mirage .

[felix.2386]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@fel> @felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

strong to noobs yea, warrior is the most predictable spec in the entire game, predicting a warrior is easier than predicting what color you gonna get when you mix black and white.

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots, its like this one guy saying warrior cant stay on point or kite, while in reality warrior has one of if not the best kiting in the game.you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

is strong "to" noobs, which mean it is only strong fighting noobs, which is why the guy i replied to think warrior is strong as kitten, because the guy is noob, oh wait that's you?

[Leonidrex.5649]

@felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@fel> @felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

strong to noobs yea, warrior is the most predictable spec in the entire game, predicting a warrior is easier than predicting what color you gonna get when you mix black and white.

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots, its like this one guy saying warrior cant stay on point or kite, while in reality warrior has one of if not the best kiting in the game.you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

is strong "to" noobs, which mean it is only strong fighting noobs, which is why the guy i replied to think warrior is strong as kitten, because the guy is noob, oh wait that's you?

imagine thinking warrior is bad lol, and then insulting others for thinking otherwise

[felix.2386]

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@fel> @felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

strong to noobs yea, warrior is the most predictable spec in the entire game, predicting a warrior is easier than predicting what color you gonna get when you mix black and white.

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots, its like this one guy saying warrior cant stay on point or kite, while in reality warrior has one of if not the best kiting in the game.you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

is strong "to" noobs, which mean it is only strong fighting noobs, which is why the guy i replied to think warrior is strong as kitten, because the guy is noob, oh wait that's you?

imagine thinking warrior is bad lol, and then insulting others for thinking otherwise

imagine being so bad thinking warrior is actually good, maybe that's why power warrior has not appeared in any AT or player made tournament since 2020 feb LOL.what a joke. you have no logic or reasoning in your thought what's so ever, except the only fact that you probably got your kitten kicked in gold 1 because i never see your ID in plat+ matches, btw i've seen bots higher then gold 1

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Leonidrex.5649" said:

you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

Not true. Warrior is one of the only classes with predictability baked in. Most other classes have surprise factors, be they stealth or adds ccing, or teleports or instant cast dazes, name your flavor. Warrior generally has multiple versions of "Oh I'm going to hit you now, better dodge". They are markedly more predictable than any other class currently in the game. He has a point.

Because of that:

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots

This is also not true.Warrior is technically* one of the weakest classes in the game currently. It can hit you for a lot of damage so it is 'strong' in that sense of the word, but the avenue for delivering that damage is so deliberate, telegraphed and avoidable a reasonably skilled player should be able to give them a hard time by just performing a cursory observation of their animations. If you get downed by a warrior odds are you absolutely deserve it, but a warrior main can use their class optimally and still lose because their mechanics are so blatantly obvious.Not to mention their damage is all frontloaded so blind/block is many times more effective on them, whereas other classes can ignore blind/block with minimal drop to their dps.

• Spellbreaker ameliorates this weakness somewhat because full counter can be timed in such a way that it is impossible to deal with it on reaction alone. Berserker and core do not have this advantage so they are many times weaker.

War is only predictable if the War tries to take initiative as the attacker, which in this case his tells are obvious. If a War is played very counter offensively, very defensively, it's not easy to play around any tells at all. If he just waits for you to take actions first and then reacts to that, War is one of the classes with the hardest tells in the game to react to.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:@fel> @felix.2386 said:

@Leonidrex.5649 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:Mes/Chrono/Mirage is actually in the best spot it's been... ever... I'd say.

Surprisingly.

Now if we can do this:

1. Buff War a tiiiiny bit
2. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Revs
3. Shave a weeeee bit of damage off Weaver
4. Address Rune of Sanct and Blood Bank on Scourge

Honestly we'd have the most balanced meta we've seen in years.

warrior is already strong as kitten, dont know what you want to buff.

strong to noobs yea, warrior is the most predictable spec in the entire game, predicting a warrior is easier than predicting what color you gonna get when you mix black and white.

nope, warrior is weak for nubs, as they dont understand how to use it properly and die like idiots, its like this one guy saying warrior cant stay on point or kite, while in reality warrior has one of if not the best kiting in the game.you drop useless words like "predictable", it doesnt matter, every class is predictable

is strong "to" noobs, which mean it is only strong fighting noobs, which is why the guy i replied to think warrior is strong as kitten, because the guy is noob, oh wait that's you?

imagine thinking warrior is bad lol, and then insulting others for thinking otherwise

imagine being so bad thinking warrior is actually good, maybe that's why power warrior has not appeared in any AT or player made tournament since 2020 feb LOL.what a joke. you have no logic or reasoning in your thought what's so ever, except the only fact that you probably got your kitten kicked in gold 1 because i never see your ID in plat+ matches, btw i've seen bots higher then gold 1

Guarantee you that will change now in the Necro meta. Spellbreaker is the only class that can perma lock down a Necro for easy kills. Banner also competes vs. instant revive skills. Self Quickness with frenzy and banner trumps instant revive skills.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:War is only predictable if the War tries to take initiative as the attacker, which in this case his tells are obvious. If a War is played very counter offensively, very defensively, it's not easy to play around any tells at all. If he just waits for you to take actions first and then reacts to that, War is one of the classes with the hardest tells in the game to react to.

I don't know how to respond to you saying with a straight face that warrior becomes less predictable if he waits for actions, like every class in the game won't use that opportunity to freecast from 600+ distance until they approach..

I'll just assume I misunderstood. I'm not feeling this statement.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:I don't know how to respond to you saying with a straight face that warrior becomes less predictable if he waits for actions, like every class in the game won't use that opportunity to freecast from 600+ distance until they approach..

I'll just assume I misunderstood. I'm not feeling this statement.

most likely he doesn't mean sitting there eating hits, but counter attacking at key moments.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:War is only predictable if the War tries to take initiative as the attacker, which in this case his tells are obvious. If a War is played very counter offensively, very defensively, it's not easy to play around any tells at all. If he just waits for you to take actions first and then reacts to that, War is one of the classes with the hardest tells in the game to react to.

Elaborate. How should a warrior wait for an opponent to take actions first to make their tells harder to react to? You may use any recent meta class as your matchup example.

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:Guarantee you that will change now in the Necro meta. Spellbreaker is the only class that can perma lock down a Necro for easy kills. Banner also competes vs. instant revive skills. Self Quickness with frenzy and banner trumps instant revive skills.

@"Multicolorhipster.9751" Hammer useful now.

I don't know how else to explain it man. Top Spellbreakers have been playing this way for years. If you were to ask a War main who plays top 100 or higher to teach you, the very first thing they will say is: "Play counter offensively. Only ever go aggressive if a person is bad or if someone is 15% health and you are securing a kill."

Pretty much what they do is they stay on top of you and wait for you to make actions first, then they use certain things in retaliation that keeps you shut down and unable to do anything, but you have to make actions first or their skills aren't designed too well for offense.

• Dagger 3 = fast interrupt when you go to do anything, bonus interrupt heal utilities or someone's burst. of course you have to wait for the person to begin actions before you can really optimize the use of Dagger 3.
• Dagger F1 Burst = tag rev & absorb on it and then land it when the person generates all their boons in preparation for some burst or defense cycle. another skill that you can't just chase and use. you need to really make sure it lands when it matters. sometimes need to wait till a person generates their stab and might to optimize the use of Dagger F1.
• GS 3 = it's a free evade and functions similar to IH or Unrelenting Assault that it attacks while defending at the same time. this skill is largely responsible for sustain on war. this is again not an offensive skill, it is counter offensive.
• Bull's Charge = another skill that people try too aggressively to use very offensively. this skill is best used when you can capitalize on the evade frame to make an opponent's burst whiff, while him being in his own animation will make sure your knockdown CC lands. and then of course 100 blades and GS F1.
• Full Counter = nothing in the game is as counter offensive as Full Counter. obviously this is not a skill that you run 600 range across a field at someone expecting to get close and use. you wait until those moments when you know people aren't expecting the FC to proc, like when a mesmer's clones are hitting you constantly so you can use whenever you want ect ect.
• Magebane Tether = on the other hand, this skill is just all psychological in use. it can be used offensively, counter offensively, defensively. just having it on a person without intending to use the CC puts pressure and limitations on their options for positioning, mobility, disengage, and options in general.

There are times when I am against Vaans as example, where he will not take actions at all until he sees what I'm doing first. Then when you go to do something, that's when the good ones see your animations and know if they have time for a big CC to land or need to use dagger 3 rupt, or possibly just dodge. Everything good Spellbreakers do is counter offensive. I've been playing quite a bit of War myself lately for something different to do, and I can say that War is just bad at pressing an offense outside of a few exceptions where the sheer amount of CC can counter something, like a Necro. But when a War wisely plays counter offensively on say a side node, it is still most definitely of the hardest classes/builds to get off a node or beat in a 1v1 in general. No other class can really do it in the same way that War can.

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I don't know how else to explain it man. Top Spellbreakers have been playing this way for years. If you were to ask a War main who plays top 100 or higher to teach you, the very first thing they will say is: "Play counter offensively. Only ever go aggressive if a person is bad or if someone is 15% health and you are securing a kill."Pretty much what they do is they stay on top of you and wait for you to make actions first, then they use certain things in retaliation that keeps you shut down and unable to do anything, but you have to make actions first or their skills aren't designed too well for offense.

• Dagger 3 = fast interrupt when you go to do anything, bonus interrupt heal utilities or someone's burst. of course you have to wait for the person to begin actions before you can really optimize the use of Dagger 3.
• Dagger F1 Burst = tag rev & absorb on it and then land it when the person generates all their boons in preparation for some burst or defense cycle. another skill that you can't just chase and use. you need to really make sure it lands when it matters. sometimes need to wait till a person generates their stab and might to optimize the use of Dagger F1.
• GS 3 = it's a free evade and functions similar to IH or Unrelenting Assault that it attacks while defending at the same time. this skill is largely responsible for sustain on war. this is again not an offensive skill, it is counter offensive.
• Bull's Charge = another skill that people try too aggressively to use very offensively. this skill is best used when you can capitalize on the evade frame to make an opponent's burst whiff, while him being in his own animation will make sure your knockdown CC lands. and then of course 100 blades and GS F1.
• Full Counter = nothing in the game is as counter offensive as Full Counter. obviously this is not a skill that you run 600 range across a field at someone expecting to get close and use. you wait until those moments when you know people aren't expecting the FC to proc, like when a mesmer's clones are hitting you constantly so you can use whenever you want ect ect.
• Magebane Tether = on the other hand, this skill is just all psychological in use. it can be used offensively, counter offensively, defensively. just having it on a person without intending to use the CC puts pressure and limitations on their options for positioning, mobility, disengage, and options in general.

There are times when I am against Vaans as example, where he will not take actions at all until he sees what I'm doing first. Then when you go to do something, that's when the good ones see your animations and know if they have time for a big CC to land or need to use dagger 3 rupt, or possibly just dodge. Everything good Spellbreakers do is counter offensive. I've been playing quite a bit of War myself lately for something different to do, and I can say that War is just bad at pressing an offense outside of a few exceptions where the sheer amount of CC can counter something, like a Necro. But when a War wisely plays counter offensively on say a side node, it is still most definitely of the hardest classes/builds to get off a node or beat in a 1v1 in general. No other class can really do it in the same way that War can.

I think I see what the issue is. You and I have different concepts of what "warrior" is referring to when considering balance. You are specifically referring to spellbreaker. I am also considering core and Berserker. I am aware that Spellbreaker is serviceable. See below.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• Spellbreaker ameliorates this weakness somewhat because full counter can be timed in such a way that it is impossible to deal with it on reaction alone. Berserker and core do not have this advantage so they are many times weaker.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Gonna have to disagree with you there. I don't think chaining blocks alone is what causes Spellbreaker to function properly as a melee class. I'm more inclined to believe it's a combination of lowered telegraphs and a handful of situations that can occur/you need to deal with if you manage to get hit by full counter, from reveal/cc from magebane to daze jamming any skills you may have needed to cast. Instead of just punishing poor habits like core warrior and berserker to do damage, Spellbreaker can create more opportunities to do damage. That's basically what warrior needs.

Also. Spellbreaker being serviceable does nothing to address the issues with Berserker or Core, and even with FC it is still exploitable in much the same way. Warrior is still weak overall.

@Stand The Wall.6987 said:most likely he doesn't mean sitting there eating hits, but counter attacking at key moments.

This is understood. I'm probably just frustrated trying to get berserker to work.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

@"Trevor Boyer.6524" said:I don't know how else to explain it man. Top Spellbreakers have been playing this way for years. If you were to ask a War main who plays top 100 or higher to teach you, the very first thing they will say is: "Play counter offensively. Only ever go aggressive if a person is bad or if someone is 15% health and you are securing a kill."Pretty much what they do is they stay on top of you and wait for you to make actions first, then they use certain things in retaliation that keeps you shut down and unable to do anything, but you have to make actions first or their skills aren't designed too well for offense.

• Dagger 3 = fast interrupt when you go to do anything, bonus interrupt heal utilities or someone's burst. of course you have to wait for the person to begin actions before you can really optimize the use of Dagger 3.
• Dagger F1 Burst = tag rev & absorb on it and then land it when the person generates all their boons in preparation for some burst or defense cycle. another skill that you can't just chase and use. you need to really make sure it lands when it matters. sometimes need to wait till a person generates their stab and might to optimize the use of Dagger F1.
• GS 3 = it's a free evade and functions similar to IH or Unrelenting Assault that it attacks while defending at the same time. this skill is largely responsible for sustain on war. this is again not an offensive skill, it is counter offensive.
• Bull's Charge = another skill that people try too aggressively to use very offensively. this skill is best used when you can capitalize on the evade frame to make an opponent's burst whiff, while him being in his own animation will make sure your knockdown CC lands. and then of course 100 blades and GS F1.
• Full Counter = nothing in the game is as counter offensive as Full Counter. obviously this is not a skill that you run 600 range across a field at someone expecting to get close and use. you wait until those moments when you know people aren't expecting the FC to proc, like when a mesmer's clones are hitting you constantly so you can use whenever you want ect ect.
• Magebane Tether = on the other hand, this skill is just all psychological in use. it can be used offensively, counter offensively, defensively. just having it on a person without intending to use the CC puts pressure and limitations on their options for positioning, mobility, disengage, and options in general.

There are times when I am against Vaans as example, where he will not take actions at all until he sees what I'm doing first. Then when you go to do something, that's when the good ones see your animations and know if they have time for a big CC to land or need to use dagger 3 rupt, or possibly just dodge. Everything good Spellbreakers do is counter offensive. I've been playing quite a bit of War myself lately for something different to do, and I can say that War is just bad at pressing an offense outside of a few exceptions where the sheer amount of CC can counter something, like a Necro.

But when a War wisely plays counter offensively on say a side node, it is still most definitely of the hardest classes/builds to get off a node or beat in a 1v1 in general.

No other class can really do it in the same way that War can.

I think I see what the issue is. You and I have different concepts of what "warrior" is referring to when considering balance. You are specifically referring to spellbreaker. I am also considering core and Berserker. I am aware that Spellbreaker is serviceable. See below.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

• Spellbreaker ameliorates this weakness somewhat because full counter can be timed in such a way that it is impossible to deal with it on reaction alone. Berserker and core do not have this advantage so they are many times weaker.

@Azure The Heartless.3261 said:Gonna have to disagree with you there. I don't think chaining blocks alone is what causes Spellbreaker to function properly as a melee class. I'm more inclined to believe it's a combination of lowered telegraphs and a handful of situations that can occur/you need to deal with if you manage to get hit by full counter, from reveal/cc from magebane to daze jamming any skills you may have needed to cast. Instead of just punishing poor habits like core warrior and berserker to do damage, Spellbreaker can create more opportunities to do damage. That's basically what warrior needs.

Also. Spellbreaker being serviceable does nothing to address the issues with Berserker or Core, and even with FC it is still exploitable in much the same way. Warrior is still weak overall.

@"Stand The Wall.6987" said:most likely he doesn't mean sitting there eating hits, but counter attacking at key moments.

This is understood. I'm probably just frustrated trying to get berserker to work.

Dude I've seen some useful Condi Serk builds being ran lately. Maybe they are just specifically strong vs. a Soulbeast or something, but I had a game recently where some guy running Sword/Mace offhand "Yes mace offhand" was destroying everyone with some kind of weird build that also had GS on swap. So what this guy was doing was running double peel mobility with Sword 2 and GS, so you couldn't catch him. He was also using that trait that gives stability every time he breaks a stun so you couldn't stop his offenses with CC, you can only dodge or run. Then he'd come in and + fights like a DP Thief running some kind of full DPS amulet. If he could nail you with the 3s knockdown on the mace offhand and you had no stun breaks, you die. That 3s knockdown... is undervalued... it's an AoE that can down everyone in a team fight for 3s man. I don't think mace offhand has been reviewed for use since they removed so much stab and boon duration. Like 3s is enough time for people to cleave you out before you get up and also was enough time for his sword burst F1 to land KO damage as well.

This build he was running was exceedingly obnoxious when it wades into a team fight benefitting double scourge stack support, which did two things for him. 1) Obv gives him a ton of boon removal and barrier stacks. 2) Generates a lot of boon removal so people don't have stability often when dude rolled in with a 3s AoE knockdown.

I"ll tell you what, recently a lot of weird things are suddenly viable I've noticed. I think we've all been tunnel visioning old builds for too long. Maybe time to revisit some forgotten options with how much things have changed.

[Lucio.4190]

I've reading through this discussion and I feel it's a very interesting subject. I'm playing a Mesmer and it's not because they dominate, more like I'm having fun and enjoying in another way than competitive.But as this discussion has developed into "winning" some debate instead of finding a solution or answer to the original question, some arguments are being aggressive with hidden insults. I understand that the subject has been like poison to the community, when some are still certain that the class used to be overpowered while others think it wasn't. But, the aggressive tone is not helping.

My experience now is that the lack of a second dodge makes it difficult. While enemies have 2 powerful attacks, I need to keep a distance after my first dodge and give my enemy time to reload.I don't get many hits, if I don't compensate by switching an attack skill for an extra evasive skill. The result of that is low dps and very long fights.How can I get a second dodge without ruining the current balance?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

@"Lucio.4190" said:I've reading through this discussion and I feel it's a very interesting subject. I'm playing a Mesmer and it's not because they dominate, more like I'm having fun and enjoying in another way than competitive.But as this discussion has developed into "winning" some debate instead of finding a solution or answer to the original question, some arguments are being aggressive with hidden insults. I understand that the subject has been like poison to the community, when some are still certain that the class used to be overpowered while others think it wasn't. But, the aggressive tone is not helping.

My experience now is that the lack of a second dodge makes it difficult. While enemies have 2 powerful attacks, I need to keep a distance after my first dodge and give my enemy time to reload.I don't get many hits, if I don't compensate by switching an attack skill for an extra evasive skill. The result of that is low dps and very long fights.How can I get a second dodge without ruining the current balance?

This is what I mean.

When you dodge roll, you can still contest nodes while doing it. But when you have to stealth and invuln and kite too much, you cannot contest nodes. <- This is the biggest problem that Mirage has now with only 1 dodge roll. It simply cannot stay on a node if it wants to win a 1v1 combat at all. The lose of the 2nd dodge roll hurts its conquest presence a lot more than most people realize, in terms of being able to hold nodes.

[Daishi.6027]

Power mirage never over performed with original EM. All the arguments that it makes the class OP and broken is a red herring to the true issues and A-net believed the lunacy of the forums. As a result Mirage was like a puzzle piece broken and duct tapped back together to make condi fit in a meta because A-net was incapable of balancing it any other way- at least in a way that didn't require time and effort. This isn't good design and feels so clunky that it isn't fun to play, and is an outright slap in the face when rangers and thieves get more on demand access to evades AND both have better on demand access to stealth, yet NEITHER of them have been butchered in such a terrible way. These double standards are why the game is so dead.

People arguing by fear is a faulty, fear as a condition has always functioned in that weird place between hard CC like a stun but in the form similar to soft cleanable CC as a condition. This means general cleanse as counter play comes with the territory and isn't in itself any more or less of a reason to change EM. Especially since it's only utilized by a few classes, and is not a standard across all the classes. It is very prevalent in the game because of the prevailing meta, but we should all hopefully expect that to eventually change.