Problem for balancing with different contents

[WindBlade.8749]

There is a problem with patchnote.

The last patchnote show it perfectly, it's been so much time pve din't get a patchnote and it's finally get one which is pretty good, well at least most of it (i hate the balance on sb and what they did with exposure but that will be for another topic).

There is no way to keep things good if you use the same balance for pve, pvp, wvw they are completly different gamemode that ask for balance that oppose themself.

Tourment is the perfect exemple, it's a good thing for pve, since most of mobs don't move or not enough which make condi class using tourment usless in most of pve content which this balance fix it, so it's really a good change (maybe tune down some tourment generation (look at rev) to avoid overpowered build since it's was not made with the new tourment buff in mind).

But for pve it's the reverse, there is no mobs, the target are players which always move everywhere fast, so it's a direct nerf that basicly delete condi build that use tourment (basicly flip the tourment is usless from pve to pvp).

 

PvP, WvW and pve players basicly play different game that don't ask for the same need and balance at all, the problem is what the solution, should tourment be keeped for target in movement in pvp/WvW only and imobile target in PvE ? it's will be a better balance but we start to have a trend where gamemodes become even more different game if even boon don't work in the same way.

 

 

And no you can't say "it's pve content don't balance it nobody play it" (or replace pve with pvp, wvw, raid, fractal) things should be balanced even if it's target only some gamemode as long you don't destroy the rest (maybe aenet really should to split gamemodes as different games to balance things without destroying the rest like tourment balance did)

Edited April 30, 2021 by WindBlade.8749

[XenesisII.1540]

Even if you're balancing for 3 game modes they have the ability to tweak numbers (damage/cooldowns/charges/etc) in each of them. There was absolutely no need to completely switch torment for pve needs and screw over pvp with it when they could have simply changed the damage on it for pve. They need to stop breaking mechanics and think about numbers first. Mirage one dodge in pvp is another example of this.

 

I'm glad pve got buffs, you can kill stuff 30s faster, but the pvp side will suffer even more for this.

[WindBlade.8749]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Even if you're balancing for 3 game modes they have the ability to tweak numbers (damage/cooldowns/charges/etc) in each of them. There was absolutely no need to completely switch torment for pve needs and screw over pvp with it when they could have simply changed the damage on it for pve. They need to stop breaking mechanics and think about numbers first. Mirage one dodge in pvp is another example of this.

 

I'm glad pve got buffs, you can kill stuff 30s faster, but the pvp side will suffer even more for this.

it's ways more than that in pve, basicly a lot of specs suddendly become viable were they were ussless before because of how tourment work, tweking the number is not enough to keep them viable (mirage in pve for exemple was usless except on 2-3 boss, now it's will be usful for a dozen of boss and all the openworlds, maybe even fractals).

[XenesisII.1540]

Meanwhile mirage already broken and useless in wvw will be even more broken and useless with a broken torment which is one of it's main conditions. Tweaking numbers is not enough? but you know that's essentially what happened here by switching the bonus damage from moving to not moving? they could have simply increased the base dot portion of damage instead and not screw over the  entire mechanic for pvp.

 

I highly doubt they'll compete with CFB in fractals. Open world is meaningless when there's dozens of people usually around to do any bosses. GG Raids I guess.

 

 

[WindBlade.8749]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Meanwhile mirage already broken and useless in wvw will be even more broken and useless with a broken torment which is one of it's main conditions. Tweaking numbers is not enough? but you know that's essentially what happened here by switching the bonus damage from moving to not moving? they could have simply increased the base dot portion of damage instead and not screw over the  entire mechanic for pvp.

 

I highly doubt they'll compete with CFB in fractals. Open world is meaningless when there's dozens of people usually around to do any bosses. GG Raids I guess.

 

 

Tweaks the number of the basic dots when mobs are not moving will make all condi tourment based class way more op on all the boss in pve which they are currently already overpowered on, just look at largos or matthias, which is why they can't just tweak numbers, reworking to make it viable on immobile mob is way more logic since it's stop them staying overpowered on theses few boss and make them viable on most of the content of pve.

 

Like i say the state of pve and pvp are so different that it's hard to have a balance

Edited April 30, 2021 by WindBlade.8749

[XenesisII.1540]

So make something viable for pve by screwing it over in pvp? is that how balancing really should be done?

[WindBlade.8749]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

So make something viable for pve by screwing it over in pvp? is that how balancing really should be done?

Of course not ! but i see a lot of people players non pve gamemode and wondering how the hecks theses change make sens, that because they are made for PvE.

That the whole point of this topic, to discuss if it's really a good thing to make balance on some gamemode only even if we reach a point where the gamemode don't look the same at all.

Tourment needed to be rework for pve, they did it in a good way, but that screwed up pvp, the easy fix is to change how to boon work dependly of the gamemode.

Honestly i prefer them thinking pve,pvp,wvw as different game this patch just show how it's an impossible task to balance them while keeping the skills, meca homogem in all gamemodes.

Edited April 30, 2021 by WindBlade.8749

[XenesisII.1540]

Sorry but making something work completely different in each game is not the way to go for balancing either, that is also a bigger nightmare to deal with, you'll just be asking players to keep track of every little detail that changes between modes. If I play mirage in pve I want it to function the same in wvw or pvp, I don't want to go into another mode and feel like I'm playing something different, if I wanted something different I play another class, that's where the line of mechanic differences should be drawn.

 

Torment isn't the only single thing they could have tweaked to bring up damage in pve.

[WindBlade.8749]

1 hour ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

Sorry but making something work completely different in each game is not the way to go for balancing either, that is also a bigger nightmare to deal with, you'll just be asking players to keep track of every little detail that changes between modes. If I play mirage in pve I want it to function the same in wvw or pvp, I don't want to go into another mode and feel like I'm playing something different, if I wanted something different I play another class, that's where the line of mechanic differences should be drawn.

 

Torment isn't the only single thing they could have tweaked to bring up damage in pve.

so should the condi tourment class stay usless in most pve content and overpowered in niche pve content to keep another gamemode more homogen ? how is that fair that it's pvp that keep the good balance, and if we reverse how is that fair that it's the pve that keep the good balance.

Sure small details will be a nightmare to keep trace if it's different in every gamemode, but we speak about tourment, a condition which is a major mecanic in this game, you can track something like this.

[XenesisII.1540]

What are you talking about?

Good balance in pvp?

What?

 

They've constantly nerfed mirage and scourge the past 4 years in wvw, mirage is useless with one dodge, scourge is only kept around for boon corruption otherwise there's better damage classes to use, Rev's got most of their conditions changed to torment a year ago much to the benefit of pve, hello Lord Hizen soloing bosses this past week.

 

There are many other conditions and damage numbers they could have tweaked instead.

Torment isn't the one and only last resort to fix class dps, it was just the easiest laziest thing for them to switch.

[slave to the grind.5028]

5 hours ago, XenesisII.1540 said:

What are you talking about?

Good balance in pvp?

What?

 

They've constantly nerfed mirage and scourge the past 4 years in wvw, mirage is useless with one dodge, scourge is only kept around for boon corruption otherwise there's better damage classes to use, Rev's got most of their conditions changed to torment a year ago much to the benefit of pve, hello Lord Hizen soloing bosses this past week.

 

There are many other conditions and damage numbers they could have tweaked instead.

Torment isn't the one and only last resort to fix class dps, it was just the easiest laziest thing for them to switch.

Scourge -was- kept around for boon corruption, you mean. You corrupt boons into torment primarily on necro. So, unless you're really, really a super duper team player, why play condi necro now?

[Konrad Curze.5130]

On 5/1/2021 at 12:40 AM, WindBlade.8749 said:

And no you can't say "it's pve content don't balance it nobody play it" (or replace pve with pvp, wvw, raid, fractal) things should be balanced even if it's target only some gamemode as long you don't destroy the rest (maybe aenet really should to split gamemodes as different games to balance things without destroying the rest like tourment balance did)

Im sorry but Im gona say it because its the truth

 

practically noone plays PvP, like, at all, in the entire world

 

why devs insist in holding their game design hostage to a mode that died, utterly and completly, all the way back in 2015 is beyond me. the way PvP balance affects and pollutes the game is just insane

 

they should scrap PvP balancing completly, undo every single change they have ever done in that regard (as in, delete them entirely from the code and database), and  give another full pass reconsidering the design of all profs from the point of views of PvE and WvW exclusively

Edited May 7, 2021 by Konrad Curze.5130

[HappyHubris.1096]

If you balanced by number of players ANet would ignore fractals, raids, WvW, and sPvP to focus exclusively on Open World balance.

[Jski.6180]

They split the balance and it works but then they un-split them for no good reason that where the problem is. The split balancing feels more like a bate and switch then real balancing between the different game types.

[Senqu.8054]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:40 PM, Konrad Curze.5130 said:

Im sorry but Im gona say it because its the truth

 

practically noone plays PvP, like, at all, in the entire world

 

why devs insist in holding their game design hostage to a mode that died, utterly and completly, all the way back in 2015 is beyond me. the way PvP balance affects and pollutes the game is just insane

 

they should scrap PvP balancing completly, undo every single change they have ever done in that regard (as in, delete them entirely from the code and database), and  give another full pass reconsidering the design of all profs from the point of views of PvE and WvW exclusively

The ignorance of players like you is by far the biggest Problem this game has. At this point you should consider playing a co-op or something…

[Dawdler.8521]

What they should have done from the start is:

 

1) Balance on the whole for PvP (without the amulet garbage).

2) Make diminishing returns on player stacking and AoE to apply this balance in WvW.

3) Actually balance PvE difficulty around the above.

 

Balancing for PvE first by changing skills and traits and stats is the most kitten idea ever. You balance the mobs, dungeons, bosses etc. Not the kittening players.

[Astralporing.1957]

On 5/10/2021 at 9:46 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

What they should have done from the start is:

 

1) Balance on the whole for PvP (without the amulet garbage).

2) Make diminishing returns on player stacking and AoE to apply this balance in WvW.

3) Actually balance PvE difficulty around the above.

 

Balancing for PvE first by changing skills and traits and stats is the most kitten idea ever. You balance the mobs, dungeons, bosses etc. Not the kittening players.

Not really possible. The way AI and real players act is way too different for that.

 

The combat system is not really suited for AI to be able to utilize it to its fullest. Positioning, prediction and strategic plannings are not something AI is good for. And that's fine, because if these mobs were actually even half as smart as an average player, they would murder the kitten out of 90% of GW2 player population.

 

The best example is with Torment and Confusion. One of the issues with those conditions, from the very beginning, is how making them work better in one mode nerfs them in the other (because both those conditions are based around dealing damage depending on the target behaviour - and mobs and players behave vastly differently). The current change to Torment, for example, seems to be aimed mostly at PvE environment - which means it suddenly became less useful in PvP modes. Similar cases was with one of the earlier reworks of Confusion, that was made with PvP in mind, and thus turned it into something that was next to useless in PvE (and required several followup rebalancings later on in order to bring it back to usefulness - which, btw, hasn't exactly worked all that perfectly well even till now)

[WindBlade.8749]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Not really possible. The way AI and real players act is way too different for that.

 

The combat system is not really suited for AI to be able to utilize it to its fullest. Positioning, prediction and strategic plannings are not something AI is good for. And that's fine, because if these mobs were actually even half as smart as an average player, they would murder the kitten out of 90% of GW2 player population.

 

The best example is with Torment and Confusion. One of the issues with those conditions, from the very beginning, is how making them work better in one mode nerfs them in the other (because both those conditions are based around dealing damage depending on the target behaviour - and mobs and players behave vastly differently). The current change to Torment, for example, seems to be aimed mostly at PvE environment - which means it suddenly became less useful in PvP modes. Similar cases was with one of the earlier reworks of Confusion, that was made with PvP in mind, and thus turned it into something that was next to useless in PvE (and required several followup rebalancings later on in order to bring it back to usefulness - which, btw, hasn't exactly worked all that perfectly well even till now)

that the main problem with balancing on different content like i say they are so different that you can't just balance by changing coefs.


People say "create balance for pvp then modify the coef in pve" but that also don't work and limit some class, perfect exemple is scrapper, necro, spellbreaker, they are designed with pvp/wvw in mind, which make them mostly not work in pve, because the requirement are totally different, what the point to have so much boonstrip like spellbreaker do in pve ? nothing and that the main mechanics of the class.

 

Druid is also an exemple of something that was created with pve in mind, so much that it's really good in pve but people in pvp ask for a total rework because yea, it's was created for instanced content it's totally usless in pvp and making good in pvp will destroy the balance it's have in pve.

 

At this point even if it's a bit extrem for people i think i will just totally rework some specs depending of the gamemode, but yea a bit extreme since it's mean a spec will be tottaly different depending of the gamemode and i see why some people don't want that.

Edited May 13, 2021 by WindBlade.8749