Fix Inspiring Reinforcement Initial Stability in PvP please.

[Shao.7236]

 

This video shows the evidence of the skill being countered as it shouldn't be possible otherwise.

 

No Sigil of Revocation was used, there is a clear 1 second gap in between the Initial and Pulsing which can meant completely losing fight in situations.

 

I'd assume the leap bug is complicated to fix but changing values is not.

[Master Ketsu.4569]

It's not a 1 second gap, more like a 150ms gap. But it's still a bug and should be fixed.

[xXxNikiGoesWildxXx.3678]

It happened to me many times, so yeah this is huge bug.

[apharma.3741]

Heaven forbid there be counterplay to a skill...

 

I know some of you are getting ready to hit that reply button but this skill gives stab within the first 0.25s of it's use which means it's hard to interrupt and the window that isn't covered by the initial stab is just as short. It's quite an impactful ability too doing decent damage, applying weakness and giving allies stab.

 

Sorry my peasant brain defaulted to stab, I mean deluxe pulsing stab.

[Shao.7236]

18 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Heaven forbid there be counterplay to a skill...

 

I know some of you are getting ready to hit that reply button but this skill gives stab within the first 0.25s of it's use which means it's hard to interrupt and the window that isn't covered by the initial stab is just as short. It's quite an impactful ability too doing decent damage, applying weakness and giving allies stab.

 

Sorry my peasant brain defaulted to stab, I mean deluxe pulsing stab.

 

Yes let me just use half my entire resource to get CC'd like it never existed randomly by a small oversight that nobody can realistically predict. Might as well put inconsistent holes into Balanced Stance, Rampage and Lich Form as well so that people can react within what is already unfeasible by the average human, I wouldn't expect it from an exclusive MMORPG player.

 

There was several counters to this skill already before the changes, it's primary purpose should be reliable, it was already nerfed to be possible to counter under more viable scenarios that aren't just the existing Boon removal, Corruption but Multi-CC or just general focus because one stack of stability is not equal to two, Pulsing boons always get removed first and cooldown has minimized it's use as an in and out of stance option. Zzzz.

[CutesySylveon.8290]

1 hour ago, apharma.3741 said:

Heaven forbid there be counterplay to a skill...

 

I know some of you are getting ready to hit that reply button but this skill gives stab within the first 0.25s of it's use which means it's hard to interrupt and the window that isn't covered by the initial stab is just as short. It's quite an impactful ability too doing decent damage, applying weakness and giving allies stab.

 

Sorry my peasant brain defaulted to stab, I mean deluxe pulsing stab.

You realize that this is how it worked before right? It didn't give the initial stab and was extremely weak so it was given stab on cast like it has now. It's not about interrupting the skill, the problem is that you can be yeeted from the road before the pulses start without the initial stab. 

[Shao.7236]

3 minutes ago, CutesySylveon.8290 said:

You realize that this is how it worked before right? It didn't give the initial stab and was extremely weak so it was given stab on cast like it has now. It's not about interrupting the skill, the problem is that you can be yeeted from the road before the pulses start without the initial stab. 

 

@Cal Cohen.2358thought that it'd work for 1 stack a second but there's a clear flaw in the boon addition within the game on the time it takes for the road to be effective.

On 5/6/2021 at 3:52 PM, Master Ketsu.4569 said:

It's not a 1 second gap, more like a 150ms gap. But it's still a bug and should be fixed.

If it's 150ms, how come boon duration doesn't fix it? Adding 0.25 should be more than enough but testing didn't work, it only made it so periodical 2 stacks could be visible.

 

[apharma.3741]

The reality is the window for punishment is very small, even in your videos you pretty much co-ordinated with a guy to show the window of opportunity to be CC'd because it is so small. This gives you some way to get a counter attack in while the skill is still going off and is benefitting allies, as I say heaven forbid a skill actually has something to counter.

 

For those comparing the skill to before having stab on activation, if I remember correctly the original problem was it used the energy, could get interrupted while being cast and you wouldn't get the road/skill. Now you get the road and skill benefits no matter what, just there's a small window of punishment afterwards, I don't think this is that bad for the game considering how beneficial the skill is.

 

Also you are incorrect it does not use half your resource, it is 30% of the bar on a legend that is very cost effective for energy. It only uses half your energy if you literally use it as soon as you swap legend as if blindly doing some kind of rotation that is high reward for low effort.

[Shao.7236]

14 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

The reality is the window for punishment is very small, even in your videos you pretty much co-ordinated with a guy to show the window of opportunity to be CC'd because it is so small. This gives you some way to get a counter attack in while the skill is still going off and is benefitting allies, as I say heaven forbid a skill actually has something to counter.

 

For those comparing the skill to before having stab on activation, if I remember correctly the original problem was it used the energy, could get interrupted while being cast and you wouldn't get the road/skill. Now you get the road and skill benefits no matter what, just there's a small window of punishment afterwards, I don't think this is that bad for the game considering how beneficial the skill is.

 

Also you are incorrect it does not use half your resource, it is 30% of the bar on a legend that is very cost effective for energy. It only uses half your energy if you literally use it as soon as you swap legend as if blindly doing some kind of rotation that is high reward for low effort.

 

Whether the skill is used properly or not, It's RNG in the chaos this game can generate.

 

Whether I use it in or out the legend, being CC'd by a skill that would normally require external factors to bust through Stability is the reason why this is an oversight so that normal CC's don't shut down Jalis users at the slightest breeze, forcing users to lose even more energy as they swap legends for stunbreaking out of what they took as an investment for a safe zone to safely do damage (Nobody is forced to stay close.) while it has several counters already however you're acting like there's none.

 

Optimally playing still has the player left with 5 seconds to wait for the next road coming back to Jalis not counting the effects of chill.

 

Jalis players should be countered by valid factors, not luck. Call monkey low effort high reward all you want, no matter how you will put it this oversight doesn't belong in your claim of skill.

 

Timing boon strips such as Revocation on weapon swap is actually where real skill comes from and most professions can do it if it's not for different mechanics outside of regular weapon swap. Best example, Elementalist has plenty CC's and can deal damage on CC with Weakness too, Weaver has more reliable Stability than Revenant in duration and accessibility, why should they be immune to criticism? Because again, your claims make no sense and it's not overpowered in the slightest, let alone knowing that it's 1 second of pulsing Stability in a restricted area, it's not without it's downsides compared Stability that last longer.

 

Inspiring Reinforcements attempts to mitigate a certain degree CC spam without being totally immune to it as well as everything else in the game that counters Stability, but no let's call this Deluxe Stability when using the skill has random risk of failure instead of an elaborate tactic.

[apharma.3741]

Pulsing stab isn't countered by boon strip, it's one of the reasons pulsing stab was massively reduced in the game because it had little counterplay, if you don't know that you shouldn't really be making comments like you are.

 

Weaver has more reliable stab? Not sure what you're getting at, it has a single stack on one dual skill per weapon combo which has varying amounts of cast times and so can actually be interrupted and prevented, hardly what I would call reliable. You have armour of earth which is reliable and the trait rock solid but again a boon strip is the counter and it's not as comparable as it's not pulsing and both are personal not group stab. Then again we're getting into whataboutism terratory.

 

The stab on initial cast for inspiring reinforcements was for 1 reason, to prevent getting CC'd while casting it so you didn't lose energy and get no effect because unlike other classes it is double punishing to be interrupted. The stab on initial cast means that the skill goes off and you are very unlikely to be interrupted unless someone is quite literally at pro level back when ESL was a thing (spoiler: no-one is at that level anymore) which means you're notreally double punish but at the same time it removes the ability to skillfully interrupt a very strong ability. I just don't think it needs "fixing" as it does allow a small window for someone who is sweaty enough to get good to do something, but as you demonstrated in your videos it has very little impact because the skill always goes off, you get pulsing stab on your road and the enemy usually is weakened.

[Shao.7236]

9 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

Pulsing stab isn't countered by boon strip, it's one of the reasons pulsing stab was massively reduced in the game because it had little counterplay, if you don't know that you shouldn't really be making comments like you are.

 

Weaver has more reliable stab? Not sure what you're getting at, it has a single stack on one dual skill per weapon combo which has varying amounts of cast times and so can actually be interrupted and prevented, hardly what I would call reliable. You have armour of earth which is reliable and the trait rock solid but again a boon strip is the counter and it's not as comparable as it's not pulsing and both are personal not group stab. Then again we're getting into whataboutism terratory.

 

The stab on initial cast for inspiring reinforcements was for 1 reason, to prevent getting CC'd while casting it so you didn't lose energy and get no effect because unlike other classes it is double punishing to be interrupted. The stab on initial cast means that the skill goes off and you are very unlikely to be interrupted unless someone is quite literally at pro level back when ESL was a thing (spoiler: no-one is at that level anymore) which means you're notreally double punish but at the same time it removes the ability to skillfully interrupt a very strong ability. I just don't think it needs "fixing" as it does allow a small window for someone who is sweaty enough to get good to do something, but as you demonstrated in your videos it has very little impact because the skill always goes off, you get pulsing stab on your road and the enemy usually is weakened.

Still missing the point.

 

Implying it took pro level (Laughably played and still playing in tops and against Ex-ESL players if any, to successful fun several times.) to use Revocation or Annulment properly among all the other options of;

 

* Not staying close to the AoE which forces Revenant to over extend out the safe zone.(Common sense might be rarer than expected.)

* Passive clears that are found in every builds, jeez weakness is overpowered. Intelligence Sigil exists too but if you just stayed away from the road as it dissipates, so does Weakness because shocker, the time of effects is in near synchronization with the Stability.

* CC's last longer than you make them out to be, Fear and Taunt are not prevented by the application of Stability. Road is irrelevant, 70% potentially wasted for Stunbreak that can be interrupted again not counting the jank delay of Taunt on several stunbreaks in the game which includes RS and RotGD.

* Repeated/Combined CC's because as you may be missing out again, 1 stack is not equal to 2.

* Boon Strip does counter any Stability with actual skilled input and more often pulsing because "last in first out" rule of order which contrary to your claims of "Deluxe", Road Stab is very very vulnerable to be stripped under any enemy attempts to the point where Revocation can even strip it while in downstate, making a risk for Stomping, that small gap has also proven itself to stop stomps with down skills as well given proper timings.

 

My video is factual evidence that it can occur, if I had to put in every single time it had occured, I would have made a 10 minutes montage instead of quickly putting up something plain and simple to get a point proven.

 

Very strong ability that nobody wants to use as a placeholder legend and prefer being decked out on passive heal spamming upkeep.

 

You have no idea what you're talking about nor know what it means to play with this random chance in mind. You're not meant to interrupt this skill, just like how you're not meant to interrupt any skills that provide Stability, it ain't hard to comprehend but you're making it that difficult for whatever reason.

 

[apharma.3741]

Last I checked most ESL players are not playing much anymore unless you mean the ones that were knocked out in the first rounds. Even then none of them are as good as they were back then, ask them if they feel they are playing better and most will say no except the arrogant ones.

 

Not staying close to the AoE? Good thing there isn't a small node to contest in this game mode!

 

Passive clears in every build? Not sure every build passively clears, most builds I know it's actually active. Regardless the time between road hitting and window to CC and then do something to capitalise on that CC is VERY small where cleansing would likely make you miss out on any follow up.

 

CC's last longer than I think in particular fear and taunt? Yes because who has long duration fear and taunt? Necro and some niche abilities that aren't used on war/ranger for fear but you'd be more worried about stab corruption than anything else, which makes the thread a moot point. Taunt Rev has the longest taunt and most usable taunts are 1s. There's a few longer duration taunts but good luck landing a 1s cast on inspiring reinforcements, at that point I'd say you just got outplayed.

 

Repeated CC's? I feel like this is quite a cop out reasoning here when it's a 1s stab that pulses every 1s. Some classes might be able to do this, most cannot due to refresh time on the stab and cast times on their skills but I feel it's a misplay burning CC's into inspiring reinforcement to strip the stab.

 

Not many classes have boon strip but you are intentionally ignoring that pulsing stab isn't really countered by boon strip as it's reapplied very quickly making removing that 1s stack usually a bad idea compared to trying to remove something like prot.

 

Let's be clear here. I am not saying that this ability needs something removing or rebalancing or anything, I just don't think it needs "fixing" given how stong pulsing team stab (unique to rev if I'm not mistaken) is on an ability that offers little to no way to prevent it going off. You are intentionally ignoring the team aspect and how strong that is.

Edited May 9, 2021 by apharma.3741

[Leonidrex.5649]

36 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

Last I checked most ESL players are not playing much anymore unless you mean the ones that were knocked out in the first rounds. Even then none of them are as good as they were back then, ask them if they feel they are playing better and most will say no except the arrogant ones.

 

Not staying close to the AoE? Good thing there isn't a small node to contest in this game mode!

 

Passive clears in every build? Not sure every build passively clears, most builds I know it's actually active. Regardless the time between road hitting and window to CC and then do something to capitalise on that CC is VERY small where cleansing would likely make you miss out on any follow up.

 

CC's last longer than I think in particular fear and taunt? Yes because who has long duration fear and taunt? Necro and some niche abilities that aren't used on war/ranger for fear but you'd be more worried about stab corruption than anything else, which makes the thread a moot point. Taunt Rev has the longest taunt and most usable taunts are 1s. There's a few longer duration taunts but good luck landing a 1s cast on inspiring reinforcements, at that point I'd say you just got outplayed.

 

Repeated CC's? I feel like this is quite a cop out reasoning here when it's a 1s stab that pulses every 1s. Some classes might be able to do this, most cannot due to refresh time on the stab and cast times on their skills but I feel it's a misplay burning CC's into inspiring reinforcement to strip the stab.

 

Not many classes have boon strip but you are intentionally ignoring that pulsing stab isn't really countered by boon strip as it's reapplied very quickly making removing that 1s stack usually a bad idea compared to trying to remove something like prot.

 

Let's be clear here. I am not saying that this ability needs something removing or rebalancing or anything, I just don't think it needs "fixing" given how stong pulsing team stab (unique to rev if I'm not mistaken) is on an ability that offers little to no way to prevent it going off. You are intentionally ignoring the team aspect and how strong that is.

I 100% disagree with you.
Bugged skills should be fixed NO MATTER WHAT.
IF its too strong, nerf it, but keep the skill working properly and functional
Having bugged re-application of stab is not a counterplay, its something that does nothing 99% of the times and 1% of the times kittens you over for no reason.

As for the OP, how about you post bug fixes for positive rev things that are kitten ?
Like how rev port goes over its 1200 range.
How elite hits people standing on the moon.
How chains are bugged and stun-breakes remove them with delay.
I know these without even playing rev, im sure dedicated rev player knows more, ya ?

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

I 100% disagree with you.
Bugged skills should be fixed NO MATTER WHAT.
IF its too strong, nerf it, but keep the skill working properly and functional
Having bugged re-application of stab is not a counterplay, its something that does nothing 99% of the times and 1% of the times kittens you over for no reason.

As for the OP, how about you post bug fixes for positive rev things that are kitten ?
Like how rev port goes over its 1200 range.
How elite hits people standing on the moon.
How chains are bugged and stun-breakes remove them with delay.
I know these without even playing rev, im sure dedicated rev player knows more, ya ?

That's the thing though, I'm not sure it is a bug. Below are the notes for it, you can make the arguement of the OP that it is meant to cover till the road provides it but the wording also implies it's only to help get you there and cover the cast not completely shut down anything you can realistically do to the rev. It is open to interpretation with the wording as always.

 

I still don't think it's a big issue regardless. The timing is very small, someone mentioned 150ms, for being able to CC someone which is very difficult to do and the "counters" are likewise not universally accessible if not basically none existant to most builds and classes. It is also a very unique and strong ability being the only pulsing group stab skill in the game as far as I know. As I said, heaven forbid a skill has counterplay.

 

"Inspiring Reinforcement was not a reliable way to gain stability in response to incoming crowd control because it didn't grant stability until the field finished building, so we added stability on the initial cast."

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-06-20#Revenant

[Leonidrex.5649]

19 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

That's the thing though, I'm not sure it is a bug. Below are the notes for it, you can make the arguement of the OP that it is meant to cover till the road provides it but the wording also implies it's only to help get you there and cover the cast not completely shut down anything you can realistically do to the rev. It is open to interpretation with the wording as always.

 

I still don't think it's a big issue regardless. The timing is very small, someone mentioned 150ms, for being able to CC someone which is very difficult to do and the "counters" are likewise not universally accessible if not basically none existant to most builds and classes. It is also a very unique and strong ability being the only pulsing group stab skill in the game as far as I know. As I said, heaven forbid a skill has counterplay.

 

"Inspiring Reinforcement was not a reliable way to gain stability in response to incoming crowd control because it didn't grant stability until the field finished building, so we added stability on the initial cast."

 

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Game_updates/2017-06-20#Revenant

now that I read through the skill I think I understand what you mean
is this it ?
1 you create a road ( you and allies gain stab )
2 After ~1,2s delay, road is created and you begin getting pulsing stab ( since road creation takes longer than 1s, there is a small window of no stab )
^ is this what you mean? then technically you are right and its not a " bug " per say, but its still something that should just be changed to cover stab.

BTW Why the kitten does this skill do everything?
why high damage, loads of weakness in aoe with almost 0 cast time?
Rev is played by the best and the best tend to win lulW

[Quadox.7834]

12 hours ago, apharma.3741 said:

The stab on initial cast means that the skill goes off and you are very unlikely to be interrupted unless someone is quite literally at pro level back when ESL was a thing (spoiler: no-one is at that level anymore)

Common misconception, people are actually mechanically stronger now than back then.

[apharma.3741]

1 hour ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

now that I read through the skill I think I understand what you mean
is this it ?
1 you create a road ( you and allies gain stab )
2 After ~1,2s delay, road is created and you begin getting pulsing stab ( since road creation takes longer than 1s, there is a small window of no stab )
^ is this what you mean? then technically you are right and its not a " bug " per say, but its still something that should just be changed to cover stab.

BTW Why the kitten does this skill do everything?
why high damage, loads of weakness in aoe with almost 0 cast time?
Rev is played by the best and the best tend to win lulW

 

More or less, that's why I was saying I don't think it is a bug. Perhaps an oversight with the reduction to 1s of stab from previous changes to the skill. Even then I'm OK with the skill having a small window where stab isn't up, skills with little counterplay and so much benefit don't need "fixing" to remove all small periods of vulnerability.

 

What is funny is no-one has mentioned the actual game breaking bugs with this skill at all, like how if you dodge while casting you lose energy, the road doesn't build and it's on CD or that small differences in terrain can have wildly different effects on the skill.

 

@Quadox.7834 Quoting is a mess so I'll just say it here. I don't know anyone that has been playing since HoT that will say they are mchanically better now than they were when they were back then. Certainly I don't know of any top end player that is mechanically as good as they were when tryharding over pro league. There may be some of them out there (Boyce as an example) but they're the exception as most good players I knew stopped trying as they were tired of the low skill high reward and nothing to really try for, especially after the wide spread manipulation.

[Leonidrex.5649]

1 hour ago, Quadox.7834 said:

Common misconception, people are actually mechanically stronger now than back then.

people thinking that players from the past were better are delusional, just looking at the past with pink tinted glasses.
cute.

[Quadox.7834]

41 minutes ago, apharma.3741 said:

 

More or less, that's why I was saying I don't think it is a bug. Perhaps an oversight with the reduction to 1s of stab from previous changes to the skill. Even then I'm OK with the skill having a small window where stab isn't up, skills with little counterplay and so much benefit don't need "fixing" to remove all small periods of vulnerability.

 

What is funny is no-one has mentioned the actual game breaking bugs with this skill at all, like how if you dodge while casting you lose energy, the road doesn't build and it's on CD or that small differences in terrain can have wildly different effects on the skill.

 

@Quadox.7834 Quoting is a mess so I'll just say it here. I don't know anyone that has been playing since HoT that will say they are mchanically better now than they were when they were back then. Certainly I don't know of any top end player that is mechanically as good as they were when tryharding over pro league. There may be some of them out there (Boyce as an example) but they're the exception as most good players I knew stopped trying as they were tired of the low skill high reward and nothing to really try for, especially after the wide spread manipulation.

 

8 minutes ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

people thinking that players from the past were better are delusional, just looking at the past with pink tinted glasses.
cute.

Yeah, you can tell from just watching old VoDs, the further back you go the more clear it is. That said they were prob better in terms of team play.

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

people thinking that players from the past were better are delusional, just looking at the past with pink tinted glasses.
cute.

   Larger PvP population + strong ESL league + big tournaments with real money on stake = higher skill cap for top players. As easy as that. Some old top PvP performers in the core game & HoT didn't adapt that well to the last expansion and newer metas, but I think that overall the average quality of the best 8 teams their and players in each continent was higher in the past. Also, as hapened with Overwatch, a meta in which half of the roster is filled with bunkers lowers the skill demanded to play competitively.

[Leonidrex.5649]

4 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Larger PvP population + strong ESL league + big tournaments with real money on stake = higher skill cap for top players. As easy as that. Some old top PvP performers in the core game & HoT didn't adapt that well to the last expansion and newer metas, but I think that overall the average quality of the best 8 teams their and players in each continent was higher in the past. Also, as hapened with Overwatch, a meta in which half of the roster is filled with bunkers lowers the skill demanded to play competitively.

doesnt matter, people improve over time what used to be "good" is just default now.

[Buran.3796]

1 minute ago, Leonidrex.5649 said:

doesnt matter, people improve over time what used to be "good" is just default now.

   Tell that to Jonathan Ewards; he broke the triple jump record 25 years ago, still has the record and only 6 people were able to surpass the 18 m in this lapse, whereas He did it 13 times in a year. NASA entirely lost the capability to send people to space after retiring the Atlantis and Discovery, relying for a decade in the Soyuz program and now in private aerospace companies. When Federer, Nadal and Jockovich retire, the newcomers will be weaker than those three at their peak for decades, if not generations...  Countles examples. 

[Quadox.7834]

7 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

   Tell that to Jonathan Ewards; he broke the triple jump record 25 years ago, still has the record and only 6 people were able to surpass the 18 m in this lapse, whereas He did it 13 times in a year. NASA entirely lost the capability to send people to space after retiring the Atlantis and Discovery, relying for a decade in the Soyuz program and now in private aerospace companies. When Federer, Nadal and Jockovich retire, the newcomers will be weaker than those three at their peak for decades, if not generations...  Countles examples. 

1. there can be single talents that just happen to be born with the right genetics and upbringing but those are exceptions

2. nasa didn't lose the skills, they have way better technology and science now, just not the funding or interest

3. in gw2, kiting is a pretty good example, back in the days of kiting like royalty on legacy, kiting with jump spots and jukes etc was a rarity, now every fker in plat 2 knows how to do them all.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Quadox.7834

[Buran.3796]

3 minutes ago, Quadox.7834 said:

 

2. nasa didn't lose the skills, they have way better technology and science now, just not the funding or interest

 

 

NASA was reliant in the ULA rockets which used Russian engines (SS-180 or something...), when the US Goverment put pressure to cut the use of those ones ULA tried to make them theirselves and failed entirely. They were also unable to replicate the old Saturn V engines. So they had to start from 0, as Space X or Blue Origin. So for a decade the capability was lost, because the people which crafted the older ones was gone and no one was able to do the older engines with the techniques we have now. History is not a linear path of constant progression. Regression and dead ends happens to.

[Quadox.7834]

15 minutes ago, Buran.3796 said:

NASA was reliant in the ULA rockets which used Russian engines (SS-180 or something...), when the US Goverment put pressure to cut the use of those ones ULA tried to make them theirselves and failed entirely. They were also unable to replicate the old Saturn V engines. So they had to start from 0, as Space X or Blue Origin. So for a decade the capability was lost, because the people which crafted the older ones was gone and no one was able to do the older engines with the techniques we have now. History is not a linear path of constant progression. Regression and dead ends happens to.

Yes they can happen but not in that instance in that way. Take the example of computer keyboards, they regressed in practice from the solid high-quality chucks of steel that IBM made to plastic membrane ones, but the technology/knowledge wasn't lost just the material conditions (the factories shut down etc), it wasn't profitable anymore. Anyway let's stick to gw2.

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Quadox.7834