Problem of healing water-tempest(traitlines) and suggestion to some reworks in water(traitline)

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Picking stats, runes,sigils etc to be a healer as tempest hits a problem.

In water there are 2 Major Grandmaster traits "Soothing Power" and "Powerful Aura". So problem is that "Powerful Aura" is connected with tempest's Major Master trait called "Invigorating Torrents" and picking such combo would unable you to pick 100% soothing mist trait which makes no sense if you are purely focused on being a healer.Point: You have to choose between giving allies regeneration OR giving them real heal from soothing mist and that breaks healer purpose of tempest.

So i suggest of moving "Soothing Power" into "Soothing Mist" (merging) with some rule: if you stay in water attunement longer(connected to overload water) your Soothing mist heal over time is doubled.

While on major grandmaster slot(water) could be some new trait that could not be connected to healing,for example:Your chill duration is increased by 20% and when you apply chill you also apply vulnerability(connected to other water traits).

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Yeah we already have noticed tempest steal the aura mechanic to core elem and oblige to play tempest to make auras builds viables + to take specific traits in core lanes. IMO, auras should be a core mechanic, and not be increased tenfold with tempest's shouts, overloads, traits...It's a bit like FB had mechanic on Symbols everywhere... so you needed specific core traits (like Zeal) to play the "FB design" and vice versa a lot of core traits became useless without FB.

It's been 7 years now !? I don't think we'll have a rework to merg or exchange traits in the differents specs.But yes, Powerful aura and Elemental Bastion should have a rework; should be merged, swaped, or something; or soothing power be minor trait.

[Dadnir.5038]

I think it's not the case for balance purpose.

The point is that shouts already provide tempest with a way to grant aura to 5 to 10 players (based on the gamemode). Warhorn earth skill#4 incidentally also grant it's aura to 5 to 10 allies. In a practical way it mean that you can already more or less apply an aura every 5 seconds to up to 10 allies without the use of powerful aura. Providing an aura every 5 seconds is already more than enough to keep up the boons attached to the aura via traits.

Technically, tempest already provide you with the tools necessary to ignore Powerful aura in favor of Soothing power or other traits that grant boons via auras sharing. I'm not saying that it's not tempting to have "more", but from a pure balance point of view it's not something that need/should happen.

What you're asking for is just like saying that Tempestuous aria and Invigorating torrents need to be merged together because they are competing with each other and it would be better to benefit from the 2 traits effects due to the fact that tempest is a boon sharing e-spec. Then you could even be greedy and say that Aura trait should all belong to a single traitline (let's say fire), zephir's boon merged with elemental shielding replacing conjurer in fire and Powerful aura replacing blinding ashes. I mean, wouldn't that be great? Well, cleansing water probably would have to be merged with Soothing power as well to capitalize on the regen granted by invigorating torrent...

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

Tempest in not meta in pve and only in pve it provides auras to 10 people. In wvw and pvp you have deep focused playstyles and i personally play multiple variants of tempest for example:

1. instant 25 might share with many blast finishers and warhorn
2. condi tempest with condi cleanses via auras(fire aura uptime with burn duration)
3. healer
4. i also tried FA overload air shock aura stunner

So there are builds for it that work perfectly but its healing playstyle is outclassed by other professions. For its healing spec you have to sacrifice one thing to get another and even if you had both, you would do much worse than some other profession. Boons that you provide via auras are very short in wvw(even with concentration) and pvp and in pve such boons are useless(as other classes also provide those) compared to alacrity,quickness,stability and many other more important boons tempest cannot provide.

Tempest's Auras are powerful effects that can't be removed anyhow which is unique and good but mostly in pvp and wvw . In PvE none of these auras effects matter against some boss.

Point is: if you play tempest then you really want "Powerful Aura" as support to maximize your impact. And reason why such trait is not competing with "Cleansing Water" but with "Soothing Power" is that you can get area condi cleanse via fire trait "Smothering Auras". Alternative for that exists without sacrificing your gameplay and options you get. However because whole point there is to provide boons,heal etc , Soothing mist should be also there with its full effect.

I made a build for "healer weaver" and with arcane traitline you can provide regeneration to allies but also empowered soothing mist which makes sense why soothing mist is still there....but i never saw "healer weaver" yet as only staff in water attunement allows it to really provide some healing/support(its all spells aren't focused for supporting).

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I don't see how you don't want to take Powerful aura.Often you take 1 or 2 shouts with auras, plus they have 20-30sec CD, Sand Squall #4 warhorn DOES NOT APPLY magnetic aura to allies, as instable conduit, soothing ince, the fire aura on swap, on conjure weapon, schoking aura, magnetic aura on staff or earth shield ...

Actually Elemental Bastion is kinda useless for the group without Powerful Aura, better take transcendant Tempest to low by 1 or 2sec Water overload, etc.

Edit* and vice-versa Powerful aura is useless without Elemental Bastion; except rare situations like group of condi berserkers or ... playing tempest with fresh-air or fire. Auras aren't strong enough, intrinsically or in the frequency, to be useful on their own without boons, heals, tempest fresh air, etc.

[Axl.8924]

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:Tempest in not meta in pve and only in pve it provides auras to 10 people. In wvw and pvp you have deep focused playstyles and i personally play multiple variants of tempest for example:

1. instant 25 might share with many blast finishers and warhorn
2. condi tempest with condi cleanses via auras(fire aura uptime with burn duration)
3. healer
4. i also tried FA overload air shock aura stunner

So there are builds for it that work perfectly but its healing playstyle is outclassed by other professions. For its healing spec you have to sacrifice one thing to get another and even if you had both, you would do much worse than some other profession. Boons that you provide via auras are very short in wvw(even with concentration) and pvp and in pve such boons are useless(as other classes also provide those) compared to alacrity,quickness,stability and many other more important boons tempest cannot provide.

Tempest's Auras are powerful effects that can't be removed anyhow which is unique and good but mostly in pvp and wvw . In PvE none of these auras effects matter against some boss.

Point is: if you play tempest then you really want "Powerful Aura" as support to maximize your impact. And reason why such trait is not competing with "Cleansing Water" but with "Soothing Power" is that you can get area condi cleanse via fire trait "Smothering Auras". Alternative for that exists without sacrificing your gameplay and options you get. However because whole point there is to provide boons,heal etc , Soothing mist should be also there with its full effect.

I made a build for "healer weaver" and with arcane traitline you can provide regeneration to allies but also empowered soothing mist which makes sense why soothing mist is still there....but i never saw "healer weaver" yet as only staff in water attunement allows it to really provide some healing/support(its all spells aren't focused for supporting).

Wait so tempest aint meta?

whats the reason its damage?

[Dadnir.5038]

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:... snip!...

Let's take this in another way: "Why do you want to use aura share to play tempest healer?"

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:...

snip!

...

Let's take this in another way: "Why do you want to use aura share to play tempest healer?"

Because you heal people when you give them aura and you grant them boons(regeneration for example) and that is its primary way of healing as tempest. Without those you are not even a healer and even with those(combined with weapons and overload water) you are doing much worse than firebrand,ventari rev, druid, maybe even worse than heal warrior and support scrapper.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

@Axl.8924 said:

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268" said:Tempest in not meta in pve and only in pve it provides auras to 10 people. In wvw and pvp you have deep focused playstyles and i personally play multiple variants of tempest for example:

1. instant 25 might share with many blast finishers and warhorn
2. condi tempest with condi cleanses via auras(fire aura uptime with burn duration)
3. healer
4. i also tried FA overload air shock aura stunner

So there are builds for it that work perfectly but its healing playstyle is outclassed by other professions. For its healing spec you have to sacrifice one thing to get another and even if you had both, you would do much worse than some other profession. Boons that you provide via auras are very short in wvw(even with concentration) and pvp and in pve such boons are useless(as other classes also provide those) compared to alacrity,quickness,stability and many other more important boons tempest cannot provide.

Tempest's Auras are powerful effects that can't be removed anyhow which is unique and good but mostly in pvp and wvw . In PvE none of these auras effects matter against some boss.

Point is: if you play tempest then you really want "Powerful Aura" as support to maximize your impact. And reason why such trait is not competing with "Cleansing Water" but with "Soothing Power" is that you can get area condi cleanse via fire trait "Smothering Auras". Alternative for that exists without sacrificing your gameplay and options you get. However because whole point there is to provide boons,heal etc , Soothing mist should be also there with its full effect.

I made a build for "healer weaver" and with arcane traitline you can provide regeneration to allies but also empowered soothing mist which makes sense why soothing mist is still there....but i never saw "healer weaver" yet as only staff in water attunement allows it to really provide some healing/support(its all spells aren't focused for supporting).

Wait so tempest aint meta?

whats the reason its damage?

As support it is not meta(in pve) there are better professions that can replace its slot and do better. Its damage is replaced with weaver.... i even tried to make some hybrid healer+burn dps that share 25 might to 10 people and it is just outclassed by druid(because druid also provide 25 might to 10 people and provide more healing/supportive things) and its dps is not that high. If auras mattered more in pve , it would be ok to be unique and just have auras and not healing as primary ability.

[Dadnir.5038]

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:...

snip!

...

Let's take this in another way: "Why do you want to use aura share to play tempest healer?"

Because you heal people when you give them aura and you grant them boons(regeneration for example) and that is its primary way of healing as tempest. Without those you are not even a healer and even with those(combined with weapons and overload water) you are doing much worse than firebrand,ventari rev, druid, maybe even worse than heal warrior and support scrapper.

I'm sorry but if you really think that it's your primary way to heal as a tempest, we've got a problem. Despite how watered down "Wash the pain away!" is since it was nerfed, you got more healing out of this single skill than you do out of auras. Overload water as well (bonus point is that you also get the regen out of it. Water attunment skillsets also provide more healing than focusing on auras would do. Add to that a few water + blast combo and you are quite high in the healing output. (not even taking into account water golem's crashing wave.)

The elementalist is litterally full of healing skills, how can you realistically say that it's worse FB, Ventari, druid warrior and scrapper? Assuming Magi gear/dwayna runes (just for the sake of maximum healing output) and staff you have an easy time keeping up regen for 404 hp/s, add soothing mist for another 491 HP/s (325 HP/s WvW) and you're already at 895 HP/s (729 HP/s in WvW). With that alone you're above shout warrior. And you've got "healing bursts" in overload water, Geyser, "wash the pain away!", Blast on water field. And if that's not enough you can also count on water staff AA, Signet of water and Water elemental's crashing wave.

No, Tempest is far from being "much worse" than other profession in term of "healing". Tempest aura share might be, but tempest itself isn't.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Actually you don't want to overload with water.It seems cool with 8~10k healing but in fact it has long cast time, healing coef is lower than most of others skills and traits, you can't swap to water for 15-20 sec (or you stay in water, but it's not a good option either); it means no water skills, Soothing mist may not loop, Healing Ripple and cleansing wave trigger two times less, same for latent stamina (because you don"t play auras (because unstable conduit doesn't share aura on itself))

That's sad but, In pve, overloading water isn't optimal.Do the math, to the test, but with proper rotation, overloading air or fire, etc, you heal a lot more without overloading water and with Powerful Aura.

[Downstate.4697]

Prior to heal nerfs people would just spam water auto attack on staff. That with regen and soothing power allowed for op healing with minimal effort in wvw. Soothing power isnt that good anymore and not worth taking over other choices

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

i also think that powerful aura heals for more. With spells it is just half of its healing potential, with powerful aura it is like full healing potential. In PvE auras do nothing much(aura's effects) against some boss, boons and healing tempest provides is just replaced by firebrand and druid. In PvP and WvW you are limited to be a "pure healer" as you need some utilities for survival and different traits. Imagine now you can't go for pure healer build but for semi-healer(more cleanses,blink,stun breaks, more other things than just heal). Picking such role, being unable to fulfill purpose of same role.

I mentioned Soothing mist+Soothing power as it wouldn't affect utility aspect of tempest in pvp/wvw and it wouldn't be too strong if there was a rule: to provide +100% you need to stay a little longer.

Reason why soothing mist is strong is that Regeneration boon you can strip/corupt but soothing mist you can't which is why it is very unique and good for tempest. Thing is: you can't just stay in water as tempest but you need to swap elements and do some overloads for auras which can lead soothing mist to even expire(so in optimal play, current soothing mist is not existent as it is not up half of its time(tempest long cooldowns on elements) and because of its low healing.

[Axl.8924]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:...

snip!

...

Let's take this in another way: "Why do you want to use aura share to play tempest healer?"

Because you heal people when you give them aura and you grant them boons(regeneration for example) and that is its primary way of healing as tempest. Without those you are not even a healer and even with those(combined with weapons and overload water) you are doing much worse than firebrand,ventari rev, druid, maybe even worse than heal warrior and support scrapper.

I'm sorry but if you really think that it's your primary way to heal as a tempest, we've got a problem. Despite how watered down

"Wash the pain away!"

is since it was nerfed, you got more healing out of this single skill than you do out of auras. Overload water as well (bonus point is that you also get the regen out of it. Water attunment skillsets also provide more healing than focusing on auras would do. Add to that a few water + blast combo and you are quite high in the healing output. (not even taking into account water golem's

crashing wave

.)

The elementalist is litterally full of healing skills, how can you realistically say that it's worse FB, Ventari, druid warrior and scrapper? Assuming Magi gear/dwayna runes (just for the sake of maximum healing output) and staff you have an easy time keeping up regen for 404 hp/s, add

soothing mist

for another 491 HP/s (325 HP/s WvW) and you're already at 895 HP/s (729 HP/s in WvW). With that alone you're above shout warrior. And you've got "healing bursts" in overload water, Geyser, "wash the pain away!", Blast on water field. And if that's not enough you can also count on water staff AA, Signet of water and Water elemental's crashing wave.

No, Tempest is far from being "much worse" than other profession in term of "healing". Tempest aura share might be, but tempest itself isn't.

So is heal tempest meta then or not?

for raids that is.

I imaginef or fractals it won't matter.

[Jski.6180]

I think it would be better to remove elemental auras from other class and combo fields and make the fact that ele is able to share auras a very significant effect of the game.As well as add in more transmutation traits for the ele core class maybe even make powerful aura trate transmutation aura for a good heal.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:...

snip!

...

Let's take this in another way: "Why do you want to use aura share to play tempest healer?"

Because you heal people when you give them aura and you grant them boons(regeneration for example) and that is its primary way of healing as tempest. Without those you are not even a healer and even with those(combined with weapons and overload water) you are doing much worse than firebrand,ventari rev, druid, maybe even worse than heal warrior and support scrapper.

I'm sorry but if you really think that it's your primary way to heal as a tempest, we've got a problem. Despite how watered down

"Wash the pain away!"

is since it was nerfed, you got more healing out of this single skill than you do out of auras. Overload water as well (bonus point is that you also get the regen out of it. Water attunment skillsets also provide more healing than focusing on auras would do. Add to that a few water + blast combo and you are quite high in the healing output. (not even taking into account water golem's

crashing wave

.)

The elementalist is litterally full of healing skills, how can you realistically say that it's worse FB, Ventari, druid warrior and scrapper? Assuming Magi gear/dwayna runes (just for the sake of maximum healing output) and staff you have an easy time keeping up regen for 404 hp/s, add

soothing mist

for another 491 HP/s (325 HP/s WvW) and you're already at 895 HP/s (729 HP/s in WvW). With that alone you're above shout warrior. And you've got "healing bursts" in overload water, Geyser, "wash the pain away!", Blast on water field. And if that's not enough you can also count on water staff AA, Signet of water and Water elemental's crashing wave.

No, Tempest is far from being "much worse" than other profession in term of "healing". Tempest aura share might be, but tempest itself isn't.

Now, I haven't done a full breakdown of the proportional healing done by the snowcrows build, but unless I am mistaken, the answer is that yes, the majority of heals comes from the auras. The only non-aura heals come from soothing mist, healing ripple, and the warhorn water skills. Otherwise, everything comes from the auras.

Personally, I've found the heal tempest to be quite frustrating to build, because it is always just shy of being good. All of the builds you see on snowcrows are alacrity dependent. That is, if you don't have alacrity from another source to help you, then you end up deficient in a big way. You end up constantly losing out on maximum might, or regeneration, or protection, or weakness, or vigor. If you don't spam the shouts you lose out on boons, but if you do spam the shouts then you lose burst healing. Overload water takes too long to be used in a pinch. You can attain the highest steady heal rate in the game, but only if you sacrifice all group utility and buffs for it.

When I play as a heal renegade or a heal firebrand, at no point am I losing out on some kind of significant boon or utility. The good traits are clearly laid out with no real sacrifices, and it lets each profession accomplish nearly everything with their own unique abilities for different circumstances. The tempest, however, is full of these kinds of restrictions for seemingly arbitrary reasons.

In a vacuum, the main benefits of a heal tempest is vigor and auras. The auras are mostly useless, which has been explained in detail by multiple people now. So basically, it is vigor. Giving might is the bog standard, and any healer that doesn't cap might is nigh useless. What the tempest lacks is... everything else. They don't give stability, quickness, alacrity, aegis, fury, barrier, or vulnerability. They give spotty and intermittent regeneration and protection. The only mechanical benefit given is projectile reflection with magnetic aura. In order to fill these holes, you have to pick different trait lines. But, you need to take water in order to get aura share and the healing bonuses. So that leaves me with a choice:

Take air to get Fury + Swiftness, and a paltry damage boost for yourself alone.Take earth to get protection and intermittent stability.Choose between either vigor + regeneration, or might + weakness.Take Arcane to get protection + regeneration, and the ability to revive people better.

No matter what I choose, I'm losing out on something pretty big. I lose group fury, or I lose group protection, or I lose group might, or I lose group vigor, or I lose group stability. The only comparison I can make with the other professions is the Heal Renegade having to choose between Assassin's Presence or Regeneration.

[Axl.8924]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:

@Dadnir.5038 said:

@Svez Poizon XD.5268 said:...

snip!

...

Let's take this in another way: "Why do you want to use aura share to play tempest healer?"

Because you heal people when you give them aura and you grant them boons(regeneration for example) and that is its primary way of healing as tempest. Without those you are not even a healer and even with those(combined with weapons and overload water) you are doing much worse than firebrand,ventari rev, druid, maybe even worse than heal warrior and support scrapper.

I'm sorry but if you really think that it's your primary way to heal as a tempest, we've got a problem. Despite how watered down

"Wash the pain away!"

is since it was nerfed, you got more healing out of this single skill than you do out of auras. Overload water as well (bonus point is that you also get the regen out of it. Water attunment skillsets also provide more healing than focusing on auras would do. Add to that a few water + blast combo and you are quite high in the healing output. (not even taking into account water golem's

crashing wave

.)

The elementalist is litterally full of healing skills, how can you realistically say that it's worse FB, Ventari, druid warrior and scrapper? Assuming Magi gear/dwayna runes (just for the sake of maximum healing output) and staff you have an easy time keeping up regen for 404 hp/s, add

soothing mist

for another 491 HP/s (325 HP/s WvW) and you're already at 895 HP/s (729 HP/s in WvW). With that alone you're above shout warrior. And you've got "healing bursts" in overload water, Geyser, "wash the pain away!", Blast on water field. And if that's not enough you can also count on water staff AA, Signet of water and Water elemental's crashing wave.

No, Tempest is far from being "much worse" than other profession in term of "healing". Tempest aura share might be, but tempest itself isn't.

Now, I haven't done a full breakdown of the proportional healing done by the

snowcrows

build, but unless I am mistaken, the answer is that yes, the majority of heals comes from the auras. The only non-aura heals come from soothing mist, healing ripple, and the warhorn water skills. Otherwise, everything comes from the auras.

Personally, I've found the heal tempest to be quite frustrating to build, because it is always just shy of being good. All of the builds you see on snowcrows are alacrity dependent. That is, if you don't have alacrity from another source to help you, then you end up deficient in a big way. You end up constantly losing out on maximum might, or regeneration, or protection, or weakness, or vigor. If you don't spam the shouts you lose out on boons, but if you do spam the shouts then you lose burst healing. Overload water takes too long to be used in a pinch. You can attain the highest steady heal rate in the game, but only if you sacrifice all group utility and buffs for it.

When I play as a heal renegade or a heal firebrand, at no point am I losing out on some kind of significant boon or utility. The good traits are clearly laid out with no real sacrifices, and it lets each profession accomplish nearly everything with their own unique abilities for different circumstances. The tempest, however, is full of these kinds of restrictions for seemingly arbitrary reasons.

In a vacuum, the main benefits of a heal tempest is vigor and auras. The auras are mostly useless, which has been explained in detail by multiple people now. So basically, it is vigor. Giving might is the bog standard, and any healer that doesn't cap might is nigh useless. What the tempest lacks is... everything else. They don't give stability, quickness, alacrity, aegis, fury, barrier, or vulnerability. They give spotty and intermittent regeneration and protection. The only mechanical benefit given is projectile reflection with magnetic aura. In order to fill these holes, you have to pick different trait lines. But, you need to take water in order to get aura share and the healing bonuses. So that leaves me with a choice:

Take air to get Fury + Swiftness, and a paltry damage boost for yourself alone.Take earth to get protection and intermittent stability.Choose between either vigor + regeneration, or might + weakness.Take Arcane to get protection + regeneration, and the ability to revive people better.

No matter what I choose, I'm losing out on something pretty big. I lose group fury, or I lose group protection, or I lose group might, or I lose group vigor, or I lose group stability. The only comparison I can make with the other professions is the Heal Renegade having to choose between Assassin's Presence or Regeneration.

If quickness is so important, then it proves what ele needs is faster casts shorter CDS to help them play catch up no?

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

@"Axl.8924" said:

If quickness is so important, then it proves what ele needs is faster casts shorter CDS to help them play catch up no?

I'm having a hard time understanding you here.

Personally, I'm bad at coming up with fixes. There's a lot of ways to help out the heal tempest on a basic level. Personally, I'd like to make it so all Auras give boons when applied without requiring traits. This would help make leap finishers better, but it would also make tempests of all forms better. But, reducing the cooldowns on tempest skills would help them get better at maintaining boons.

But that wouldn't be enough. PVE support is all about the damage boosting boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity, vulnerability*), and unique damage buffs (empower allies, spirits, spotter, assassin's presence, banners, etc). Ele has... none of those. What they get is vigor, which is good for PVP/WvW, but in PVE vigor is only useful if everything falls apart and you have to dodge a lot. If tempests received something like "Give alacrity to allies when completing an overload" in a trait, that would really help tempests in PVE.

[Emberheart.8426]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:

If quickness is so important, then it proves what ele needs is faster casts shorter CDS to help them play catch up no?

I'm having a hard time understanding you here.

Personally, I'm bad at coming up with fixes. There's a lot of ways to help out the heal tempest on a basic level. Personally, I'd like to make it so all Auras give boons when applied without requiring traits. This would help make leap finishers better, but it would also make tempests of all forms better. But, reducing the cooldowns on tempest skills would help them get better at maintaining boons.

But that wouldn't be enough. PVE support is all about the damage boosting boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity, vulnerability*), and unique damage buffs (empower allies, spirits, spotter, assassin's presence, banners, etc). Ele has... none of those. What they get is vigor, which is good for PVP/WvW, but in PVE vigor is only useful if everything falls apart and you have to dodge a lot. If tempests received something like "Give alacrity to allies when completing an overload" in a trait, that would really help tempests in PVE.

They could just make auras provide unique stat buffs on top of their current effects and tempest would be instantly good in PvE. No improvements to boon access needed.

[VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.]

cleanse&heal aura spamming tempest is still a thing in wvw. Auras are not stripped by bubbles, quick to apply and while you are cleansing you can also lay down some cc and heals.

Yes, scrappers are 'meta', but a well played tempest is not worse when it comes to cleanses.

And a well placed rebound can turn around a fight.

[Axl.8924]

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:

If quickness is so important, then it proves what ele needs is faster casts shorter CDS to help them play catch up no?

I'm having a hard time understanding you here.

Personally, I'm bad at coming up with fixes. There's a lot of ways to help out the heal tempest on a basic level. Personally, I'd like to make it so all Auras give boons when applied without requiring traits. This would help make leap finishers better, but it would also make tempests of all forms better. But, reducing the cooldowns on tempest skills would help them get better at maintaining boons.

But that wouldn't be enough. PVE support is all about the damage boosting boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity, vulnerability*), and unique damage buffs (empower allies, spirits, spotter, assassin's presence, banners, etc). Ele has... none of those. What they get is vigor, which is good for PVP/WvW, but in PVE vigor is only useful if everything falls apart and you have to dodge a lot. If tempests received something like "Give alacrity to allies when completing an overload" in a trait, that would really help tempests in PVE.

Personally i'd feel better if it was something more unique than quickness something only eles can provide, like the way magnetic aura is ele only or burn aura is ele only perhaps the aura that boosts crits lasts for a certain amount of time. OR: they could change it so instead of weaver being the one providing support in form of barrier, tempest can give barrier?

I dunno do eles even give quickness on anything i don't recall us giving it. Look at scourge where barriers and vamp is nec only, it should be that way where we get something unique, but useful.

@Ganathar.4956 said:

@Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

@"Axl.8924" said:

If quickness is so important, then it proves what ele needs is faster casts shorter CDS to help them play catch up no?

I'm having a hard time understanding you here.

Personally, I'm bad at coming up with fixes. There's a lot of ways to help out the heal tempest on a basic level. Personally, I'd like to make it so all Auras give boons when applied without requiring traits. This would help make leap finishers better, but it would also make tempests of all forms better. But, reducing the cooldowns on tempest skills would help them get better at maintaining boons.

But that wouldn't be enough. PVE support is all about the damage boosting boons (fury, might, quickness, alacrity, vulnerability*), and unique damage buffs (empower allies, spirits, spotter, assassin's presence, banners, etc). Ele has... none of those. What they get is vigor, which is good for PVP/WvW, but in PVE vigor is only useful if everything falls apart and you have to dodge a lot. If tempests received something like "Give alacrity to allies when completing an overload" in a trait, that would really help tempests in PVE.

They could just make auras provide unique stat buffs on top of their current effects and tempest would be instantly good in PvE. No improvements to boon access needed.

I think thats actually the right direction instead of everyone having same buffs.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

:+1: neighbours from above.Quickness/Alacrity would be the easy way to be viable at least in the second league; it could be a Tempest's Mechanic with shouts or overloads. Adding Unique and Offensive buffs to Elem is a great idea, but you'll still need quickness/alacrity in your group.But i don't think TEMPEST lacks support option, IMO Core Elem is left behind and is the one to buff.

It would be okai if those buffs were inherent to Core Elem, so you could play a hybrid DPS/buffer for example with weaver/core or Boonfart/buffer Tempest with some sacrifice in traits and skills.For example a fire trait to add +150power/Condition to Fire auras; and so you'd play Fire/Water/Weaver, or we rework the Arcane skills' trait to share stacks of Arcane Power and Ferocity, share for ~15sec the stat bonus from Conjured Weapons ...

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

To make auras worth in PvE, they could rework "Powerful aura" trait to provide any aura to 10 targets but all auras last -1 sec(from 4 to 3), not just shouts.

Below are just ideas that could help pve tempest:To make auras useful they could add secondary effects:

Fire aura-fire shield instead of applying burn when being hit in pve, it also pulses 0,5-1 sec of burn per sec per attacker in like 240 radius(increased to 1-2 sec with 100% burn duration), so giving fire aura to 10 allies and maintainging its duration would increase tempest being able to share 25 might, heal allies and do fair burn dps in raids.

I am not sure what can be done with frost-shock-magnetic aura there.

Frost aura could provide opposite alacrity but as buff, for example: longer cooldowns for allies but also stronger damage/condi damage/effects of spells(ofc not 66% but maybe 10% for example). With alacrity it would be even fine because alacrity would cut more seconds from longer cooldown spells. It would lead to less piano play but more effective spells.

Shock aura could also cause small lightning strikes applying vulnerability condition every 1 sec per attacker which would lead FA(fresh air) power tempest that share shock auras to 10 people viable as dps compared to weaver.

Magnetic aura could stay as it is, as there are mechanics where having it on 10 people can be easy counter to boss that would throw projectiles around.

[Leo G.4501]

If you wanted to add effects to make auras good, why not something actually good?

Like with Powerful Aura + Fire shield, burning no longer causes you damage but instead heals you for an amount per tic.

Powerful Aura + Static shield, the next outgoing attack will critical hit and do increases critical damage.

Powerful Aura + Frost shield, healing above the HP threshold is applied as barrier and run speed is increased instead of deceased when chilled.

Powerful Aura + Magnetic shield, the next 3 outgoing projectiles cannot be reflected. Gain aegis if the aura reflects a projectile.

[JusticeRetroHunter.7684]

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:Actually you don't want to overload with water.It seems cool with 8~10k healing but in fact it has long cast time, healing coef is lower than most of others skills and traits, you can't swap to water for 15-20 sec (or you stay in water, but it's not a good option either); it means no water skills, Soothing mist may not loop, Healing Ripple and cleansing wave trigger two times less, same for latent stamina (because you don"t play auras (because unstable conduit doesn't share aura on itself))

That's sad but, In pve, overloading water isn't optimal.Do the math, to the test, but with proper rotation, overloading air or fire, etc, you heal a lot more without overloading water and with Powerful Aura.

Overload Water is the most powerful healing skill on Tempest, it's also the best condition cleanse.

I've done the math...extensively.

The weakest healing is actually Aura sharing...it pails in comparison to even Auto Attack Staff 1. camping water also happens to be the most effective way to pure heal.

Now if we are talking hybrid building, where one doesn't camp water, then your gonna find it hard to even use Overload Water optimally at all, let alone do any impactful healing...So if you are some DPS with Healing Power secondary, then Aura sharing is part of your DPS rotation and that would be how you heal, as a secondary element to your DPS, which I'm sure is what you meant to say and point out.

@"Svez Poizon XD.5268"I agree basically with everything you said. The way the traits are setup, is essentially that you have to make a choice between Soothing Mist Healing (hardcore healing) and sharing aura's, when in reality, Aura's should define the actual build. Frost Aura should be good enough to be a healing mechanism in and of itself, and then just give it some tradeoff that gives it some counter-play. the --10% damage is uninteresting to say the least, and really it could use some real mechanic that makes it far more interesting to play. That way we can cut loose some of these garbage traits that pin the profession into a singular tunnel vision of what tempest "should" be and give it instead, some more diverse options.