Stealth: Why 3?

[Quench.7091]

So I was looking through the changes to stealth throughout time, using the wiki edit history feature to look through the revisions. At first I was looking at the dates for when before and after the stealth duration stacking change occurred, because I felt like it was a huge change to stealth. It is what allowed people to start perma stealth through smoke combo fields and other sources of stealth. At launch, the duration of these stealth abilities was 3. Before the duration stacking change, the duration of stealth for these abilities was 3. After the duration stacking change, the duration of stealth for these abilities was 3. Currently, the duration of stealth for these abilities is 3. The exceptions seem to be Thief downed state abilities, Shadow Portal, and PvP/WvW Sneak Gyro. There are cases were they're willing to have durations less than 3 for the sake of balance.

Why do stealth abilities almost always have 3 second durations? Other boons seem to be more considerate towards their duration. Stealth is usually just 3. Is it some magic number? Did play testers really like the duration as 3 when the game first launched?

[Linken.6345]

Stealth is OP hence the duration is low.

[Quench.7091]

What I mean is that it's unusually 3 seconds most of the time. Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations. You can get vigor for 10 seconds or you can get it for 2.25 seconds. This tuning goes down to fractions of a second. They get rather specific. Stealth on the other hand just goes "3" most of the time. Sometimes they go down to 2 or even 1 second, but they usually keep the number rounded and at 3. You can even find random items and event skills with 3 second stealth in PvE content, it's just that common of a number. The one exception to stealth being a rounded number off the top of my head is Sneak Gyro in PvP settings, which is 1.5 seconds in a pulse of 6.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

[Quench.7091]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

How does this invalidate what I said.

If you want to know why the developers went with 3 seconds, only they will be able to answer that question.

We as players can only make assumptions as to what the goal of the implementations are, thus assuming the reasoning behind them, but hardly why specific values were picked.

In this case it's what I said:

• keep durations short
• don't let the effect stack to much (which is also why there is a 15s cap on stealth)
• balance individual skills around 1 and 2, hence why gyro gets 1.5s as to not make it give to much stealth during it's 6 ticks

[Quench.7091]

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

How does this invalidate what I said.

If you want to know why the developers went with 3 seconds, only they will be able to answer that question.

We as players can only make assumptions as to what the goal of the implementations are, thus assuming the reasoning behind them, but hardly why specific values were picked.

In this case it's what I said:

• keep durations short
• don't let the effect stack to much (which is also why there is a 15s cap on stealth)
• balance individual skills around 1 and 2, hence why gyro gets 1.5s as to not make it give to much stealth during it's 6 ticks

Sometimes developers have quotes from the past on why they do things, which is why I asked. They also cannot answer questions that have never been brought up, although I'm not expecting them to respond here. I agree that durations should be short. I agree that they shouldn't stack up too high. I appreciate them fine tuning Sneak Gyro. Why 3?

[Sobx.1758]

@Quench.7091 said:Why 3?

...and why not?

[Fueki.4753]

For all we know, three seconds may just have been an arbitrary choice, or they painted numbers on a board and played darts to decide.

Or maybe they thought about food when designing stealth and went with the three-second rule.

[Quench.7091]

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Why 3?

...and why not?

Throughout all of the changes in the game, the duration of stealth abilities has remained mostly consistent at 3 seconds, even when those changes directly impacted stealth. It's impressive! The answer to why not would also answer the question of why, so I would also like to hear that too, if anything is out there.

[Yasai.3549]

Maybe because 3s is probably the exact amount of time before Revealed debuff from making an attack from Stealth wear off.?

May be a design and balance choice altogether but if the Devs don't answer, we don't know the real reason and OP dismissing all other Players' response here is just a huge waste of time and this thread should be deleted because it's not trying to discuss anything.

[Astralporing.1957]

@Quench.7091 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Why 3?

...and why not?

Throughout all of the changes in the game, the duration of stealth abilities has remained mostly consistent at 3 seconds, even when those changes directly impacted stealth. It's impressive! The answer to why not would also answer the question of why, so I would also like to hear that too, if anything is out there.Most likely they eyeballed it in the beginning and it worked, so they decided to stick with it. Adjusting stealth length is something that can very easily turn out to be heavily problematic, so they probably don't want to test new values if the old ones work.

[Quench.7091]

@Yasai.3549 said:Maybe because 3s is probably the exact amount of time before Revealed debuff from making an attack from Stealth wear off.?

May be a design and balance choice altogether but if the Devs don't answer, we don't know the real reason and OP dismissing all other Players' response here is just a huge waste of time and this thread should be deleted because it's not trying to discuss anything.

Yeah, I guess it would be okay deleting.

Stealth abilities range from 1 second durations to 5 second durations. That's a diverse and acceptable range, especially when you toss in how we can have fractions of a second. The posts I replied to suggested that going higher than 3 would be unacceptable, which is a fine stance to take, although I do think there are instances where durations higher than 3 are acceptable. When I gave an example of a duration lower than 3, that was me trying to discuss that there are other stealth durations that we do tolerate. There's a whole range of acceptable stealth durations, but interestingly they're mostly 3, which I felt is worth talking about.

It's probably not worth talking about here though.

@Astralporing.1957 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Sobx.1758 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Why 3?

...and why not?

Throughout all of the changes in the game, the duration of stealth abilities has remained mostly consistent at 3 seconds, even when those changes directly impacted stealth. It's impressive! The answer to why not would also answer the question of why, so I would also like to hear that too, if anything is out there.Most likely they eyeballed it in the beginning and it worked, so they decided to stick with it. Adjusting stealth length is something that can very easily turn out to be heavily problematic, so they probably don't want to test new values if the old ones work.

I don't know about the problematic part, as I suppose that would be on a case-by-case basis, but this is a reasonable assumption. It's easier to stick with a years old default value. I wouldn't be surprised if this was the reason.

[HappyHubris.1096]

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

Stealth is a binary effect: either enemies can see you or they cannot. It's not like regen, protection, might, etc. where you can modify the values or the number of stacks. It's also an ability that can be used to avoid / leave combat entirely. So perhaps 3s is what the devs consider a useful amount to give the user a break in combat without trivializing content?

[Quench.7091]

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

Stealth is a binary effect: either enemies can see you or they cannot. It's not like regen, protection, might, etc. where you can modify the values or the number of stacks. It's also an ability that can be used to avoid / leave combat entirely. So perhaps 3s is what the devs consider a useful amount to give the user a break in combat without trivializing content?

That seems reasonable. Stealth is hard to compare something to. It's a very unique and less predictable mechanic.

I'll try something that's more predictable, but kind of shares some elements, which would be blocking. You can block attacks to avoid entering combat, which is actually pretty useful if you want to waypoint or mount out of a situation. You need to cancel the block if you want to attack, like you need to cancel stealth to attack. Some blocks last 3 seconds. Some last 2.5 seconds. Some last 2 seconds. The shortest I remember seeing was 1.5 seconds. Some last longer, but only take a certain number of hits, although I don't really think those can be comparable to stealth. Like stealth, blocks do more than just do what they're most known for. Unlike stealth, they seem to have have pretty decently spread out duration times depending on what the blocks do in addition to the block they provide.

Think there are reasons for why a stealth provides a 3 second duration most of the time, but blocks spread out their durations depending on the utility provided by the block?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Quench.7091 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

Stealth is a binary effect: either enemies can see you or they cannot. It's not like regen, protection, might, etc. where you can modify the values or the number of stacks. It's also an ability that can be used to avoid / leave combat entirely. So perhaps 3s is what the devs consider a useful amount to give the user a break in combat without trivializing content?

That seems reasonable. Stealth is hard to compare something to. It's a very unique and less predictable mechanic.

I'll try something that's more predictable, but kind of shares some elements, which would be blocking. You can block attacks to avoid entering combat, which is actually pretty useful if you want to waypoint or mount out of a situation. You need to cancel the block if you want to attack, like you need to cancel stealth to attack. Some blocks last 3 seconds. Some last 2.5 seconds. Some last 2 seconds. The shortest I remember seeing was 1.5 seconds. Some last longer, but only take a certain number of hits, although I don't really think those can be comparable to stealth. Like stealth, blocks do more than just do what they're most known for. Unlike stealth, they seem to have have pretty decently spread out duration times depending on what the blocks do in addition to the block they provide.

Think there are reasons for why a stealth provides a 3 second duration most of the time, but blocks spread out their durations depending on the utility provided by the block?

Block and block duration is usually balanced around everything else the class has in its kit. With stealth, everything is balanced around the class having stealth instead going as far as adding a unique de-buff on top.

The reason is found in the differences between block and stealth, which are vast if you go beyond the "put in combat" aspect. Being put in combat or being kept in combat is far easier countered with stealth than with block, because getting to that 1,500 range is far easier when not visible.

The other issue is the de-targeting when being stealthed. With more but shorter duration stealth options, the de-targeting still causes issues for opponents. This is handled differently with stealth via the revealed de-buff which is 3s in length, 4s in structured pvp. The developers do not want de-targeting effects chainable at below 3s, while balancing stealth abilities with shorter than 3s duration is probably a pain given lag and latency.

[Quench.7091]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

Stealth is a binary effect: either enemies can see you or they cannot. It's not like regen, protection, might, etc. where you can modify the values or the number of stacks. It's also an ability that can be used to avoid / leave combat entirely. So perhaps 3s is what the devs consider a useful amount to give the user a break in combat without trivializing content?

That seems reasonable. Stealth is hard to compare something to. It's a very unique and less predictable mechanic.

I'll try something that's more predictable, but kind of shares some elements, which would be blocking. You can block attacks to avoid entering combat, which is actually pretty useful if you want to waypoint or mount out of a situation. You need to cancel the block if you want to attack, like you need to cancel stealth to attack. Some blocks last 3 seconds. Some last 2.5 seconds. Some last 2 seconds. The shortest I remember seeing was 1.5 seconds. Some last longer, but only take a certain number of hits, although I don't really think those can be comparable to stealth. Like stealth, blocks do more than just do what they're most known for. Unlike stealth, they seem to have have pretty decently spread out duration times depending on what the blocks do in addition to the block they provide.

Think there are reasons for why a stealth provides a 3 second duration most of the time, but blocks spread out their durations depending on the utility provided by the block?

Block and block duration is usually balanced around everything else the class has in its kit. With stealth, everything is balanced around the class having stealth instead going as far as adding a unique de-buff on top.

The reason is found in the differences between block and stealth, which are vast if you go beyond the "put in combat" aspect. Being put in combat or being kept in combat is far easier countered with stealth than with block, because getting to that 1,500 range is far easier when not visible.

The other issue is the de-targeting when being stealthed. With more but shorter duration stealth options, the de-targeting still causes issues for opponents. This is handled differently with stealth via the revealed de-buff which is 3s in length, 4s in structured pvp. The developers do not want de-targeting effects chainable at below 3s, while balancing stealth abilities with shorter than 3s duration is probably a pain given lag and latency.

Yeah, nothing really compares to stealth, really. Block is probably the closest thing to it, yet it's still really far off. All I can really do is point out how there are times when stealth actually diverts from the 3 second duration, although nowhere near as often. For example, Shadow Meld is 3 seconds in PvE and 2 seconds in PvP. Instead of balancing the ability around a stealth duration of 3 seconds for PvP, they balanced the ability around the utility and cooldown. It's sort've a glimpse in how things could operate, but for some reason the 3 is preferred. It's kind of like what they do to balance block, but they really like to avoid it.

The latency point is a good point to make. Block doesn't really benefit or get harmed from latency to the same extent as stealth would, so keeping stealth in bigger chunks and balancing around that might be the goal.

[Cyninja.2954]

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

Stealth is a binary effect: either enemies can see you or they cannot. It's not like regen, protection, might, etc. where you can modify the values or the number of stacks. It's also an ability that can be used to avoid / leave combat entirely. So perhaps 3s is what the devs consider a useful amount to give the user a break in combat without trivializing content?

That seems reasonable. Stealth is hard to compare something to. It's a very unique and less predictable mechanic.

I'll try something that's more predictable, but kind of shares some elements, which would be blocking. You can block attacks to avoid entering combat, which is actually pretty useful if you want to waypoint or mount out of a situation. You need to cancel the block if you want to attack, like you need to cancel stealth to attack. Some blocks last 3 seconds. Some last 2.5 seconds. Some last 2 seconds. The shortest I remember seeing was 1.5 seconds. Some last longer, but only take a certain number of hits, although I don't really think those can be comparable to stealth. Like stealth, blocks do more than just do what they're most known for. Unlike stealth, they seem to have have pretty decently spread out duration times depending on what the blocks do in addition to the block they provide.

Think there are reasons for why a stealth provides a 3 second duration most of the time, but blocks spread out their durations depending on the utility provided by the block?

Block and block duration is usually balanced around everything else the class has in its kit. With stealth, everything is balanced around the class having stealth instead going as far as adding a unique de-buff on top.

The reason is found in the differences between block and stealth, which are vast if you go beyond the "put in combat" aspect. Being put in combat or being kept in combat is far easier countered with stealth than with block, because getting to that 1,500 range is far easier when not visible.

The other issue is the de-targeting when being stealthed. With more but shorter duration stealth options, the de-targeting still causes issues for opponents. This is handled differently with stealth via the revealed de-buff which is 3s in length, 4s in structured pvp. The developers do not want de-targeting effects chainable at below 3s, while balancing stealth abilities with shorter than 3s duration is probably a pain given lag and latency.

Yeah, nothing really compares to stealth, really. Block is probably the closest thing to it, yet it's still really far off. All I can really do is point out how there are times when stealth actually diverts from the 3 second duration, although nowhere near as often. For example, Shadow Meld is 3 seconds in PvE and 2 seconds in PvP. Instead of balancing the ability around a stealth duration of 3 seconds for PvP, they balanced the ability around the utility and cooldown. It's sort've a glimpse in how things could operate, but for some reason the 3 is preferred. It's kind of like what they do to balance block, but they really like to avoid it.

The latency point is a good point to make. Block doesn't really benefit or get harmed from latency to the same extent as stealth would, so keeping stealth in bigger chunks and balancing around that might be the goal.

True, but Shadow Meld actually just proves the point further that the developers try to implement stealth durations of 3s. The duration for this skill was changed over 2 years after implementation of the skill and likely only out of absolute necessity and only in competitive game modes AND it removes the other component to stealth: revealed. Which as mentioned is in place to balance for other aspects like continuous de-targeting.

It just goes to show that even with careful planing, not everything goes as planned. I'm also quite sure the developers regret putting reveal removal on the elite because it makes it very difficult to balance.

[Quench.7091]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@HappyHubris.1096 said:

@Quench.7091 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Quench.7091 said:Other boons tend to have a wide range of durations.

and there you have it. Stealth is not a boon. Neither are auras which are also available via blast combos and are similar in short durations as stealth most of the time.

The simplest answer: the developers don't want these effects stacked easily and for long durations and given they are not boons, this does not conflict with how boons behave (aka concentration).

But in that same post I pointed out a stealth 'effect' that had a 1.5 duration. Why 3? When working with such little time, decimals can be useful for fine tuning.

Stealth is a binary effect: either enemies can see you or they cannot. It's not like regen, protection, might, etc. where you can modify the values or the number of stacks. It's also an ability that can be used to avoid / leave combat entirely. So perhaps 3s is what the devs consider a useful amount to give the user a break in combat without trivializing content?

That seems reasonable. Stealth is hard to compare something to. It's a very unique and less predictable mechanic.

I'll try something that's more predictable, but kind of shares some elements, which would be blocking. You can block attacks to avoid entering combat, which is actually pretty useful if you want to waypoint or mount out of a situation. You need to cancel the block if you want to attack, like you need to cancel stealth to attack. Some blocks last 3 seconds. Some last 2.5 seconds. Some last 2 seconds. The shortest I remember seeing was 1.5 seconds. Some last longer, but only take a certain number of hits, although I don't really think those can be comparable to stealth. Like stealth, blocks do more than just do what they're most known for. Unlike stealth, they seem to have have pretty decently spread out duration times depending on what the blocks do in addition to the block they provide.

Think there are reasons for why a stealth provides a 3 second duration most of the time, but blocks spread out their durations depending on the utility provided by the block?

Block and block duration is usually balanced around everything else the class has in its kit. With stealth, everything is balanced around the class having stealth instead going as far as adding a unique de-buff on top.

The reason is found in the differences between block and stealth, which are vast if you go beyond the "put in combat" aspect. Being put in combat or being kept in combat is far easier countered with stealth than with block, because getting to that 1,500 range is far easier when not visible.

The other issue is the de-targeting when being stealthed. With more but shorter duration stealth options, the de-targeting still causes issues for opponents. This is handled differently with stealth via the revealed de-buff which is 3s in length, 4s in structured pvp. The developers do not want de-targeting effects chainable at below 3s, while balancing stealth abilities with shorter than 3s duration is probably a pain given lag and latency.

Yeah, nothing really compares to stealth, really. Block is probably the closest thing to it, yet it's still really far off. All I can really do is point out how there are times when stealth actually diverts from the 3 second duration, although nowhere near as often. For example, Shadow Meld is 3 seconds in PvE and 2 seconds in PvP. Instead of balancing the ability around a stealth duration of 3 seconds for PvP, they balanced the ability around the utility and cooldown. It's sort've a glimpse in how things could operate, but for some reason the 3 is preferred. It's kind of like what they do to balance block, but they really like to avoid it.

The latency point is a good point to make. Block doesn't really benefit or get harmed from latency to the same extent as stealth would, so keeping stealth in bigger chunks and balancing around that might be the goal.

True, but Shadow Meld actually just proves the point further that the developers try to implement stealth durations of 3s. The duration for this skill was changed over 2 years after implementation of the skill and likely only out of absolute necessity and only in competitive game modes AND it removes the other component to stealth: revealed. Which as mentioned is in place to balance for other aspects like continuous de-targeting.

It just goes to show that even with careful planing, not everything goes as planned. I'm also quite sure the developers regret putting reveal removal on the elite because it makes it very difficult to balance.

Yeah, the entire deadeye didn't exactly go as planned. Haha! They had to throw the baby out with the bathwater and bring in a new baby, if I recall.

I'd probably be satisfied if a developer said they needed to keep stealth in large chunks for latency. Yeah! Thanks for the discussion with me!

[Gerebos.1065]

I would never put down the thief if there were better stealth mechanics. I loved how WoW managed the stealth mechanics but in most Asian MMOS stealth mechanics are temporary but if you chain it correctly you are kind of glass cannon.Stealth in these games are maked for combos and chains not for stealthing around,scouting or just for fun. As far as I observed*