[Zenith.7301]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Zenith.7301 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:Are you seriously comparing the balance of an expansion which is out for over 1 year (August 30th, 2016. Legion release), with one that is out for 4 weeks (Sept. 22nd, 2017).

Wow, just wow. That's bias right there.

How about you pull some benchmarks from WoW 4 weeks post launch of Legion as comparison?

That's not even getting into all the issues of how streamlined and normalised all of WoWs classes are by now as well as itemisation, etc. etc.

still each 1 day expansion in wow was more balanced than gw2 way way more. more options were for dps and still 4 tanks were good and same for healers like 5 option for healers. HoT was like 2 years and didn't manage to balance the necro or other specs which were useless. legion had balance on the first day than HoT after 2 years and GW2 core of 3 years all together.

You are so biased, it's insulting to WoW players (and uninformed at that, which is even worse).

How balanced was warrior tank at release of Legion? Compared to Death Knight?

How balanced is resto druid compared to other healers?

I could go on but honestly, why bother. You have already shown you have 0 clue of WoW meta and how it works.

Blizzard does a balance roulet which let's every class be on top for a while. WoW is nothing but unbalanced, and that's by design.

so 2 years of HoT was more balanced than 1 day of legion or cataclysm right????????

That's beside the point. The games are completely different. Blizzard gets to reinvent and remake their class balance and fix the issues they create with each expansion. They've also normalised and taken all uniquness out of their class system to streamline and provide content faster ever since WotlK. Also no, every single expansion there has huge outliers in balance, and that's with a team and financial means which are far beyond Arenanets.

GW2 actually has unique classes with unique playstyles and buffs/mechanics and due to its not increasing level cap and gear cap is a way more difficult monster to balance.

Those are the things you are leaving out in your rant which make a huge difference.

I'm sorry, but that's beyond ignorant.

WoW has more classes total with as much as 3 viable specs per class, which play completely differently from each spec. I can't believe you would make a statement like this.

Yes, keep focusing on quantity over quality. I've experienced Blizzards balance skills often enough both in a high end pve enviroment and pvp enviroment.

Coming to a different game and braggin abaout how good it is is beyond ignorant. Want me to share a link to the Blizzard official forums?

Put off the rose tinted glasses. They make you talk funny.

That you would even say a demonhunter plays the same as a death knight or a shadow priest to an elemental shaman or a combat rogue to a survival hunter tells me how little you actually know of what you're talking about.

I never said so, but since we are comparing: are you implying GW2 classes play similar?

I said they normalised skills accross multiple classes (especially healing and support). There is a difference there. There is no unique skills for any WoW class any longer. It makes balance a lot easier.

No, they haven't. A holy paladin heals rather differently from a discipline priest or a resto shaman. The most similar healers are holy priest and resto druid, and it's a passing resemblance.

The difference being the delta in performance among GW2 DPS specs is terribly large compared to WoW's current expansions. It's not even close to claim homogenization. Only group buffs equivalent of auras were homogenized.

[Daffan.8924]

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:From a game without a trinity, to a game with one of the strictest versions of it.In other mmorpgs you need a tank, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a chronomancer.In other mmorpgs you need a healer, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a druid

I know that it's very possible to finish Raids without those, and for example Tempest healer is better healer than Druid.But this is the most optimal way to play and unfortunately we've seen nothing from the developers to change it, even after adding 9 new elite specs to the game.

WoW is exactly the same. From the first 20 Sargeras Mystic kills 19 of them used druids as tanks (not the first raid of the expansion). There will be always an optimal way to play. You can change it but you can't remove it. Removing unique buffs just makes it worse. With unique buffs you have a reason to take classes even if they are not on the top. Without it just pick the best and rotate whatever the best of the current patch is.

Difference is the vast majority (99%) of WoW population, even Mythic raiders don't give two craps about World First composition like rerolling 15 boomkins, or changing entire roster to Guardian tanks/only pugging Guardian tanks, or only taking Havoc DH for mythic +. Hell, their main tank might have alts but they'l run at least 1 warrior/dk/pala OT for fun/differences.

There is no class that is worthless to bring. There is no spec that is worthless to bring. There is no class that is 100% required stacking like Chrono/Warrior.

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Scipion.7548 said:

@nsleep.7839 said:It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

@Miellyn.6847 said:Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse,

the big bad wow has item spiral

:anguished:

the big bad wow is much older

:( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

Noxxic is garbage. Icy Veins ftw.

[Feanor.2358]

@Scipion.7548 said:I admit that perfect balance don't exist, it's an ideal, but even without homogenization of all classes you can have a game that is enough balanced to permit the players to play the class and even the spec they want if they don't aim the top 0,1%.

You can pretty much do that now. Every class can be built to deal enough damage to cover the needs for a dps slot, pretty much regardless of content. Alternative support specs also exist, although not nearly as popular. Now, if you want to play a spec which you like as flavor but doesn't really work as game mechanics, that's just unreasonable. No game will let you do that in high-end content.

[Raif.9507]

@Daffan.8924 said:

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:From a game without a trinity, to a game with one of the strictest versions of it.In other mmorpgs you need a tank, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a chronomancer.In other mmorpgs you need a healer, but many builds fit the role, in gw2 you need a druid

I know that it's very possible to finish Raids without those, and for example Tempest healer is better healer than Druid.But this is the most optimal way to play and unfortunately we've seen nothing from the developers to change it, even after adding 9 new elite specs to the game.

WoW is exactly the same. From the first 20 Sargeras Mystic kills 19 of them used druids as tanks (not the first raid of the expansion). There will be always an optimal way to play. You can change it but you can't remove it. Removing unique buffs just makes it worse. With unique buffs you have a reason to take classes even if they are not on the top. Without it just pick the best and rotate whatever the best of the current patch is.

Difference is the vast majority (99%) of WoW population, even Mythic raiders don't give two craps about World First composition like rerolling 15 boomkins, or changing entire roster to Guardian tanks/only pugging Guardian tanks, or only taking Havoc DH for mythic +. Hell, their main tank might have alts but they'l run at least 1 warrior/dk/pala OT for fun/differences.

There is no class that is worthless to bring. There is no spec that is worthless to bring. There is no class that is 100% required stacking like Chrono/Warrior.

@Miellyn.6847 said:

@Scipion.7548 said:

@nsleep.7839 said:It might be just me, but I like the idea of having optimal compositions for different bosses, having to changing builds and such in this game where it's really easy to level and gear alts.

It would be interesting for me in a game where you are not supposed to be deeply attached to your characters (like a moba). But GW2 is a mmo...RPG, and because of this we should be allowed to play only one character in raid, open pve, pvp and wvw, without suffering negative effects.

@Miellyn.6847 said:Class discrimination during the first race is WAY harder in WoW than in Guild Wars.

Do you ever suffered class discrimination on WoW since WOTLK ? I don't. Always played the class and the spec I liked, even when I was an hardcore gamer in a guild racing for the first server place. But ok, even if you are true about the first server race, forget the guilds aiming the first server place, can you answer to this question :In which game do you have the highest chance to suffer class discrimination and role discrimination in an average guild/raiding group some months after the first server, WoW or GW2 ?

The balancing is as bad in WoW as in Guild Wars it just doesn't show as much in PUGs because of the item spiral. It is not comparabel.

If it doesn't show as much in WoW compared to GW2, Blizzard does a better job than Anet, whatever the reason. Anet has an excuse,

the big bad wow has item spiral

:anguished:

the big bad wow is much older

:( ? I don't care about excuses. I'm a consummer wanting a balanced game, or at least a game that seems balanced. I'm a consummer wanting to play the class I like for the available content I like. Like in WoW.

http://www.noxxic.com/wow/dps-rankings/

WoW has a wooping 25% difference between the top and the bottom. There goes your balancing myth. The start of each expansion is way worse. The only reason it doesn't exist that much in PUGs is the item spiral, you can compensate weak classes with better equip.

Noxxic is garbage. Icy Veins ftw.

And for what point they want to make... Noxxic and icy Veins both are useless (though at least Icy Veins isn't trash). Warcraftlogs would make that point way better and shows a much smaller gap https://www.warcraftlogs.com/statistics/13#dataset=99.

Either way, no one but around 5 guilds compete for World First races and class stack during it to make world first. Once Mythic kills go out and strats are done, class diversity even in mythic guilds, expands.

Saying a class isn't viable because there are none in World Firsts in WoW is... stupid. World First races use as many bugs, "exploits", and unintended uses of mechanics to get that first kill and those guilds have 5 characters ready to go and swap per boss in those races.

[Scipion.7548]

@Feanor.2358 said:You can pretty much do that now. Every class can be built to deal enough damage to cover the needs for a dps slot, pretty much regardless of content. Alternative support specs also exist, although not nearly as popular. Now, if you want to play a spec which you like as flavor but doesn't really work as game mechanics, that's just unreasonable. No game will let you do that in high-end content.

No game let me play an idiot spec in high-end content yes. But most games simply just provides working specs to the players. GW2 provides a ton of things but just 1% of those things are working. WoW provides 3 ways to play a class (4 for the druid and 2 for the DH) while GW2 provides officially an infinite number of way to play but in the end there 0 to 1 way to play a class in raid, pvp, fractal, etc.

Is it so strange to want a play a healer guardian or tank warrior ? Is it unreasonable ? Yes probably in this game, but don't you think a game is stupid if the warrior can't tank (but the pink light armored wizard can) and the cleric guy can't heal (but the beastmaster guy can) ? Some things are unreasonable in this game but shouldn't. If this game would be well done, warrior tank would be a thing, and at least one third of the classes could be tanks and one third could be healers. I mean tanks and healers accepted by 99% of the raiding groups/guilds, like on wow.

[Warlyx.6732]

@OriOri.8724 said:

@SmashGd.1056 said:Nerf the dickens out of chronomancer so other tank models can compete. And stop nerfin scourges utility and support and lower the damage.

Ok, and what are you going to give chronomancer in return?

mesmer as a whole u mean because chrono is whats left for Mesmer to do any group content

[Cyninja.2954]

@Scipion.7548 said:

@Feanor.2358 said:You can pretty much do that now. Every class can be built to deal enough damage to cover the needs for a dps slot, pretty much regardless of content. Alternative support specs also exist, although not nearly as popular. Now, if you want to play a spec which you like as flavor but doesn't really work as game mechanics, that's just unreasonable. No game will let you do that in high-end content.

No game let me play an idiot spec in high-end content yes.

But most games simply just provides working specs to the players.

GW2 provides a ton of things but just 1% of those things are working. WoW provides 3 ways to play a class (4 for the druid and 2 for the DH) while GW2 provides officially an infinite number of way to play but in the end there 0 to 1 way to play a class in raid, pvp, fractal, etc.

Is it so strange to want a play a healer guardian or tank warrior ? Is it unreasonable ? Yes probably in this game, but don't you think a game is stupid if the warrior can't tank (but the pink light armored wizard can) and the cleric guy can't heal (but the beastmaster guy can) ?

Some things are unreasonable in this game but shouldn't.

If this game would be well done, warrior tank would be a thing, and at least one third of the classes could be tanks and one third could be healers. I mean tanks and healers accepted by 99% of the raiding groups/guilds, like on wow.

This has more to do with how GW2 is designed from the ground up (without a trinity) than with class balance.

You are effectively complaining that there is no tank role offered to multiple classes. That's because the game was never designed with having classes tank in the first place. Thus comaring this to WoW and complaining is like going to a bank and complaining that you can't buy fruit there. Sure you might get offered some coffee at the bank, but you will never get more than that.

While raids have seen a sort of soft trinity emerge and arenanet have moved more in a direction of support builds, you can't remake an entire game from the ground up.

I'll save you a lot of heartache: you will never see a hard trinity in GW2. Better leave now and rejoin for GW3, or addapt and accept GW2 for what it is.

EDIT: seeing people in this thread talk about tanking makes me believe most here haven't set 1 step into raids and are just complaining for complaining sake. Tanking is not needed in 99% of GW2.

EDIT 2: and noticing the time it is again, yes I get it, WoW hasn't had significant new content or expansion come out for over 1 year and the next expansion is not even announced yet. So people spill over into other games and try to enjoy themselves. This has happened in the past, and people then too wanted to make GW2 into a WoW clone. It didn't happen then, it won't happen now. I hate to bring the "please leave back to WoW card" but seriously, some people in this thread might be a lot happier with a game more similar to WoW. FF14 is pretty good in that regard.

[Draco.9480]

@Rain.7543 said:

@Draco.9480 said:

@Rain.7543 said:Reading some points in your post OP I have to wonder... do we play the same game? What taunt skills? The only instance when CC is used is to break CC bars. Such taunt mechanic doesnt even exist in raids, so you genarally ask the devs to completely rework some of the basic mechanics and how raids function at its core, which alone will require a MASSIVE amount of work. No, thanks. I rather have the small raid and fractals teams focus on getting new content out. Also what bosses are there that would require 2 tanks at the same time and even if they did how is that going to help at all with build diversity, considering the monopoly chronos have on tanking and for good reason? Consider that even if alacrity and quickness gets nerfec, chronos will still be laregely prefered as tanks. They arent just alacrity/quickness bots. They bring much more on the table, as far as utility and team support goes. Are we again playing the same game? Mind also explain to me how you will kill Xera without any healer at all, or any boss at all for that matter?

As far, as Weaver goes 47k dps on golem is a qT benchmark. Outside of the hardcore raiding groups a large percent of the Ele's fail to reach even half that number and thats on golem, let alone in real raid scenario, so Weaver is far from the most prefered dps option at the moment. Quite the opposite - the dps spots now are more devirsed then ever - you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems (excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally)

You dont really ask for balance, no. From what I've gathered from your post you are asking for complete rework on how raids and fractals function, so you can play your necro. I've seen a lot of people asking for massive changes and balances, so they can play whatever they want in raids. The reality is... that really cant happen in high level challenging content, because no matter what balances Anet do, players will always come up with most effecient team comps, and that will inevitably leave some classes out of the meta. META's arent something unique to Guild wars 2 either, you have those in almost any MMO that ever existed. But also META is not the only way to play, its the way to go if you want to be most efficient in your gameplay, but you can do pretty smooth raid clears with a lot of different raids setups, which arent META.

Who cares about bad players not adapting to the class. I'm talking about competitive and not casuals! People in my guild hit the benchmark of qT and do way more DPS than they did on Tempest on power favored bosses which are the most bosses in raids and 95% of the fractals. Ya have no idea what ya're talking about when ya tell me I don't have to go META. META=most efficient tactics available. In WoW there's not much of META.Ya just said ya can clear raids but "(excluding Sloth and KC, where power burst dps classes are prefered naturally) ". so yer argument goes to trashcan. Those bosses are part of the game and ya can't ignore 'em. Can ya do KC mid with 4 Necros? Can ya do Sloth 3 Mushrooms Sloth with DD Power? Can ya do Xera middle with 2 rangers and 2 engineers? Why can't I do perform hardcore tactics with those classes? ya know why? cuz NO BALANCE BETWEEN CLASSES AND BUILDS!Also about xera I killed Xera middle with any healer. 4 tempest f/a staff, 2 condi druids, 1 minstrel chrono, 1 power chrono and 2 CPS. So don't tell me ya need healers for faceroll content.Why would the devs actually do a massive load of work when they can design some useless skin in the gemstore and sell it for money. Gemstore is more important than balance and healthy gameplay in both hardcore and casual PvE.aslo " you can either take guardians, eles, rangers, even necros if you want and you will still be able to clear raids no problems"????????? are ya kidding me? necro prefered over tempest? It was maybe prefered in W4, Matthias and Sabetha yes before the "fix" now it's just completely useless and no one takes it anymore. even qT removed it from benchmark and necro doesn't even exist as valid PvE choice anymore. Power any ranger, thief, warr, mesmer and rev don't exist at all. Even LFG won't take 'em since they're useless and can't perform any significant DPS.Ya clearly don't know what ya're talking about when ya said necro is prefered over weaver on most bosses. Do yer homework before saying such BS.

First of all, go drink some cold water to cool off or something. Did I ever said necro would be prefered in META or even most groups opposed to the more potent dps classes? No, I didnt. I said Guild wars 2 raids arent THAT challenging that you always need to go full META to get a clear. So you can pretty much bring even four necros and still clear MOST bosses, it wont efficient, it wont be as fast, but you can still do it. Most efficient team comps are used for speed clears or low man raids, but not everyone care about that. Hell I've done VG kill with 8 crangers and 2 druids. No quickness, no alacrity, no might and we still killed with 3 minutes left on timer. So clearly the one who doesnt know what he is talking about is you. As for Sloth and KC, those have specific mechanics that just make condi useless, opposed to power burst builds. To make condi more viable option on those Anet will need to entirely rework the bosses mechanics.

As for Xera - in your first post you said NO HEALER at all. So here's newsflash for you - Cdruids are still healers and you can perfectly do most bosses (except maybe Deimos, Matt), without any magi druid whatsoever. And why wouldnt you able to do mid Xera with 2 rangers and 2 engi's if they hit dps uptime? Honestly i think you need to loose up a bit, maybe sleep over and come again to see the nonsenses you are typing down. Balance while no perfect, especially with the new specs that just flooded in, is in pretty good place, just like build diversity and the classes you can clear raids with. I just even started seeing revs showing in some groups, which were unthink of before. Balance is a tricky thing to do, and there isnt such a thing, as perfect balance. But right now balance and class/build diversity is much better when we had only 4 tempest perma locked in the dps slots.

then show me xera MIDDLE 2 rangers and 2 engis, sherlock.

[Draco.9480]

@OnizukaBR.8537 said:So like in WoW you would prefer class homonization across the board, so everyone does the same thing but just with different animations right?If you want WoW go to play WoW, but you wont because GW2 is better, and it is because its not like WoW.

did ya read the first sentences of the post? No kitbag answers like "then go play wow". I've opened a discussion how to improve the game but ya enjoy this imbalance. It just looks really bad.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Scipion.7548 said:Is it so strange to want a play a healer guardian or tank warrior ? Is it unreasonable ? Yes probably in this game, but don't you think a game is stupid if the warrior can't tank (but the pink light armored wizard can) and the cleric guy can't heal (but the beastmaster guy can) ? Some things are unreasonable in this game but shouldn't. If this game would be well done, warrior tank would be a thing, and at least one third of the classes could be tanks and one third could be healers. I mean tanks and healers accepted by 99% of the raiding groups/guilds, like on wow.

I don't know about Warriors but Thieves can tank very well, Guardians can tank, Necromancers can tank and Elementalists can tank on most Raid bosses without serious problems. Elementalists can heal, Guardians can heal (!!!) and Revenants can heal (!!!), I think a Mesmer can heal well too but not exactly sure on the build. I'm sure other professions can play tank/healer well too but those I've seen in action and I know they work in those roles. The game has more than enough good tanks and more than enough good healers, there is LOTS of variety here.

The problem with Guild Wars 2 is that the "meta" tank (Chronomancer) and the "meta" healer (Druid) are preferred because of their unique damage buffs, NOT because they are better tanks and/or healers compared to the other options. This is the major issue, offensive buffs that combined (Chrono+Druid+PS) triple the damage output of the team. TRIPLE damage by having all three. That's the reason we have limited variety in Raids, if you replace the Druid or the Chrono, you'll be fine regarding healing and survival but your dps will suffer. It's all about the offensive/damage buffs

[Niobium.7392]

@Draco.9480 said:I don't want to hear any kitbag answers like "it's not wow"......

@Draco.9480 said:and look at the WoW 7.3 benchmark.....

@Draco.9480 said:I ask myself. how come ALL the DPS SPECS in WOW are good more or less.....

@Draco.9480 said:some awkward barriers for 2 seconds that no one cares that was stolen from WoW which like at least 5 classes in WoW can grant bubbles and last like way way longer.....

@Draco.9480 said:with their own unique rotation like in WoW.......

WOW

[Sethorus.9231]

I wonder how many of you here actually played or play WoW... "Whaaah the 7.3 benchmark is balanced!!!". After 10 years, you're actually getting balanced numbers, but guess what? It's for Patchwork fights, where you can stand still and dps without a worry in the world. You know how many fights you have like that in Tomb of Sargeras? None, you'll always have to dodge mechanics, dps adds, and there are also cleave mechanics. Do you think these numbers stay like that?

[Rain.7543]

@Draco.9480 said:then show me xera MIDDLE 2 rangers and 2 engis, sherlock.Considering both Engi's and Condi rangers hit about 30+k dps at the moment, not to mention that both rangers will be getting Pinpoint Distribution on top of that, I think its pretty easy to figure out that it will not be an issue at all, -if- those both engi's and rangers know what they are doing. Xera mid is a strat done during the first phase, to avoid moving about and clear shards, so why wouldnt they be able to? But you just picked a niche part of my post and focused on that, because you clearly lack any arguments to back up your claims of the so-called poor balance and its start more and more to show that you just rant randomly, because your necro is laregely neglected and it has been in recent patches. However there is that also:

3 scourges. Pretty sure your group could replicate that if they were really hitting qT benchmarks, no?